Parenting Spoiled Children (article)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I respect people and then it goes downhill from there (if necessary).  I had a hard time as a kid knowing where to draw the line though.  I was taught to respect authority.  Not so much in a harsh way, but I think it would have been better to give me permission to question authority sometimes. 

 

I look back and think of stuff some adults have done and wish I could go back in time and say something.  They did rotten things.  I just didn't know. 

 

And again, here I am.  I don't trust people in positions of authority over me such as doctors, etc.  I am suspicious of their intentions.  I assume they don't look out for my best interests.  At least now I am in the position to choose these people carefully or take or leave their advice and recommendations.  As a kid I was not.  I don't miss that.

 

But I don't have magical advice and answers on how to perfectly do this with one's kids. 

 

 

[Murphy101]

Respect is not a synonym for trust.

 

Obedience doesn't have to be blind.

 

Relationships matter.

 

None of these facts contradict or oppose each other.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Respect is not a synonym for trust.

 

Obedience doesn't have to be blind.

 

Relationships matter.

 

None of these facts contradict or oppose each other.

 

But the way in which some kids are taught, they are synonymous. 

[PeacefulChaos]

When obedience comes up on this board it's always an interesting conversation for me to watch.

There often seem to be people who are against the idea of children obeying parents. I have to admit that I don't get it. But maybe obedience means something bigger, more intimidating to these people?

When I say that I expect obedience from my children:

when I step outside and call them in for dinner, I expect them to come in for dinner. I can't imagine why they wouldn't.

When I tell them that they need to clean their rooms today, I expect it to be done. Same with other chores.

When we are out doing things, there may be expectations in place: don't ride too far ahead, dont go past where DH is standing at the waterfall, etc.

The other night the boys went to a baseball game. My family doesn't really like baseball. Link played one season and that was it. So Astro was much less than thrilled about spending the evening at a baseball game. But they (dh and the two boys) had been invited to go and it was obvious that the people who invited them really wanted them to go. So I told Astro, "go and try to have fun. I know you aren't looking forward to it, but this is something that _____ really wants to take you guys to go do, and it's important to him. If you go and you don't like it, you can come home and tell me and dad that. We aren't saying you'll have to go a lot, or even ever again. But tonight I'd like for you to have a good attitude and try to have fun.' He said ok, never said another thing about it, had a great time, and wants to go again next week.

We have a patch of 'woods' (not really) behind our house with poison ivy in them. Astro and I aren't allergic to it, but Link is - it's not the worst reaction I've seen, but he's pretty sensitive to it. We have a rule that they aren't supposed to go in them. They did and Link had poison ivy to prove it. :P He dealt with the natural consequences of it and figured he would have rather obeyed us in the beginning. :lol:

 

None of the things I consider to be obedience are threats - you do this because I said so, or else! I don't consider obedience to be unfair. My kids are well aware that they don't have to do anything an adult tells them to; expecting obedience in regular things at home doesn't equal unquestioning, gullible children who believe all adults are right.

 

So I guess I always wonder what others mean by obedience. Like, I can't understand why having expectations of behavior in children is a bad thing, or why setting boundaries is, either.

Are people imagining something super strict, where life is run like a boot camp and the kids are expected to be seen and not heard except for 'sir! Yes sir!' Or something?

Because I know that for me... And I'll venture to guess the same for 90% of the rest of the general population who talks about obedience in their kids... It's not like that. It's not some big deal; it's not stifling; we don't control our children's lives. It's just a real life thing that really isn't even a blip on the radar for us OR for our children.

 

When it comes to strong willed and such, I think of it the way I think of personalities. All the personality tests that exist out there, they aren't there for us (general) to pigeon hole ourselves and say 'I'm a ____ so I don't do that' or 'I'm a ____ so I do this' as an excuse. I think the point of knowing our personalities is knowing our natural strengths and weaknesses and understanding our innate reactions to things, so that we can utilize our strengths appropriately and work on our weaknesses to be better people.

 

Fwiw, I don't think the berry picking thing is a big deal. I'm imagining how something like this could happen in my house: "mom can you make some blackberry cobbler?" "If you go pick the blackberries I will." The end. I don't see what's so crazy about that... :lol:

[SparklyUnicorn]

Obedience makes me think of training dogs.

 

I hate that word. 

 

 

[PeacefulChaos]

Ah, right, the respect thing!!

 

I know that I'm in the minority because I believe in being respectful towards everyone. Homeless on the street, drunk staggering down the road, people with opposing opinions, etc. I think human beings in general deserve my respect.

 

Respect can, however, be lost.

 

Respect never needs to be earned.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Ah, right, the respect thing!!

 

I know that I'm in the minority because I believe in being respectful towards everyone. Homeless on the street, drunk staggering down the road, people with opposing opinions, etc. I think human beings in general deserve my respect.

 

Respect can, however, be lost.

 

Respect never needs to be earned.

 

I don't think you are in the minority.  Although I more hope not. LOL

[Scarlett]

Obedience makes me think of training dogs.

 

I hate that word.

What word do you use?

[SparklyUnicorn]

What word do you use?

 

Not that one.

 

I'll have to think about it.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Ok thought of it.

 

Being decent human beings?

 

Something more along those lines. 

 

[PeacefulChaos]

Perhaps it's a semantics thing then?

 

I have no negative associations with the word.

[SKL]

I use "obedience" as well as "respect."  If I tell my kid to boil some water and she instead goes and reads a book (like just happened yesterday), that is disobedience AND it's disrespecting me.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a kid to either do what I say, or get clearance from me to do something else instead.  If she wants to discuss the whys and wherefores or negotiate etc., that is usually fine.

[Scarlett]

Ok thought of it.

 

Being decent human beings?

 

Something more along those lines.

Interesting. My son is not very compliant. He always argues about everything. Persuades is the word he prefers. He always knows more, has a better reason, etc. the one thing that continues to work for me is when I get enough of his persuasion I will say, "you are not being obedient".

 

So I like the word.

 

Btw, I have had more than one person say my son is spoiled.....onlies get that a lot I think.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Interesting. My son is not very compliant. He always argues about everything. Persuades is the word he prefers. He always knows more, has a better reason, etc. the one thing that continues to work for me is when I get enough of his persuasion I will say, "you are not being obedient".

 

So I like the word.

 

Btw, I have had more than one person say my son is spoiled.....onlies get that a lot I think.

 

Yes but then I also met a woman who says she spanks her kid when he is not obedient.  Like a dog.  Kid was little at the time.  If he woke up crying in the middle of the night that was not obedience so she spanked him because she is the boss.

These are the kinds of people I meet who use that word.  Most people I know do not actually use that word though.

So I can't help but think of that.

[regentrude]

When obedience comes up on this board it's always an interesting conversation for me to watch.

There often seem to be people who are against the idea of children obeying parents. I have to admit that I don't get it. But maybe obedience means something bigger, more intimidating to these people?

When I say that I expect obedience from my children:

when I step outside and call them in for dinner, I expect them to come in for dinner. I can't imagine why they wouldn't.

When I tell them that they need to clean their rooms today, I expect it to be done. Same with other chores.

When we are out doing things, there may be expectations in place: don't ride too far ahead, dont go past where DH is standing at the waterfall, etc.

...

So I guess I always wonder what others mean by obedience. Like, I can't understand why having expectations of behavior in children is a bad thing, or why setting boundaries is, either.

Are people imagining something super strict, where life is run like a boot camp and the kids are expected to be seen and not heard except for 'sir! Yes sir!' Or something?

 

I don't like the word "obedience". It suggests unquestioning accepting of a command just because I am "in power", and this I do not want. I want the kids to do a certain thing for a good reason, and I will explain the reason. If I don't have a reason, if it's just "because I am the parent and know best", I do not expect cooperation.

 

To take your examples:

When I call my kids, I would like them to come, too, but they may also tell me if and why they cannot come right this minute. If they are in the middle of something, I do not force them to drop everything.

When I tell them they need to clean their rooms, I will give them a time frame and negotiate a convenient time with them; I will not order that it has to happen today, unless there is a good reason for it (if I were to discover a bug infestation, oh yes, then  everybody would drop what they are doing and clean right.now.)

 

There are few situations when we require unquestioning obedience, and we have discussed this beforehand: driving and mountaineering. When the teen learns to drive, a sudden command from dad must be obeyed immediately, because it is to prevent a dangerous situation. The details of the situation can be discussed in retrospect, but first the teen must do as he is told. When we are climbing in the mountains, the situation is similar. We never had any issue getting the kids to cooperate, because we discussed beforehand why these are special situations.

In all other situations, we found much better cooperation if the kids could understand the reasons behind a request. To me, "obedience" suggests "do as you are told and don't question my orders". This is not how we run things in our family.

Having grown up in an authoritarian regime probably makes us even more sensitive about this.

 

ETA: I see no connection between obedience and respect. I can respect a person without obeying his every command, and I can obey a person without respecting him (btdt plenty)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I used to get upset when people didn't come running to dinner.  I wasn't even really sure why. I guess I felt like gee I made this dinner and you are just dragging your feet to eat it.  But then I thought, well maybe they just don't really know because they aren't in that position.  So I told them how it makes me feel.  So they do it much less frequently.  I didn't have to scream, punish, or "obediate" them.  And if they don't come, I sit down and enjoy my food.

 

 

[regentrude]

I used to get upset when people didn't come running to dinner.  I wasn't even really sure why. I guess I felt like gee I made this dinner and you are just dragging your feet to eat it.  But then I thought, well maybe they just don't really know because they aren't in that position.  So I told them how it makes me feel.  So they do it much less frequently.  I didn't have to scream, punish, or "obediate" them.  And if they don't come, I sit down and enjoy my food.

 

Same here. I usually discuss what time everybody wants to eat and give advance notice, so they know it is coming. Which works quite well. Sometimes DS is in the middle of something anyway, and he tells us to go ahead and start. That's fine. We eat plenty of meals together; I prefer meals to be peaceful. They are aware that it is rude to ignore meals somebody has prepared for them, but we are not rigid about it - sometimes things do take longer than planned.

[SKL]

Yes but then I also met a woman who says she spanks her kid when he is not obedient.  Like a dog.  Kid was little at the time.  If he woke up crying in the middle of the night that was not obedience so she spanked him because she is the boss.

These are the kinds of people I meet who use that word.  Most people I know do not actually use that word though.

So I can't help but think of that.

 

I don't use the word in connection with spanking.  For me it is more of a wake-up call:  hey, you are crossing a line here.  My kids respond well to it.  They don't want to be disobedient, they just want to do what they want to do.  :P

 

[Scarlett]

I don't like the word "obedience". It suggests unquestioning accepting of a command just because I am "in power", and this I do not want. I want the kids to do a certain thing for a good reason, and I will explain the reason. If I don't have a reason, if it's just "because I am the parent and know best", I do not expect cooperation.

 

To take your examples:

When I call my kids, I would like them to come, too, but they may also tell me if and why they cannot come right this minute. If they are in the middle of something, I do not force them to drop everything.

When I tell them they need to clean their rooms, I will give them a time frame and negotiate a convenient time with them; I will not order that it has to happen today, unless there is a good reason for it (if I were to discover a bug infestation, oh yes, then  everybody would drop what they are doing and clean right.now.)

 

There are few situations when we require unquestioning obedience, and we have discussed this beforehand: driving and mountaineering. When the teen learns to drive, a sudden command from dad must be obeyed immediately, because it is to prevent a dangerous situation. The details of the situation can be discussed in retrospect, but first the teen must do as he is told. When we are climbing in the mountains, the situation is similar. We never had any issue getting the kids to cooperate, because we discussed beforehand why these are special situations.

In all other situations, we found much better cooperation if the kids could understand the reasons behind a request. To me, "obedience" suggests "do as you are told and don't question my orders". This is not how we run things in our family.

Having grown up in an authoritarian regime probably makes us even more sensitive about this.

 

ETA: I see no connection between obedience and respect. I can respect a person without obeying his every command, and I can obey a person without respecting him (btdt plenty)

 

 

I used to think this plan sounded so reasonable. And then I got a child now teen who will delay indefinitely.  And letting him know the reasons behind the request?  I can't think of why my very bright 15 year old would need an explanation for 'take your laundry to the laundry room'.  I guess I could have explained to him that his clothes are dirty and I have this awesome machine that will clean them but we FIRST have to put the clothes in the machine.  But hey I guess I expected by age 15 he knows that.  

[PeacefulChaos]

To take your examples:

When I call my kids, I would like them to come, too, but they may also tell me if and why they cannot come right this minute. If they are in the middle of something, I do not force them to drop everything.

When I tell them they need to clean their rooms, I will give them a time frame and negotiate a convenient time with them; I will not order that it has to happen today, unless there is a good reason for it (if I were to discover a bug infestation, oh yes, then everybody would drop what they are doing and clean right.now.)

 

There are few situations when we require unquestioning obedience, and we have discussed this beforehand: driving and mountaineering. When the teen learns to drive, a sudden command from dad must be obeyed immediately, because it is to prevent a dangerous situation. The details of the situation can be discussed in retrospect, but first the teen must do as he is told. When we are climbing in the mountains, the situation is similar. We never had any issue getting the kids to cooperate, because we discussed beforehand why these are special situations.

In all other situations, we found much better cooperation if the kids could understand the reasons behind a request. To me, "obedience" suggests "do as you are told and don't question my orders". This is not how we run things in our family.

Having grown up in an authoritarian regime probably makes us even more sensitive about this.

 

ETA: I see no connection between obedience and respect. I can respect a person without obeying his every command, and I can obey a person without respecting him (btdt plenty)

I think you and I are saying the same thing. A 'time for dinner' isn't an immediate 'drop everything and come running'. I'm not sure if you thought I was saying it was. I usually tell them as I'm finishing so they have a few minutes. Honestly, my kids love to eat lol so this is never anything that has gotten much thought or attention... However, I think it would be unreasonable for me to walk out and say 'dinner time' and think they could immediately turn and follow me in like little robots. I think that's weird. :D when I say it, though, they do usually start to wrap up whatever they're doing or run around and grab anything they'd taken out to put it away (all of their own volition).

But like I said, they like to eat, or they like dinner time, or whatever else it may be, so that may not be an excellent example. ;)

On the room, for our family right now, a day gives them plenty of opportunity. However, we are pretty laid back. We don't really have any outside plans most days, so for us it's reasonable, especially in the summer, with 12+ hours of unscheduled free time per day, to say 'get, sometime today, take the time to pick up the toys in your room.' If we were busier, it would be different. On days when cleaning would knock out any free time they'd have, I don't ask for cleaning bc free time is more important, IMO.

 

And like I said, I have no negative connotations with the word obedience. Perhaps because both dh and I were raised in families where it wasn't an authoritarian, unquestioning thing, where we knew without a doubt it was about our best interests and we were always treated with consideration and love. That doesn't mean I always liked everything my gma told me - a party I wanted to attend my freshman year of high school comes to mind - but I knew why she didn't want me to go, and very soon afterwards I was relieved that she 'made me stay home'. ;) and bc dh and I grew up in households like this, with parents like this, maybe we don't have the negative reaction to the word obedience that some others do.

I never really thought about the word being used for training dogs. But even my dog gets praised for following commands and not punished for not. (Spanking a dog? Absurd...) so while I think raising children is much different than training a dog (MUCH!) I still don't feel weird about the word being used for both. They don't mean the same thing - nowhere near - but yeah. Idk.

[SKL]

For me I need kids to come when called because we have a tight schedule.  When they go play outside, we discuss in advance how much time they have.  So then I expect them to abide by that.

[regentrude]

For me I need kids to come when called because we have a tight schedule.  When they go play outside, we discuss in advance how much time they have.  So then I expect them to abide by that.

 

Perfectly reasonable to me. If we need to leave to be some place at a certain time, we need to adhere to a schedule. But to me that is different than obeying merely because I say so.

[regentrude]

  I can't think of why my very bright 15 year old would need an explanation for 'take your laundry to the laundry room'.  I guess I could have explained to him that his clothes are dirty and I have this awesome machine that will clean them but we FIRST have to put the clothes in the machine.  But hey I guess I expected by age 15 he knows that.  

 

My explanation would be : "I need you to bring me your dirty clothes in the next five minutes because I am about to start a load of laundry. " (In other words, I give the explanation for the request of "now", not for "laundry" per se.)

 

Nuff said. If it's not in the laundry, it can't be washed until either I have time to do another load or teen needs item and does it himself. Either works.

 

 

[Murphy101]

Obedience makes me think of training dogs.

 

I hate that word.

If only my kids were has obedient trained as my dogs.

[Murphy101]

My explanation would be : "I need you to bring me your dirty clothes in the next five minutes because I am about to start a load of laundry. " (In other words, I give the explanation for the request of "now", not for "laundry" per se.)

 

Nuff said. If it's not in the laundry, it can't be washed until either I have time to do another load or teen needs item and does it himself. Either works.

And if kid doesn't do either and it's 20 minutes until you have to be somewhere and clean clothes are no where to be found?

 

All of this presumes the kid cares about your schedule or the laundry.

 

If they don't, your reason that YOU have a schedule to keep to doesn't much matter to them.

Same goes for the laundry.

 

I don't think those kids are bad kids. I think some people are very inwards/self focused and take a lot more effort to grow out of it. Or be dragged out of it by their exasperated parents. lol

[creekland]

This has been sort of an interesting thread to read.

 

All I can add is that if someone - even now - tells me to do something without a why to it there's a very high likelihood it isn't getting done.

 

I don't expect anything different from anyone else.

 

Teams I'll work with/in.  Dictatorships I won't.

 

I rarely have any issues subbing in the local public high school where I work.  Kids sure seem to appreciate it.  Even notoriously "bad" kids.  The "worth his weight in gold" guy who tries his best to help those kids out appreciates it too.

[JumpyTheFrog]

But to me that is different than obeying merely because I say so.

 

This comment makes me wonder if those of your who don't like the word "obedient" think those of us who use it just like to make up arbitrary rules to make our kids obey. Just because I say I want my kids to obey doesn't mean I don't have a good reason. I may not feel like explaining to them the ten reasons why they should just do something.

 

Tigger, for example, tends to use lengthy explanations as a reason to argue endlessly and get himself worked up. With him, if his attitude at a particular time is anything less than cheerful, any reason we give is likely to be used against us to draw us into an argument. It's better to avoid the "lawyering" or trench warfare by saying as little as possible.

 

How many times per day should I have to explain why he needs to come back and put his dirty dishes in the sink, or wipe up the ice cream blobs on the floor, or wipe his pee off the toilet seat? These things should be self evident. So when I say I want him to "obey," I don't mean I want a mindless drone. I mean I want him to do what a thoughtful, respectful person would do without giving anyone a hard time about it.

 

In any case, it seems that the word itself has some negative connotations of harsh parenting for some people that it doesn't for others.

[JumpyTheFrog]

All of this presumes the kid cares about your schedule or the laundry.

 

...

I don't think those kids are bad kids. I think some people are very inwards/self focused and take a lot more effort to grow out of it. Or be dragged out of it by their exasperated parents. lol

 

Yes, some kids are very oblivious. I joke about my boys being "slobnadoes" because a trail of destruction and messes follows them around. Whenever anyone says housework doesn't take much time I find myself thinking that their kids must not be slobnadoes. I have to have them clean the playroom and their room twice a day to keep them in decent condition because it never occurs to them to put anything back when they are done using it. So when people say they don't have their kids do chores, I imagine drowning in a mess of toys, laundry, crumbs, and dirty dishes if I cut up the chore chart.

 

I'm hoping that after another ten years of being on their case about cleaning up after themselves they might get in the habit of cleaning up their messes without being told. Until then, I have to be their brain about the issue.

[Murphy101]

You cannot reason with Bartleby. :)

 

I so liked Bartleby in middle school. My teacher and I had quite an argument about whether he was a lazy depressed jerk or just some guy who didn't care about meeting their expectations. And I got an F because I refused to write an essay in the topic. She was so ticked bc I obviously knew the material. I just preferred not to write the paper. lol

[Jean in Newcastle]

I focused much more on obedience when my kids were toddlers and preschoolers.  I'm not talking blanket training or any of that stuff.  But if they started to pull the cat's tail, I wanted them to stop as soon as I said "No!" or "Stop!"  If they were reaching out to a hot stove, I wanted them to stop as soon as I said "No touch!" or "Hot!"  Of course I would also move the child away from the danger and would distract them but my kids often tried to touch that kitty's tail over and over again and would remember it no matter how much I would try to distract them with something else.  And I would do the "command", removal and distraction over and over again.  So when they were really young, yes, it was much like dog training.  It was firm, patient and consistent.  

 

As my kids grew older, there were a lot more explanations.  And there was learning how and when to negotiate.  But even my  18 year old will just obey me if I ask him to put his dishes in the dishwasher and won't say "no" or "how come" or anything else because he trusts that I don't ask him to do things just for the heck of it and plus, he's intelligent enough to know why without asking.  If he started to argue with me about something like that I would probably stop and look at him like he had two heads because I would be wondering if something had happened to him.  That said, he might say, "Sure, I'll do it as soon as I get this physics problem done." and I have no problem with that.  If for some reason that wouldn't work (can't think why it wouldn't but let's just suppose the dishes have to be put in at a certain time) then I would just say, "I need it done right away this time."  and he would accept that.  If I was in a tearing hurry I might not be able to explain why right then but would explain later when I had a moment.  

 

I "obey" a lot of laws and rules and experts each and every day.  If it is a law, I suppose I could ignore it but it would be at the peril of getting a fine or getting arrested.  If I disobey a rule at the library, I wouldn't be arrested (unless it was bad enough to call the police) but I might be asked to leave the premises.  Experts (like doctors) are people that I choose go to specifically for their expertise.  It would be stupid of me to ignore their advice that I'm paying them for.  (Though I have sought second opinions or have changed doctors if I felt like they were not really good at their job.)  I "obey" many suggestions made for me by friends and family and even strangers:  "Can you put out the light as you leave?"  "Grab that tipping pan!"  90% of them have been appropriate ones or at least harmless ones.  I might not really understand why they have to have the red potholder instead of the green one but if they specify red, I'm going to grab it for them without argument.  I mean, why not?  

 

I've only had inappropriate commands given to me a few times.  Like the doctor who asked me to disrobe for a vaginal exam when I came in with an earache.  I waited until he went out of the room so that I could supposedly disrobe, grabbed my purse and ran out of that room.  I grabbed the first medical person I saw and explained why I was leaving.  And I reported the situation to the medical director (who was a class A jerk and tried to tell me that the doctor was Hispanic and it was probably a language problem.  It 100% wasn't.)  

[creekland]

I'm hoping that after another ten years of being on their case about cleaning up after themselves they might get in the habit of cleaning up their messes without being told. Until then, I have to be their brain about the issue.

 

I wouldn't hold my breath.  Chances are their views of what they like is merely different than yours.  Our kids are not clones of us and cleanliness is a YMMV deal.

 

Once they move out they'll become who they want to be, cleanliness and all.  They may modify what they like as they learn more on their own, of course.

 

Hubby came from a "squeaky clean" home where they weren't allowed to have one thing out of place.  He enjoys our more relaxed lifestyle now a ton!

 

I came from what could have been a Hoarder's episode house.  I like our current way of living too.  We wouldn't make it on the show, but we also wouldn't make it into Better Homes and Gardens.

 

Whether a room is clean or not - esp their bedrooms - is just not that big of a deal.

 

If they want their clothes clean, they'll get them in the laundry (and I tell them when I'm doing it).  If not, fine.  Their problem.

[PeacefulChaos]

Laundry is done 100% on their timing.

For Pink, it means when she has put on her last pair of clean underwear. 😂

For the boys, I don't even know. I just do laundry as it appears in the laundry room... I choose not to think about how long it's all been worn. 😂😂😅

[creekland]

I "obey" a lot of laws and rules and experts each and every day.  If it is a law, I suppose I could ignore it but it would be at the peril of getting a fine or getting arrested.  If I disobey a rule at the library, I wouldn't be arrested (unless it was bad enough to call the police) but I might be asked to leave the premises.  Experts (like doctors) are people that I choose go to specifically for their expertise.  It would be stupid of me to ignore their advice that I'm paying them for.  (Though I have sought second opinions or have changed doctors if I felt like they were not really good at their job.)  I "obey" many suggestions made for me by friends and family and even strangers:  "Can you put out the light as you leave?"  "Grab that tipping pan!"  90% of them have been appropriate ones or at least harmless ones.  I might not really understand why they have to have the red potholder instead of the green one but if they specify red, I'm going to grab it for them without argument.  I mean, why not?  

  

 

But see, many rules and laws make sense.

 

Don't steal.  Stop at stop signs.  Pay taxes.  Return library books.

 

Those of us who are adults might have needed them explained at some point in time, but the explanation doesn't change, we agree with it, and it's a done deal.  Life is too short to have to expend energy thinking these things through again and again.

 

When rules don't make sense, many of us fudge them a little - like speed limits.  ;)

 

When we're with friends, it's common friendship to hand them the red potholder if they ask, so who wouldn't?

 

But any friend, doctor, or stranger coming up to me, handing me a cup, and saying "drink this" without letting me know what it is sure isn't getting compliance.  I'd even be asking my mom what it is first.  None would get compliance with telling me to be at _____ at x time either if I didn't know why.

 

And the nurse who told me to take it easy (meal-wise) as I left after carpal tunnel surgery gave me the idea to stop by Hardees for a burger and fries instead.  It tasted good - no problems!  ;)  I wouldn't have thought of it on my own... I'd have probably gone home and had something more basic instead.

 

It's a mindset.  It's honestly not something we sit and ponder through when making spur of the moment decisions.

 

I understand that most don't get it - hence the explanation.

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

But any friend, doctor, or stranger coming up to me, handing me a cup, and saying "drink this" without letting me know what it is sure isn't getting compliance.  I'd even be asking my mom what it is first.  None would get compliance with telling me to be at _____ at x time either if I didn't know why.

 

And the nurse who told me to take it easy (meal-wise) as I left after carpal tunnel surgery gave me the idea to stop by Hardees for a burger and fries instead.  It tasted good - no problems!   ;)  I wouldn't have thought of it on my own... I'd have probably gone home and had something more basic instead.

 

It's a mindset.  It's honestly not something we sit and ponder through when making spur of the moment decisions.

 

I understand that most don't get it - hence the explanation.

I've never ever had anyone telling me something like the "drink this" example.  Of course I would ask them what it is.  It would be stupid and irresponsible of me to not do that.  I don't see that as being non-compliant.  Being non-compliant would be simply saying no to drinking it even if I knew what it was and agreed that I needed it.  That would be equally stupid and irresponsible of me though it would be my right.

 

A month ago I started a thread on this board about not filling in a form giving my new doctor carte blanche over anything that came up.  I asked for clarification on the form.  Was given it.  (The doctor did not see it as a problem because in his mind he would never ask me to do anything bad.)  I still did not sign the form and the doctor was fine with that.

 

The food example had a reason.  Some people have stomach and bowel upset after surgery.  So while it was an instruction it had consequences (should it apply to you) that were not life threatening.  If however, the nurse handed you some narcotics and told you not to drink with them and you headed out to the bar, then you would be very foolish and would have very dire consequences.  Of course in your case, you were not in the "some people" part of the venn diagram regarding food after surgery and were just fine.  

[Pawz4me]

Ah, right, the respect thing!!

 

I know that I'm in the minority because I believe in being respectful towards everyone. Homeless on the street, drunk staggering down the road, people with opposing opinions, etc. I think human beings in general deserve my respect.

 

Respect can, however, be lost.

 

Respect never needs to be earned.

 

For me this is a semantics issue.

 

What you mean by "respect" is what I would mean by "polite."

 

Everyone deserves to be treated politely.

 

Respect is a totally different thing to me.  And yes, it's something I only give once it's earned.

[SKL]

Hmm.  Interesting that some people say people deserve respect until proven otherwise, while others say respect has to be earned.

 

I am in the first camp.  It can take a long time to get to know someone well enough to really judge them.  But I believe most people are basically good.  It doesn't cost me anything to assume the best of everyone at first.

 

That doesn't mean I am not skeptical, LOL.  Just because I respect a person doesn't mean I will take their advice.  :P

[myfunnybunch]

I used to think this plan sounded so reasonable. And then I got a child now teen who will delay indefinitely.  And letting him know the reasons behind the request?  I can't think of why my very bright 15 year old would need an explanation for 'take your laundry to the laundry room'.  I guess I could have explained to him that his clothes are dirty and I have this awesome machine that will clean them but we FIRST have to put the clothes in the machine.  But hey I guess I expected by age 15 he knows that.  

 

I say that. I also say things like, "Gee. Too bad someone hasn't invented a handy machine that will wash the dishes for you, because then all you'd have to do is put dishes in it and push a button. Wouldn't that be cool?"

 

My teen usually laughs and gets up off his hind end and takes his clothes down to the washer. Or puts his dishes in the dishwasher, or walks all the way out to the mailbox to get the mail, or whatever.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Hmm.  Interesting that some people say people deserve respect until proven otherwise, while others say respect has to be earned.

 

I am in the first camp.  It can take a long time to get to know someone well enough to really judge them.  But I believe most people are basically good.  It doesn't cost me anything to assume the best of everyone at first.

 

That doesn't mean I am not skeptical, LOL.  Just because I respect a person doesn't mean I will take their advice.  :p

 

I think I say both.  The first is more politeness and consideration and not going around acting like everything is all about me.  But the second type is about time and experience getting to know someone and trusting them because they have not given me reason not to trust them.

[Lady Florida.]

I've heard more than one parent say their kids willingly scoop poop to ride a horse.  LOL

 

My mother was one who did. She said once my exasperated grandfather* told her if she got killed falling off a horse she better not come running to him. :D

 

*Contrary to the romanticized past, not everyone in the early 20th century was familiar with farm life. Both sets of my grandparents were born and raised in a city, the above grandfather was from Manhattan's Little Italy.

 

My explanation would be : "I need you to bring me your dirty clothes in the next five minutes because I am about to start a load of laundry. " (In other words, I give the explanation for the request of "now", not for "laundry" per se.)

 

Nuff said. If it's not in the laundry, it can't be washed until either I have time to do another load or teen needs item and does it himself. Either works.

 

:iagree: I let mine know the night before I plan to do laundry that if he wants me to do it, he should have his hamper out in the hall in the morning (I get up earlier than he does). That gives him a why. If it's not out there, he does it himself. I only do it because with just 3 of us it makes economic sense to do all laundry together (less water, less electricity).

 

And if kid doesn't do either and it's 20 minutes until you have to be somewhere and clean clothes are no where to be found?

 

All of this presumes the kid cares about your schedule or the laundry.

 

If they don't, your reason that YOU have a schedule to keep to doesn't much matter to them.

Same goes for the laundry.

 

 

One option that both regentrude and I use, is they do their own laundry.

 

Beyond that, he either doesn't go or he deals with the embarrassment of wearing dirty clothes. If that doesn't embarrass him yet, fine. Eventually it will. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I would think most 18 year olds wouldn't ask "how come" when asked to empty the dishwasher.  So I'm not sure what the "even they will obey me thing is all about with that comment". I think they get the concept.  But if a younger kid asks, that fair.  It might annoy me sometimes, but sure they may not get it or they are not quite mature enough yet.

 

 

[myfunnybunch]

I do expect the kids to do what I ask most of the time, but I prefer to think of it was cooperation. (ETA: I see others use this word/idea also. :)  )We're all on the same team, Team Family. I'm the leader of the team (in many circumstances) so I'm responsible for coordinating things, and the kids are responsible for either going along with it by doing their part or for taking on coordinating themselves, 'cause hey!, I'd love to pass over the crown. (I say that too, sometimes.) And I try to take their development and wishes into account when it comes to what I expect, so that the cooperation works both ways instead of being a softer way to say that they have to do what I say.

 

A timely example:

I took my kids blueberry picking this morning. I'm making a pie. Or maybe a cobbler or something. Even though I picked all of the berries, everyone can have dessert because I don't mind. (That just how *my* family works, btw, not a pointed comment on anyone else's choices. Just a different family style.) This actually ties into the whole obedience discussion, because ds12 is going through a particularly resistant patch right now. I told him we were going picking, he said "meuuuhhh" or some such 12 y.o. thing. I could've used his help but I didn't feel like going toe-to-toe with him, so (after making a couple jokes about preteens and zombie noises) I told him he could do math and reading on a blanket or help me pick. He chose not to pick. BUT he was super helpful, uncharacteristically so, when I was done picking. He carried my berries, fetched boxes, put everything in the car, rinsed the berry buckets for the berry guy, helped carry things into the house when we got home. And he chose to do those things without being asked. Probably because of my totally awesome parenting. I rock. Or maybe because even though he's especially 12 right now, he's a mostly pleasant person who knows the right thing to do and will choose to do it most of the time.

[creekland]

I've never ever had anyone telling me something like the "drink this" example.  Of course I would ask them what it is.  It would be stupid and irresponsible of me to not do that.  I don't see that as being non-compliant.  Being non-compliant would be simply saying no to drinking it even if I knew what it was and agreed that I needed it.  That would be equally stupid and irresponsible of me though it would be my right.

 

...

 

The food example had a reason.  Some people have stomach and bowel upset after surgery.  So while it was an instruction it had consequences (should it apply to you) that were not life threatening.  If however, the nurse handed you some narcotics and told you not to drink with them and you headed out to the bar, then you would be very foolish and would have very dire consequences.  Of course in your case, you were not in the "some people" part of the venn diagram regarding food after surgery and were just fine.  

 

The "drink this" example came from TV/movies.  I always catch it when I see it because it amazes me how often it's written in and the characters do it.  I bet it is common in real life too - maybe not from a stranger, but from a friend, family member, or someone like a doctor.

 

I fully get the food stuff.  It was just written as a real example of the way the few of us with my mindset work.  I'd already given in a ton to instructions and orders, etc, because I chose to have the surgery done and doing what one is supposed to do is part of that choice.  Mentally I prepared for that ahead of time.  It's how I have to do things (and why those similar to me suggest that everyone give their kids some time to process things).

 

However, it's a strain on the brain to do it even when I choose it.  Therefore, as soon as it gets an opportunity, my brain is naturally going back to "normal" and "normal" for me is to resist orders, doing the exact opposite of what is ordered.  Hubby even knows me well enough by now to predict my reaction.   ;)

 

I knew at that point that any risk I was taking was purely mine and I was ok with it, but even so, had it not been part of the orders I probably wouldn't have come up with doing the opposite on my own.  My natural instinct is "no way" even as an adult.  My laps around the sun have taught me how to overcome that WHEN I have time to process things.  It still doesn't do that instinctively though - ever.  It doesn't really matter that in hindsight I think it probably should have.

 

Very literally, I'd have been one who died in oppressive regimes or families.  Even now, if some group "overtook" us (family, classroom, country) odds aren't good that I'll make it if it requires following their orders.  OTOH, I scored highest in my class in the AF for figuring out how to safely get out of problem situations.  I almost even solved one that they said no one had ever solved. (time limit)  Giving in to the enemy wasn't ever part of my plan.  Neither was coloring within the lines.

 

I'm not sharing to brag.  I'm sharing to try to help people with normal mindsets understand some of the rest of us.  The reason I can get along with almost any teen (not on drugs) is because I can understand their mindset.  Ditto that with some parents when hubby was coaching soccer.  We were the only team without "parent issues."  Guess who worked the sidelines.   ;)

 

I say that. I also say things like, "Gee. Too bad someone hasn't invented a handy machine that will wash the dishes for you, because then all you'd have to do is put dishes in it and push a button. Wouldn't that be cool?"

 

My teen usually laughs and gets up off his hind end and takes his clothes down to the washer. Or puts his dishes in the dishwasher, or walks all the way out to the mailbox to get the mail, or whatever.

 

Humor breaks a ton of ice.  I use it often.  Very often.  It's the #1 tool in my mental toolkit.

 

Ordering arms folks.  Humor disarms.

[luuknam]

The "drink this" example came from TV/movies.  I always catch it when I see it because it amazes me how often it's written in and the characters do it.  I bet it is common in real life too - maybe not from a stranger, but from a friend, family member, or someone like a doctor.

 

I don't really get the big problem though. If my wife said "drink this", I probably would smell it first and/or ask what it is, but realistically, if she wanted to poison me or w/e, that plan wouldn't be dependent on getting me to drink some mystery beverage unquestioningly.

[8circles]

When I hear "obey" I think of ordering or commanding. I don't want to do that. I ask them to help me/the family/thier siblings/their dad with something. I am willing to explain why if there's time. I don't often have to repeat explanations. They sometimes choose to not fulfill my request. There are sometimes natural consequences, sometimes not. They have more often than not come to understand why certain things are important.

[Catwoman]

I used to think this plan sounded so reasonable. And then I got a child now teen who will delay indefinitely. And letting him know the reasons behind the request? I can't think of why my very bright 15 year old would need an explanation for 'take your laundry to the laundry room'. I guess I could have explained to him that his clothes are dirty and I have this awesome machine that will clean them but we FIRST have to put the clothes in the machine. But hey I guess I expected by age 15 he knows that.

Do we have the same 15yo son? ;)

[Laura Corin]

When obedience comes up on this board it's always an interesting conversation for me to watch.

There often seem to be people who are against the idea of children obeying parents. I have to admit that I don't get it. But maybe obedience means something bigger, more intimidating to these people?

 

 

It often comes up in terms of 'first time obedience', which I don't teach.  

 

Hobbes, please tidy your room.

Okay, but can I finish this chapter?

Sure, why don't you set yourself a reminder?

Okay

 

or

 

Hobbes, please set the table for supper

Okay, but can I finish this chapter?

Not this time - the fish is almost ready

Okay

 

As opposed to:

Hobbes, please tidy your room

Yes, ma'am.

 

I teach the former.

[creekland]

I don't really get the big problem though. If my wife said "drink this", I probably would smell it first and/or ask what it is, but realistically, if she wanted to poison me or w/e, that plan wouldn't be dependent on getting me to drink some mystery beverage unquestioningly.

 

It's not fear - not at all.  Just have the same drink on the table when we sit down to eat and there'd be no problem.  I'd probably still be curious as to what it is if it's not obvious, but I'd probably ask after tasting it.

 

It's the order the brain resists - quite naturally - even as a middle aged adult.

 

As an adult I've learned to recognize and deal with some of these things, but on impulse, unless I've prepared myself ahead of time to expect situations it doesn't happen.  Even when I have prepared myself ahead of time to expect situations it still sometimes doesn't happen.

 

My type of mindset is quick to think of things when it's unscripted, unexpected problems, but not to follow "out of the blue" orders.  The first thing that comes to mind with those is "no."

 

Word choice can make all the difference.

 

"I've found a new drink, do you want to try some?" would not set off anything.  It would match the teamwork aspect of what I can easily work with.  I may or may not want some.  I don't have to know what it is.  

 

"Drink this" is the problem.  It's an unquestionable order.  No.  Even as an adult - no.  At this age I might be able to overcome it for someone I know quite well and give a mental pass to, but it's unlikely.

 

 

I like this post, and agree with a lot of it. I recognize the part about not following orders as an adult as well. I act in accordance with the law when I believe that law to be fair and just. If I don't believe the law to be fair and just, I act in accordance with the law if the consequences of not following it would be worse than the consequences of simply following it. I am prepared to break the law if I believe the law to be unjust and I believe there is a good reason for breaking it. (For instance, I don't drive, but if I did and disagreed with the speed limit, there's still no good reason to go over it. If I believe putting my kids in public school would be detrimental for specific reasons but homeschooling is not actually legal, yeah, I may be willing to break the law. Not speaking from personal experience, or anything :D.)

 

...

 

My children are my equals, in pretty much the same way that my colleagues, whose boss I currently am, are my equals, and in pretty much the same way that my elected representatives or my boss are my equals. It's just that everyone comes to life with different experiences and talents, and different needs. Receiving mentoring from someone more experienced than you does not impact your status as a human being.

 

I seriously don't think much of laws or rules, but when they make sense (to me) they are easy to follow and simply aren't needed.  Most of them are that way.  I have my own, above and beyond anything legal - my own "code of conduct" or whatever one would want to call it.  Tipping and other such things fall under that.

 

If laws or rules don't make sense I have no mental issues with not following them.  I am smart enough not to get caught.   ;)  I got away with a ton in my teens and in the AF.

 

As I've matured more I've pared down my "what bothers me" list considerably and will put up with more rules, etc., esp in familiar situations.  I think many of us do that - though hubby disagrees and says most females get pickier - so who knows?  Either way, it took maturing on my own - not someone forcing it.

 

I was very fortunate to have grown up mostly free range.  My dad and I had battles though.  Ok, I had battles with many people.  I almost failed first grade (literally) because the teacher was concerned that I wasn't ready for school.  In reality I was bored stiff with school and hated all the orders.  Almost failing - even at age 6 - did teach me to be sneakier about it.  All the battles with my dad taught me to be sneakier too, and to not share things.

 

It's tough to parent a kid with my mindset.  Understanding some of the little differences might help someone...

 

Your last paragraph is the big key.  We're all equal, no matter the age or experience.  We're all on the same team.  We bring in different expertise and get to use it accordingly as long as someone doesn't feel they get to order others out of line and run the show.

 

So many say this doesn't work, but my experience doesn't agree with them.  Each year at school I have to train the 9th graders how I run things (team, like with business IRL, but not with a dictator team leader, just with a more knowledgeable about the subject teacher).  I take about 15 minutes of "first meetings" with them to share, and a few additional tidbits are needed now and then later on.  I rarely have problems afterward, and when I do, drug use is most often the common denominator.  Almost any other issues we can work out together in class.

 

Kids can question my way of doing some specific thing - and you know what?  Sometimes they have a better idea than what I was doing.  Sometimes not.  Using language to explain what's going on is critical so we're all on the same page in our team.

 

There are people in life who feel superior and refuse the team/equal deal even when of similar age.  I avoid them as much as possible.  When these people are teachers they do fine with "normal" kids, but kids like me?  It's not pretty and it rarely turns out well.

[Scarlett]

It often comes up in terms of 'first time obedience', which I don't teach.

 

Hobbes, please tidy your room.

Okay, but can I finish this chapter?

Sure, why don't you set yourself a reminder?

Okay

 

or

 

Hobbes, please set the table for supper

Okay, but can I finish this chapter?

Not this time - the fish is almost ready

Okay

 

As opposed to:

Hobbes, please tidy your room

Yes, ma'am.

 

I teach the former.

And son hat do you do when the reminder doesn't get set? He doesn't remember to tidy his room?

 

And what do you do when he doesn't say ok, but instead begins to give you "reasons" why he should be allowed to read this one more chapter?

[Guest]

When I hear "obey" I think of ordering or commanding. I don't want to do that. I ask them to help me/the family/thier siblings/their dad with something. I am willing to explain why if there's time. I don't often have to repeat explanations. They sometimes choose to not fulfill my request. There are sometimes natural consequences, sometimes not. They have more often than not come to understand why certain things are important.

Me, too. I am another who has excessive baggage and negative connotations with the words "obey" and "obedience." The word implies rank and submission to me; it may even be in the root. Something to look up for curiosity's sake.

 

If it is a request that needs attention right now, I say so: "bring the laundry up now, because I am leaving soon and need to start a load." Otherwise it is a request that can be met when it works for the kid. I want the same consideration if there is something they need or want. Ds will say, "can you take me to the library today?" And then we will diacuss when this can happen based on the needs and parameters.

 

** I should probably add that it evolves into this as they grow. I don't negotiate optimal library time with two-year-olds.

[SparklyUnicorn]

If I insisted on first time obedience, oh good gracious I'd be constantly screaming and flipping out.  My kids don't operate that way.  And heck neither do I.  I get the same sort of thing, but really at the end of the day is it the end of the world that my kid empties the dishwasher IMMEDIATELY verses 5 minutes from now just for the sake of me demonstrating my ability to get him to jump when I say jump?  I don't think so.  I pick my battles.  I don't want to spend all day screaming.

 

It often comes up in terms of 'first time obedience', which I don't teach.  

 

Hobbes, please tidy your room.

Okay, but can I finish this chapter?

Sure, why don't you set yourself a reminder?

Okay

 

or

 

Hobbes, please set the table for supper

Okay, but can I finish this chapter?

Not this time - the fish is almost ready

Okay

 

As opposed to:

Hobbes, please tidy your room

Yes, ma'am.

 

I teach the former.