Parenting Spoiled Children (article)

[regentrude]

I'm not Laura, but since it sounds we parent similarly, I'll answer, too:

 

And son hat do you do when the reminder doesn't get set? He doesn't remember to tidy his room?

 

Then I'll just remind him again. Tidying his room is not such a  vitally important thing that it must happen on a precise time table. If it gets done later, that's fine.

Now, if  it was something where it was really important that it happened at a specific time, I'd simply remind again.

(And no, I don't think this makes kids dependent on a parent: if it is something that is important to my DS, he remembers and is prepared and on time; he is never late for work or sports. So he can remember stuff.)
 

And what do you do when he doesn't say ok, but instead begins to give you "reasons" why he should be allowed to read this one more chapter?

 

We honestly don't have this happen. We are pretty relaxed and don't overload the  kids with demands, but when we ask them to do something, they do not argue. If dinner is ready and I need help setting the table, they understand that this can't be postponed until they are done reading. OTOH, it probably also helps that I give them an advance warning: I would not call them to "set the table now" but rather "dinner will be ready soon. Please set the table some time in the next ten minutes." It may need another reminder, but it will be done.

 

ETA: I found working with time frames and advance warning a very good way to get things done without stress and pressure. So it would be things like "I need to leave now. Can you please empty the dishwasher before dad gets home?" ( at the latest, dad's arrival is the reminder the kid needs to get scrambling to do it) or "I need you to empty the dishwasher some time before lunch so we can put away the lunch dishes.". I may need to remind, but this way it is clear that there are good reasons, and that I respect their personal time and don't demand they drop everything to do something right.now.

DH and I both hated it as kids when we were supposed to interrupt whatever we were doing to do a non-urgent task this very minute; I find it disrespects the child.

[luuknam]

If I insisted on first time obedience,

 

That reminds me. At TKD one of the instructors was talking about when you should listen (not just to them, but also to your parents and teachers). Answer: the first time, but the zeroth time is even better.

 

It's really, really frustrating when you have to call your child's name 5 times before he looks up and listens to you. I know that the autism doesn't help in that regard, but listening the 1st time I call his name is high on my wish list. Doing things the zeroth time is even better... come on dude, you've been doing TKD for almost 2 years... you KNOW that you need to take your shoes and socks off when we walk in, right? Why do I have to remind you? Argh...

[creekland]

And son hat do you do when the reminder doesn't get set? He doesn't remember to tidy his room?

 

And what do you do when he doesn't say ok, but instead begins to give you "reasons" why he should be allowed to read this one more chapter?

 

I'm not who you're asking but...

 

I don't give a hoot about bedrooms, so that would be no big deal unless company were coming over.  Then we'd close the door.  If it really needed cleaning for the company (relatives or whatever), then the deal would be like this.

 

"Grandma's coming so we all need to pitch in to clean this place up and pretend we live civilly for a change.  Do you think you could get your bedroom?"

 

At this stage with our family, it would be no problem.  At earlier ages, we'd be helping them.

 

At this stage with my youngest (most like me), his girlfriend coming over works without my having to say anything.  ;)  He has the idea down.

 

With dinner, I'd listen to his reasons and joke about them.

 

"But the hero is about to go into the cave and I NEED to see what happens!"

 

"Well, the hero might mess it up the first time so you'd better let him go on ahead alone to figure it out so you don't see him making mistakes.  In the meantime, could you wash your hands please?  We need you to set the table/get drinks/whatever his 'help the team' deal is."

 

"But mom, can't it wait?"

 

"Seriously?  You think it's better if the whole family waits for you to read another chapter first?  What are we supposed to do in the meantime, see if our fish can entertain us while it cools off?  Or what do you suggest?"  (This is all said nicely - humorously.)

 

It makes sense though, and making sense is what will "win" since these types need reasons.

 

Without better reasons, theirs trumps yours - all the time.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I explain the reasons for which they should do X thing immediately. Those reasons may be as simple as "PLEASE — mom is really stressed right now and just needs you to do this thing for me, please. I need to get this article ready for publishing within the next 30 minutes. I can't tidy up right now. X is coming in an hour, so you need to tidy up." Or whatever.

 

Yes exactly.  Sometimes I really do need "immediately".  Say my counter is full of dishes and I need to use the counter to cook.  I say I really need you to get to this now because I can't start cooking dinner until it is done.  So then he does it. 

 

Or gathering dirty clothes.  I'm washing clothes now so unless you either want to wash your own clothes or don't want to have clean clothes please bring me your clothes.  Then he brings me the clothes.  Once in awhile he just decides to wash his own clothes.  Whatever. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

That reminds me. At TKD one of the instructors was talking about when you should listen (not just to them, but also to your parents and teachers). Answer: the first time, but the zeroth time is even better.

 

It's really, really frustrating when you have to call your child's name 5 times before he looks up and listens to you. I know that the autism doesn't help in that regard, but listening the 1st time I call his name is high on my wish list. Doing things the zeroth time is even better... come on dude, you've been doing TKD for almost 2 years... you KNOW that you need to take your shoes and socks off when we walk in, right? Why do I have to remind you? Argh...

 

Sometimes my kids have to call my name more than once.  I tend to start drifting off in my head and don't hear people talking to me right away.  

[creekland]

I explain the reasons for which they should do X thing immediately. Those reasons may be as simple as "PLEASE — mom is really stressed right now and just needs you to do this thing for me, please. I need to get this article ready for publishing within the next 30 minutes. I can't tidy up right now. X is coming in an hour, so you need to tidy up." Or whatever.

 

This works too.

 

The key is giving real reasons.

 

The more this mindset likes someone, the more they will readily give in to what someone else wants/needs to help them out, but still not for direct orders.  Hence my youngest cleaning his room when his girlfriend is coming over. 

 

Be honest with reasons.

 

As a parent one can order/force/coerce/punish/etc to (sometimes) get obedience, but with this mindset, it only drives that person away and when they are grown...

 

The only reason I keep any contact with my dad is because the Bible tells me to Honor my Parents and I choose to be a Christian.  But even then... it's not a relationship like I have with my mom or friends.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Different strokes for different folks.  I just don't get the whole dog trick thing.  Sit Ubu sit..  Kids aren't dogs.  I'm not a dog.  Not that I hate dogs, but I don't treat my kids like I have to train them to do tricks.  For awhile dogs don't do stuff just because you command them to.  Usually you feed them some sort of treat.  So even people don't scream at dogs to get them to do stuff.  They give them a treat. They are pairing the command with something positive.  If you are punishing and screaming to get first time obedience in a child are they doing it for reasons other than fear?  I don't like that idea.

 

 

[Guest]

I'm not Laura, but since it sounds we parent similarly, I'll answer, too:

 

 

Then I'll just remind him again. Tidying his room is not such a vitally important thing that it must happen on a precise time table. If it gets done later, that's fine.

Now, if it was something where it was really important that it happened at a specific time, I'd simply remind again.

(And no, I don't think this makes kids dependent on a parent: if it is something that is important to my DS, he remembers and is prepared and on time; he is never late for work or sports. So he can remember stuff.)

 

Yeah, same here. I think of it as similar to how I work something out with DH. In one case, I might say, "Next time you are at The Tool Store, please get a new flourescent tube for the laundry room." Yeah, I want it replaced sooner, not later, but nothing awful will happen if it waits a few weeks. In another case, I might say, "Please call about getting the windsheild replaced on the Taurus today. I want the windshield repaired before DD takes the car on a trip next week."

 

We honestly don't have this happen. We are pretty relaxed and don't overload the kids with demands, but when we ask them to do something, they do not argue. If dinner is ready and I need help setting the table, they understand that this can't be postponed until they are done reading. OTOH, it probably also helps that I give them an advance warning: I would not call them to "set the table now" but rather "dinner will be ready soon. Please set the table some time in the next ten minutes." It may need another reminder, but it will be done.

Similar here, but I will add that I do have one child who tends to be more contrary. Said child is more likely to give "reasons" why something can be delayed. Sometimes, child makes a good point and I can adjust my expectations. It is no secret that I can be over-to-top Type A and thinking the world will end if something doesn't happen this second. So sometimes, the kid is right and I say, "ok. Good point. But please, to save my insane stressed-out brain, please do it before X time."

 

As Dialectica said in a PP, sometimes the reason I give them is "please! I am stressed out and need the help!" And my dear children know this about me, so they help. They even do things without me saying a peep about it because they just know it is helpful to me and something I would want. :) this is really my Meta-Goal with my kids. I hope they are thoughtful and caring people who can see what needs to be done and do it without having to have hand-signals and obedience training to perform. ;)

[Guest]

I'm not who you're asking but...

 

I don't give a hoot about bedrooms, so that would be no big deal unless company were coming over. Then we'd close the door. If it really needed cleaning for the company (relatives or whatever), then the deal would be like this.

 

"Grandma's coming so we all need to pitch in to clean this place up and pretend we live civilly for a change. Do you think you could get your bedroom?"

 

At this stage with our family, it would be no problem. At earlier ages, we'd be helping them.

 

At this stage with my youngest (most like me), his girlfriend coming over works without my having to say anything. ;) He has the idea down.

 

With dinner, I'd listen to his reasons and joke about them.

 

"But the hero is about to go into the cave and I NEED to see what happens!"

 

"Well, the hero might mess it up the first time so you'd better let him go on ahead alone to figure it out so you don't see him making mistakes. In the meantime, could you wash your hands please? We need you to set the table/get drinks/whatever his 'help the team' deal is."

 

"But mom, can't it wait?"

 

"Seriously? You think it's better if the whole family waits for you to read another chapter first? What are we supposed to do in the meantime, see if our fish can entertain us while it cools off? Or what do you suggest?" (This is all said nicely - humorously.)

 

It makes sense though, and making sense is what will "win" since these types need reasons.

 

Without better reasons, theirs trumps yours - all the time.

This whole post cracked me up! :D I am outta likes, though.

[luuknam]

And then there are those situations where you ask the 4yo to pick up Candyland which he left scattered all over the living room floor and he refuses, even though he was the one to pull the game off the shelf and was playing with it alone. What then? He's perfectly capable of picking it all up himself, he's past the toddler "needing parent to help him beside him" phase... he just doesn't want to do it. Then what? Just live with Candyland scattered all over your living room floor? Pick it up yourself even though the kid is perfectly capable of it and was the only one playing with it? Or what?

[luuknam]

Sometimes my kids have to call my name more than once.  I tend to start drifting off in my head and don't hear people talking to me right away.  

 

Yes, but not all.the.time. (I hope).

[Guest]

And then there are those situations where you ask the 4yo to pick up Candyland which he left scattered all over the living room floor and he refuses, even though he was the one to pull the game off the shelf and was playing with it alone. What then? He's perfectly capable of picking it all up himself, he's past the toddler "needing parent to help him beside him" phase... he just doesn't want to do it. Then what? Just live with Candyland scattered all over your living room floor? Pick it up yourself even though the kid is perfectly capable of it and was the only one playing with it? Or what?

If this was my 4yo, I would help. I would say something like, "aww, look! candyland is still scattered all over! Clean up, clean up, everybody everywhere..." And the kid would do part and I would help. I have also witnessed this working in preschool class with children of all personalities, including very obstinate types. My friend Ami is like a Magician at gaining the cooperation of small kids. It is amazing.

 

P.S. One of my children was too distressed about tons-of-pieces toys. I put them well away for a couple of years because this child was too frustrated by many puzzle pieces or whatever. So this kid simply could not have access to toys with a zillion little bits. That phase did not last forver but it saved both of us a lot of upset in the interim.

[SparklyUnicorn]

And then there are those situations where you ask the 4yo to pick up Candyland which he left scattered all over the living room floor and he refuses, even though he was the one to pull the game off the shelf and was playing with it alone. What then? He's perfectly capable of picking it all up himself, he's past the toddler "needing parent to help him beside him" phase... he just doesn't want to do it. Then what? Just live with Candyland scattered all over your living room floor? Pick it up yourself even though the kid is perfectly capable of it and was the only one playing with it? Or what?

 

I can't answer for your kid, but one of mine gets overwhelmed by certain things like this.  He's gotten better as he has gotten older, but if I'd ask him to pick up a bunch of pieces scattered around he'd literally fret over where to start.  So I'd just help him and talk him through how to pick it up.  What are my options?  Scream and yell and threaten until he does it which takes time and energy?  Or help him which takes energy, but in the end I don't feel spent from screaming and yelling at him?

[swellmomma]

Different strokes for different folks.  I just don't get the whole dog trick thing.  Sit Ubu sit..  Kids aren't dogs.  I'm not a dog.  Not that I hate dogs, but I don't treat my kids like I have to train them to do tricks.  For awhile dogs don't do stuff just because you command them to.  Usually you feed them some sort of treat.  So even people don't scream at dogs to get them to do stuff.  They give them a treat. They are pairing the command with something positive.  If you are punishing and screaming to get first time obedience in a child are they doing it for reasons other than fear?  I don't like that idea.

It's funny, I have been accused of raising my kids like dogs.  I am not one to discipline if they don't listen the first time, but I do expect it.  If I call you I expect a response without me needing to repeat myself.   I am the same way with my daycare kids, If you are asked to do something (or not do something) I expect you to do as you are told.  I also use hand signals.  WHich does make it look like I am training dogs lol. But for example, nap time at daycare, I will be rocking a little one, and 4 year old child is jumping around on his cot, calling out his name even in a whisper will disturb the little one in my arms, so instead I snap my fingers twice, child freezes and looks at me, I make a motion of my hand flat pushing down, child lays down, I give a thumbs up.  If child does not lay down when I make the down motion I simply count out to 3 on my fingers, I never make it past 2 anymore.  Going past 3 means when we start the movie at 1pm for the nonsleepers child can not get off his mat to watch it.  Nonsleepers just have to relax and rest (they have books at their cots etc) until we get the little ones asleep.  There is more, for example, the other day I was making meatballs at the daycare (we premake a bunch of things to make lunches easier) so here I was elbow deep in raw meat, other staff had to help a child in the bathroom, so she was out of eyesight of the other kids.  A parent came in to pick up their child and had some questions about their day.  SO I am talking to this parent while elbow deep in raw meat, and I see a child climbing up on a table.  I can not go and move the child, nor do I have time for big explanations.  I simply said child's name, followed by down! as I washed my hands.  Once they were clean I could go talk to child, but in the moment I needed child off the table.  

 

My kids laugh because they are so used to me doing things like calling their name and pointing or giving a hand signal for something, that when that little girl was drowning, I only said my dd's name, and run while pointing and she immediately listened.  Now yes obviously a drowning child is a major issue, not like cleaning a bedroom, dd just thought it was was funny that I have gotten grief over the years of raising them like dogs (not how I think of it) and yet it was the fact they are used to me doing things that way that made her not even hesitate to listen.  SHe didn't see the girl until she was already headed in that direction with ds11 on her heels.  

 

Okay back to topic lol  I do not expect first time obedience to everything, I do give explanations when warranted.  I just had to comment on the phrasing you used about raising kids not dogs lol  

 

FTR I am absolutely horrible at raising dogs, I have never managed to actually train one, can't even housebreak the one we have.  I suck at it.  But I seem to do fine raising my crew and working with kids everyday.  

[swellmomma]

And then there are those situations where you ask the 4yo to pick up Candyland which he left scattered all over the living room floor and he refuses, even though he was the one to pull the game off the shelf and was playing with it alone. What then? He's perfectly capable of picking it all up himself, he's past the toddler "needing parent to help him beside him" phase... he just doesn't want to do it. Then what? Just live with Candyland scattered all over your living room floor? Pick it up yourself even though the kid is perfectly capable of it and was the only one playing with it? Or what?

That's when I would do hand over hand.  I would physically take their hands and use them to pick up the pieces and put them in the box.  Once cleaned up I would put it out of reach.  Usually by the 4th or 5th piece child just does it themselves, they do not want you to hold their hands anymore like that.  SOmetimes it takes cleaning up the whole thing hand over hand.  But the result is the same, child did not get to watch you clean up the mess they made.  They had to do every piece with their own hands.  ANd they lose the chance to play that game for a specified amount of time.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes, but not all.the.time. (I hope).

 

more times than I'd like to admit

[SparklyUnicorn]

That's when I would do hand over hand.  I would physically take their hands and use them to pick up the pieces and put them in the box.  Once cleaned up I would put it out of reach.  Usually by the 4th or 5th piece child just does it themselves, they do not want you to hold their hands anymore like that.  SOmetimes it takes cleaning up the whole thing hand over hand.  But the result is the same, child did not get to watch you clean up the mess they made.  They had to do every piece with their own hands.  ANd they lose the chance to play that game for a specified amount of time.  

 

So they aren't really doing it.  You are physically forcing them.  Does this lead to a better result next time?

[swellmomma]

So they aren't really doing it.  You are physically forcing them.  Does this lead to a better result next time?

Yes, they clean it up next time because they know they do not have a choice in the matter.  It is their mess and their responsibility to clean it up when asked. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes, they clean it up next time because they know they do not have a choice in the matter.  It is their mess and their responsibility to clean it up when asked. 

 

Either way, my kids are way too old to do that to.  One is bigger than me and the other is close to that.

[swellmomma]

Either way, my kids are way too old to do that to.  One is bigger than me and the other is close to that.

I would not do that with a teen or bigger kid.  The question was what to do about a 4 year old.  

 

 

[Murphy101]

I explain the reasons for which they should do X thing immediately. Those reasons may be as simple as "PLEASE — mom is really stressed right now and just needs you to do this thing for me, please. I need to get this article ready for publishing within the next 30 minutes. I can't tidy up right now. X is coming in an hour, so you need to tidy up." Or whatever.

Oh yes. The time honored guilt trip is indeed just as effective or more effective in some personalities than authoritive parenting. ;p

 

Honestly you don't sound any different than the rest of us. You just talk about it more than I'm willing to do bc it makes you feel better. And that's fine by me too.

 

Listen. I'm am not going to stand there and debate with my 8 year old why they need to do as I've told them until they either decide to actually do it or until I just decide I'll do it myself or not do it at all. I'm not going to phrase statements as questions to give a false sense of them not being told to do something, when in fact that is exactly what I'm doing. I'm not going to make fun of them for not doing it or to get them to do it. Some of the humor would NOT have gone over with me or some of mine. It would come across as belittling. I don't think generally people intend it that way, but no, humor is not always disarming. Sometimes it is unintended cuts in a more subtle battle. I'm just not doing that. I think it's manipulative of them and me and I won't play those games. Maybe I have the same hang ups about that that some of you do about obedience? Idk.

 

I said to do X in a nice tone with polite words. Well the first couple times anyways. It tends to get less nice with frequency. Lol. I'm a loving mother with reasonable expectations who has never given them reason to think they can't trust me in these regards. We are a family and that means we must help each other and work together to help us all become our best selves and there is an understanding that despite our failings we are indeed on the same team.

 

When I say dinner is going to be ready in a few minutes and then in a few minutes ring the dinner bell, I do indeed expect them to come somewhat promptly to the table to say grace and eat. I'm not going to explain the obvious or debate why this makes sense. I'm not going to debate the value of a family sitting together to eat a meal. Over time, they will see it for themselves and until then they are often too young to appreciate it anyways. And yet our meals are generally pleasant bc I won't eat at a table that isn't. It ruins the appetite.

 

Same goes for laundry and getting ready to leave and picking up the house and doing school work and more.

 

Yes, discussions are had about purpose at times and the value of strengthening our Wills to conform to what we should do instead of what we want to do and the importance of family helping family. But those are pull a child who is struggling aside conversations and not something I'm going to get into in the day to day events.

 

And yet, I would not presume parents who do these other things are actually belittling, guilt tripping people raising manipulative spoiled brats. I just think that's not a parenting method I wish to use.

 

And likewise, just bc I use a word like obedience and don't have debates every time I make a basic reasoned request, it does not mean I treat my children like dogs, brow beat them, think they are lesser people unworthy of respect, am not teaching them critical thinking, or any other such nonsense.

 

It's frustrating to try to have a parenting discussion when false paradigms are insisted upon.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I would not do that with a teen or bigger kid.  The question was what to do about a 4 year old.  

 

 

 

It would have been abusive if I had done that with one of mine at 4.  it's not a tactic that would have worked or been helpful in any way.

[Guest]

Oh yes. The time honored guilt trip is indeed just as effective or more effective in some personalities than authoritive parenting. ;p

 

Honestly you don't sound any different than the rest of us. You just talk about it more than I'm willing to do bc it makes you feel better. And that's fine by me too.

 

Listen. I'm am not going to stand there and debate with my 8 year old why they need to do as I've told them until they either decide to actually do it or until I just decide I'll do it myself or not do it at all. I'm not going to phrase statements as questions to give a false sense of them not being told to do something, when in fact that is exactly what I'm doing. I'm not going to make fun of them for not doing it or to get them to do it. Some of the humor would NOT have gone over with me or some of mine. It would come across as belittling. I don't think generally people intend it that way, but no, humor is not always disarming. Sometimes it is unintended cuts in a more subtle battle. I'm just not doing that. I think it's manipulative of them and me and I won't play those games. Maybe I have the same hang ups about that that some of you do about obedience? Idk.

 

I said to do X in a nice tone with polite words. Well the first couple times anyways. It tends to get less nice with frequency. Lol. I'm a loving mother with reasonable expectations who has never given them reason to think they can't trust me in these regards. We are a family and that means we must help each other and work together to help us all become our best selves and there is an understanding that despite our failings we are indeed on the same team.

 

When I say dinner is going to be ready in a few minutes and then in a few minutes ring the dinner bell, I do indeed expect them to come somewhat promptly to the table to say grace and eat. I'm not going to explain the obvious or debate why this makes sense. I'm not going to debate the value of a family sitting together to eat a meal. Over time, they will see it for themselves and until then they are often too young to appreciate it anyways. And yet our meals are generally pleasant bc I won't eat at a table that isn't. It ruins the appetite.

 

Same goes for laundry and getting ready to leave and picking up the house and doing school work and more.

 

Yes, discussions are had about purpose at times and the value of strengthening our Wills to conform to what we should do instead of what we want to do and the importance of family helping family. But those are pull a child who is struggling aside conversations and not something I'm going to get into in the day to day events.

 

And yet, I would not presume parents who do these other things are actually belittling, guilt tripping people raising manipulative spoiled brats. I just think that's not a parenting method I wish to use.

 

And likewise, just bc I use a word like obedience and don't have debates every time I make a basic reasoned request, it does not mean I treat my children like dogs, brow beat them, think they are lesser people unworthy of respect, am not teaching them critical thinking, or any other such nonsense.

 

It's frustrating to try to have a parenting discussion when false paradigms are insisted upon.

It is, but whenever this subject is being discussed, I feel that the large majority falls within a similar parenting continuum, but what they call those things varies. So, for example, as I'm reading your post, I feel like you think those of us who don't like the "obedience" concept are having long, reasoned negotiations twelve times a day just to make the basics happen. And, at least in my home, that isn't the case at all. So it seems like you are seeing it with a false paradigm, too.

 

I'm sure there is a huge overlap in which people who are totally comfortable with "obedience" are also patient, reasonable, agreeable and not overly demanding and people who don't like "obedience" are nevertheless holding high standards, practically-minded and want things taken care of.

[8circles]

And then there are those situations where you ask the 4yo to pick up Candyland which he left scattered all over the living room floor and he refuses, even though he was the one to pull the game off the shelf and was playing with it alone. What then? He's perfectly capable of picking it all up himself, he's past the toddler "needing parent to help him beside him" phase... he just doesn't want to do it. Then what? Just live with Candyland scattered all over your living room floor? Pick it up yourself even though the kid is perfectly capable of it and was the only one playing with it? Or what?

I think kids ARE is that stage where they need you to help up until sometimes 6-7.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Listen. I'm am not going to stand there and debate with my 8 year old why they need to do as I've told them until they either decide to actually do it or until I just decide I'll do it myself or not do it at all. I'm not going to phrase statements as questions to give a false sense of them not being told to do something, when in fact that is exactly what I'm doing. I'm not going to make fun of them for not doing it or to get them to do it. Some of the humor would NOT have gone over with me or some of mine. It would come across as belittling. I don't think generally people intend it that way, but no, humor is not always disarming. Sometimes it is unintended cuts in a more subtle battle. I'm just not doing that. I think it's manipulative of them and me and I won't play those games. Maybe I have the same hang ups about that that some of you do about obedience? Idk.

 

 

And what I'm trying to get at is this bothers me.  It's not about making it seem like I'm not just asking for something to be done.  I consider how I phrase things when I ask adults to help with something otherwise I'd expect protest or bad feelings too.  For example, if I want my husband to help me I don't say, "Please go empty the dishwasher."  This is so barky and commanding.  I'd say, "Hey I could use your help right now because I've got a lot to do, could you please empty the dishwasher?"  I'd expect the same.  If he told me to do something, I'd tell him where to shove something. 

You might think this hardly makes a difference, but if I'm going to be careful in my wording towards an adult, why would I treat my children differently?  If I treat them differently, I must think they are different.  Commanding them in this way leads me to think I think I have much more power and that I don't owe them any sort of consideration.  I don't see it that way.

 

Not saying I'm perfect and always am so careful and considerate.  I doubt anyone is. 

 

If what you do works, fine and dandy.  Even if it does not work, fine and dandy.  I'm just explaining my POV. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think kids ARE is that stage where they need you to help up until sometimes 6-7.

 

Yeah kid by kid basis.  Some can do that.  Some cannot.  Some really just have no clue where to start.  We take stuff for granted.  We see that pile of pieces and know where they go and how to get them in there and know it won't take much effort.  They have little hands and they may have not put a bunch of pieces away that many times before.  What seems like a no duh to us may not be a no duh to them.

[Laura Corin]

And son hat do you do when the reminder doesn't get set? He doesn't remember to tidy his room?

 

And what do you do when he doesn't say ok, but instead begins to give you "reasons" why he should be allowed to read this one more chapter?

 

Once he has agreed to do something, then I follow through and make sure he does.  But it is with agreement, sometimes a negotiated agreement.  

 

If the 'one more chapter' is going to have a serious effect on the family flow, then I'll explain that and insist that the task be done now.  And he'll accept that, because he knows I have listened to him.

 

And I don't always 'win'.  One day, he wanted to wear a blazer to school that I had always reserved for special occasions.  He asked me why he couldn't wear it.  I explained that if it got dirty or crumpled at school, then it would not be available in case he needed it for a concert or something.  He said that it was his blazer and it would be his look out if he had nothing to wear for such an occasion.

 

At that moment, I realised that I was treating him like a much younger child, and was only insisting on reserving the blazer because of how I wanted him to look for my own reasons: I wanted to be the kind of mother whose child had a blazer to attend a concert.  But at fifteen, it was his choice.  He already knew that if he lost a garment, then he had to pay for it, so he was ready to take responsibility.

 

He wore it to school.

 

L

[creekland]

And then there are those situations where you ask the 4yo to pick up Candyland which he left scattered all over the living room floor and he refuses, even though he was the one to pull the game off the shelf and was playing with it alone. What then? He's perfectly capable of picking it all up himself, he's past the toddler "needing parent to help him beside him" phase... he just doesn't want to do it. Then what? Just live with Candyland scattered all over your living room floor? Pick it up yourself even though the kid is perfectly capable of it and was the only one playing with it? Or what?

 

It's been so long since I've worked with 4 year olds that I can't really offer advice.  Chances are, at that age, we picked it up together or sang the Barney "Clean Up" song to get it done by my guy.  ;)

 

I prefer teens and do best with teens.  Actually, I can do ok with tweens too, but I prefer teens.

 

My kids were never really treated as young kids once they could speak in decent sentences.  We've reasoned with them and explained our reasons for as long as I can remember.  This, of course, means we rarely have to do it now or by their teen years.

 

Discussions about life still continue and are a ton of fun to have.

 

[regentrude]

Oh yes. The time honored guilt trip is indeed just as effective or more effective in some personalities than authoritive parenting. ;p

 

I do not see

 

Those reasons may be as simple as "PLEASE — mom is really stressed right now and just needs you to do this thing for me, please. I need to get this article ready for publishing within the next 30 minutes. I can't tidy up right now. X is coming in an hour, so you need to tidy up."

 

as a guilt trip. The mother explains why she is unable to perform the task because she has to deal with something urgent, and asks for the kid's help. I see this as the normal workings in a family. If my child were stressed out and working to finish an assignment by the due date, I would gladly help out and do a task for her if she asked (and I often do unasked).

 

To me, a guilt trip would be something along the lines "if you don't do xyz, mommy will be really sad/disappointed." But a request to do a a task she is unable to do because of a looming deadline (or even because she may be just stressed and not feeling well!) does not fall into the same category IMO.

[SKL]

Honestly, a lot of the "what I expect" is influenced by my state of mind at the time.  I think kids ought to learn this.  I'm pretty sure I knew as a kid when Mom's voice meant "this would be nice" vs. "immediately or else."  (She was a working mom too.)  I don't think we should have to tell our kids each and every time when the situation calls for more promptness vs. more flexibility.  There are indicators in the environment that most neurotypical kids can learn.  The ratio of how much we have to do vs. how much time before our next activity / bedtime; the tone of Mom's voice; the information Mom has shared about work stress and deadlines; whether anyone is coming over; whether anyone is sick or hurting; whether Mom ever puts up with that in the morning before her coffee.

[regentrude]

And what I'm trying to get at is this bothers me.  It's not about making it seem like I'm not just asking for something to be done.  I consider how I phrase things when I ask adults to help with something otherwise I'd expect protest or bad feelings too.  For example, if I want my husband to help me I don't say, "Please go empty the dishwasher."  This is so barky and commanding.  I'd say, "Hey I could use your help right now because I've got a lot to do, could you please empty the dishwasher?"  I'd expect the same.  If he told me to do something, I'd tell him where to shove something.

 

This.

And phrasing it as a question also allows the other person to answer: "No, I'm sorry, I can't right now; I need to finish proofreading this paper first."

 

(Although I heard that some people object to the phrasing "could you" and insist it is patronizing because they are capable of performing the task, and the proper way to phrase this should be "would you...?". Well, I guess can't win. Context is everything. My family members understand that when I say "could you" I am not, in fact, questioning their abilities.)

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

This.

And phrasing it as a question also allows the other person to answer: "No, I'm sorry, I can't right now; I need to finish proofreading this paper first."

 

(Although I heard that some people object to the phrasing "could you" and insist it is patronizing because they are capable of performing the task, and the proper way to phrase this should be "would you...?". Well, I guess can't win. Context is everything. My family members understand that when I say "could you" I am not, in fact, questioning their abilities.)

 

 

I think the "could you" is more a customary phrasing rather than intended literally.  I can't think of better ways to describe it exactly.

 

My husband's English is pretty much as good as mine, but tact was probably the last thing he had to learn.  Tact is tricky and seems to mostly be based on cultural norms that vary even from family to family. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Actually, I usually throw in a sweetie or a honey when I talk to people.  My husband does not.  My kids don't.  But I do. And sometimes when I say, "Honey could you...xyz?"  They all say, "Who are you talking to?"  LOL

 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I use the word obey and yet I parent exactly the same as most of the people in this thread.  

[PeacefulChaos]

I use the word obey and yet I parent exactly the same as most of the people in this thread.  

 

Same.  :)

[JumpyTheFrog]

I use the word obey and yet I parent exactly the same as most of the people in this thread.

Yeah, I also use the word, but I don't beat them and I try to give warnings such ahead of time such as, "After lunch you need to take a shower. Then we need to clean the house up because Mr. X is coming over." And if I tell Tigger to go take the trash out and he's in the middle of reading, he can politely ask to finish the chapter first and I will generally go along with it. I just expect him to ask politely, not ignore me or argue about it.

 

What I don't generally do with my kids is say "would you" when it isn't really a question. Adults understand it is said out of politeness, but kids sometimes don't understand that it is really a command for them. I don't want to get dragged into a debate when they say no because they thought it was a genuine question when it really wasn't.

[MotherGoose]

And what I'm trying to get at is this bothmers me. It's not about making it seem like I'm not just asking for something to be done. I consider how I phrase things when I ask adults to help with something otherwise I'd expect protest or bad feelings too. For example, if I want my husband to help me I don't say, "Please go empty the dishwasher." This is so barky and commanding. I'd say, "Hey I could use your help right now because I've got a lot to do, could you please empty the dishwasher?" I'd expect the same. If he told me to do something, I'd tell him where to shove something.

You might think this hardly makes a difference, but if I'm going to be careful in my wording towards an adult, why would I treat my children differently? If I treat them differently, I must think they are different. Commanding them in this way leads me to think I think I have much more power and that I don't owe them any sort of consideration. I don't see it that way.

 

 

 

Not saying I'm perfect and always am so careful and considerate. I doubt anyone is.

 

If what you do works, fine and dandy. Even if it does not work, fine and dandy. I'm just explaining my POV.

I definitely ask my children to do things in a way I don't with my DH, but I do phrase it differently. With DH, he's an adult and may be tired from being at work all day, need to do something else work related, etc. To me, those are valid reasons for saying "No, or I'll do it later." With my children, they have been at home or whatever all day, and are usually playing or whatever. So a "No." Is not okay with me. (In the instance of unloading the dishwasher, say. ) I also ask them the question in different ways: with DH it would be "Can you please unload the dhishwasher?" With the children it would be "You may finish reading that page and then I need you to unload the dishwasher, please." "No" is acceptable for DH, or at least somewhat acceptable--I'd certainly rather the answer be yes! But the answer "No" is not acceptable from the children. So I don't phrase the question in a way that leaves No as an option for the children, unless it really is.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I definitely ask my children to do things in a way I don't with my DH, but I do phrase it differently. With DH, he's an adult and may be tired from being at work all day, need to do something else work related, etc. To me, those are valid reasons for saying "No, or I'll do it later." With my children, they have been at home or whatever all day, and are usually playing or whatever. So a "No." Is not okay with me. (In the instance of unloading the dishwasher, say. ) I also ask them the question in different ways: with DH it would be "Can you please unload the dhishwasher?" With the children it would be "You may finish reading that page and then I need you to unload the dishwasher, please." "No" is acceptable for DH, or at least somewhat acceptable--I'd certainly rather the answer be yes! But the answer "No" is not acceptable from the children. So I don't phrase the question in a way that leaves No as an option for the children, unless it really is.

 

I didn't mention anything in that post about people saying no.

 

I get it, you don't agree with me.

 

It's ok.

[myfunnybunch]

Reading this reminds me that my sister, who is a "first time obedience" parent (with wonderful helpful children) thought my kids were spoiled because they didn't always obey immediately.

 

My friend who reasons beautifully and cooperatively with her (wonderful helpful) children thought I was awfully strict because while I do reason patiently sometimes, there are times when I, hopefully kindly or humorously, say to do things just because I said so.

 

We've all three mellowed with time and experience and teens/managing to get olders into young adulthood. They both like my kids and think they are wonderful helpful children.

 

I've come to the conclusion that usually kids turn out mostly all right. As much as I'd like to say my kids are all right because I did everything the one right way, it's probably not my super awesome rightness. To their credit they survived my most super un-awesomeness too, I guess. :P I have to be the parent I am and parent the kids I have and hope for the best. :)

[SparklyUnicorn]

Reading this reminds me that my sister, who is a "first time obedience" parent (with wonderful helpful children) thought my kids were spoiled because they didn't always obey immediately.

 

My friend who reasons beautifully and cooperatively with her (wonderful helpful) children thought I was awfully strict because while I do reason patiently sometimes, there are times when I, hopefully kindly or humorously, say to do things just because I said so.

 

We've all three mellowed with time and experience and teens/managing to get olders into young adulthood. They both like my kids and think they are wonderful helpful children.

 

I've come to the conclusion that usually kids turn out mostly all right. As much as I'd like to say my kids are all right because I did everything the one right way, it's probably not my super awesome rightness. To their credit they survived my most super un-awesomeness too, I guess. :p I have to be the parent I am and parent the kids I have and hope for the best. :)

 

I think I respond in the way I do towards my kids because this is the sort of person I am.  I have made no specific choice to do things in this way.  Behaving in another way would not be natural to me.  So it's probably a lot about that.

 

I do accept that other parenting styles can work too.  I am not trying to suggest I don't think they work or are bad.  But enough people have argued with me about my ways.  That it could not possibly work. 

[MotherGoose]

I think I respond in the way I do towards my kids because this is the sort of person I am. I have made no specific choice to do things in this way. Behaving in another way would not be natural to me. So it's probably a lot about that.

 

I do accept that other parenting styles can work too. I am not trying to suggest I don't think they work or are bad. But enough people have argued with me about my ways. That it could not possibly work.

What works for you works for you and what works for me works for me. 😀 I'm not disrespectful to my children about their need to obey me, but I also don't perceive that they have a choice or can get around to it whenever they want. DH, on the other hand, has lots more choices.

[lovinmyboys]

I admit I do get confused talking about "obedience" with people. I use "follow instructions" but I think it means basically the same thing. My kids are younger than most of the examples in the thread, and I can't imagine that most people didn't expect their young children to follow instructions.

 

Things I have very nicely asked my young children to do today: not slash the wall with a sword, not throw blocks, stay out of the street, color only at the table, take their muddy shoes off, pee before we leave the house, not blow the birthday candles out since it wasn't their birthday.

 

I did not have to say any of that to my 7 and 9 yr olds because they already know all that. My 3 and 5 yr olds needed to be told and needed to follow my instructions. Some people use the word "obey" but I have never met any one who let their kids throw blocks in a room full of people or blow out birthday candles that weren't theirs. I am not exerting my power over them and I am a very laid back, reasonable parent. I feel like I parent similarly to most in this thread, but I do expect my kids to follow my instructions at least until they are capable of appropriate behavior. I spend time emphasizing treating others and their property with respect, but when they are not respecting others or property I expect them to follow my instructions in order to do so.

 

If I tell them to stop wrestling on the stairs, I expect them to stop immediately. I guess some could call that first time obedience (though I have only heard that term here). If I want them to help me out or whatever, I definitely let them finish what they are doing/come up with a solution that works for everyone.

 

I guess my point is, in my real life I have never met someone who didn't expect their kids to follow some instructions (although those people may exist). When I hear "obey," I think "follow instructions." However, I think lots of people interpret the word obey different than I do.

[Murphy101]

And what I'm trying to get at is this bothers me. It's not about making it seem like I'm not just asking for something to be done. I consider how I phrase things when I ask adults to help with something otherwise I'd expect protest or bad feelings too. For example, if I want my husband to help me I don't say, "Please go empty the dishwasher." This is so barky and commanding. I'd say, "Hey I could use your help right now because I've got a lot to do, could you please empty the dishwasher?" I'd expect the same. If he told me to do something, I'd tell him where to shove something.

You might think this hardly makes a difference, but if I'm going to be careful in my wording towards an adult, why would I treat my children differently? If I treat them differently, I must think they are different. Commanding them in this way leads me to think I think I have much more power and that I don't owe them any sort of consideration. I don't see it that way.

 

Not saying I'm perfect and always am so careful and considerate. I doubt anyone is.

 

If what you do works, fine and dandy. Even if it does not work, fine and dandy. I'm just explaining my POV.

Okay. Well what bothers me about your example is that it seems to illustrate a dynamic of presuming a power struggle and inconsiderateness. I would and do say to my husband something like, "Please put the laundry away." Or whatever. And he might say something like that to me as well.

 

It is not barking or commanding. It's a simple sentence. Why in the world would I or he *presume* such a comment is said in a malicious or power tripping manner by someone we obviously know and love and who we believe knows and loves us? There is no power play. No inconsideration.

 

Whereas you feel the need to give an explaination to affirm you are making a reasoned considerate request/demand, we presume that is the case of family members.

 

Of course I'm fine with us agreeing to disagree, like you, I'm just sharing my POV too. :)

[Ausmumof3]

What about when you have a kid that you can 100 percent know that if they don't do it right away they forget? And I'm kinda forgetful too so I won't remember to remind them. I'm talking simple stuff like packing up the last thing they got out. Which still isn't an automatic habit.

 

I find it exhausting to be constantly reminding and the brains for everyone. If I remember to ask once I really want it done because I get so frustrated with having to remind people of the most basic stuff.

 

Also we had to evacuate last year. It definitely made it harder to get everyone sorted and out the door because the kids kept questioning everything. And at the last minute my 2 yo didn't want to sit in his car seat. Which is understandable because I've always allowed that but if things had gone badly the delays of those questions could have been life and death for all of us. Literally.

 

Also and a third thing is I think the reasoning thing works better with less kids and a less busy lifestyle. I can just manage it with my three, though I find it frustrating. If I had four or five kids or I had a packed schedule having to explain every little thing to the kids all the time it would be crazy.

 

I don't usually use the term obedience but cooperation of something but honestly it means the same things. It means, can you please just shut up and do what I ask you, right now, because I really really don't have the mental energy to deal with a 10 minute argument about why we need to pack a towel to go to the pool.

[Murphy101]

Meh.

 

God had just two kids in an isolated garden and he couldn't get them to obey even that one time.

 

So I figure I'm completely screwed in my chances of getting first time obedience bc I for sure am not God and I for sure am not raising innocents in anything even remotely like paradise.

 

I guess I could expect it anyways, but it seems an exercise in perpetual disappointment.

 

And I dislike exercising in general and disappointing exercise especially.

[Guest]

I admit I do get confused talking about "obedience" with people. I use "follow instructions" but I think it means basically the same thing. My kids are younger than most of the examples in the thread, and I can't imagine that most people didn't expect their young children to follow instructions.

 

Things I have very nicely asked my young children to do today: not slash the wall with a sword, not throw blocks, stay out of the street, color only at the table, take their muddy shoes off, pee before we leave the house, not blow the birthday candles out since it wasn't their birthday.

 

I did not have to say any of that to my 7 and 9 yr olds because they already know all that. My 3 and 5 yr olds needed to be told and needed to follow my instructions. Some people use the word "obey" but I have never met any one who let their kids throw blocks in a room full of people or blow out birthday candles that weren't theirs. I am not exerting my power over them and I am a very laid back, reasonable parent. I feel like I parent similarly to most in this thread, but I do expect my kids to follow my instructions at least until they are capable of appropriate behavior. I spend time emphasizing treating others and their property with respect, but when they are not respecting others or property I expect them to follow my instructions in order to do so.

 

If I tell them to stop wrestling on the stairs, I expect them to stop immediately. I guess some could call that first time obedience (though I have only heard that term here). If I want them to help me out or whatever, I definitely let them finish what they are doing/come up with a solution that works for everyone.

 

I guess my point is, in my real life I have never met someone who didn't expect their kids to follow some instructions (although those people may exist). When I hear "obey," I think "follow instructions." However, I think lots of people interpret the word obey different than I do.

I agree, the word doesn't have the same connotations to all people.

 

To me, most things you are talking about are just learning good social behavior. Often they learn them just by being around good models, but sometimes, they do need explicit instuctions, yes. what I have seen aometimes is that some parents who have "obedience" uppermost in their minds control the kids very tightly and don't give information that helps the kid learn social rules for themselves. This parent might bark, "Stand right here and do NOT blow the birthday candles!" Whereas the parent who doesn't think about obedience much, just, as Sparkly said, teaching kids to be decent people, might say, "Julia, today is not your day to blow out the candles. It's Janey's day to blow out candles today. Sit on my lap here and we'll watch Janey have her Happy Birthday!" It's giving them information that helps them understand our social customs. Depending on the child, maybe next time they will remember they learned about this already.

 

Also, if kids have a lot of arbitrary rules that have no connection to necessity, it is more likely that they will think they are just being jerked around. It leads to self-centered thinking because they are thinking when they finally have the power and/or opportunity, then they will do what pleases them, since they see a model of adults doing just that.

 

I was just pondering how people grow up, after interacting with a tenant who is the most awful man. Truly. He is mean and cruel, arrogant and hot-headed. I have mostly dealt with his girlfeind, but I had a suspicion that the man was abusive. Now I have virtually no doubt. It makes me wonder about his life. It makes me wonder how he came to be such an awful person. So, while I believe there is a wide continuum of parenting that does a perfectly decent job of raising perfectly decent people, interacting with broken people can really make you want to double down on your efforts to do a good job.

[73349]

And then there are those situations where you ask the 4yo to pick up Candyland which he left scattered all over the living room floor and he refuses, even though he was the one to pull the game off the shelf and was playing with it alone. What then? He's perfectly capable of picking it all up himself, he's past the toddler "needing parent to help him beside him" phase... he just doesn't want to do it. Then what? Just live with Candyland scattered all over your living room floor? Pick it up yourself even though the kid is perfectly capable of it and was the only one playing with it? Or what?

 

I helped DS when he was 4, and he was willing to join in once I started; but now that he's 7, I can advise him that if this is too much trouble to put away, we do not have to get it out again soon.

Generally he feels that it's worth the effort, but if he doesn't, I will pick it up for him, and it gets put out of sight for a while. He bit off more than he could chew--that's okay. He's a kid. But we are not living with Candyland all over, and I am not picking it up again tomorrow. It's not my game.

 

ETA: It's not about making him do things so much as having a limit to what I am willing to do for him.

[myfunnybunch]

What about when you have a kid that you can 100 percent know that if they don't do it right away they forget? And I'm kinda forgetful too so I won't remember to remind them. I'm talking simple stuff like packing up the last thing they got out. Which still isn't an automatic habit.

 

I find it exhausting to be constantly reminding and the brains for everyone. If I remember to ask once I really want it done because I get so frustrated with having to remind people of the most basic stuff.

 

Also we had to evacuate last year. It definitely made it harder to get everyone sorted and out the door because the kids kept questioning everything. And at the last minute my 2 yo didn't want to sit in his car seat. Which is understandable because I've always allowed that but if things had gone badly the delays of those questions could have been life and death for all of us. Literally.

 

Also and a third thing is I think the reasoning thing works better with less kids and a less busy lifestyle. I can just manage it with my three, though I find it frustrating. If I had four or five kids or I had a packed schedule having to explain every little thing to the kids all the time it would be crazy.

 

I don't usually use the term obedience but cooperation of something but honestly it means the same things. It means, can you please just shut up and do what I ask you, right now, because I really really don't have the mental energy to deal with a 10 minute argument about why we need to pack a towel to go to the pool.

Except that cooperation doesn't mean can you please shut up and do what I ask you right now. (In our house. I can't speak for others, I suppose.)

 

I wouldn't even bother to argue about a pool towel. So, they don't bring a towel to the pool. Meh. But my kids would know that they'd better not complain about not having a towel if I asked, "Did you pack a towel?" and they forgot or chose not to pack the darn towel.

 

I do insist on safety, responsibility, respect, but that's less about them obeying *me* in those areas and more about all of us being consistent with our family values, which ties back into cooperation and working toward a mutual goal.

[Ausmumof3]

I think evacuation is a crisis/safety situation, and obedience can be expected and enforced. If I caused my child trauma by forcing her into her carseat, too bad. At least she's traumatised and not burnt to a cinder, kwim ? I would totally enforce my will in that situation.

 

Yes, I think it works better with fewer kids too. More mama resources to go around. Logistically, there is time to discuss. I am not anti large family, but this is definitely something I would take into consideration if I was planning on raising more than three or four children very close together in ages.

 

Co-operation doesn't mean 'shut up and do what I ask' just in nicer language. Although people can ask for co-operation and really mean they want obedience.

 

I do understand not having the mental energy, but in a way, that's our problem, not our kids' problem. Maybe I need to go and deep breathe in another room for a minute and get back some energy to deal with the child being annoying about the towel without getting caught up in a battle of wills.

So you are saying that cause I'm the adult I actually get to act like the adult... Yep. I guess it does come down to that.

 

I guess I was more wondering if kids that are trained to obey all the time are easier to manage in a crisis situation. On the other hand adults that are overly compliant could put themselves at risk if they aren't used to thinking for themselves so I guess there's two sides to that coin.

 

And yeah I know what cooperation is meant to mean only, sometimes I use it wrong. I say I want cooperation, but what I really want is obedience. Which again is on me, I just have a bit of growing up to do I think.

[MotherGoose]

Except that cooperation doesn't mean can you please shut up and do what I ask you right now. (In our house. I can't speak for others, I suppose.)

 

I wouldn't even bother to argue about a pool tool. So, they don't bring a towel to the pool. Meh. But my kids would know that they'd better not complain about not having a towel if I asked, "Did you pack a towel?" and they forgot or chose not to pack the darn towel.

 

I do insist on safety, responsibility, respect, but that's less about them obeying *me* in those areas and more about all of us being consistent with our family values, which ties back into cooperation and working toward a mutual goal.

 But what if they are soaking wet and soak your car in the process on the way home because they don't have a towel and you know you'll be in a hurry so no time for a drip dry?   I also think that if they know better than to complain about forgetting the pool towel, you have somehow taught them to (obey, cooperate, whatever word you'd like to use) about not complaining, and that Mama means it when she says no complaining.  

 

This is an interesting thread.  Somehow I think that folks looking in (from the Internet) on people who do expect obedience think that they have little army soldiers who do what they are told without question, and those who don't believe in obedience sit and reason for 30 minutes every day with a 2 year old about why he has to wear shoes.  In the reality, probably both of our children behave fairly similarly in real life, and most parents probably do explain the reasons behind, say, why you can't blow out the birthday candles at someone else's party, or why you have to wear shoes--but perhaps both sets of parents have different amounts of tolerance for questions after the fact.  If the parents somehow manage to stay home with and homeschool the children in an effective manner there just has to be a level of obedience, cooperation, or whatever you might call it between children and parents, as well as a measure of mutual respect and affection.