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Parenting Spoiled Children (article)


Runningmom80
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I have to eat a bit of humble pie on the fancy car for teens issue.  One boy down the street, who is 18 like my ds, is now driving a fancy red convertible (don't know the make).  I did not ask if he earned the money for it or if it was a gift, or a combination of both, since I think that would be gauche.  So one boy out of the many others we know does have a fancy car!  He still seems like a  nice boy.  

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I am new here, so be gentle.   :)

 

My husband actually sent this article to me the other day because it could be written about the parents in our town.  Parenting here is like an olympic sport.  We definitely see young people driving luxury cars, but I really doubt that it has anything to do with the parents wanting them to have a safe vehicle.  Everything is a competition, from the clothes the kids wear, to the sports team they are on, their grades in school, the instruments they play, the groups they are in...it goes on and on.  

 

The teachers at the schools have to deal with the constant phone calls from parents when little Johnny or little Suzy didn't get the grade the parent wanted.  (I know, because I used to be a teacher!)  Imagine a school project where parents are calling and complaining because the neighbor kid got a better grade than their child and they demand to know why.  The really funny thing is that both projects were done by the parents and the child had nothing to do with it.  They can't stand to see their child have to deal with disappointments.  

 

What really makes me nuts about it is that none of it seems to be for the benefit of the children.  It is all about the parents and how they can show how wonderful they are at parenting.  They must be doing a wonderful job, right?  Because little Sam is on honor roll every time and he has his black belt all ready (or plays on travel baseball or soccer or swim or whatever) and he is wearing the newest clothes and has the newest computer and look how nicely he is sitting.  (as Mom hands him a $20)  Next thing you know these kids are in high school mouthing off to the teacher because they know they can get away with it, stealing prescription drugs out of mom and dads bathroom, and not worrying about it when they do poorly on something at school because they know they can count on a parent to call and fix it if something goes wrong.  

 

I get what the author was saying.  There is nothing wrong with wanting the best for our kids, the problem comes in when our children expect to be given these things.  It is bad when they feel it is owed to them.  If you get a luxury car for your child to drive and they appreciate it and understand the value behind it that is one thing.  When you get a luxury car for your drive because the Smith's down the street got one for their kid and your kid expects an even better one, than that is definitely a problem!  

 

These are parents who are afraid to tell their children "no" because what if the child doesn't like them anymore?  I am often shocked how some of the kids around here speak to their parents..and the parents let them!  The parent-child relationship is off balance.  A perfect example was the student I had when I was teaching middle school.  He didn't like the cafeteria food and he didn't want to pack a lunch, so his mom showed up every day at lunch time with a lunch for him that she would buy at subway or Panera or whatever else he felt like eating that day.  How can it be good for a young person to believe that they deserve to have every desire met for them?  

 

This is kind of an aside.  I live in Lake Wobegon where all the children are above average.  And I absolutely DO see some of this behavoir.  Heck, it was part of the reason I pulled my kid out of school.  He hit the ceiling of a GT test in school and there was so much advocacy for everyone's special snowflake, I felt there was little to no chance of me being able to successfully get leveled work for my quirky, asynchronous kid in the classroom.  Oh - and I have to say, he was in school 2 years.  I personally thought some of the projects he came home with were actually not age appropriate or achievable without some serious parental involvement.  Not a huge fan of hours of homework for early elementary.  I did ask a teacher about a grade one time.  My 1st grader got a "below average" score in music.  At the time, he was playing Bach Minuets on the piano independently.  I didn't ask for a change, I asked why.  Strangely I never got a response. 

 

I've had people snark at me and make assumptions about us because my kids do committed musical studies and activities.  My kids are high energy and academics come easily to them.  The commitment, team work, and skills they've gotten out of some of these activities have been invaluable for them.  Having them tied up with activities at times gives ME as a homeschooling parent some space because I don't have the easiest kids to parent.  And in no way do I want or expect them to become musicians or performing artists.  I want them to develop into who they are meant to be as adults.  I just had a gentle discussion with my newly 11 year old this morning about possibly backing down on doing so much dance for fall and she about bit my head off.  My kids music study is just part of their school day.  I'm sorry they're advanced now.  They actually practice every day.  It is a sacrifice for my kids to do some of this stuff.  But none of it has anything to do with competitive parenting.  The ones snarking and making assumptions are the competitive parents.  I just don't think that way. 

 

I just really hate that people make assumptions about other parents motivation for doing certain things for their kids.  Now that I have a teen, I find parents discover it's much harder to PUSH their teen to do stuff to fulfill their own egos and some of that stuff kind of dies off.  I  find here there is actually a fairly small subset of parents walking around actively comparing their kids to others.  I do think there are many ways to raise successful adults and there is no one size fits all chore list or room sharing scheme that is going to guarentee you have hard working, gratitude filled kids.  Heck, I suspect many kids go through a "greedy" phase and come out of it just fine.  I suspect what my parents would have called my "greedy" phase, was really at a point when I was emotionally needy and would have done better with more one-one time with an engaged parent. 

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As in, I'll say I don't want it don't care but then someone feels sorry for me and gives in?

 

No, as in, "The way to get people to comply to your wishes is to find their currency, and hold it over their heads."

 

I'll wager it's not the message you intend to give, but some kids absolutely do hear that. They see it's an effective means to solve problems, and so learn to utilize it as it works among friends and siblings. 

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No, as in, "The way to get people to comply to your wishes is to find their currency, and hold it over their heads."

 

I'll wager it's not the message you intend to give, but some kids absolutely do hear that. They see it's an effective means to solve problems, and so learn to utilize it as it works among friends and siblings.

 

A little sociopath in training then? In my experience most normal, emotionally healthy children do not interpret it that way. I see it more as the natural and logical consequences of living in this world where some people do have power over others. In my house, and I think in most jobs or schools, there is a currency that most people who get along well in society understand. Normal kids may employ it to some degree, but not in a way that's abusive or holding it over someone's head.

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A little sociopath in training then? In my experience most normal, emotionally healthy children do not interpret it that way. I see it more as the natural and logical consequences of living in this world where some people do have power over others. In my house, and I think in most jobs or schools, there is a currency that most people who get along well in society understand. Normal kids may employ it to some degree, but not in a way that's abusive or holding it over someone's head.

 

Besides, we're talking about needing to pick berries for pie while the person telling them to was also picking berries for pie. It wasn't "you need to mow the yard if you want pie" or "you need to pick berries for pie while I sit here watching you". Pie is a luxury - we're not talking about depriving a kid from food. IOW, I really don't see the problem and I think MotherGoose was perfectly reasonable in telling her kids they needed to help pick berries if they wanted to eat pie. I might have done the same thing, and if they'd refused I certainly would not have caved and would have eaten the pie without them.

 

I also think learning some basic manipulation skills is a valuable life skill... :leaving:

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My kid probably would have stopped picking if I made it an ultimatum.  But I, knowing that and really wanting to do the pie together thing, would have used a technique that works better:  putting on my "mom means business" voice.  Lucky me, usually if I say "do it" in the right voice, they will do it without threats or bribes.  (IOW yeah, they are doing the right thing for the wrong reason, and I don't care.  :001_tt2: )

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If a pregnant woman and a older lady with a broken foot could pick blackberries for 20 minutes with no ill effects, so could, and did, 2 healthy children.

This was not unreasonable, they just did not feel Ike sweating. My goodness do you never have your children do things they don't want to just because you are the parent, you know best, and they need to obey?

I have to be honest. I'm not really into the whole "need to obey" thing, except for safety stuff -- like if I say to look out because there is a car coming, my child needs to immediately obey me. Otherwise, I can't see forcing a kid to do something like pick berries and if he feels too hot or tired, to threaten him with no pie.

 

I guess it's a "pick your battles" situation. I don't try to control my ds for the sake of proving that I am the one in charge.

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LOL. Having maids to walk behind you picking up your mess is most certainly having "expensive things".

 

And sure I have no doubt they are nice folks. To everyone except the person walking behind them.

 

Whether that would make my child spoiled or not, I would never allow it because it is inconsiderate of the maid.

 

And I'm aware it's a different culture standard. Which I guess is fine as I'm unlikely to have to ever deal with it due to my own socieo economic level, which is probably why I see it from the maid's perspective.

 

I wonder if the maid permits her children to behave that way...

 

And I wonder if their parents would allow it if they were the one walking behind their kid constantly...

You are speaking the truth, Martha. Even if I had maids and domestic servants, I would never permit my children to behave this way. Fortunately, it is a moot point...
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You are speaking the truth, Martha. Even if I had maids and domestic servants, I would never permit my children to behave this way. Fortunately, it is a moot point...

 

Right, my kids clean for the maids.  :P  Whereas, I *was* the maid (or so I grumbled).  :P

 

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I have to be honest. I'm not really into the whole "need to obey" thing, except for safety stuff -- like if I say to look out because there is a car coming, my child needs to immediately obey me. Otherwise, I can't see forcing a kid to do something like pick berries and if he feels too hot or tired, to threaten him with no pie.

 

I guess it's a "pick your battles" situation. I don't try to control my ds for the sake of proving that I am the one in charge.

I.

Edited by MotherGoose
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Right, my kids clean for the maids. :P Whereas, I *was* the maid (or so I grumbled). :P

 

Having a maid is an expensive luxury. Just bc a certain demographic can get it for cheap in other countries doesn't mean it isn't still expensive. The reason it is so cheap in those countries is only bc of the very poor wages and living standards of those countries.

 

And of course I wouldn't expect my kids to clean for the maids if I had them. But I also would get furious if I caught my kids just leaving messes every where just bc they have someone paid to deal with it.

 

If I usually pick up the living room, that does not excuse all the children from an obligation to pick up after themselves and it for sure does not mean they toss their stuff about without consideration of the person who has the chore of cleaning it up.

 

To me being spoiled is not about what they do or don't have or their chores.

It is about raising someone to be considerate and courteous of others, paid or otherwise.

Someone who is spoiled does not do that.

Imo it seems not much related to finances or doting mamas.

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No seriously, we clean for the [monthly] maids, so the maids can focus on the deep cleaning.  Well, I do most of it, but I do make my kids participate.  They treat the maids with as much respect as anyone else.  My grandma was a house maid - something I should probably tell my kids about.

 

On a day-to-day basis, there's a balance between making my (not naturally neat) kids pick up after themselves, and getting my kids used to the idea that homes should be habitable.  Right now I do more of the picking up in favor of being able to remember what color the carpet is.  It's a season.

 

I agree the focus needs to be on consideration.  On my first trip to India, we bought some sandwiches at a shop.  We went back into the car and were swarmed by curious / begging street children.  One of my friends was about to dig into her sandwich, but my Indian friend (the one who had been really "spoiled" as a kid) stopped her.  "How can you eat in front of hungry children?"  We gave the kids some small toiletries and coins we had on hand for the purpose, and waited until we were in private to eat our food.

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I have to be honest. I'm not really into the whole "need to obey" thing, except for safety stuff -- like if I say to look out because there is a car coming, my child needs to immediately obey me. Otherwise, I can't see forcing a kid to do something like pick berries and if he feels too hot or tired, to threaten him with no pie.

 

I guess it's a "pick your battles" situation. I don't try to control my ds for the sake of proving that I am the one in charge.

 

yes yes yes

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I was housekeeper for a very famous person at one point.  A very famous narcissistic person.  I remember just getting done mopping the kitchen floor.  She came in, unpeeled a banana and dropped the peel on the floor.  It was feet from the garbage can.  This was just one small example of how she treated "the help".  BTW- I did not put up with it.  I told her to pick up that peel and put it in the garbage.  All her flunkies  staff held their breath to see what she would do.  After a stand off for a few minutes while neither of us would look away, she picked up the peel.  (I figured the worse that would happen is that she'd fire me.)   After that and some similar incidents, we had an understanding.  She would treat me like a normal person and would even use words like "please and thank you".  She didn't do that with any of the others who told me that she was exempt from all of that because "she was a genius".  She probably was a genius but I didn't see how that was any excuse.  Many months later, she broke down crying with me and poured out her heart to me about how no one liked her including her help and that I was the only one who treated her like a person.  That was interesting. . .     I never really did grow to like her but I did grow to feel sorry for her.  (She's dead now and no, I'm not going to say who it was.)

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I have to be honest. I'm not really into the whole "need to obey" thing, except for safety stuff -- like if I say to look out because there is a car coming, my child needs to immediately obey me. Otherwise, I can't see forcing a kid to do something like pick berries and if he feels too hot or tired, to threaten him with no pie.

 

I guess it's a "pick your battles" situation. I don't try to control my ds for the sake of proving that I am the one in charge.

 

If I waited until mine wanted to help out, I could wait a long time. I have one who nearly always has an excuse to not pitch in. I'm not going to encourage that. (If there's a good reason for not helping, that's an entirely different story.)

 

If everybody wants pie, it's perfectly reasonable to expect everybody to take a few minutes to help tired, pregnant Mother Goose get the berries. Especially when she's going to do the work of baking it.

 

As to that approach teaching kids manipulation as someone else mentioned, I think "poor me, I'm too hot and tired to help" can be used to pull a parent's strings, too.

 

If we were talking about unreasonable expectations for a child's age, I'd feel very differently.

 

ETA: As with so many other things in life, there is no single "right" way to do things. I'm sure you're raising a wonderful kid, Catwoman.

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I am clearly doing something wrong!!! lol.

 

With three kids, two adults and two big dogs at home all day, every day, I feel like the house work required just to keep the place reasonably presentable is quite a commitment. If I did not have my kids and DH helping out with regular chores I could spend all day just picking up, cooking meals, doing dishes, collecting, washing, hanging and folding laundry, vacuuming dog hair, wiping muddy footprints off the tile floor (what idiot puts white tile on a kitchen floor???), sorting mail, paying bills, cleaning cat litter, cleaning bathrooms...

 

Maybe it's a homeschooling thing, especially with younger and middle aged kids. The art projects, history projects, Bravewriter wild words taped all over the house, pendulums swinging from the doorways and science projects on the kitchen counter, piles of library books, lego creations..... I could continue endlessly.

 

If there is a secret to getting all this done in a few spare moments I would love get in on in. Put the FlyLady out of business.

 

I took the kids to visit their grandparents in May. My DH was home by himself for a week. He said the best part was that he cleaned the house thoroughly for three hours the morning we left (we left at 4am), and it stayed clean all week! So in some situations, I can see that housework is no big deal. But you should have seen the inside of the car by the time we completed the 13 hour drive to TN!!!!

I was thinkng the same! I don't find housework easy.

 

Also, only here can a discussion about spoilt kids end up as a discussion of whether or not housework is hard or fulfilling.

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I worked as a maid at a motel and a hotel. It was only bad when the guests threw up all over. One place was a lot of fun. My colleagues and I used to have laundry cart races. One maid would hop in the cart and another would push racing the other team down the hallways. This was obviously not the Ritz. Lol.

 

And at least one maid, Arnold Schwarzenegger's -- Mildred Baena -- seemed to like her job.

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I don't think expecting kids to help with something they're going to enjoy is unreasonable.

I also don't think it's manipulative to say if you don't do the work you don't get the pleasure, that's kinda how the real world works. My kids love picking berries so this wouldn't be an issue for us. We do run into trouble over cleaning up after themselves often, mostly because we are all kinda scattered. So I am not good at consistent reminders. Also sometimes I figure if I'm the one that cares I have to be the one to do it. I have gone through phases of - we aren't buying anything else till you show you can care for what you have though.

 

I knew someone who bought his kids a new car. There were three kids and it was for all of them. He got a car that was fuel efficient and slowish and in a bright colour. His reasoning was that the teen years are the most likely ones for a fatal accident so he wanted the kids in the safest car possible. This actually made sense and the kids didn't act spoiled over it. The older two are nice responsible kids. The youngest one had her difficulties but she had add and has always struggled.

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As to that approach teaching kids manipulation as someone else mentioned, I think "poor me, I'm too hot and tired to help" can be used to pull a parent's strings, too.

 

Yeah, my oldest regularly tries to control us with his fits and anger or excuses of various kinds. While reasoning may work with some kids, it isn't the magic bullet for all. My dad thinks we need to reason more with our oldest, but he doesn't see him enough to understand that he is happier now that we don't tolerate excuses and make him do what we say. We don't let him subconsciously manipulate us anymore and he is becoming much more pleasant than he used to be. This doesn't make us mean, controlling parents, since in the process he is learning skills like calmly discussing the situation instead of screaming at me or being aggressive.

 

I think there needs to be a balance. If someones child is generally well behaved and a good worker, then maybe getting them to pick the berries isn't a battle worth fighting. But if the child always thinks they have a good reason for getting out of work, it is a disservice to accept excuses about being hot. At some point, kids need to learn to suck it up and find a way to do it anyway.

 

I've never had a maid, but if I did, I would not allow my kids to be slobs. Even at restuarants I have them help stack the plates and wipe up the spilled food. It's part of being considerate of others by not making extra work for them. Like someone else mentioned, we regularly read threads where a wife will complain about her husband being a slob because his mom never trained him in good housekeeping habits.

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I don't believe for a second that buying a teen a new car leads to anything negative. My parents bought all four of us cars when we turned 16. They paid for everything, except gas and washing/cleaning the car, until we graduated from college or quit attending school. All four of us also held down jobs throughout our teen years and turned out to be decent, hard working, successful human beings. I didn't at all feel entitled to that new car but I did feel grateful.

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A little sociopath in training then? In my experience most normal, emotionally healthy children do not interpret it that way. I see it more as the natural and logical consequences of living in this world where some people do have power over others. In my house, and I think in most jobs or schools, there is a currency that most people who get along well in society understand. Normal kids may employ it to some degree, but not in a way that's abusive or holding it over someone's head.

 

I would not agree that willed children are little sociopaths in training. They simply aren't naturally as compliant. as they tend to have a higher (?) more quickly developing (?) drive for autonomy, and often learn to solve problems by thinking outside the box. When something works, they're likely to employ it. 

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I would not agree that willed children are little sociopaths in training. They simply aren't naturally as compliant. as they tend to have a higher (?) more quickly developing (?) drive for autonomy, and often learn to solve problems by thinking outside the box. When something works, they're likely to employ it.

:iagree:

 

If strong willed children are little sociopaths in training, I'm in big trouble because I've got one of them. ;)

 

Of course, I think he is perfect just as he is, and I don't see a single sociopathic tendency in him. (Spoken like the mom of a spoiled child, right? :D)

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I have a strong willed child, and I used to "joke" that she was going to grow up to be a communist rebel leader.  :P  But most people insist she's just the sweetest, most cooperative little darling.  Except my dad.  She called him "Nazi police" when he made her come in for dinner one day at age 3.

 

I think she will grow up fine, although right now she is on the lazy side.  She has a strong will but a soft heart.  :)

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I would not agree that willed children are little sociopaths in training. They simply aren't naturally as compliant. as they tend to have a higher (?) more quickly developing (?) drive for autonomy, and often learn to solve problems by thinking outside the box. When something works, they're likely to employ it.

I certainly don't think they are either. My impression from what you originally said was something to the effect of holding the currency over a friend or sibling's head, and manipulating it with them in a way that is rather sociopathic, potentially. As in "oh you want to play with my toys do you, that's your currency? Well then after you clean up my entire room you may play with my toys." As a parent I might tell my children they can't play with their toys until they clean up their rooms, but if my children did that to each other before sharing toys, and other forms of manipulation that are potentially abusive, I would be quite concerned about emotional Problems and not allow it. I don't mean "please help me clean up this mess before we get anything else out to play with," I mean, basically," I'm going to make you my slave before I let you play with my toys." I hope this is not bringing more confusion into the subject. I understand the concept of strong willed children, and I think most are quite emotionally normal, just perhaps more stubborn than other children.

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I tend to think Charlotte Mason's view of the Will is more accurate.

 

A person at the mercy of their fit of desires and whim does not have a "strong will". That's actually very weak willed. Being stubborn about it doesn't make it strong or good practice.

 

From the catholic perspective, a strong and rightly formed Will is formed to justice and personal sacrifice.

 

So all this talk of stubborn children refusing to do basic requests simply bc they don't want to does not at all speak to "strong will" to my mind.

 

ETA: And before someone jumps on me about how I just don't understand bc I must have easy children. That's total crap. 3 of my children could drive most folks to drink with their stubbornness. It's only my own stubbornness that has kept me from going bonkers while all our Wills clash. LOL And they are great kind kids too.

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No, as in, "The way to get people to comply to your wishes is to find their currency, and hold it over their heads."

 

I'll wager it's not the message you intend to give, but some kids absolutely do hear that. They see it's an effective means to solve problems, and so learn to utilize it as it works among friends and siblings.

 

A little sociopath in training then? In my experience most normal, emotionally healthy children do not interpret it that way. I see it more as the natural and logical consequences of living in this world where some people do have power over others. In my house, and I think in most jobs or schools, there is a currency that most people who get along well in society understand. Normal kids may employ it to some degree, but not in a way that's abusive or holding it over someone's head.

 

That's insulting. 

 

Children are human beings.  If they don't bow down to your every command and have their own feelings and minds doesn't mean they are sociopaths in training. 

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I tend to think Charlotte Mason's view of the Will is more accurate.

 

A person at the mercy of their fit of desires and whim does not have a "strong will". That's actually very weak willed. Being stubborn about it doesn't make it strong or good practice.

 

From the catholic perspective, a strong and rightly formed Will is formed to justice and personal sacrifice.

 

So all this talk of stubborn children refusing to do basic requests simply bc they don't want to does not at all speak to "strong will" to my mind.

 

ETA: And before someone jumps on me about how I just don't understand bc I must have easy children. That's total crap. 3 of my children could drive most folks to drink with their stubbornness. It's only my own stubbornness that has kept me from going bonkers while all our Wills clash. LOL And they are great kind kids too.

 

I don't quite understand what you mean.  I have never used the term strong willed to describe my kids.  It just doesn't seem to be a fitting term and I'm not entirely sure what it means. 

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That's insulting.

 

Children are human beings. If they don't bow down to your every command and have their own feelings and minds doesn't mean they are sociopaths in training.

That's not what I meant either. The person to whom I was responding gave me the impression that she thought a child who is told what to do might turn into a person who manipulates others In a sociopathic sort of way. Where they love having power over others for the sake of power and don't accept a bit of give and take in a normal way. Evidently that's not what she meant, but that was the source of my comment. Here's what I said in response :

 

 

0 warning points

Posted Today, 09:04 AM

albeto., on 17 Jul 2015 - 12:18 AM, said:

I would not agree that willed children are little sociopaths in training. They simply aren't naturally as compliant. as they tend to have a higher (?) more quickly developing (?) drive for autonomy, and often learn to solve problems by thinking outside the box. When something works, they're likely to employ it.

 

I certainly don't think they are either. My impression from what you originally said was something to the effect of holding the currency over a friend or sibling's head, and manipulating it with them in a way that is rather sociopathic, potentially. As in "oh you want to play with my toys do you, that's your currency? Well then after you clean up my entire room you may play with my toys." As a parent I might tell my children they can't play with their toys until they clean up their rooms, but if my children did that to each other before sharing toys, and other forms of manipulation that are potentially abusive, I would be quite concerned about emotional Problems and not allow it. I don't mean "please help me clean up this mess before we get anything else out to play with," I mean, basically," I'm going to make you my slave before I let you play with my toys." I hope this is not bringing more confusion into the subject. I understand the concept of strong willed children, and I think most are quite emotionally normal, just perhaps more stubborn than other children.

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I remember the Charlotte mason ch in question.

 

Basically strong Willed in our culture is used of someone who is determined to get what they want or about a child who will kick up a fuss when things don't go their way.

 

Whereas she says is strong will is when you have the willpower not to give way to emotional outbursts and can put your immediate desires aside for the long term benefit of everyone.

 

Not sure if everyone uses the term strong willed in the first sense but it is frequently used like that.

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When I say my kid is strong willed, I am talking about not easily giving up what she wants to do.  She is quiet, almost Buddha-like LOL but she can be very determined.  She has never pitched a fit to get her way.  At most, as a preschooler, she would grumble when she realized it wasn't happening.

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I remember the Charlotte mason ch in question.

 

Basically strong Willed in our culture is used of someone who is determined to get what they want or about a child who will kick up a fuss when things don't go their way.

 

Whereas she says is strong will is when you have the willpower not to give way to emotional outbursts and can put your immediate desires aside for the long term benefit of everyone.

 

Not sure if everyone uses the term strong willed in the first sense but it is frequently used like that.

 

Makes sense.  Might be semantics.

 

Children, like adults do sometimes try to manipulate other people.  I think when a kid acts out or doesn't do stuff without a lot of questioning or resistance, it's not necessarily that they are misbehaving.  There could be other reasons.  I think one big reason is lacking the ability to articulate exactly how they are feeling or what is bothering them.

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I don't miss being a kid.  You have to do what everyone else tells you to do and often you aren't even allowed to question it.  Can you imagine living like that now?  Sure we sometimes have to do stuff we do not like, but we can often question it or the reasons for doing it are more apparent to us.

 

 

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I don't miss being a kid. You have to do what everyone else tells you to do and often you aren't even allowed to question it. Can you imagine living like that now? Sure we sometimes have to do stuff we do not like, but we can often question it or the reasons for doing it are more apparent to us.

I was glad to grow up too.

 

However I tell my son he has a mother to help him get to that point of adulthood...and because he is not yet an adult he has to do things he doesn't want to do sometimes. And he won't always understand the explanations. But the trade off is that I provide a home and food and transportation and education and love.

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I was glad to grow up too.

 

However I tell my son he has a mother to help him get to that point of adulthood...and because he is not yet an adult he has to do things he doesn't want to do sometimes. And he won't always understand the explanations. But the trade off is that I provide a home and food and transportation and education and love.

Indeed. Relationship matters.

 

It's not like a parent in Just Authority is or should be on par with some bat guano crazy micro managing boss at work.

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I don't miss being a kid. You have to do what everyone else tells you to do and often you aren't even allowed to question it. Can you imagine living like that now? Sure we sometimes have to do stuff we do not like, but we can often question it or the reasons for doing it are more apparent to us.

Well that was not at all me growing up. I pretty much made every single adult I came into contact with feel like they needed more bourbon in their cola for dinner or think I was the best most responsible kid ever. I had no recognition of adults automaticly deserving my respect or obedience and I had no problems telling them no and refusing to cooperate. I was an awful child to deal with.

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Well that was not at all me growing up. I pretty much made every single adult I came into contact with feel like they needed more bourbon in their cola for dinner or think I was the best most responsible kid ever. I had no recognition of adults automaticly deserving my respect or obedience and I had no problems telling them no and refusing to cooperate. I was an awful child to deal with.

 

I was a highly compliant child.

Now I need therapy.  No joke.

 

It did not serve me well too many times.

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Perhaps because adults do not automatically deserve respect and obedience? Why should they?

 

That bolded sentence describes my kids exactly, and I'm pretty darn proud of them.

 

I have tried to teach them to be critical thinkers who question what motivates others, and children who have no problems saying no to adults or refusing to cooperate with them. I wish someone had taught me that I was free to say no to adults, to refuse to cooperate, and even to physically defend myself. If I would have been taught that, I may not have become a rape victim. 

 

The flip side of this is, of course, that people who do deserve respect indeed get respect (real rather than forced), and that cooperating with normal requests happens. Sometimes, my kids don't want to do stuff I ask them to do, like help me tidy up before visitors come. I ask them if they believe it to be reasonable not to help tidy messes they helped create. They go "ehm, nope, I guess not", and they get off their butts and help. Raising critical thinkers does not mean refusing to cooperate for the heck of it, after all, and it doesn't mean raising entitled people who think they can laze about. It does mean knowing that there are many adults (and other kids) out there who truly don't deserve respect, and with whom it would be dangerous to cooperate. 

 

Yes I don't want my kids being automatically obedient no matter what.  That's not always a good thing.

Has this made some adults uncomfortable?  You better believe it.  I do not tell them to be disrespectful and rude, but when they dare to act like the individual people they are some adults get a little freaked out. I can't quite figure out why exactly that is though.  I mean I get it.  You don't want 30 kids who constantly question everything you do.  Would be hard to run a class that way.  But that isn't quite what I mean either. 

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I think both extremes are bad. Kids who are naturally super compliant may be too easily controlled by others when they grow up. And kids who are naturally extremely resistant to complying can grow up to be the people bossing the compliant types around. One side needs to learn to stand up for themselves, while the other side needs to temper their desire to control others just because they like it or can get away with it.

 

Some of us have kids like the former and others kids like the latter. We may be talking past each other because if you've only had kids at one extreme but not the other, it may be hard to understand. I get what Martha means when she said she was an awful kid. One of mine drives us up a wall frequently, but he has to learn to be more compliant. His grandfather says he was very similar as a kid and we don't want our son to end up like him. He is one of those people that you can't convince of anything. He always thinks he's right, even if a person knows way more about a subject than he does. He doesn't admit to being wrong and doesn't apologize. He's the kind of person people either avoid or don't try to argue with because it is futile. In short, no humility. So we have to work hard to steer our oldest away from that path.

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Yes I don't want my kids being automatically obedient no matter what.  That's not always a good thing.

 

I don't think anyone is saying it is a good thing. Nobody wants a compliant Borg for a child. Some of us, however, have kids who are prone to being automatically disobedient. We need to teach them to pick their battles and save the negotiating for important things.

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Oh, I love it when my kids question authority the right way.  LOVE hearing them ask polite questions and advocate for themselves calmly.  Most other adults seem surprised at first, but since they can't find anything actually wrong with it, they generally put up with it.  :)

 

I have a pretty laid-back parenting style about most things.  However, I do expect my kids to respond appropriately when I speak to them.  Being ignored makes me crazy.  Being sassed or ordered around - no.  Arguing/negotiating I can tolerate if it's not irrational or disrespectful.

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I think both extremes are bad. Kids who are naturally super compliant may be too easily controlled by others when they grow up. And kids who are naturally extremely resistant to complying can grow up to be the people bossing the compliant types around. One side needs to learn to stand up for themselves, while the other side needs to temper their desire to control others just because they like it or can get away with it.

 

Actually this has not led to me being easily controlled by others.  This has led me to not trusting anyone and especially not anyone in authority. 

 

I don't think we are that far apart in agreement.  I just can't seem to express myself correctly regarding this. 

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Oh, I love it when my kids question authority the right way.  LOVE hearing them ask polite questions and advocate for themselves calmly.  Most other adults seem surprised at first, but since they can't find anything actually wrong with it, they generally put up with it.  :)

 

I have a pretty laid-back parenting style about most things.  However, I do expect my kids to respond appropriately when I speak to them.  Being ignored makes me crazy.  Being sassed or ordered around - no.  Arguing/negotiating I can tolerate if it's not irrational or disrespectful.

 

Interestingly my kids have never ignored me nor "sassed" me.   I doubt I'd even react to it.

 

I'm not saying there is something I've done that's special and has led to them never doing that, but that they have never done it.  Maybe they just aren't the type.  I don't know.

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I've raised my kids to be polite to adults.  That means agreeing with normal requests that do not cross any boundaries.  As an adult, if another adult asked me to hold the door for them or to help them in some way, I would do it.  I expect my kids to do the same.  This doesn't happen super often but it has happened over the years.  Most of the time it barely registers because helping someone with a big box to get the door open or something of that sort is a normal helping behavior.  So is getting a glass of water for a guest who asks for it (though we usually offer it first).  So is not petting someone's dog if they ask you not to or not jumping on their couch (though I wouldn't expect them to have to be asked not to since I've taught them to respect other people's belongings).  I have had children ignore me and pet my dog (causing me to have to back the dog away if I can see the dog becoming anxious) or run around my living room (I had a very expensive clock damaged due to this) or ignore a simple request to please move one chair over so that I could put a box down safely.  Again - not all the time but it has happened over the last 50 years.  Either the parent has not been present or more often stands there doing nothing.  It is irritating to be around people like that.  

 

 

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I was a highly compliant child.

Now I need therapy.  No joke.

 

It did not serve me well too many times.

 

 Yes! And my children are compliant and I do not even know what I did to not make them that way.   We really do not argue much.  In the example she gave though I think my response would have been more " hey- don't snatch, but what's wrong?" rather than "give it back".

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-m-flanagan/the-reason-every-kid-should-talk-back-to-their-parents_b_4226417.html

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Perhaps because adults do not automatically deserve respect and obedience? Why should they?

 

The flip side of this is, of course, that people who do deserve respect indeed get respect (real rather than forced), and that cooperating with normal requests happens. Sometimes, my kids don't want to do stuff I ask them to do, like help me tidy up before visitors come. I ask them if they believe it to be reasonable not to help tidy messes they helped create. They go "ehm, nope, I guess not", and they get off their butts and help. Raising critical thinkers does not mean refusing to cooperate for the heck of it, after all, and it doesn't mean raising entitled people who think they can laze about. It does mean knowing that there are many adults (and other kids) out there who truly don't deserve respect, and with whom it would be dangerous to cooperate. 

 

 

Because, yes, people should be respected until proven they shouldn't be.  For the most part it's just good manners.  For the other part, it is a recognition that yes, some people in our lives have Just Authority over us and it is wise to listen to them and foolhardy to not listen to them.  Unjust people automatically don't qualify as Just Authority.

 

And then there was me who likely would have said I didn't think it was much of a mess and if you did, then you could do it yourself.

 

I don't think your response is any less manipulative just because it is a different tactic to get them to comply.

 

I don't think either is wrong.  I would err on the side of presuming the parent knows their own child and how best to respond to them.

 

ETA:  And also, respecting someone is not about them. It is about us/me/my kids.  I teach my kids to stand up so women, sick and elderly can have their seat regardless of whether that person is worthy.  Because being the kind of person that does that is more important than whether others deserve it or not.

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