luuknam Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 About the game, though: what I wonder is why you had to add a punishment to it. See, I'm reading what you say here and it is hostile. Not as hostile as, say, threatening a country with nuclear annihilation, true. But still. There's an undercurrent of "...the little snit..." present. There was a time period in which I removed several games and toys because DS could not cope with the resulting mess and I did not want to pick up a billion cards and pieces, either. So, I put it away for some number of months. But there was no hostility to it. It was just a fact. IIRC, I didn't even say anything about it, much less make sure he knew this was his punishment for being incapable/unwilling to tidy up. I just objectively said, "hmmm. This is not right for him at this time," in the same way as I might decide we can't proceed with learning multiplication while he doesn't know his addition well enough. I think there is a big difference between incapable and unwilling. Your solution sounds perfectly fine for incapable. I'm getting the impression you see those as the same at that age though (which, for some kids, they might be). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Back to the OP: it is a poorly developed and inaccurate article. It does not line up with what I observe personally (20 years of raising kids) or professionally (work setting that include contextual settings for kids and responding to their adults). Therefore, the article isn't worth my time to respond but leave it to The Hive to create 12 pages out of it. ;) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I think there is a big difference between incapable and unwilling. Your solution sounds perfectly fine for incapable. I'm getting the impression you see those as the same at that age though (which, for some kids, they might be). I don't see them as exactly the same, although with young kids, incapable and unwilling don't have a very strong border. Emotional maturity allows people to be capable of doing things they are not excited to do; i don't expect the majority of four year olds to have a lot of emotional maturity. However, unwilling has a different root source than incapable. If my husband were in a wheelchair, and I wanted him to cut down the dead tree in the yard, he is not capable, so I am placing unreasonable demand upon him. But suppose I am not asking him to cut it down, but am asking him to take care of having it cut down? If our relationship is solid and he is emotionally stable, he probably will arrange it. He'll calll the tree company or his brother or whomever and get it scheduled. But if our relationship is rocky, if he is resentful of me, if he is not in a good place emotionally, maybe he will either say or think, "I'm not worrying about that damn tree. Who cares if the tree is dead! If it falls over, it falls over. I'm not paying or begging someone to come help out the invalid and take down some stupid tree!" If his style is aggressive, he will probably say so in angry tones. If it is passive-agressive, he will "forget" to do anything about it. The point is, if he is unwilling to take care of it, there is a bigger problem. I see this the same way with my kids. Yes, my kids are all different in levels of compliance. One child does things, notices things that should be done and just does them with no need to say a thing. Another is more into the personal agenda and doesn't notice a mess unless it blocks the gaming system. ;) The thing is, I try to avoid putting a lens over my kids of, "oh, that's the defiant one!" I believe all people are capable of cooperating when their needs are met and the relationship is stable. (At least, all people without a mental or physical disorder, okay?) We vary on this board with respect to chores, but I am in the chore camp. There are chores everyone does every day and there are weekly chores that vary. We don't fight about chores in our home, but the responses and interactions vary. In a few cases, I have accepted that they aren't going to do some thing, or not the way I want. I am unwilling to check behind teens every day to make sure they put clean clothing in the drawers. So I let it go. In other cases, I do need the thing to happen and I remind them. I do get angry once in a while. I have snapped, "your bathroom is still disgusting, it is 10:30pm and you are leaving for a week TOMORROW! I am not looking at that sickening stye all week so go clean it NOW!" It has happened, but I don't consider those interactions to be my finest parenting moment. Just as I wouldn't consider it my finest marriage moment if I said something similar to DH about a task I wasked him to take care of. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegs Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 If DS says no when I ask him to help pack up, I tell him he can do it when he's not busy, and I usually help. I want to maintain a spirit of cooperation, rather than an adversarial relationship, so I make it very easy for him to choose to contribute to a task. I'm happy to do lots of cheerful modelling, even if it means assisting with jobs he *could* do alone, or waiting until he agrees to help. Sometimes I model being spontaneously helpful: "I know you're tired after all that running around at the park, so I've tidied up the Lego for you, so you have somewhere comfy to hang out." It works! It really does. He does similar things for me sometimes, and looks *so* happy with himself. I want him to internalise "we work together and I take responsibility for making good choices" rather than "I will be punished if I disobey people in authority", because the latter makes for ethically weak adults, IMO. I know too many people with stunted moral development, and I am aiming higher. It's just not congruent with my values to engage with another human being (yes, even a 5yo) at that level. We clean up because we don't want our things being lost or damaged, and because we like our living space better when it's clean. We do it *together*, because we are both capable, and because that's fair. We usually do something nice after a big clean, like have a tea party, or put on some music and dance. It's more motivating for us both, and means that we associate the effort of cleaning with enjoying the space *together*. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Back to the OP: it is a poorly developed and inaccurate article. It does not line up with what I observe personally (20 years of raising kids) or professionally (work setting that include contextual settings for kids and responding to their adults). Therefore, the article isn't worth my time to respond but leave it to The Hive to create 12 pages out of it. ;) Ah, but you know we hivers take the idea and expound about it for eleven of the following twelve pages. That's what we do here. ;) 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 If DS says no when I ask him to help pack up, I tell him he can do it when he's not busy, and I usually help. I want to maintain a spirit of cooperation, rather than an adversarial relationship, so I make it very easy for him to choose to contribute to a task. I'm happy to do lots of cheerful modelling, even if it means assisting with jobs he *could* do alone, or waiting until he agrees to help. Sometimes I model being spontaneously helpful: "I know you're tired after all that running around at the park, so I've tidied up the Lego for you, so you have somewhere comfy to hang out." It works! It really does. He does similar things for me sometimes, and looks *so* happy with himself. I want him to internalise "we work together and I take responsibility for making good choices" rather than "I will be punished if I disobey people in authority", because the latter makes for ethically weak adults, IMO. I know too many people with stunted moral development, and I am aiming higher. It's just not congruent with my values to engage with another human being (yes, even a 5yo) at that level. We clean up because we don't want our things being lost or damaged, and because we like our living space better when it's clean. We do it *together*, because we are both capable, and because that's fair. We usually do something nice after a big clean, like have a tea party, or put on some music and dance. It's more motivating for us both, and means that we associate the effort of cleaning with enjoying the space *together*. Ah the days of parenting a 5 year old. I had the most cooperative, agreeable, happy, helpful kid on the planet when he was 5. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Ah, but you know we hivers take the idea and expound about it for eleven of the following twelve pages. That's what we do here. ;) Yeah and then throw in a thread jack or two about someone's specific kid or issue and it can just keep on going. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runningmom80 Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 I found these, http://www.amazon.com/Fred-Friends-TACO-TRUCK-Holder/dp/B00JDRDIO6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegs Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Ah the days of parenting a 5 year old. I had the most cooperative, agreeable, happy, helpful kid on the planet when he was 5. I'm glad that you have fond memories of this time. :) I don't want to assume snark, so feel I should ask for clarification - it looks like you are implying that my values are not relevant to parenting teens. Is this the case? If so, would you feel differently knowing that I *have* cared for and parented my teen brothers, because of our mother's severe mental illnesses? It's understandable that you wouldn't know this, because I hadn't previously mentioned it. You might assume that I have no experience with being responsible for 13 - 19 year-olds. I'd like you to know that this is not true. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I'm glad that you have fond memories of this time. :) I don't want to assume snark, so feel I should ask for clarification - it looks like you are implying that my values are not relevant to parenting teens. Is this the case? If so, would you feel differently knowing that I *have* cared for and parented my teen brothers, because of our mother's severe mental illnesses? It's understandable that you wouldn't know this, because I hadn't previously mentioned it. You might assume that I have no experience with being responsible for 13 - 19 year-olds. I'd like you to know that this is not true. Absolutely no snark. Just fondly remembering how easy it was to parent a 5 year old. A friend of mine prefers the teen stage...she though 5 year olds were more challenging. And no I am not implying your values are not relevant to parenting a teen. From the limited amount of info I have about how you parent your 5 year old I assume our values are similar. My values haven't changed...my 5 year old just grew up ;and my approach has to change as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegs Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Absolutely no snark. Just fondly remembering how easy it was to parent a 5 year old. A friend of mine prefers the teen stage...she though 5 year olds were more challenging. And no I am not implying your values are not relevant to parenting a teen. From the limited amount of info I have about how you parent your 5 year old I assume our values are similar. My values haven't changed...my 5 year old just grew up ;and my approach has to change as well. Well I'm glad I asked! I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 ME: Would you like option one or option 2? KID: Neither!!! Get outta my house. The "three kids at a meal" variation is: me: grilled chicken for dinner! #1: yay! #2: yum! #3: oh, no! There is not one meal that all 3 of then like. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I like the teen years more than babies, toddlers and preschoolers. :) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 If you take advantage of me by being purposely noisy in the one place with a bed for me to sleep in (luckily not a problem in my house), then I'm not sure what a reasonable response would be. If reasoning/negotiating with someone fails and they insist on being purposefully unreasonable, then what? Though I'm guessing if a spouse chooses to be unreasonable about watching TV in the bedroom there are underlying issues in the marriage with the TV issue being a symptom. I think you're right. If two adults cannot resolve conflict with reasoning and negotiating, articulating needs and compromising privileges, and so resort to control and domination, then there are issues more pressing than noise at night. For the purpose of this discussion, do you consider Quill's method of putting the game away for a few months to be "loss of property"? I'm assuming she didn't grab it in front of him and punitively hide it in response to anger and a public display of control, but rather she organized her home in such a way that contributed positively to everyone's piece of mind. I'm also assuming she discussed her reasons if he asked, but this is purely speculation on my part [based on what little she said and what I assume to be her personality from reading her posts here]. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I like the teen years more than babies, toddlers and preschoolers. :) Ditto! We were able to do so much more with our guys when they were teens and our discussions hit a whole different level. I'd love to relive those years. Now my youngest is 19 - almost 20. I'd love to go back to 2006 and just relive the last nine years (esp if I can change some mistakes)! What's nice is the two youngest (the two I have the most contact with) agree with that thought. Oldest is married now, so presumably happy with his wife and probably wouldn't want to go back - unless she could join us in our experiences. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I'm assuming she didn't grab it in front of him and punitively hide it in response to anger and a public display of control, but rather she organized her home in such a way that contributed positively to everyone's piece of mind. I'm also assuming she discussed her reasons if he asked, but this is purely speculation on my part [based on what little she said and what I assume to be her personality from reading her posts here]. Assumptions are all correct. :) In that particular instance, I don't think we had a discussion about it, but I also don't remember him ever asking about the missing things. The hardest thing about it, if I am honest, was that some of the things I put away were *my* favorite things: beautiful wooden puzzles and memory association cards. He could not manage the puzzles and they frustrated him. He was too energetic to play with the memory cards and instead would throw them everywhere. So the hardest part was admitting to myself that these beautiful, high quality toys were not useful to him at that time and that, honestly, the cheap matchbox cars and McDonalds Happy Meal junky robots my mom gave him were actually the correct toys for that time. ;) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Assumptions are all correct. :) In that particular instance, I don't think we had a discussion about it, but I also don't remember him ever asking about the missing things. The hardest thing about it, if I am honest, was that some of the things I put away were *my* favorite things: beautiful wooden puzzles and memory association cards. He could not manage the puzzles and they frustrated him. He was too energetic to play with the memory cards and instead would throw them everywhere. So the hardest part was admitting to myself that these beautiful, high quality toys were not useful to him at that time and that, honestly, the cheap matchbox cars and McDonalds Happy Meal junky robots my mom gave him were actually the correct toys for that time. ;) Oh yeah... All the toys that mum loves are the ones the kids would happily send to the op shop. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I must be really weird. I love all the ages and stages. I love babies because they're so kissable and hugable and everything is new and fascinating to them. I love toddlers and preschoolers because as they start to try and make sense of the world their explanations for things are just adorable but you can see the wheels turning in their little brains. Also, they still think you hung the moon. I love children because they are starting to learn more about how the world works and you can really see their personality and temperament taking shape. I love preteens because...Okay, not my favorite, but I don't outwardly dislike that age. I love teens because you can see the budding young adult who's almost there, and you can have deep conversations with them. I love the adult child because the relationship is totally different now but the overwhelming love you have for them is still there. There I said it. I love kids. All ages. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I must be really weird. I love all the ages and stages. I love babies because they're so kissable and hugable and everything is new and fascinating to them. I love toddlers and preschoolers because as they start to try and make sense of the world their explanations for things are just adorable but you can see the wheels turning in their little brains. Also, they still think you hung the moon. I love children because they are starting to learn more about how the world works and you can really see their personality and temperament taking shape. I love preteens because...Okay, not my favorite, but I don't outwardly dislike that age. I love teens because you can see the budding young adult who's almost there, and you can have deep conversations with them. I love the adult child because the relationship is totally different now but the overwhelming love you have for them is still there. There I said it. I love kids. All ages. Oh man, me too. I'd say tweens are like the toddlers and preschoolers of adulthood. They're starting to make sense of the world in light of their own experiences as opposed to simply following along. Their sense of wit and cleverness really starts to blossom at this point. I'm with you, kids are just the bee's knees. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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