WDYT? Top ten percent of households (income)

[SKL]

No I really think you are ignorant to the struggles I went through. You made suggestions that were not available to me.  You made it seem like no big deal.  Oh just hitch a ride or carpool.  With who?!  I didn't know anyone at the school.  All of my friends went far away to school. 

 

I'm sure it's hard work for everyone, but there are hills so steep to climb for some people you cannot even believe how impossible it is to climb over them.  When I said I begged, borrowed, and stole...I was not really kidding.  No exaggeration.  I did whatever it took short of committing crimes.  My mother gave me rides and if it weren't for her I would not have done it at that point in time.  I do thank her for that.  But I put up with her abuse for years in exchange. 

 

Well I'm sure you are ignorant of the struggles I went through as well.  My parents had 6 kids (the youngest was 4 when I went to college) and no money.  My parents were students at the same time my siblings and I were.  Sometimes we had one car, sometimes two.  We lived in the boonies, no transportation other than sharing a car or riding a bicycle.  When I say we shared a car, I mean I may have dropped my dad off at work at 8am and then gone to school where my first class was at 11am, then eventually went and picked my dad up at 4pm, and drove back to school where we both took night classes, then drove home at 10pm.  If it was Friday or Saturday night, I then drove to my factory job from 12am to 12pm.  Many of these drives were in a blizzard in the snow belt.  There were not very many jobs around, either.  In those days the unemployment rate in our county was 25%.  The interest on my parents' home loan was 11.25%, and I needed to help out financially and with the younger kids.  I worked as many as 60 hours per week while taking a full load of college credits, then did chores and helped my younger siblings learn to read.  I had to borrow student loans every year, pay for tuition and books, and turn over any balance to my mom for room & board.  I graduated with $85K debt which I paid off at interest as high as 12%.

 

People manage to make it happen.  Who ever said it was easy?  I never heard that.  I know my uncle was homeless when he was attending podiatry school.  His parents didn't believe in high school diplomas, forget college.  My dad could barely read and he went to college while working full time and supporting a family of 8.  My mom went to college while working and raising 6 kids, including a nursing baby.  I guess I'm too used to the idea that going to college is worth doing even when it's hard.

 

Question:  if you had no way to get to any college, then how would you have worked at a sustainable job?

 

Your mom drove you and you had to be nice to her.  That doesn't sound so terrible.  I had to be nice to my mom too.  My kids will have to be nice to me, too, if they want my help.

 

[Χά�ων]

Yes, I have been called insane many times. But, I have crawled out of poverty to a life in the top 1%, although admittedly I go back and forth in income multiple times in my lifetime. My poverty years were spent as a teenage single mom without help from family or the government.

 

I am much more interested in how people live on less than what they make, however, than what they make. I have friends who make almost zero who live just as fulfilling a life as my friends who make a ton of money.

 

I have several friends now who are homesteaders. They have no electricity and no plumbing. My friends live in Florida and Tennessee, so winter freezing is not as much as an issue as the homesteaders in Alaska which I have read about. Anything they need is crafted or mostly bartered. When they need cash, they sell something they have made or been given. I am quite taken with the lifestyle as it appears much less stressful than my own.

 

The friends I have who make a ton of money are now more interested in creating free time than money, for the most part it seems.

 

No, one does not NEED medical care. People were surviving long before there were doctors and nurses and CT scans. True, one may not live as long, or may live longer whatever the case may be. And it depends on if one's definition of medical care includes life at all costs vs. just life until death whenever that may occur. I have had the pleasure of meeting quite a few elders over the years who have never seen a doctor. They had their babies at home, set their own broken bones, and treated ailments with home remedies. Yes, they might have died of a heart attack at age 40 or cancer at age 35. But, they didn't. So they never needed a doctor. Their children did not have fancy diagnoses like autism spectrum or mitochondrial diseases. But, they did the best they could with what they had. So be it. Is it the best way to live? Not for me. But it is a possibility for those who live extremely frugally.

 

So what sets apart the 1%ers and homesteaders who are not financially handicapped vs. those who live tied to their finances? Sounds like someone needs to start another post because I am feeling a little insane.

If your adult child needed life saving medical care would you help or tell them thy do not need it since they cannot afford it and watch them die? Why would you insist other could do that?

[regentrude]

Yes, I have been called insane many times. But, I have crawled out of poverty to a life in the top 1%, although admittedly I go back and forth in income multiple times in my lifetime. My poverty years were spent as a teenage single mom without help from family or the government.

 

I am much more interested in how people live on less than what they make, however, than what they make. I have friends who make almost zero who live just as fulfilling a life as my friends who make a ton of money.

 

I have several friends now who are homesteaders. They have no electricity and no plumbing. My friends live in Florida and Tennessee, so winter freezing is not as much as an issue as the homesteaders in Alaska which I have read about. Anything they need is crafted or mostly bartered. When they need cash, they sell something they have made or been given. I am quite taken with the lifestyle as it appears much less stressful than my own.

 

The friends I have who make a ton of money are now more interested in creating free time than money, for the most part it seems.

 

No, one does not NEED medical care. People were surviving long before there were doctors and nurses and CT scans. True, one may not live as long, or may live longer whatever the case may be. And it depends on if one's definition of medical care includes life at all costs vs. just life until death whenever that may occur. I have had the pleasure of meeting quite a few elders over the years who have never seen a doctor. They had their babies at home, set their own broken bones, and treated ailments with home remedies. Yes, they might have died of a heart attack at age 40 or cancer at age 35. But, they didn't. So they never needed a doctor. Their children did not have fancy diagnoses like autism spectrum or mitochondrial diseases. But, they did the best they could with what they had. So be it. Is it the best way to live? Not for me. But it is a possibility for those who live extremely frugally.

 

So what sets apart the 1%ers and homesteaders who are not financially handicapped vs. those who live tied to their finances? Sounds like someone needs to start another post because I am feeling a little insane.

 

Oh the golden Middle Ages. When everybody was raising their own food, without electricity and plumbing and medical care.

 

Maybe there is a reason life expectancy was significantly lower and infant mortality sky high back then.

But of course, it was cheap. What a great suggestion to solve the problem of poverty.

 

As a nice bonus, it decreases the surplus population. Just think, no people with disabilities or chronic illness.. they would not make it past infancy. How much money society could save...

 

I can't believe I am reading this kind of posts here. On a board where parents have children who have "fancy diagnoses" .

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I could give, and have given, lessons in black belt tightwaddery. I have lived without running water, without a bed, without any heat but an old woodstove. I have gardened, hung the laundry (which I scrubbed on a genuine washboard), washed my hair outdoors in water toted from a relative's house as my only option, and frankly gone very, very hungry. I've walked with cardboard in my shoes to stop some of the leaks from puddles coming in the holes. I have lived in dilapidated trailers where the mice ran over me as I slept on the cold floor in winter. I have lived in a tent down by the lake, not in pretty summertime weather on vacation from a real home, but the other kind of scenario. I have lived in urban housing with gunfire whizzing past my bedroom window. I have lived places where nobody stirs a step outdoors after dark. I have lived without healthcare, suffering chronic pleurisy, lupus complications, bad teeth, a leg deformity that makes walking painful at times, and lack of information on nutrition leading to all sorts of ills.

 

The whole time, I had a painfully clear view of how the nice people live. They were my friends. I was in their homes. I went to schools with their children. I was part of their churches. If I'd been kept from that exposure, say, through homeschooling, I'd have never known my options. I'd have never guessed how to leverage my gifts toward increasing skills. I'd have never known that no child should have to live that way.

 

And I did grow up to get vocational training and to work in an inner-city clinic, helping people whom I understood (the hard way) to know how to feed their children and why they must bring them in for checkups and vaccinations. I grew up to hit nowhere near the 1% but as an American citizen with a good marriage, provided-for children, a mortgage and a car I believe I'm in the top 3% globally which is pretty damn impressive to me.

 

That's why I know, and I mean I really know, how asinine, ignorant, unloving, and dangerous it is to tell people they don't need heating or health care. I'm not buying anything less. If grown adults want to play Grizzly Adams in the woods, more power to them, a lot of that lifestyle appeals to me, too. But if they are dragging their kids out there where they're going to be deprived, too, while parents lose their sense of perspective and become accepting of increasingly unacceptable living conditions for their kids, that's where you lose me.

 

You have children, you work your ass off to provide for them. I don't mean keeping up with the Joneses. I mean that your personal, self-serving upwardly mobile climb is on hold while you do whatever you have to do to keep those babies safe. This is how people end up utilizing crappy public schools, taking the government cheese, living with $40,000 in debt hanging over their heads instead of "living like no one else now so they can live like no one else later," as one financial guru (whose kids never went hungry) put it.

 

And part of that is to provide a warm, clean home, and have medical insurance and doctors at the ready, if at all possible. It takes just one event to learn how much you need health care, and sometimes the person who has that event in the family is a child. ACA promises are not coming true. Nobody should count on them, nor rest easy that improvements will stay if they are here for awhile. Now, if you can't provide that home (to your own financial detriment), well, that's the reality for a million families. Something must be done (which may or may not have been the point of this thread in the first place). If you can't get the food, medicine, clothing for them no matter how you shelve your own interests, that's a problem. You need solutions, neighbors, government. There's no sin or crime in that.

 

But to CHOOSE it. To legitimately have that choice and choose deprivation for your children while you save money is miserly, cheap, self-serving, and wrong.

[Rosie_0801]

I can't believe I am reading this kind of posts here. On a board where parents have children who have "fancy diagnoses" .

 

Yeah. I had one of them. I really liked him too.

[sewingmama]

lol, I live in an extremely high COL area, and we make ends meet on your example of 'excellent money'. True, we don't have to worry about health insurance.

 

Nevertheless, we would be comfortable, even in a high COL area, on $100 000, let alone $150 000.

 

This debate was had in my city last year, when $150 000 was proposed as a cut-off for things like child care benefit. Many, many people in my city insisted they couldn't manage on $150 000, that they were absolutely stretched and that they needed benefits to cope.

 

I think they are having themselves on, frankly.

I'm not suprised they would say that...we earn over $100 000 and struggle to pay the bills. We have two almost dead cars...rent because we can't afford to buy.

Because of our income we recieve no benefits and pay for everything. Every time I go to the doctor I pay $68 ( yeah so much for universal healthcare). I pay upfront for x-rays, ultrasounds, MRIs to the tune of $500 each. Blood tests seem to be the only thing we bulk bill for.

No rent assistance so we have pay extremely high rent.

We recieved no school kids bonus this year...$600 I had to pull out of our already stretched budget.

No electricity discounts.

No gas discounts.

No Tax Benefits A or B

 

I have many lower income friends who do extremely well...better then we do..and the amount of free things they qualify for is amazing. They have nicer cars...own houses.

To live comfortably in Australia I think $200 000 and up would be the goal.

 

The higher the income the less tax breaks and discounts and goverment help...that is often forgotten by people " looking up". They snark about how hard it must be for people on higher incomes to live when they manage on lower...but they have no idea. There are many weeks we eat peanut butter sandwiches to make ends meet just as much as they do. We never go on vacation. Some weeks we don't even have gas for the car. We don't even have any debt we are paying except one small loan almost paid off. Its just cost of living expenses. We earn more so we pay more.

[creekland]

Like Katy answered, most of these high paying internships are through on-campus recruiting through either a job fair or postings from the department. Some are advertised on the university website under the student section.

 

Ds's department sends students to the same internships every year. These are large and small tech firms (very much household names) and banks, to name some.

 

Other departments have similar relationships with companies, which are advertised beginning in the fall for the following summer.

 

Middle son is going through his college finding summer options and he likely has one of the highest GPAs in his college.

 

I think the major money is in tech firms.  He's not a tech major.  He's pre-med and will have majors in Brain and Cognitive Science + Bio and minors in Psych, American Sign Language, and possibly Chem.  There's not a "tech" bone in his body, so the higher pay internship options don't appear to be out there for him.  Those appear to be pretty limited in scope.

 

Still, it was good to get the link on here for those who do fit that niche.  ;)

[MyThreeSons]

I find it totally believable -- across the nation. In some areas, no. 

 

Several years ago, there was a man at our church who was transitioning from working in business to full time ministry. There were concerns about whether our church budget would be able to handle the additional salary proposed for this man. At the budget meeting, it was pointed out that he would be taking a big cut in pay, and that his wife was going to have to start working outside the home to make it work, but that they were really committed to making this change. I had to laugh, because the husband's "big cut" salary was going to be exactly three times what we were surviving on at the time. 

[Random]

Yes, I have been called insane many times. But, I have crawled out of poverty to a life in the top 1%, although admittedly I go back and forth in income multiple times in my lifetime. My poverty years were spent as a teenage single mom without help from family or the government.

 

I am much more interested in how people live on less than what they make, however, than what they make. I have friends who make almost zero who live just as fulfilling a life as my friends who make a ton of money.

 

 

Good for you!!

 

We make a tiny income.  But we live well on even less.

[sewingmama]

Many of those people are "middle class". They are, economically, in the middle of the pack. That was just the only link I could find that was even tangentially relevant.

 

So long as you keep saying that these are things that the middle class has universally*, I'm going to keep saying that you, and everybody with those views, are completely out of touch.

 

Catwoman thought it was her income level that made me say her perspective is skewed. Her income level is what's skewing her perspective, but it's the attitudes she has about what's normal that made me say it.

 

* Excepting fridges. Though as point of fact, I know people who are living in a shelter, a motel, or a room-in-a-house who don't have more than a small space in the fridge and a hotplate. Those people really are past the poverty line, though.

People in poverty don't use the laundromat..they can't afford to. They wash their clothes in their bathtub. Last year our washing machine broke and we couldn't afford to replace it. I used the laundromat and it cost $3 per load and $1 per 10 minutes in the dryer ( I took mine home to dry on the line). With 3 kids it cost me $30 a week to do washing. There were a few times I washed my kids clothes in the bathtub because I couldn't afford the cost.

 

So really...poor people do not use the laundromat...middle class people do. Those who are 'elite' might think that only poor people use the laundromat...because it seems like a poor person thing to do... People who live in true poverty wish they could afford to wash their clothes...middle class people are grateful they can afford to...even if they can't afford a new machine. Elite people just go out and buy a new machine...no worries.

[prairiewindmomma]

Checkout clerks that make $15hr? They make $7.25 here. They would need to work for 100 hours just to make basic rent for a dumpy studio apartment...and still need to do utilities, food, etc.

 

I think the only way that we are going to see a narrowing of the disparity in our society is to address health care, education, and our tax structure.

 

I live in a state that gutted services for the poor, elderly, and ill. The state cut education spending dramatically. Taxes for the wealthy were eliminated or drastically reduced. The result has been a huge uptick in poor (and hungry) children. Test scores have fallen for public school students. State university fees are making college unaffordable for many (or they are taking out large amounts of loans).

 

Until we voters can select people actually capable of governmental change designed to promote the interests of everyday people over corporations or a select number of individuals, I don't have much hope that things are going to improve.

[AimeeM]

There are people on this board who have, or who have children who have, serious enough medical conditions (as in, no medical care = death) who may just take offense to that statement.

Yes, I have been called insane many times. But, I have crawled out of poverty to a life in the top 1%, although admittedly I go back and forth in income multiple times in my lifetime. My poverty years were spent as a teenage single mom without help from family or the government.

I am much more interested in how people live on less than what they make, however, than what they make. I have friends who make almost zero who live just as fulfilling a life as my friends who make a ton of money.

I have several friends now who are homesteaders. They have no electricity and no plumbing. My friends live in Florida and Tennessee, so winter freezing is not as much as an issue as the homesteaders in Alaska which I have read about. Anything they need is crafted or mostly bartered. When they need cash, they sell something they have made or been given. I am quite taken with the lifestyle as it appears much less stressful than my own.

The friends I have who make a ton of money are now more interested in creating free time than money, for the most part it seems.

No, one does not NEED medical care. People were surviving long before there were doctors and nurses and CT scans. True, one may not live as long, or may live longer whatever the case may be. And it depends on if one's definition of medical care includes life at all costs vs. just life until death whenever that may occur. I have had the pleasure of meeting quite a few elders over the years who have never seen a doctor. They had their babies at home, set their own broken bones, and treated ailments with home remedies. Yes, they might have died of a heart attack at age 40 or cancer at age 35. But, they didn't. So they never needed a doctor. Their children did not have fancy diagnoses like autism spectrum or mitochondrial diseases. But, they did the best they could with what they had. So be it. Is it the best way to live? Not for me. But it is a possibility for those who live extremely frugally.

So what sets apart the 1%ers and homesteaders who are not financially handicapped vs. those who live tied to their finances? Sounds like someone needs to start another post because I am feeling a little insane.

 

[*lifeoftheparty*]

Checkout clerks that make $15hr? They make $7.25 here. They would need to work for 100 hours just to make basic rent for a dumpy studio apartment...and still need to do utilities, food, etc.

 

I think the only way that we are going to see a narrowing of the disparity in our society is to address health care, education, and our tax structure.

 

I live in a state that gutted services for the poor, elderly, and ill. The state cut education spending dramatically. Taxes for the wealthy were eliminated or drastically reduced. The result has been a huge uptick in poor (and hungry) children. Test scores have fallen for public school students. State university fees are making college unaffordable for many (or they are taking out large amounts of loans).

 

Until we voters can select people actually capable of governmental change designed to promote the interests of everyday people over corporations or a select number of individuals, I don't have much hope that things are going to improve.

 

I agree, but apparently, we are now an oligarchy, not a democracy. What goes down is based on the wants of the 1% and their $$$. There really is very little that the average American can do.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

 

I don't mean to turn this to politics, just thought it was relevant. Personally, I think something like the French Revolution is going/needs to happen here before things imporove.

 

(*Warning paranoia follows*) LOL!! This is just one of the many reasons (not even in the top 20!) why DH and I (and DS10) are going to start sailing and work toward getting a sailboat.... when the poop hits the fan, we'll be halfway to the Carribean ;)  Savy?

[AimeeM]

Audrey, thank you for saying that. "fancy diagnoses" -- this alone says so much.

I agree. I'll also note that I'm a diehard conservative and capitalist. 

That comment, though...

My 5 year old is sitting next to me. He only has one fully functioning lung; he was born with a hole in his heart; he had growths in his chest; he can't seem to grow, and he has little energy. The accessible, albeit expensive, medical care he has access to saved him; he is still under their care, and God-willing, they will continue to work those wonderful brains God gave them and maybe be able to tell us why things still aren't working out for him the way we had hoped, even after his surgery.

I can't fathom the idea of commenting directly to that poster, because really - going into debt for this little guy is a no-brainer for us, and we would do it a million times over. 

But hey - it's just a fancy diagnosis. Who needs two healthy lungs, a healthy heart, and a healthy vascular system? Luckily he's oblivious to the ridiculousness that is that mindset... and he has eyes only for Minecraft and purple-striped-unicorns kissing dinosaurs in the sky (don't ask - bath time conversations, lol).

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Aimee, we could post so many photos of our beautiful children who need health care. Each and every child is a precious reason why we know the good old days weren't good for the sick, weak, and poor, and why we're thankful that they may live now.

 

It was an ignorant, cold comment and it hurt so many of us because such a callous and wicked perspective is not often found in discussions amongst devoted MOTHERS. We were shocked and hurt.

 

But we're in the right. You know it. Your beautiful boy knows it. I will say a prayer that each of us can put this behind us tonight (and put that poster on ignore) and go on with our very correct attitudes of love and thankfulness for our priceless, not expensive but priceless, children.

[Χά�ων]

There are people on this board who have, or who have children who have, serious enough medical conditions (as in, no medical care = death) who may just take offense to that statement.

Yes, yes I did take offense.

[AimeeM]

Yes, yes I did take offense.

I'm sorry. I know the feeling. I've heard it before (in real life; different perspective, but same context - survival of the fittest and all that nonsense), but I didn't expect it here.

[DawnM]

I'm not suprised they would say that...we earn over $100 000 and struggle to pay the bills. We have two almost dead cars...rent because we can't afford to buy.

Because of our income we recieve no benefits and pay for everything. Every time I go to the doctor I pay $68 ( yeah so much for universal healthcare). I pay upfront for x-rays, ultrasounds, MRIs to the tune of $500 each. Blood tests seem to be the only thing we bulk bill for.

No rent assistance so we have pay extremely high rent.

We recieved no school kids bonus this year...$600 I had to pull out of our already stretched budget.

No electricity discounts.

No gas discounts.

No Tax Benefits A or B

 

I have many lower income friends who do extremely well...better then we do..and the amount of free things they qualify for is amazing. They have nicer cars...own houses.

To live comfortably in Australia I think $200 000 and up would be the goal.

 

The higher the income the less tax breaks and discounts and goverment help...that is often forgotten by people " looking up". They snark about how hard it must be for people on higher incomes to live when they manage on lower...but they have no idea. There are many weeks we eat peanut butter sandwiches to make ends meet just as much as they do. We never go on vacation. Some weeks we don't even have gas for the car. We don't even have any debt we are paying except one small loan almost paid off. Its just cost of living expenses. We earn more so we pay more.

 

 

The bolded has to do with your individual insurance plan.  There are many making more than $100K who only pay their co-pays and have MRIs covered.

[ikslo]

(*Warning paranoia follows*) LOL!! This is just one of the many reasons (not even in the top 20!) why DH and I (and DS10) are going to start sailing and work toward getting a sailboat.... when the poop hits the fan, we'll be halfway to the Carribean ;)  Savy?

 

That's DH's plan as well! He even started taking sailing lessons this year.  We've started decluttering our belongings to prepare for the cramped liveaboard lifestyle.  Hey, one can dream.

[prairiewindmomma]

People with chronic medical conditions have lots of co-pays for dr visits and medicines. It's not just the occasional $200-300/month that you have to come up with to cover a doctor visit and a prescription. It's $$$-$$$$/month every month until you hit your max out. It can make the first few months of every year very difficult.

[readinmom]

Yes.  When Husband was unemployed for three years, we definitely cut back enormously, but we had a cushion built upon: savings, good credit, existing mortgage, no need to buy much because already had most of our needs (house, cars in good condition, clothing, furniture) plus intangible aspects (education, confidence, etc.) built up over years of comfort.

 

Yes, this exactly.  When dh's company closed, it was a rough 2 1/2 years for us.  It made us examine needs vs. wants with a microscope.  During all of it, no matter how bad it got, we knew had it better than what is being described as the bottom 10%.  

[Openhearted]

Aimee, I have read your posts on the education boards here and over at MP, and just wanted to say you are doing a good job, and may God Bless you and your family. I don't post a lot (unless it's BaW thread), but this really touched me today. I felt as if I needed to say keep up the good work. :)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

nm, tmi

[LucyStoner]

I'd write a post here but I really have to go tell my husband that our son has the luxury of his fancy highfalutin diagnosis and then we will be busy laughing our asses off until sometime next week.

[sewingmama]

The bolded has to do with your individual insurance plan. There are many making more than $100K who only pay their co-pays and have MRIs covered.

Not in Australia. We supposedly have universal healthcare...until you earn a ton of money and find out that you don't.

 

Health insurance here is generally not worth it unless you have a lot of medical needs. It's very expensive and barely covers anything...so you still end up paying a lot out of pocket.

 

If I am admitted to a public hospital ...its all free. If I need outpatient testing etc etc...it is not. We don't qualify for a health care card which means I pay upfront or the doctor refuses to see me. Yes...this does and has happened to me ...even in Australia ...though you generally don't know about it if you have a lower income.

It's something other Australians don't even believe when I tell them I have been refused medical care becuase I didn't have the $68 available to pay immediately. No credit allowed..see you later...come back when you have the money.

 

And then they wonder why the hospital emergency rooms are overcrowded with people who have minor illnesses...probably couldn't afford to see their GP either.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

That's DH's plan as well! He even started taking sailing lessons this year.  We've started decluttering our belongings to prepare for the cramped liveaboard lifestyle.  Hey, one can dream.

 

We switching to a minimalist lifestyle too! But not to prepare for sailing- just because I'm getting tired of cleaning up all this crap!

 

We live near Annapolis, so there are plenty of sailing schools around and we are going to ask for sailing lessons (some year, from our families) for Christmas :)

 

Have you read the blog, www.lahowind.com? It's good :)

 

To make this relevant- as we get closer to reaching the $150K mark, I realize even more what I already knew.... money does not buy happiness. All this stuff that I have wasted money on is a burden. I hate cleaning it up, organizing it, dusting it, putting it back after the kids take it out (a million times a day!!), etc.

Have you guys ever seen that "Happy" documentary? It's really good, and it echoes what I was feeling in my heart. Nice cars, big houses, lots of high end electronics (which we don't have!) do not make you happy.

 

We are trying to move away from buying stuff and spending on experiences. Vacations. Bowling. Ziplining. Stuff like that.

 

And, even more than before, we are making it a priority to shop at local businesses, buy local food, buy American made products. Buy products that are eco-friendly, and help lift people out of poverty- instead of contributing to slave labor. (Alaffia is one of my favorites!!) I really feel like this is one way to try and change our country. If we eradicate slave labor, not only are those people not enslaved, but it makes it less lucrative for comapnies to outsource US jobs overseas. Hopefully the demand for American made, eco friendly, products will bring jobs back to the US.

 

Anyways, that's what I tell myself :)

 

I know not everyone can spend their money like this, but I feel that those of us who can, should try really hard to. It gives us more power to change the world. And it makes me happier when I know the things I'm buying are good for the Earth and the people in it.

 

Buying the cheap, made in China, bought at Wal-Mart products just adds billions into the pockets of those 1% that control the government. (And I know that for some of you, you don't have a choice- you lack the funds for/access to anything else- I know that, and I'm sorry- but it doesn't make it any less true, you know?) Like I said, if more of us who can, do- the more available and accessable those products will be for everyone else.

 

I really do believe this kind of "activism" is the only chance we have to affect change in this country.

 

 

[AimeeM]

Not in Australia. We supposedly have universal healthcare...until you earn a ton of money and find out that you don't.

 

Health insurance here is generally not worth it unless you have a lot of medical needs. It's very expensive and barely covers anything...so you still end up paying a lot out of pocket.

 

If I am admitted to a public hospital ...its all free. If I need outpatient testing etc etc...it is not. We don't qualify for a health care card which means I pay upfront or the doctor refuses to see me. Yes...this does and has happened to me ...even in Australia ...though you generally don't know about it if you have a lower income.

It's something other Australians don't even believe when I tell them I have been refused medical care becuase I didn't have the $68 available to pay immediately. No credit allowed..see you later...come back when you have the money.

 

And then they wonder why the hospital emergency rooms are overcrowded with people who have minor illnesses...probably couldn't afford to see their GP either.

It's similar here... but in general, the public hospitals have the specialists needed, and if it's needed, they can't (to the best of my knowledge) turn you away. Oh, they can (and will) bill you, but they can't turn you away if you're referred to a specialist within the hospital (including diagnostics). 

In fact, I've never been asked (and we have private healthcare) to pay up front - they generally need to check with insurance to see what can be billed, what will be covered, etc, and that can take some time. We just get the bill in the mail after the hospital billing department has talked to our insurance. 

I have no clue if it's that way all over the US... but that's how it is here. 

[AimeeM]

Aimee, I have read your posts on the education boards here and over at MP, and just wanted to say you are doing a good job, and may God Bless you and your family. I don't post a lot (unless it's BaW thread), but this really touched me today. I felt as if I needed to say keep up the good work. :)

That's kind; thank you. I don't feel like I'm doing a good job lately, but I'm uber touchy today, so there's that, lol. 

[DawnM]

Not in Australia. We supposedly have universal healthcare...until you earn a ton of money and find out that you don't.

 

Health insurance here is generally not worth it unless you have a lot of medical needs. It's very expensive and barely covers anything...so you still end up paying a lot out of pocket.

 

If I am admitted to a public hospital ...its all free. If I need outpatient testing etc etc...it is not. We don't qualify for a health care card which means I pay upfront or the doctor refuses to see me. Yes...this does and has happened to me ...even in Australia ...though you generally don't know about it if you have a lower income.

It's something other Australians don't even believe when I tell them I have been refused medical care becuase I didn't have the $68 available to pay immediately. No credit allowed..see you later...come back when you have the money.

 

And then they wonder why the hospital emergency rooms are overcrowded with people who have minor illnesses...probably couldn't afford to see their GP either.

 

 

Oh, sorry, I missed that you are in Australia. Since the OP was US stats, I just wasn't thinking of anyone being overseas.......short sighted.

[Joker]

I thought the ACA mandated a free doctor, dental and vision checkup each year for children??

 

My mind is still boggled that some people think every kids should get a chance to go to Disney. Huh??

 

I think everyone gets a free checkup every year from a medical doctor but, to my knowledge, dental and vision are not included. We have dental insurance and get two free checkups per year. We opted out of dh's vision insurance this year because it's actually better and cheaper to pay VSP on our own than what they were offering. None of the visits are free (even under dh's employers plan) but they are discounted.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think everyone gets a free checkup every year from a medical doctor but, to my knowledge, dental and vision are not included. We have dental insurance and get two free checkups per year. We opted out of dh's vision insurance this year because it's actually better and cheaper to pay VSP on our own than what they were offering. None of the visits are free (even under dh's employers plan) but they are discounted.

Dental and vision are included for children only.  But I think they have to have separate plans to get it.  At least that's why dd and ds have their own plans separate from mine.  

[idnib]

. 

 

[mommymilkies]

SOME go through life and do not need medical care and will live into their elder years.  Many others do not.

 

I didn't exactly ask for my brain tumor, nor do I feel I could fix it by myself.  I don't particularly like living with the side effects of treatment, but if I understand the powers that be correctly, the other option was to let it grow, cut into a branch of my carotid artery (which the tumor surrounds) and die early.

 

While I'd have loved to "fix it" myself and did toy with the idea of que sera, sera it was nice to have a medical option WITHOUT breaking the bank or having to declare bankruptcy.

 

And there's no way I'd want to set a broken bone by myself or try to fix messed up blood vessels in the event of an accident of any sort.

 

These things are all luck of the draw for the most part.  Some could choose death if that's their preference, but it ought to be a choice - not a mandate due to income.

Dontcha know essential oils you grew and made yourself would have fixed you?

 

I'm a crunchy gal, but good golly, some of these comments about not needing doctors are just insane. I guess I should have just fed my young child with profound Hashimoto's some dirt and prayed it out.  That way we don't have to pay the gas money and copay so she can live.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Is that going to require a copay to fix?

 

I have already confirmed that my insurance will do nothing for fallen asses. Sigh.

[mommymilkies]

I rarely see anyone mention the fact that a lot of the people who are stuck in these lower paying jobs are often stuck there because they don't have the intellectual ability to do much else. Being smart enough to work your tail off and succeed isn't a given.

Wait...a lot of people in "lower paying jobs" don't have the intellectual ability to do much else?  And "being smart enough to work your tail off and succeed"? Ummm... I'm just not sure what to say here.  Can you clarify or is this really as ridiculous as it sounds. 

[unsinkable]

Minnie...don't you work in healthcare? And isn't your son an ER doc?

 

What does he think of all these new fancypants diagnoses like Lyme and countchoculiitis and fibromyalgia and crohn's and spontaneous dental hydroplosion?

 

:confused:

[Wildcat]

Minnie...don't you work in healthcare? And isn't your son an ER doc?

 

What does he think of all these new fancypants diagnoses like Lyme and countchoculiitis and fibromyalgia and crohn's and spontaneous dental hydroplosion?

 

:confused:

 

I was thinking the same thing. My mouth literally fell open reading her posts, knowing her family's ties to providing the very care she said people could do without. I was hoping she didn't intend her posts they way they sounded but I can't think of any other way to 'read' them.

[unsinkable]

I was thinking the same thing. My mouth literally fell open reading her posts, knowing her family's ties to providing the very care she said people could do without. I was hoping she didn't intend her posts they way they sounded but I can't think of any other way to 'read' them.

Back in the day, we didn't even have mitochondria. And when we DID get mitochondria we knew well enough to take darn good care of it...because we weren't getting any more! We knew the value of a buck and that mitochondria didn't grow on trees. And when it was gone, it was gone so don't come crying to me! Or else.

 

Oh...and we certainly didn't let our mitochondria get diseased. That's what Bad Girls did who ended up going to visit their aunt out in California.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Yes, I have been called insane many times. But, I have crawled out of poverty to a life in the top 1%, although admittedly I go back and forth in income multiple times in my lifetime. My poverty years were spent as a teenage single mom without help from family or the government.

 

I am much more interested in how people live on less than what they make, however, than what they make. I have friends who make almost zero who live just as fulfilling a life as my friends who make a ton of money.

 

I have several friends now who are homesteaders. They have no electricity and no plumbing. My friends live in Florida and Tennessee, so winter freezing is not as much as an issue as the homesteaders in Alaska which I have read about. Anything they need is crafted or mostly bartered. When they need cash, they sell something they have made or been given. I am quite taken with the lifestyle as it appears much less stressful than my own.

 

The friends I have who make a ton of money are now more interested in creating free time than money, for the most part it seems.

 

No, one does not NEED medical care. People were surviving long before there were doctors and nurses and CT scans. True, one may not live as long, or may live longer whatever the case may be. And it depends on if one's definition of medical care includes life at all costs vs. just life until death whenever that may occur. I have had the pleasure of meeting quite a few elders over the years who have never seen a doctor. They had their babies at home, set their own broken bones, and treated ailments with home remedies. Yes, they might have died of a heart attack at age 40 or cancer at age 35. But, they didn't. So they never needed a doctor. Their children did not have fancy diagnoses like autism spectrum or mitochondrial diseases. But, they did the best they could with what they had. So be it. Is it the best way to live? Not for me. But it is a possibility for those who live extremely frugally.

 

So what sets apart the 1%ers and homesteaders who are not financially handicapped vs. those who live tied to their finances? Sounds like someone needs to start another post because I am feeling a little insane.

 

Run with that feeling. 

 

[Murphy101]

Yes, yes I did take offense.

Me too. For my husband. For my kids. For friends. For anyone.

[IsabelC]

What you describe here is definitely not a lifestyle that would be sustainable by a family earning the median.  Someone earning the current median wouldn't be able to live in your COL area, even, and definitely does not live a "fairly similar lifestyle overall."  40K a year would not allow this even in a low COL area.

 

4 new appliances doesn't cut into your "lifestyle"?  Guilt free Starbucks?  1-3 vacations...A YEAR?

 

You are definitely elite by today's standards, even when you try to protest to the contrary. 

 

I don't judge you for your money, and I am sure you/your DH have received quality educations and earn your money.  But please don't try to pretend that we are living similar lifestyles.

 

But remember that wealth is always highly contextual. So in places where rates of absolute poverty are very low, you tend to find proportionally higher rates of relative poverty.

 

That description, while not rating anywhere near "elite" from my point of view, does sound like what I'd call "rich people", because I live in a relatively low socio-economic status area, and many people I know don't have anywhere near that level of wealth. For example, to me,  purchasing a new (or near new) motor vehicle is just as out of reach as purchasing a private jet. However, if Woolysocks lives in an area where that level of wealth is about average, then she isn't going to feel particularly rich, regardless of her position in the hypothetical wealth rankings.

[mommymilkies]

Run with that feeling. 

 

Great.  Now I just spit milk out everywhere.  Dude, I can't waste milk like this.  Please think of me next time. :D

[IsabelC]

Not in Australia. We supposedly have universal healthcare...until you earn a ton of money and find out that you don't.

 

Health insurance here is generally not worth it unless you have a lot of medical needs. It's very expensive and barely covers anything...so you still end up paying a lot out of pocket.

 

If I am admitted to a public hospital ...its all free. If I need outpatient testing etc etc...it is not. We don't qualify for a health care card which means I pay upfront or the doctor refuses to see me. Yes...this does and has happened to me ...even in Australia ...though you generally don't know about it if you have a lower income.

It's something other Australians don't even believe when I tell them I have been refused medical care becuase I didn't have the $68 available to pay immediately. No credit allowed..see you later...come back when you have the money.

 

And then they wonder why the hospital emergency rooms are overcrowded with people who have minor illnesses...probably couldn't afford to see their GP either.

 

I forget where you are, but it's nothing like that here (southern Tasmania). We've had all kinds of doctor, hospital admissions, outpatient appointments, etc. stuff, we don't have private health,  and we hardly ever pay for anything (directly, I mean - obviously we pay our share of Medicare levies). We are sometimes on a health care card and sometimes not (variable income, they cancel our card every time we exceed the low income limit and we have to reapply when income reduces), but even now, when we don't qualify for a card, all our GP visits are bulk billed, as well as the kids' dental, optometrist, autism stuff. I can only think of one thing we have had to pay for in the last year.

[BlsdMama]

 

You said "driving distance".  How does one afford a car?   Owning a car is very expensive around here. 

 

 

 

Or using public transportation, or carpooling, whatever is available.

 

In undergrad I shared a car with my parents and siblings.  (There was no public transport there.)  We had to coordinate a lot, but we figured it out.  In grad school my mom dropped me off one August day, and I occasionally hopped a ride home with someone who commuted weekly (her kid was in Jr High and staying with grandparents during the week).  A friend and I bought a very old car for $450 in my 2nd or 3rd year of grad school.  Ah, memories...

 

It is not very expensive to own a car around here.  But it may not be the most economical solution.  Parking at big universities often isn't free.

 

That's the truth. Ana's commuter parking pass is $450/ year. Oh, but wait, it doesn't cover summers. She got a free ride so, yes, they exist. But she drives 50 miles each way. We had to have a third vehicle, complete with plates, stickers, and insurance. Because of the commute and because she's a freshman her schedule really doesn't allow for working. Plus she's on merit scholarship so it's imperative her grades stay up. She got enough aid to cover her tuition, her books, and some of the gas cost to commute. Shes a wonderful student, made Deans list and FULLY understands she needs to keep that high GPA. Even though, our understanding is that universities often pull funding junior year when they can no longer transfer without losing credits. Our solution? Stack credits. 18 last semester, 19 this semester (needed permission and a high GPA) and 12 this summer. She'll be five credits from being a junior next fall. Stack again next year and hopefully only have to go one year on diminished financial aid.

 

But this is the perfect example. This is a girl who is working her tail off and studies, studies, studies. She doesn't have time to work. There is NO WAY she could live in her own, have time to do laundry, grocery shop, pay her own bills, and succeed in keeping her merit aid.

 

Support is VITAL to college students success in the working class.

 

And yet this is precisely he class that doesn't understand how it all functions not how to advise.

 

DH was the first person in his family to get a four year degree and then a graduate degree. Advice? You'll make a ton so loans are no big deal. Well, four years of the military helped pay off the B of S degree. We still have loans from his grad degrees. He worked full time, went to school during the day, and delivered pizzas on the weekend when we were first married and had one child. After that he was in the military and taking classes to get his Masters of S degrees and his MBA. It's still amazing to me that he did this. But, again, support, though it was a different sort... More that he pushed himself to take care of his family.

 

Yes, people can do it, but it's HARD. Crazy hard. I don't think I could do what either of them have or are doing. Glad she takes after her dAd. ;) Or maybe she's young and doesn't know how hard she's working, lol.

 

Getting to middle class is harder than one thinks.

 

I'll be honest. Our two oldest girls want to stay home with their kids and they are both planning their degrees around careers that they can do "on the side" and working hard so they don't bring student loans into a marriage.

[BlsdMama]

I could give, and have given, lessons in black belt tightwaddery. I have lived without running water, without a bed, without any heat but an old woodstove. I have gardened, hung the laundry (which I scrubbed on a genuine washboard), washed my hair outdoors in water toted from a relative's house as my only option, and frankly gone very, very hungry. I've walked with cardboard in my shoes to stop some of the leaks from puddles coming in the holes. I have lived in dilapidated trailers where the mice ran over me as I slept on the cold floor in winter. I have lived in a tent down by the lake, not in pretty summertime weather on vacation from a real home, but the other kind of scenario. I have lived in urban housing with gunfire whizzing past my bedroom window. I have lived places where nobody stirs a step outdoors after dark. I have lived without healthcare, suffering chronic pleurisy, lupus complications, bad teeth, a leg deformity that makes walking painful at times, and lack of information on nutrition leading to all sorts of ills.

 

The whole time, I had a painfully clear view of how the nice people live. They were my friends. I was in their homes. I went to schools with their children. I was part of their churches. If I'd been kept from that exposure, say, through homeschooling, I'd have never known my options. I'd have never guessed how to leverage my gifts toward increasing skills. I'd have never known that no child should have to live that way.

 

And I did grow up to get vocational training and to work in an inner-city clinic, helping people whom I understood (the hard way) to know how to feed their children and why they must bring them in for checkups and vaccinations. I grew up to hit nowhere near the 1% but as an American citizen with a good marriage, provided-for children, a mortgage and a car I believe I'm in the top 3% globally which is pretty damn impressive to me.

 

That's why I know, and I mean I really know, how asinine, ignorant, unloving, and dangerous it is to tell people they don't need heating or health care. I'm not buying anything less. If grown adults want to play Grizzly Adams in the woods, more power to them, a lot of that lifestyle appeals to me, too. But if they are dragging their kids out there where they're going to be deprived, too, while parents lose their sense of perspective and become accepting of increasingly unacceptable living conditions for their kids, that's where you lose me.

 

You have children, you work your ass off to provide for them. I don't mean keeping up with the Joneses. I mean that your personal, self-serving upwardly mobile climb is on hold while you do whatever you have to do to keep those babies safe. This is how people end up utilizing crappy public schools, taking the government cheese, living with $40,000 in debt hanging over their heads instead of "living like no one else now so they can live like no one else later," as one financial guru (whose kids never went hungry) put it.

 

And part of that is to provide a warm, clean home, and have medical insurance and doctors at the ready, if at all possible. It takes just one event to learn how much you need health care, and sometimes the person who has that event in the family is a child. ACA promises are not coming true. Nobody should count on them, nor rest easy that improvements will stay if they are here for awhile. Now, if you can't provide that home (to your own financial detriment), well, that's the reality for a million families. Something must be done (which may or may not have been the point of this thread in the first place). If you can't get the food, medicine, clothing for them no matter how you shelve your own interests, that's a problem. You need solutions, neighbors, government. There's no sin or crime in that.

 

But to CHOOSE it. To legitimately have that choice and choose deprivation for your children while you save money is miserly, cheap, self-serving, and wrong.

.

 

I really like you right now. Lots.

 

Fancy diseases like mitochondrial disease, autism, etc. Cough. It's happened. For the first time ever, I'm speechless.

[LucyStoner]

Is that going to require a copay to fix?

I dunno. Maybe we will get a discount on our insurance for having smaller asses.

[SKL]

 I'd say multiple vacations a year, of any type, put you in some sort of upper tier.

 

When I was a kid, we would go primitive camping over 3-day weekends (usually July 4th / Labor Day).  Or once every several years we'd go to an amusement park within an hour's drive.  Those were our vacations as a working class family.  We loved them (except my mom - she tolerated them).  When I was 11 my parents finally had a week-long vacation and we stayed in a cabin in a state park.  That was our last and best family vacation.

 

Actually Las Vegas is a relatively cheap vacation.  Round trip airfare is cheap and a modest hotel with free buffet food is way cheap.  One year my mom and her friend went there (without kids).  Of course taking the whole family was out of the question (not that Las Vegas is a great place for kids anyway).  My dad's getaways were overnights with his gun club.

[Serenade]

 

 

I don't hang out the washing.  :)  I would if I had to, but it would be kind of interesting in the winter ....

 

Frozen sheets are kinda fun.

 

I miss line-dried laundry.  There are not too many places in my area where one is allowed to hang laundry.  Frankly, I think it should be against the law to forbid the hanging of laundry.

[LucyStoner]

But even if you are at the grandparents' for a week, even three times a year, it means you have a job where either you have enough money to cover the lost wages for those days OR you have a job where you can telecommute while on vacation for a week OR you have a job that has generous vacation time. Or some combination of those. Working class people don't have several weeks of time off from their job available to them, even if their only expense for the vacation is gas to get the Grandma's. I'd say multiple vacations a year, of any type, put you in some sort of upper tier.

A lot of people are seasonally unemployed. A school lunch lady. A tech contractor on letter of the law furlough. Construction workers in some climates. A fisherman who is home for weeks at a time between assignments. A teacher.

 

And some very working class jobs come with time off. My husband works a technician level hospital job. That's not not working class. He gets quite a bit of PTO a year (more than a month since he gets sick days, vacation and holidays in one bank since they are open 24/7/365) plus he works a 4 day week which allows us to take a long weekend for cheap camping fairly easily. When I worked FT most of my non-profit employers offered 3, 4 or even 5 weeks vacation a year as a compensation for the lower salary scale. We were solidly middle class/median income in a HCOL area with both of us working. I would call this degree of time off very fortunate, but it's definitely not unheard of even in the working class. Especially with how hard it was in the recession to find second and temp jobs, people got time off even if they didn't very much want it. Unless working class is being used as a euphemism for minimum wage no benefits dirt poor workers, I don't think time off from work is unheard of in the working class.

 

We like to camp and hike. While the equipment isn't free, it was accumulated over years mostly at bargain basement and thrift store/garage sale prices. There are lots of places we can go under an hours drive, and more places than we could cross off the list in a life time of camping and backpacking within a 5 hours drive. It's awesome for us that we have been able to do this, but it doesn't mean that we are in an upper tier for income by any means at all.

[Mergath]

No, one does not NEED medical care. People were surviving long before there were doctors and nurses and CT scans. True, one may not live as long, or may live longer whatever the case may be. And it depends on if one's definition of medical care includes life at all costs vs. just life until death whenever that may occur. I have had the pleasure of meeting quite a few elders over the years who have never seen a doctor. They had their babies at home, set their own broken bones, and treated ailments with home remedies. Yes, they might have died of a heart attack at age 40 or cancer at age 35. But, they didn't. So they never needed a doctor. Their children did not have fancy diagnoses like autism spectrum or mitochondrial diseases. But, they did the best they could with what they had. So be it. Is it the best way to live? Not for me. But it is a possibility for those who live extremely frugally.

 

So what sets apart the 1%ers and homesteaders who are not financially handicapped vs. those who live tied to their finances? Sounds like someone needs to start another post because I am feeling a little insane.

 

What a relief.  I'll just run and tell my dh that he doesn't need medical care for his fancy COPD and asthma diagnoses.  I mean, he'll probably suffocate in bed some night without his meds, but wanting to live no matter the cost is so selfish, right?  So much better to be dead than to live tied to your finances, after all.

 

I guess I'd better treat my own epilepsy, too.  Maybe I can barter for some kind of medicinal tree root and grind it up into tea.  By candlelight, of course.  

 

:001_rolleyes: