WDYT? Top ten percent of households (income)

[Tanaqui]

in case you missed it, my point was that the majority of people are capable of choosing a field that can earn them a high wage if they want to.

 

Okay, so once the supply of natural resources managers*, air traffic controllers, and engineers goes waaaay up, and the demand stays the same, what do you think is going to happen to their wages?

 

* All jobs cribbed from here, except engineer, which I just crammed in there for lulz.

[creekland]

Joanne, I see great value in your comment too.  But you are living proof, are you not, of what hard work and determination can achieve.

 

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that hard work and determination are worthless or negligible in the equation - only that they are not enough for some to get to certain points in life including academic success in such fields as engineering or medicine or even college in general.

 

For those who are capable, hard work and determination sure help - as does luck - whether that luck is the birth lottery or something else.

[Joanne]

I NEVER said that.  I worked as a CNA putting myself through nursing school.  Pull a couple double shifts changing diapers in a nursing home where 80% of the staff is out sick with stomach flu too and then tell me I don't understand that hard work doesn't automatically lead to more money.  Not everyone wants more money.  Context is your friend.  The context has been stated repeatedly, but in case you missed it, my point was that the majority of people are capable of choosing a field that can earn them a high wage if they want to.  Not everyone wants to.  Some people prefer a more holistic life, as you put it.  Some people do hard, dirty jobs because they are important. 

 

I have read your posts, in context, as written.

The "holistic" you refer to isn't about life, but evidence based career planning. It's - I'll use a non clinical word - stupid to assume that everyone can or should choose STEM jobs.

 

And you don't want to play the "whose worked harder" game with me.

 

Your solution simply *isn't* one. Or, it is a solution for only a select few.

 

 

[Greta]

See now I agree that people do best when they are in the niche that matches their talent and desire.  But I disagree that just because someone is an average student now that means they aren't capable.  My mother was an average student in high school.  She had a lot of family drama and she had to grow up and get out of the house to discover she was interested in school.  More than a decade later she went back and, now with the desire to focus on it she discovered she could do very well.  She aced Calculus when she'd previously had teachers tell her she was incapable of basic math.  She made the Dean's List.   She went to grad school, did the work, but to this day she still is surprised at how capable she is when she works hard.

 

 

 

I think there is a world of difference between being capable of acing a calculus course, and being capable of getting any degree that you want.  I'm someone who falls into the former category, but not the latter.

 

I worked very hard in high school because I knew that paying for college was 100% my responsibility, my parents weren't going to help me.  I'm also a reasonably intelligent person, not a genius by any stretch, but above average.  I made such a good score on my ACT that I got a full ride to college.  And I aced my first calculus course.  Almost effortlessly.

 

But here's the thing.  Calculus is just the first of MANY math courses that you take to get a degree in math, physics, or engineering.  Lots of us are capable of passing what is essentially an introductory course, but that in no way means that we'd be capable of passing the rest of the coursework.  I was not afraid of hard work, but I simply was incapable of math at that level.  Once I got beyond Calc 1 and took an honest look at the coursework that was ahead of me, I realized that I was in over my head.  I simply could not do it, and no amount of wishful thinking or hard work was going to change that fact.  I chose a different degree, one which was no less work, but was work that I was actually capable of doing.  I respectfully but very strongly disagree with your assertion that intelligent people can get a degree in whatever field they choose.  There are some fields that are simply out of reach for certain people, and some that are out of reach for many people.  There's no shame in that.  It's just a fact.

[Greta]

Determination and work ethic are vastly underrated.

In the land of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps"???

 

I think that in American culture, work ethic is valued so much that it is too often assumed that anyone who hasn't succeeded just didn't want it bad enough.

[creekland]

Lots of us are capable of passing what is essentially an introductory course, but that in no way means that we'd be capable of passing the rest of the coursework.  I was not afraid of hard work, but I simply was incapable of math at that level.  Once I got beyond Calc 1 and took an honest look at the coursework that was ahead of me, I realized that I was in over my head.  I simply could not do it, and no amount of wishful thinking or hard work was going to change that fact.  I chose a different degree, one which was no less work, but was work that I was actually capable of doing.  I respectfully but very strongly disagree with your assertion that intelligent people can get a degree in whatever field they choose.  There are some fields that are simply out of reach for certain people, and some that are out of reach for many people.  There's no shame in that.  It's just a fact.

 

I'm jealous that you figured out your incapability after one course.  I started in Computer Science.  It took me a year and a half to figure out there was no way I was going to be able to do that major, much less keep up with those with true talent in it.  The course where I figured it out was my one and only F in my life.  Then I switched to Physics/Math (minor in math, but the two go together) which was MUCH easier to comprehend for me - and still allowed me to keep my AFROTC scholarship.  I added Psych to give myself a break from the other courses - plus - it just interested me.

 

My youngest dropped his computer course in the middle of last semester.  Apparently my genetics were passed on.

 

Knowing that anyone can do anything with enough work has had me wondering how long it would take Regentrude and I to master ballet together to where we could audition somewhere nice.  I suspect it could go viral on YouTube, but I might not ever be able to return to work with the high school students.   :lol:

[SarahB82]

I have enjoyed reading all of the posts shared today. I generally just read- most of the time everything I am thinking someone else has already said. I am not a troll, just a nurse and homeschool mom from Alabama. I have to travel at least 4 miles to even get to a bridge from my house in the woods at the end of a long dirt road.

[Catwoman]

I have enjoyed reading all of the posts shared today. I generally just read- most of the time everything I am thinking someone else has already said. I am not a troll, just a nurse and homeschool mom from Alabama. I have to travel at least 4 miles to even get to a bridge from my house in the woods at the end of a long dirt road.

I don't think you are a troll. :)

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have enjoyed reading all of the posts shared today. I generally just read- most of the time everything I am thinking someone else has already said. I am not a troll, just a nurse and homeschool mom from Alabama. I have to travel at least 4 miles to even get to a bridge from my house in the woods at the end of a long dirt road.

Well, you have my seal of approval (for whatever that's worth!)  I hope that you share other thoughts with us.  We don't always agree but that's ok.  

[Joanne]

Joanne, I see great value in your comment too.  But you are living proof, are you not, of what hard work and determination can achieve.

 

 

 

Thank you, and yes, I have worked (and continue to work) hard.

 

But I already had 2 undergrad degrees (which where also hard work, and I paid my own way and worked both on and off campus). It was luck that I was able to get a job at the school my kids would attend, and luck that such a school existed. It's luck that my kids were able to go to the graduate school when they still homeschooled. It was luck that I was able to get a job at the graduate school and have my last semester paid after working a year. It was luck that when my home foreclosed, I had a friend whose parents had a home they couldn't sell and they would rent to me. It was luck that (at the time), I had a husband who could handle the (to him step) kids, meals, laundry.

 

I was able to transcend the quagmire of low income for a variety of reasons. But I was IN the cycle long enough to know how people, sometimes smart, capable people, get stuck. How getting a better job doesn't pay enough "more" to exceed the monies lost in food stamps, health insurance. How a string of low paying jobs makes it very difficult to return to school. How health, sleep, and bodies are compromised. I'm certain a signficant part of my obesity is directly related to that time in my life.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I suppose the real question is what the one percent make. 

 

A crap load more than the top 9 percent under them.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I suppose the real question is what the one percent make. 

 

You can google around, but the prediction is that by 2016 the top 1% will own half the world's wealth. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

We have owned a CPA firm for over 25 years and I have seen a lot of employees come and go over the years, so I think I can speak with some authority about it.

 

The fact is that a basic bookkeeping job might not be out of reach for many people, but far fewer people can pass the CPA exam or grasp the abstract concepts needed for a career in accounting or finance. It is far more than just filling out forms and doing data entry. We have had some excellent employees over the years, but some of them were not capable of doing more than being a receptionist or a file clerk or a basic bookkeeper -- and we did provide them with the opportunity to learn new skills and advance within the company; they simply did not have the ability to grasp more advanced concepts.

 

I am not sure why you seem so intent on proving that anyone can do almost any job. Do you not acknowledge that people have different levels of intellectual ability?

 

I thought I was going to go into accounting.  It was what I chose as my major at first.  HAHAHA.....Forget about it. 

[BlsdMama]

I didn't make up a single one of those options.  I know at least one person who did every single thing listed there, and for most of them, many people.  The exception being Udacity, for which I know only one person, who couldn't get a job outside of call center customer service.  You don't have to have a degree to be a programmer, you just have to program.  And yes, he didn't have internet access at home, and worked out an arrangement with a librarian to be able to spend two hours a day on a programming course on a library computer.  When the librarian saw he was serious and would show up every day, she instead loaned him her netbook so he could spend 3-4 hours per day on it, using the library's wifi.  You learn to program.  You go to a temp agency looking for a programmer.  You take a free proficiency exam, and you get a temporary job.  In three months, if you work hard, you'll probably get hired on in a permanent basis.

 

Paid internships are VERY common in the fields I listed up thread.  

 

And yes, CC costs money, and you're going to need food and housing, but unless you're homeless someone is going to be paying for your food and housing anyway.  And if you are that destitute, chances are your financial aid will be enough to cover community college tuition and books, and you will be able to get loans for housing and a meal plan.  I've had friends who went back as adults with children and got enough financial aid the college was actually paying THEM to go to school.  They still had to get loans for daycare costs, and they were on food stamps, but she graduated fine.

 

ETA:  Forgot about the companies paying for school thing. Starbucks is one of MANY employers who will pay for a degree program.  So does UPS.  Both of them are all over the country, hire a lot of people for about $10/hour, and pay for at least two classes at a time.  Many other employers will reimburse for a course if it is in the field they hire in.  I don't think I've ever worked for a fortune-1000 company that didn't.  Yes, it might take 3-6 months to be eligible, but it is an option.  You can also just take a short course to be an advanced CNA and work for a hospital and they will pay for nursing school.

 

 

As the parent of a college student,  it's not that I don't get what you're saying.

 

BUT I need to point out, that NOW, essentially unless your parents have disowned you or you are supporting a child, you're dependent until you're 26.

 

That means your financial aid is limited.  And goodness help you if your parents won't supply you with their tax info.  At that point you can kiss off scholarships, grants, and probably loans.

[Carrie12345]

 

 

Alg is definitely not more difficult to teach than Calc, but those having difficulties with Calc often have Algebra problems.  That's common.  They ended up memorizing Algebra rather than truly understanding it.  Some people have fantastic memorization skills and our schools often teach things in steps rather than in concepts.

 

 

Just because I haven't thought of anything brilliant to say, I'd like to share that I ACED maths in school. Alg I, Geometry, Alg II (and backwards through grade school)... I did fabulous and rocked the SATs.

 

I dropped out of Pre-Calc when my average was a 40-something percent and nobody could help me.

My SAT scores forced me into Business Calc in college and I lost hundreds of dollars on that failed class and tutors.

 

Just saying!

[Greta]

I'm jealous that you figured out your incapability after one course. I started in Computer Science. It took me a year and a half to figure out there was no way I was going to be able to do that major, much less keep up with those with true talent in it. The course where I figured it out was my one and only F in my life. Then I switched to Physics/Math (minor in math, but the two go together) which was MUCH easier to comprehend for me - and still allowed me to keep my AFROTC scholarship. I added Psych to give myself a break from the other courses - plus - it just interested me.

Oh, sorry I misrepresented myself there. I may have aced calc 1, but calc 2 was a whole different matter! The only D I ever got in my life - guess I was still too ashamed to admit it!

 

I'm in awe of you and others who can get degrees in physics and math!

 

Knowing that anyone can do anything with enough work has had me wondering how long it would take Regentrude and I to master ballet together to where we could audition somewhere nice. I suspect it could go viral on YouTube, but I might not ever be able to return to work with the high school students. :lol:

:D

[SarahB82]

I don't think you are a troll. :)

Thank you again :)

[SarahB82]

Well, you have my seal of approval (for whatever that's worth!) I hope that you share other thoughts with us. We don't always agree but that's ok.

And thank you :)

[Scarlett]

I have enjoyed reading all of the posts shared today. I generally just read- most of the time everything I am thinking someone else has already said. I am not a troll, just a nurse and homeschool mom from Alabama. I have to travel at least 4 miles to even get to a bridge from my house in the woods at the end of a long dirt road.

:)

[creekland]

Just because I haven't thought of anything brilliant to say, I'd like to share that I ACED maths in school. Alg I, Geometry, Alg II (and backwards through grade school)... I did fabulous and rocked the SATs.

 

I dropped out of Pre-Calc when my average was a 40-something percent and nobody could help me.

My SAT scores forced me into Business Calc in college and I lost hundreds of dollars on that failed class and tutors.

 

Just saying!

 

Pre-Calc definitely brings in more abstract (and just plain different) concepts.  Quite a few students hit a wall there.  Some eventually climb over.  Others decide their talents lie elsewhere.  ;)

 

But the math part of the brain is often a later developing section.  If you look at it again now you might just wonder why you had troubles in your earlier years.  ;)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

SarahB82, I didn't think you were a troll. I disagreed with your wording but didn't dislike you upon first sight or anything. I'm sorry if we failed to welcome you to the group! We can be like that sometimes when we're all het up, unfortunately. I know that I, personally, can be a horse's patoot (which is usually regretted the next day but not always). I hope you will stick around. ~Tibbie

[Catwoman]

SarahB82, I didn't think you were a troll. I disagreed with your wording but didn't dislike you upon first sight or anything. I'm sorry if we failed to welcome you to the group! We can be like that sometimes when we're all het up, unfortunately. I know that I, personally, can be a horse's patoot (which is usually regretted the next day but not always). I hope you will stick around. ~Tibbie

I just liked your post and then I realized that it might look like I was agreeing that you can be a horse's patoot. :blush:

 

You know I didn't mean that, right? :)

[Carrie12345]

Pre-Calc definitely brings in more abstract (and just plain different) concepts.  Quite a few students hit a wall there.  Some eventually climb over.  Others decide their talents lie elsewhere.   ;)

 

But the math part of the brain is often a later developing section.  If you look at it again now you might just wonder why you had troubles in your earlier years.   ;)

 

Please don't make me do that. 

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :crying:  :leaving:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I just liked your post and then I realized that it might look like I was agreeing that you can be a horse's patoot. :blush:

 

You know I didn't mean that, right? :)

 

LOL!

[Arcadia]

I have to travel at least 4 miles to even get to a bridge from my house in the woods at the end of a long dirt road.

I don't think you are a troll, just wondering why you say many and confused over the "higher order thinking skills" part. I'm in a densely populated city in Silicon Valley. We are just probably talking pass each other.

 

When the 2009 recession started, some retrenched engineers we know work as auto mechanic (which was their hobby) while job hunting. A friend took a year to land a job after retrenchment. So you really don't know how "over-qualified" someone might be for their job around here.

[idnib]

. 

 

[unsinkable]

I have enjoyed reading all of the posts shared today. I generally just read- most of the time everything I am thinking someone else has already said. I am not a troll, just a nurse and homeschool mom from Alabama. I have to travel at least 4 miles to even get to a bridge from my house in the woods at the end of a long dirt road.

You live in the woods at the end of a dirt road?

 

Have you ever been visited by a wolf with wearing a red-hooded cape?

 

Or is your home perhaps decorated with edible confections?

 

Do you have a son named Jack who makes ill-advised trades with strangers?

[Catwoman]

You live in the woods at the end of a dirt road?

 

Have you ever been visited by a wolf with wearing a red-hooded cape?

 

Or is your home perhaps decorated with edible confections?

 

Do you have a son named Jack who makes ill-advised trades with strangers?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[SarahB82]

You live in the woods at the end of a dirt road?

 

Have you ever been visited by a wolf with wearing a red-hooded cape?

 

Or is your home perhaps decorated with edible confections?

 

Do you have a son named Jack who makes ill-advised trades with strangers?

Yes, from now until forever i do. No wolf but innumerable coyotes. At Christmas, yes, sometimes inside it is. No Jack so far, just a Tyler, Will and ,come Monday, Zeke. 😉

[creekland]

Yes, from now until forever i do. No wolf but innumerable coyotes. At Christmas, yes, sometimes inside it is. No Jack so far, just a Tyler, Will and ,come Monday, Zeke. 😉

 

Sounds like there's still time to change Zeke.  ;)

[TheAutumnOak]

That is very true. We are very close to this income level in a medium high cost of living area. What I'd say we have is no debt other than our mortgage (which will be paid off before our oldest hits college). We have a nice (but not amazing) house in a popular urban neighborhood. 2 functional, fairly new vehicles (but not fancy vehicles). 1-3 vacations a year. I stop at Starbucks guilt free. We eat out on a regular basis. We have a good nest egg for retirement and emergencies don't throw us around the bend. Like last year we had to buy 4 new appliances in a row and replace a vehicle. It was extremely annoying, but it didn't cut into our lifestyle at all. I will also say, we do not really homeschool on the cheap. Both my kids enjoy many enrichment and outside activities. We get a CSA in the summer and we can shop the higher quality grocery options. We do 1-2 house updates a year (we live in a 100 year old home).

 

But if you came to our house and I served you a meal, it would not scream elite by any stretch. I think what separates our lifestyle with someone closer to average is small things like music lessons for kids, shopping at whole foods, and having college and retirement savings. I think we're probably actually living a fairly similar lifestyle overall. And we chose NOT to do some things many families do. Like pay for private school or have cable TV. I usually buy cheap/on sale clothing and loved hand me downs when my kids were smaller.

 

Anyway, "elite" is definitely NOT the right word for the top 10% of anything.

I am not sure what your lifestyle would be called, but I wish I could live it :-)...I think almost everything you mentioned above would be hard for us to do financially...

[Greta]

I think she was talking about the type of discussion in Dweck's Mindset, that Americans are focused on whether someone is smart or a genius and not on putting in the effort or underestimating the amount of effort even geniuses or prodigies need to put in.

 

It's hard to explain without making it sound like a "bootstraps" book but it's not. It's more about focusing on intelligence and mistakenly believing capability is less malleable than it is. It's also about telling kids they're really good at everything (gotta pump up that self-esteem!) so they either don't try hard or they are afraid to fail because they are supposed to be "smart" and get everything.

 

Here's an article.

 

ETA: American culture does do this praising thing a lot more than at least one SE Asian culture I'm familiar with.

 

Ah, I see. Thank you very much for the correction/clarification, and I am sorry, Katy, for misunderstanding you. That's what I get for trying to read through the thread too fast.

[Joanne]

I think she was talking about the type of discussion in Dweck's Mindset, that Americans are focused on whether someone is smart or a genius and not on putting in the effort or underestimating the amount of effort even geniuses or prodigies need to put in. 

 

It's hard to explain without making it sound like a "bootstraps" book but it's not. It's more about focusing on intelligence and mistakenly believing capability is less malleable than it is. It's also about telling kids they're really good at everything (gotta pump up that self-esteem!) so they either don't try hard or they are afraid to fail because they are supposed to be "smart" and get everything.

 

Here's an article.

 

ETA: American culture does do this praising thing a lot more than at least one SE Asian culture I'm familiar with.

 

While I continue to disagree with Katy's perspective and theory, I wanted to thank you for that link. As an Administrator in education and a mental health professional, I really liked the linked article. I've long been against praise as it is typically used in the US, but the research behind why to avoid "smart" praise seems to be compelling.

 

My first interaction with it (the article itself) will be incorporating it into my AP Psychology class in some kind of assignment. It covers a lot of the material we've covered so far, including the need and rigor of psychological research.

[Murphy101]

While I continue to disagree with Katy's perspective and theory, I wanted to thank you for that link. As an Administrator in education and a mental health professional, I really liked the linked article. I've long been against praise as it is typically used in the US, but the research behind why to avoid "smart" praise seems to be compelling.

 

My first interaction with it (the article itself) will be incorporating it into my AP Psychology class in some kind of assignment. It covers a lot of the material we've covered so far, including the need and rigor of psychological research.

My dh just bought me a book called The Anthropology of Learning in Childhood by Lancy, Bock, and Gaskins bc I mentioned a few months ago that the excerpts a friend posted on FB sounded interesting.

 

Can't attest to it yet because I'm not far into it, but I think it is very interesting so far.

 

Just in case anyone is interested. :)

[MistyMountain]

I have Katy's perspective too and I am not at all a bootstrapper. I do know that poverty is extremely hard to crawl out from and most people cannot and it is not because people do not work hard enough. I think policies in place in our country are not enough. Inequality is crazy in the US and we have so much poverty for a developed nation with a high GDP.

 

My perspective comes from a lot of reading on the topic including several books and admiring how many European nations do schooling. I think that having a growth mindset rather then a fixed is a good thing for kids. I think all minds thrive when their interest and passions are explored and I think all kinds of minds are capable of being more educated. Kids need to know it is ok to have to to have to work hard at things. I am not denying nor is any who talks about talent, grit, perserverence or the growth mindset that general intelligence or talent exists but I do not like using that as an excuse why some kids are not thriving under the current system. Things do not stand like that now in this country. A lot of kids end up falling through cracks and getting discouraged and this is especially true in kids with low incomes but there are countries, schools in our country, after school programs, experiments and individuals who have found ways to reach all kinds of kids. There are ways to foster resilience. No place is perfect. A lot of Asian countries have extremely high pressure and kids are in tutoring all day and in some of those countries rural kids do not get a good education. Even in countries where they are doing better over time no nation says things are perfect now. I do believe we can do better though. The linked article is one aspect of fostering growth.

[unsinkable]

Yes, from now until forever i do. No wolf but innumerable coyotes. At Christmas, yes, sometimes inside it is. No Jack so far, just a Tyler, Will and ,come Monday, Zeke. 😉

Are you having a baby or adopting? Congrats!

 

It's be awesome if you ARE a troll, because little troll babies are so dang cute!

[Spryte]

Are you having a baby or adopting? Congrats!

 

It's be awesome if you ARE a troll, because little troll babies are so dang cute!

 

Ooooh, if there's a troll baby, will there be troll dolls?  I learned right here on WTM that troll dolls are particularly devilish.   :D

[Tanaqui]

Ooooh, if there's a troll baby, will there be troll dolls?  I learned right here on WTM that troll dolls are particularly devilish.   :D

 

I can believe it.

 

[Spryte]

I can believe it.

 

That's adorable. I think we need a new school mascot!

[Greta]

Here's an article.

Finally got a chance to read the article, and just wanted to thank you for mentioning it. It was very good. I was familiar with the general idea, but not the details, so it was interesting to read about some of the research.

[creekland]

Reading the Lunatic Express sure has been putting poverty and working poor into perspective worldwide.  I haven't finished the book yet.  I'm still in the Africa section (probably about one third of the way through).  The author of the book, Carl Hoffman, travels the world taking the dangerous forms of transportation that the local (poor) people have at their disposal (overcrowded buses, ferries, trains, etc).  When he was in South America he didn't go into much detail (comparatively), but in Africa he's putting a lot more in there.

 

There are many times I think those of us in first world countries regardless of our income level forget (or just don't realize) how so many live.

 

It's also a good reminder that income and happiness don't correlate.  Income and the opportunity for more toys and better health do, but not necessarily happiness.

[MSNative]

Reading the Lunatic Express sure has been putting poverty and working poor into perspective worldwide. I haven't finished the book yet. I'm still in the Africa section (probably about one third of the way through). The author of the book, Carl Hoffman, travels the world taking the dangerous forms of transportation that the local (poor) people have at their disposal (overcrowded buses, ferries, trains, etc). When he was in South America he didn't go into much detail (comparatively), but in Africa he's putting a lot more in there.

 

There are many times I think those of us in first world countries regardless of our income level forget (or just don't realize) how so many live.

 

It's also a good reminder that income and happiness don't correlate. Income and the opportunity for more toys and better health do, but not necessarily happiness.

Just looking for a new book to read as I managed to plow through much of my stack during these snow days. I read some reviews of it and it looks very interesting. Extra bonus- there's a kindle edition so I can start reading it right away. Thank you for the rec!

[creekland]

Just looking for a new book to read as I managed to plow through much of my stack during these snow days. I read some reviews of it and it looks very interesting. Extra bonus- there's a kindle edition so I can start reading it right away. Thank you for the rec!

 

In the beginning I wasn't sure if it would be boring or just not that interesting, but I kept with it.  Now I'm very interested in seeing where he will go and what he will relate about the "average" person in those areas (not middle class with income, but average by percentage of the population in the area).  I suspect a "tourist" could head to some of these areas and only peripherally see what is going on - esp if they stayed in the tourist sections.

[unsinkable]

That's adorable. I think we need a new school mascot!

:lol:

[MamaBearTeacher]

What about the idea of different intelligences? Maybe the history professor and the mechanic would never be suited to each others' jobs but is either superior? I have met engineers and physicians who I have found to be narrow minded and intelligent people in all kinds of jobs. What about social intelligence and kindness? Don't we all appreciate the person in customer who smiles and treats us kindly?

 

It is not just hard work, intelligence and education that moves people ahead but connections play a huge role and lack of the right connections makes it harder for people to climb out of poverty and get better paying jobs. I think personality plays a role in this too. It is harder for those who are shy, introverted or lack confidence.

 

Now, what about that 1%? I am most curious about them! This would be 1/100 people but I am not sure I have met any of them. Most of the people I have come into contact with during my life were probably in the 50-10% range but maybe nobody in the 1%. Are these all professional athletes, celebrities, CEOs of huge companies and royalty? Should there be a cap on their earnings? Should they be required to give 50% to charity? How can we have a better distribution of wealth?

 

What change do we want to see?

[MSNative]

The top 1% already do give a lot to charity.

"High-income households provide an outsized share of all philanthropic giving. Those in the top 1 percent of the income distribution (any family making $380,000 or more in 2012) provide about a third of all charitable dollars given in the U.S. When it comes to bequests, the rich are even more important: the wealthiest 1.4 percent of Americans are responsible for 86 percent of the charitable donations made at death, according to one study." http://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/topic/donor_intent/donation

[Murphy101]

The top 1% already do give a lot to charity.

"High-income households provide an outsized share of all philanthropic giving. Those in the top 1 percent of the income distribution (any family making $380,000 or more in 2012) provide about a third of all charitable dollars given in the U.S. When it comes to bequests, the rich are even more important: the wealthiest 1.4 percent of Americans are responsible for 86 percent of the charitable donations made at death, according to one study." http://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/topic/donor_intent/donation

That makes sense as they have something left to give and most of those below don't.

 

I don't think anyone is saying all rich people are miserly ogres. (Or any even.)

 

It is ridiculous that 80-90% of the working population has to depend on charity at all to just get by. I don't think there is much charitable about a system that keeps them in that predicament for its own gain.

[Tanaqui]

The top 1% already do give a lot to charity.

"High-income households provide an outsized share of all philanthropic giving. Those in the top 1 percent of the income distribution (any family making $380,000 or more in 2012) provide about a third of all charitable dollars given in the U.S. When it comes to bequests, the rich are even more important: the wealthiest 1.4 percent of Americans are responsible for 86 percent of the charitable donations made at death, according to one study." http://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/topic/donor_intent/donation

 

Yes, but as a percentage of income or of wealth, do they give that much? (That's not rhetorical.) And do these numbers take into account informal charity (like what you do when the woman in front of you at the grocery line starts crying because she can't afford to buy both diapers AND baby formula and the WIC or food stamps have run out, so you hand her $20 and tell her to keep the change)?

 

[idnib]

. 

 

[MSNative]

That makes sense as they have something left to give and most of those below don't.

 

I don't think anyone is saying all rich people are miserly ogres. (Or any even.)

 

It is ridiculous that 80-90% of the working population has to depend on charity at all to just get by. I don't think there is much charitable about a system that keeps them in that predicament for its own gain.

80-90% of the working population depend on charity? I've never seen that stat. Would you mind sharing where you got it?

I was simply responding to the idea that we should force the 1% to give to charity. They already do.

 

In answer to how much they give, this site gives good info. Based on their numbers, Americans gave $335 billion. Given the earlier stat that the top 1% give a third of all charitable dollars, then the top 1% is giving a little over $1 billion.

http://www.nptrust.org/philanthropic-resources/charitable-giving-statistics/