Was this going too far?

[mom31257]

My sister teaches a bible study for senior ladies, and most are in their late 80s and early 90s. These are ladies that get around very well and are mentally fine. This happened to one of her participants last week.

 

Woman (93, very small woman (4'11') looks maybe 80, but mentally fine) goes to the store with her daughter. It's hot outside, but the woman doesn't want to go in with the daughter. The daughter asks her again to be sure she doesn't want to come because it's so hot. The woman says no, and the daughter says come inside if you get too hot. The woman agrees.  

 

Many people start coming to the car to ask if she is okay. She says she is fine. Someone calls the police. The police come, and she tells them she's fine and doesn't want to go in the store. They tell her she cannot stay in the car and proceed to take her by the arm and walk her inside. They find her daughter, and tell the daughter she CANNOT leave her mother in the car ever again. 

 

This was so humiliating to this woman, and now she is questioning her own mental capabilities. She got tears in her eyes telling this to my sister. She asked her, "Am I okay? Does this mean I'm not as good mentally as I thought?" My sister felt so bad for her but told her no, and she promised that if she ever saw signs of her slipping, she would be honest and tell her. 

 

I understand people's concern because it was hot; however, I don't think the police should have treated her like a child and told her daughter she can never leave her again. 

 

What do you all think? 

 

 

[AmyontheFarm]

I wish busybodies would go do something useful.  Like pick up garbage out of ditches, or come clean my house.  Something useful!

[bettyandbob]

Really, that is insane. What is wrong with people.

[umsami]

Absolutely too far.

 

I wonder what the police's reasoning was….or even if it was backed up by law.  I would actually think about getting the AARP or some other elder rights type group involved.   An elderly person with normal mental capacity is not the same as an infant or toddler.

[jenn-]

Well, I hate to say it, but there are probably some people out there that leave someone elderly in the car because they are in a hurry and the older person will slow them down.  Granted, when the police showed up and asked the lady if she wanted to go in and she clearly told them no, they should have left it at that.  This is where the difference between a grown woman and a child comes into play.

[marbel]

Yes, I think that is going too far.   I guess I can understand being concerned but it seems that if the woman is coherent and able to articulate that yes, she wants to be in the car, they should leave her alone.    My 92-year-old neighbor is still driving, for crying out loud.  No one questions her sitting in the car.   

 

What reason did the police give her for not allowing her to stay in the car?   If she had resisted, would she have been arrested?  Would the daughter? 

 

I might be inclined to call the police department and ask what the laws/policies are.  Or, I  might not if I didn't want to raise a fuss and become too visible. 

[Greta]

I can understand the police coming to check on her since they were called. But once they had done so, and she said she was fine and preferred to stay in the car, they should have respected her right to do so. Forcing her into the store was ridiculous, IMO. And so was shaming the daughter.

[SKL]

Police should be trained in how to speak to an elderly person (or any other person) to gauge whether they have the capacity to make decisions.

 

I assume nobody would dare to try to wrestle me out of my car if I decided to stay in there for a little while.  Presumably the windows were down and that is enough to prevent death.  Plus the lady was able to talk etc.

 

This is probably related to the recent/current campaigns that tell you a child will die if allowed to wait in a car for a few minutes.  Obviously if it will kill a healthy child it will kill an elderly person.  But the fact is that it would not kill a child either in a few minutes.  Well meaning people are getting this one all wrong.

[Desert Strawberry]

So far over the line. How humiliating for that poor lady. I guess elderly people don't get to have dignity or autonomy anymore.

[hornblower]

Waay to far.
Lots of elderly people like being taken for drives but don't necessarily want to get out of the car for errands.

If she can talk to people & say she's fine - & esp if she can actually get out on her own & isn't severely mobility impaired (&/or perhaps has a phone to call someone if she needs to) - this is ridiculous.

I'd file a complaint with the police dept &/or go to local media.

[ocelotmom]

No, I don't think it was handled well, and I think that a mentally competent elder person should be able to make their own decisions. Being outside in a car on a hot day could potentially be considered self-neglect, though.

 

On the other hand, without going into detail - I've seen the other side of it. Many elderly are more susceptible to heat, and serious problems can develop very quickly, even in people who are totally there mentally - they can get to the point where they can't physically respond to the situation even if they know they need to.

 

If she didn't have one, a life alert button, cell phone, or something might help show that there was a plan in place.

[catz]

Oh my gosh - my brain is going to explode just reading that!  No way!  Someone needs to tell that sweet grandma someone WAY crossed a line. 

[Kathryn]

Far over the line and I'd make a stink about it.

[Murphy101]

Absolutely ridiculously infuriatingly nearly legal action worthy too far.

[Jean in Newcastle]

No, I don't think it was handled well, and I think that a mentally competent elder person should be able to make their own decisions. Being outside in a car on a hot day could potentially be considered self-neglect, though.

 

On the other hand, without going into detail - I've seen the other side of it. Many elderly are more susceptible to heat, and serious problems can develop very quickly, even in people who are totally there mentally - they can get to the point where they can't physically respond to the situation even if they know they need to.

 

If she didn't have one, a life alert button, cell phone, or something might help show that there was a plan in place.

This.  

[Jennifer3141]

That is absolutely too far!! We are not going to infantilize adults. Infants, yes. Infantilize infants all the way. But adults? No.

 

My fun car/summer story... I have a new black Ford Focus and a black 120 pound mutt dog. This summer, I went to pick my kids up from a scout hike and left my dog in the car. The car was running and locked and I had my key fob in my pocket (my car is a push button ignition - it doesn't have a key per se). And my dog wears a seat belt-thingie in the car because he jumps all over the place if he doesn't so it's not like he could turn the engine off, even if he tried.

 

Because my car is new, it runs very quietly. Some nutjob was waiting for us at the car ready to break my window. I asked her what she was doing. She screamed that I'm lucky my dog didn't die. I opened the car and 60 degree air poured out. My dog was so happy in that dang car, it was ridiculous.

 

It's really hard to get an almost  solid back dog to go on a 2 mile hike in 100 degree weather. Driving around in the 60 degree car for an hour is so is the only way he can recover well. :lol:

 

My dog has lab in him. If he doesn't run, he goes batpoop crazy. So yep, I drive my dog around in the summer since we don't have central air right now.

[J-rap]

It seems over the top, and I'm sorry for her and that she was treated like a child!  But, I can also understand the concern of the bystander and police, and actually think it's sweet that people were caring about her and wanted to make sure she was okay.  How hot is hot?  Did she have the AC on, or was she in the car with the windows shut, engine not running, and 100 degrees outside?  I guess it all depends on the circumstances.  Maybe the police have had some bad experiences with elderly who are not as with-it being left in hot cars.  I'm sorry the police spoke to her in a way that felt humiliating, even though they had her best interests in mind.

[Tess in the Burbs]

The problem is, no one knows when they need to intervene.  Some people have had experiences when they should have and now get involved every time they see something that might be an issue.  Ignoring the woman could have been an issue if a problem arose...they might forever feel horrible about ignoring the situation.  So I think who is around makes a difference.  If a community has had previous issues of elderly women dying in cars perhaps they all felt the need to get involved and care for this woman.  

 

What bothers me is that when the police got involved they ignored her and her requests.  If she can't firmly say I am fine and I am choosing to sit out here then she shouldn't stay outside alone.  But if the police ignored her?  A whole other story.  

 

The daughter should have spoke up to the police and said her mother is mentally capable and wants to sit outside.  Her feeling doubt about it all didn't help the elderly lady.  

I hope they can both learn to be firm in their choices and not let nosy passerby's who call the cops dictate their lives!

[myfunnybunch]

YES. Too far.

 

The police should have backed off the moment she said she was fine. Of course, people had good intentions and wanted to protect her, but forcing an adult to go into a store and chastising the other adult she's with is over the line.

 

Cat

[LucyStoner]

That's crazy. The woman should file a complaint against the officer.

[ocelotmom]

Also, keep in mind that "Yes, I'm fine" isn't enough to tell that someone is mentally and physically capable of caring for themselves. For all the police officer knows, she has moderate Alzheimer's and a broken hip.

 

Of course, a police officer should also be trained to do a basic mental status assessment.

[Flowing Brook]

I am not saying it is right. However I wonder if the police were worried about getting in trouble if they left the women in the car and something happened to her.

[Desert Strawberry]

I'm all for asking if someone is ok or needs help. I get offers of assistance all the time in public. I'm short, obviously pregnant, with multiple children. Sometimes I say yes, sometimes I say no, thank you. But no one should forcibly take my groceries from me if I refuse, or remove me from my vehicle if I just want to sit for a while. Heck, I offer help to others. But no means no.

[Farrar]

One of the dangers, as I understand it, is that many elderly people can't feel heat very well. It's part of why many elderly people die in heat waves in the summer. They feel okay in their apartments or wherever and don't seek out somewhere cooler. So I think it was fair to check on her.

 

Not okay to force her to go inside when she was clearly okay and chastise her daughter.

[Farrar]

I am not saying it is right. However I wonder if the police were worried about getting in trouble if they left the women in the car and something happened to her.

 

So true. Sometimes I feel like everything is just everyone trying to cover their rear ends.

[Murphy101]

Yes. I don't think anyone is bothered by asking her if she's okay or needs anything. That's not the issue here at all IMO.

[LucyStoner]

In truth though if I was leaving any age person in the car on a hot day, I'd leave it running for the AC. Here it is illegal to leave kids in *running* car until they are 14 or 15 so on hot days, my 11 year old bookworm and 12 year old niece who'd rather wait in the car have to come in with us.

 

Elderly people shouldn't be treated like kids though. My dad is growing more and more frail as a man with a chronic health condition in his 70s. I'd be livid if an officer tried to force him into a store.

[SKL]

Yeah, my mom has really bad back problems and it hurts her a lot to get in and out of the car.  She hardly goes anywhere as it is.  If she wants to sit there for a while, so be it.  I would like to know how cops think we adult "children" are supposed to tell our mentally competent parents that they *will* come with us.  That sounds like elder abuse actually.

 

And I remember when my granny was so miserable she wanted to die.  (She did die later that year, of cancer, in the hospital.)  Who am I to say she is required to do all that can be done to keep her health optimal?  Sheesh.  I buy milkshakes and I probably shouldn't be allowed to do that.  It might make me die sooner.

 

We're not talking about a granny walking through a fire here.

[Cera]

Absolutely going too far.  The woman and her daughter should speak with someone at the police department that was behind this behavior so the officers can be retrained.  Unless there was a clear indication that she is very mentally incapacitated they have no legal authority to tell an adult what to do.

[Harriet Vane]

Absolutely too far.

 

Granny wasn't breaking any laws. The police do NOT have the right to compel her to move.

 

They should file a complaint.

[Mrs Mungo]

I can understand the police coming to check on her since they were called. But once they had done so, and she said she was fine and preferred to stay in the car, they should have respected her right to do so. Forcing her into the store was ridiculous, IMO. And so was shaming the daughter.

I agree. This is ridiculous. I would pursue it with the local police so that they can put better procedures in place. Totally unacceptable.

[Greta]

Yeah, my mom has really bad back problems and it hurts her a lot to get in and out of the car. She hardly goes anywhere as it is. If she wants to sit there for a while, so be it. I would like to know how cops think we adult "children" are supposed to tell our mentally competent parents that they *will* come with us. That sounds like elder abuse actually.

This is exactly the kind of scenario that came to my mind. My 98 year old grandmother has arthritis in her hip. If she wants to stay in the car on one of the days when it is really hurting her, that's her choice!

[Word Nerd]

Absolutely it was going too far, and I would make a formal complaint to the police department involved. It would have been better to leave the A/C on for her (though if she's like me, the A/C often feels too cold), but it's not a crime for a mentally and physically able adult to sit in a parked car. 

[Grover]

I'd encourage granny to make a written complaint about the incident at the local police department - with her daughter's full backing.  It is cray that a fully competent adult would be forced to get out of a car where they were perfectly happy hanging out.  I understand people being concerned, and I applaud them for checking on her, but once they had done that, it was clear she was 1) competent, 2) hapy and 3) in no danger, it's time to move on!

[Murphy101]

So true. Sometimes I feel like everything is just everyone trying to cover their rear ends.

Indeed.

 

Their desire to cover their arse does not give them the right to throw someone under the bus (or in this case, make them get out of it) to do it.

[idnib]

Unbelievable. And the cherry on top was telling the daughter what she could and couldn't do in the future.

 

I'd be in there tonight filing a complaint.

[MrsDarcy]

After a few words to make sure the elderly lady wasn't being abandoned for the day, and was comfortable, this is really going too far.  I wonder if it had been an elderly MAN, like my dad, if this would've gone this far.  My dad would've been giving that officer a piece of his mind!   

[Heatherwith4]

The lady and her daughter really should file a complaint.

[dirty ethel rackham]

One of the dangers, as I understand it, is that many elderly people can't feel heat very well. It's part of why many elderly people die in heat waves in the summer. They feel okay in their apartments or wherever and don't seek out somewhere cooler. So I think it was fair to check on her.

 

Not okay to force her to go inside when she was clearly okay and chastise her daughter.

Many elderly cannot tolerate cold either.  Many stores have the AC up so high that their older employees are wearing winter clothes.  I know my mom needed her place much warmer than I could tolerate (and I like things warm.)  She had less body mass and less muscle to keep her warm. 

 

I think the police could have politely questioned the elderly woman to ascertain her mental status.  They could also have simply questioned the daughter as well.  No need to treat either of them with such disrespect. 

[MiMi 4under3]

Idk, an elderly person can overheat much more quickly than say, a 40-year old. If it was 80 degrees out and the car was not on with the A/C running, it could be a problem.

 

Were the windows open? How was the police supposed to know that the woman was in the car by choice? I mean, the police can't know her mental status just because she told them she was fine. How can they know if she's capable of accurately judging her own well-being?

 

Sounds like the police were genuinely concerned and tried to do the right thing. I know if this happened to my mom, we'd have a good laugh about it later in the day.

[SKL]

Idk, an elderly person can overheat much more quickly than say, a 40-year old. If it was 80 degrees out and the car was not on with the A/C running, it could be a problem.

 

Were the windows open? How was the police supposed to know that the woman was in the car by choice? I mean, the police can't know her mental status just because she told them she was fine. How can they know if she's capable of accurately judging her own well-being?

 

Sounds like the police were genuinely concerned and tried to do the right thing. I know if this happened to my mom, we'd have a good laugh about it later in the day.

 

How do we know the cop's mental status for that matter?  How does anyone know anyone's mental status?  There are people of all ages who can't accurately judge their own well-being.  Does one need to carry official proof of sanity after a certain age?  The vast majority of people never go senile, and those who do are rarely alone in a car.  People can't just assume that because she's old she must be senile AND in danger.

 

My mom would definitely not have thought this was funny.  Most likely she would have never gone out again except for necessary doctor appointments.  It would have destroyed her already challenged quality of life.

 

I am not bit on filing complaints, but I'm leaning toward at least some informal "constructive criticism" in this case.  The cops should have a discussion among themselves as to how they would like to be treated in their elderly years.

[MiMi 4under3]

How do we know the cop's mental status for that matter?  

 

:lol: 

 

 

I'm thinking "better safe than sorry."

 

No, I wouldn't want the police assuming I'm senile just because I'm old, but it's the intention that matters. They were trying to be nice and trying to keep an old lady safe. I don't see anything wrong with it.

[idnib]

Idk, an elderly person can overheat much more quickly than say, a 40-year old. If it was 80 degrees out and the car was not on with the A/C running, it could be a problem.

 

Were the windows open? How was the police supposed to know that the woman was in the car by choice? I mean, the police can't know her mental status just because she told them she was fine. How can they know if she's capable of accurately judging her own well-being?

 

Sounds like the police were genuinely concerned and tried to do the right thing. I know if this happened to my mom, we'd have a good laugh about it later in the day.

 

I don't agree with you, but accepting what you said for argument's sake, once they had determined she was there by choice, of sound mind, and had taken her into the store and everything was fine, what gave them the right to tell the woman she couldn't leave the mother alone in the car again?

[SKL]

:lol:

 

 

I'm thinking "better safe than sorry."

 

No, I wouldn't want the police assuming I'm senile just because I'm old, but it's the intention that matters. They were trying to be nice and trying to keep an old lady safe. I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

By that standard the cops would be empowered to do a lot of things Americans would find unacceptable.

 

I don't agree that they were "trying to be nice."  In what world does being "nice" include physically forcing a person to go somewhere against her will?  That reminds me of the cartoons where a boy scout is nearly kills an old lady by "helping" her across the street.  I expect a lot better from the police.

 

"Trying to be nice" would be going into the store and paging the owner of the car and asking her to go check on the old lady because she doesn't seem to be really OK.

[bolt.]

I would have needed to ask the helpful police officer to tell me at exactly what age a person looses the right to choose to sit in a parked car if she wants to. Because if that's a law, I need the details, and if it isn't, they need to be clear that they are giving personal advice, not police instructions.

[VaKim]

This is just crazy! My mom works for a couple who are 92 and 96, and they still drive. And I am so sick of busybodies thinking they are being helpful. Sure, some people really are doing it for good reasons. But most that I have talked to just enjoy tattling and feeling important. Like children. This is something that just burns me up!

[MiMi 4under3]

I don't agree with you, but accepting what you said for argument's sake, once they had determined she was there by choice, of sound mind, and had taken her into the store and everything was fine, what gave them the right to tell the woman she couldn't leave the mother alone in the car again?

 

I suppose the were offering advice. I don't know how anybody can sit in a car on an 80 degree day. I'd have given the same "friendly advice" if I were the police.  :D

[MiMi 4under3]

"Trying to be nice" would be going into the store and paging the owner of the car and asking her to go check on the old lady because she doesn't seem to be really OK.

 

Agreed, that would have been less traumatic for the elderly woman.

[Hikin' Mama]

Absolutely too far! It would be okay to ask the lady if she was okay. When she said yes, they should have left her alone. Nobody better do this to me when I'm an old lady. I'll do my best to make them wish they hadn't!

[MiMi 4under3]

Because she is a sentient creature and she told them so.

 

If you were chilling in your car listening to the deep cuts off your favorite nineties reggae album and the police forced you to get out of he car after you TOLD THEM you were fine, marched you into the store, and informed your husband that he really shouldn't leave you alone in the car, don't you think you might feel a titch violated?

 

Again, it's the intent here. They are trying to be helpful.