Feeling lost (as a parent) without Christianity

[klinkermom]

For the past year, I've been thinking a lot about God and digging deeper to figure out just why I believe the Bible is true (instead of just accepting it because it's all I've known). At this point, I don't really believe it anymore. Never thought I'd say that, but I read 50 Questions for Every Christian and Jesus Interrupted, and I can't deny that Christianity just doesn't make a lot of sense.

So, after using the Bible as the main source of wisdom on why we should and shouldn't do things, I'm lost as a Mom in trying to teach these things to my children.

 

My husband just recently "converted" to atheism from Christianity, and he is a lot more accepting of things that he never was before (swearing with "g#d d###it in front of our children, not caring too much about the shows they watch, laughing at crude jokes, making fun of Christians, etc.).

Since I'm not totally convinced that there isn't a God, there is a wall between us now, and we don't parent as a team like we used to.

 

My biggest concern at this point is my daughter. She idolizes her dad and is no longer a Christian either. She is condescending to me bc I'm not an atheist like they are. Last night, we were watching Once Upon a Time, and she was admiring the wicked witch ("She's so manipulative and evil! I love it!" etc.). I didn't know how to respond to her. She is seeing atheism as an excuse to rebel against everything I've taught her. Honestly, I don't know what to say to her anymore without the Bible to back me up. I know morality exists outside of Christianity- I just don't know how to teach it.

Edited April 14, 2014 by klinkermom

[Aelwydd]

I hear you. Been walking a similar path of questioning for several years now.  I wouldn't be in any position to give advice.  I would only say that don't seem to be 100% seamless arguments, only stronger and weaker ones.  Same for evidence.  Some data is very strong, some is very weak. 

 

 

I listen to these discussions with interest.  I'm not interested in dogmatism, though.  That, I have definitely rejected, in all its forms, religious and otherwise.

 

 

[klinkermom]

I accidentally pushed submit when I wasn't finished, so I edited my original post.

[Chris in VA]

Pm'd you.

[kroe1]

The fact that your children and marriage are changing in your non-Christian state maybe all you need to know.

 

What I mean by that is from my own life experience. I was raised by logical atheists. Right and wrong was based on immediate feedback, not Biblical principle, it made sense until My life fell apart and I was introduced to Christianity. The more I accepted the "illogical faith". the more my life improved. I cannot explain it. I cannot reason through it. It just is.

 

As I have studied the Bible and become much older and a wee wiser, I realize there is more logic to its teachings than I ever gave credit. But that is a whole different thread.

 

Perhaps your DH can ascertain if he sees a difference in your marriage and children, too. Sometimes stepping out of the light makes one appreciate it more.

[Heather in Neverland]

People often go through stages as they make a big life change. Sometimes the first phase is outright, and sometimes hostile, rejection of their former way of life. As your dh becomes more confident in his decision and as more time passes, hopefully the scorn and mocking will subside and he won't feel it necessary to do that any more.

 

For instance, many homeschoolers, after pulling their child from public school, will go through a "public school sucks and everyone should homeschool" phase. I know I did. Subconsciously I just needed to reassure myself that I made the right decision by completely rejecting the former way. However after a few years of homeschooling I was comfortable enough to say "homeschooling is great for my family but public school is a valid choice as well."

 

This is something you can teach to your dd... that you don't have to be a Christian to realize that scorning and mocking people for their beliefs is hurtful.

 

As far as swearing and inappropriate TV shows, etc., again, many atheists agree that some television shows should not be viewed by younger people and many atheists don't swear...it's not something only christians believe. I hope your dh doesn't equate being an atheist with being a hedonist?

 

Examining one's faith is a difficult thing. I am praying for wisdom and peace for you.

[klinkermom]

The fact that your children and marriage are changing in your non-Christian state maybe all you need to know.

 

What I mean by that is from my own life experience. I was raised by logical atheists. Right and wrong was based on immediate feedback, not Biblical principle, it made sense until My life fell apart and I was introduced to Christianity. The more I accepted the "illogical faith". the more my life improved. I cannot explain it. I cannot reason through it. It just is.

 

As I have studied the Bible and become much older and a wee wiser, I realize there is more logic to its teachings than I ever gave credit. But that is a whole different thread.

 

Perhaps your DH can ascertain if he sees a difference in your marriage and children, too. Sometimes stepping out of the light makes one appreciate it more.

My marriage started falling apart a year ago when my husband told me he no longer believed in God. I was completely devastated, and my world turned upside down. My dh grew up going to Christian schools, memorized books of the Bible, witnessed on the streets to homeless people, etc. When we married 20 years ago, he was the last person I thought would stop believing.

 

After my initial shock (and anger and pain), I tried to understand why he was so sure it wasn't true. He wanted me to read the books that I mentioned in my first post. After reading them, I started on my own journey to find out what I thought was truth. My dh, apparently, has been on this journey for years, and though I suspected his beliefs were changing, I never dreamed he would stop believing in God altogether. He is convinced, and I can't imagine him considering the changes in our marriage/children as a reason to turn back to a god he thinks is made up.

[Aelwydd]

I think your DH and your daughter are using their different worldview as an excuse to behave poorly. I know of many atheists and agnostics that would not be ok with that.

 

I would have a serious talk with DH about this alone.  Be honest and tell him you are in a questioning state, but that it does not give him the right to check out of parenting.  My dh is basically agnostic, and I'm pretty much there myself, but there are still words we don't want ds to use, and shows that are not age appropriate for him. I would point out to him that a lack of theological belief does not equate, nor should it equate, a lack of values as a family.  Kindness, respect, and affection are all still highly relevant to your family relations whether or not your family goes to church.

 

I would also ask him to stand with you in correcting your daughter's disrespectful attitude towards you.  It doesn't even have anything to do with "honor your parents," but the basic respect each person should be accorded.  You ask her, would she speak so rudely and condescendingly towards her friends that may believe in God? Does she want them to speak to her in the same manner?  No?  That's good, it's called mutual respect.  As a human being, and as her mother, you are owed that. She may have her beliefs, but she should not openly disparage yours just to hurt your feelings or show contempt.

 

That's my $0.02.

 

 

 

 

[marbel]

Maybe it would help if you talked to your husband about his attitude and how it's affecting you as you sort out your feelings and beliefs.   If he suddenly thinks it's fine to make fun of Christians, start using vulgar language, etc., he is disrespecting you and undermining you with your children.   And, just in general being a jerk.  Atheists don't care what kind of tv shows their kids watch, and resort to crude language because, well, there's no reason not to?  Mocking other people for their beliefs?   We are a Christian family but we don't make fun of atheists; no one I know does.

 

So maybe some of what you're feeling is a disconnect between your former Christian beliefs and the way you see atheism being practiced in your home.  I don't think it has to be that way.  There are plenty of atheists who teach their children how to live good lives without the Bible.  Atheists and believers can live with mutual respect. 

 

:grouphug:

 

 

[73349]

 I know morality exists outside of Christianity- I just don't know how to teach it.

 

You could start with the things you believe deeply about right and wrong, regardless of the source. The Golden Rule is one way to encourage your daughter.

 

My church invites people of a spectrum of theologies, including Christianity and atheism, to live in justice, kindness, and an honest search for truth. I wonder if some of our principles would work in your family as you're sorting things out?

 

Unitarian Universalists hold the Principles as strong values and moral teachings. As Rev. Barbara Wells ten Hove explains, “The Principles are not dogma or doctrine, but rather a guide for those of us who choose to join and participate in Unitarian Universalist religious communities.â€

1. 1st Principle: The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
2. 2nd Principle: Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
3. 3rd Principle: Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
4. 4th Principle: A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
5. 5th Principle: The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
6. 6th Principle: The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
7. 7th Principle: Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

The first four, especially, might be helpful. Best wishes to your family.

[Ipsey]

I don't have a ton of time to respond right now, but I wanted to send hugs and encouragement.

My husband and I both left the faith together and have always been supportive of one another and that has always helped the parenting. This sound like a marriage issue as much as anything, and I can only imagine how painful that is.

Atheism doesn't make cruel people any more than Christianity does. People do that all on their own. I hope you can find strengthening, comfort, and mutual respect in one another. 

 

I'll try to PM later.

 

[PrincessMommy]

Your husband sounds a bit like a rebellious teen who is flipping the bird at his parents.  The problem is, he's not 15.  He's an adult and a parent.  I have a good friend who is a Christian and married to an atheist.  He would not think this kind of behavior is cool.  Being an atheist should not mean morally bankrupt (thinking evil is cool, exposing kids to anything, etc).

 

As a Christian myself, I'm sorry that you have rejected Christianity.  But, as an Orthodox Christian (formerly a Prot) I no longer believe the Bible is the only source of wisdom for Christian living (Sola Scriptura).  I don't believe there has to be an either/or....  but, that's a different thread.

[Kathryn]

This isn't an atheism problem, it's a respect problem. Your family is being rude and disrespectful and hiding behind atheism to do so. I was an atheist for almost three decades. Lack of belief in God is not an excuse to be unkind to fellow humans.

[DawnM]

Would your husband be open to counseling?  I would even offer to go to a non-Christian counselor as I am positive they will tell him this is not ok.

 

I agree with the others in that this seems to be some mid-life crisis and maturity regression of some sort.  

 

I don't know of any atheists, agnostics, or general non-Christians who think your Dh's and Dd's behavior should be ok.

 

Dawn

[Mom-ninja.]

Agreeing with others that their behavior is not due to rejecting Christianity. If they think that's how atheists behave then they have some serious searching and researching to do. I actually find that I'm a much stricter parent than many Christians I know. Disrespect is not tolerated. At all. Ever.

 

A non-belief in God does not equate to disrespect, immorality, or crude, unacceptable behavior.

[Julie Smith]

My biggest concern at this point is my daughter. She idolizes her dad and is no longer a Christian either. She is condescending to me bc I'm not an atheist like they are. Last night, we were watching Once Upon a Time, and she was admiring the wicked witch ("She's so manipulative and evil! I love it!" etc.). I didn't know how to respond to her. She is seeing atheism as an excuse to rebel against everything I've taught her. Honestly, I don't know what to say to her anymore without the Bible to back me up. I know morality exists outside of Christianity- I just don't know how to teach it.

 

One book I read that had a discussion between a believer and a non-believer answered that question very nicely. It went something like this. 

 

The Non-believer:

We do the right thing. Respect others, the environment... Because this is it. We have only one chance to make an impression on the world and then we are gone. What we do every day, how we act every day is how we are rememebered. They is no heaven or hell. Just here and now. So we do what we can to make this the kind of place we want to live and the kind of place we want our children to live. The only way we live on is in the memory of our children so we do whatever we can to ensure they are the best they can be and remember us always at our best. 

[Guest submarines]

Maybe it would help if you talked to your husband about his attitude and how it's affecting you as you sort out your feelings and beliefs.   If he suddenly thinks it's fine to make fun of Christians, start using vulgar language, etc., he is disrespecting you and undermining you with your children.   And, just in general being a jerk.  Atheists don't care what kind of tv shows their kids watch, and resort to crude language because, well, there's no reason not to?  Mocking other people for their beliefs?   We are a Christian family but we don't make fun of atheists; no one I know does.

 

So maybe some of what you're feeling is a disconnect between your former Christian beliefs and the way you see atheism being practiced in your home.  I don't think it has to be that way.  There are plenty of atheists who teach their children how to live good lives without the Bible.  Atheists and believers can live with mutual respect. 

 

:grouphug:

 

This exactly. Being an atheist doesn't have anything to do with being a jerk!

[ktgrok]

Maybe read C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity with your daughter? It talks a lot about moral rules, and how they are innate in society, etc. REally great book. 

[flyingiguana]

Your family probably isn't making fun of you -- they're making fun of the people they perceive themselves to have once been. They're just using you as a scapegoat.

 

It is rude behavior, though, and shouldn't be happening, no matter who's Christian and who's not.

 

My dad was the most moral person I have ever met -- and was an atheist his entire life. He also managed to raise me as a fairly moral person (I hope), despite the lack of a religion. So it is possible. It's all about modeling behavior and discussing reasons why things would be right and wrong.

 

In your situation, the reasons for expecting better behavior out of your family involve your feelings -- no one needs Jesus to tell them that what they're doing is disrespectful and causing tension within the family. So you don't need religion to guide them here. You can meet on the common ground of whether or not they want you to feel bad.

[linders]

:grouphug: Sounds like you need a serious discussion with DH and DD about morality. Morality - doing the right thing - isn't (at least, doesn't need to be) about God. Here is a quote from a website on atheism:

 

"So what's the point of being moral if God doesn't exist? It's the same "point" that people should acknowledge if God does exist: because the happiness and suffering of other human beings matter to us such that we should seek, whenever possible, to increase their happiness and decrease their suffering. It's also the "point" that morality is required for human social structures and human communities to survive at all. Neither the presence nor the absence of any gods can change this, and while religious theists may find that their beliefs impact their moral decisions, they cannot claim that their beliefs are prerequisites for making any moral decisions at all."

 

It sounds like DH and DD are using their atheism as an excuse for behavior that would be considered poor regardless of religious beliefs. Perhaps if you acknowledge your own uncertainties but discuss morality as a separate issue?

[Χά�ων]

Being an atheist does not mean being a jerk. 

Being an atheist does not mean forgoing parental responsibility.

 

Not allowing my son access to media that is inappropriate for his age has nothing to do with religious beliefs, or lack there of.

Not allowing my son to be disrespectful to others has nothing to do with religious beliefs, or lack there of.

 

 

For reasons why your DD should not behave in such a way towards others? Because other people have feelings and rights. 

 

Being taught empathy, compassion, respect for all people no matter what will go a long way. 

 

[goldberry]

Although I am Christian myself, I have a dear friend who became a practical atheist as an adult.  She has raised three children in a very "strict" environment - no inappropriate tv, conservative moral values, no swearing, and respect among their family is not negotiable.  She has admitted it was harder without the support of a religious system, but she certainly has done it.

 

She raised them with these values not to please God, but because she believes it is what is best for them and how they will lead a happy and productive life.  Instead of having "this is what God wants" as a reasoning, you will just have to find other reasons that make sense to your daughter.  It may be harder but not impossible.  I would think as an athiest you have more personal responsibility to make good choices, not less.

[Amy in NH]

We can still try to be the best humans we can possibly be, keeping in mind that no-one is perfect, even without thinking there is a higher power watching to punish us if we aren't.  It is an intrinsic motivation to create beauty and leave the world a better place, and to inspire others through our own moral behavior.  Vulgar behavior doesn't fit with those goals.  Think about the world you wish to live in, and then live it. 

 

It might help you to take a look at the Seven Principles of Unitarian Universalism. 

[livetoread]

There is nothing quite as self-righteous as a self-righteous teen, lol. Many are already feeling insecure themselves, and when there is an opportunity to feel smug towards someone else, they often jump on it with both feet. If they can bond with someone else over their shared smugness, all the better.

 

It can be hard on a marriage to go through what you guys have. We went through it too, with my husband losing his faith first, and then me. He never seemed to go through a hurt, angry phase though which helped a lot, and he is a very respectful person. I have more of a snarky tendency than he does. I have had to work with my teenaged son a bit who has my snark and a teens' self-righteousness.

 

We work through losing our faith in different ways. Some are easier to be around than others, but there is no excuse for jerkiness.

[Tangerine]

We are an atheist family.  Just yesterday, when my daughter had treated my son harshly, we had a very long conversation.  It went like this:  You treated Finnegan unkindly, and I think he deserves an apology. To which she responded that she would apologize to him when her Daddy apologized to her.  I told her that she apologizes to Finnegan because she loves him and she hurt his feelings.  It isn't a tit for tat.  You do the right thing because it is the right thing to do.  Not because you're going to get something for doing it.  You may.  You may not.  Doing the right thing may even result in more trouble for you.  Perhaps nobody will ever even know that you did the right thing but you. But it is still the right thing to do.  That is pretty much our parenting philosophy in a nutshell.  Now, we could certainly have a discussion about whose moral authority we are using to decide what is right, but we pretty much rely on doing the kind thing, the thing that your conscience demands.  My daughter celebrates villains as well actually.  She adores the macabre.  But she is (at 9) certainly able to separate that from what she herself should do.  Maybe your daughter does too.

[mommymilkies]

I think your DH and your daughter are using their different worldview as an excuse to behave poorly. I know of many atheists and agnostics that would not be ok with that.

 

I would have a serious talk with DH about this alone.  Be honest and tell him you are in a questioning state, but that it does not give him the right to check out of parenting.  My dh is basically agnostic, and I'm pretty much there myself, but there are still words we don't want ds to use, and shows that are not age appropriate for him. I would point out to him that a lack of theological belief does not equate, nor should it equate, a lack of values as a family.  Kindness, respect, and affection are all still highly relevant to your family relations whether or not your family goes to church.

 

I would also ask him to stand with you in correcting your daughter's disrespectful attitude towards you.  It doesn't even have anything to do with "honor your parents," but the basic respect each person should be accorded.  You ask her, would she speak so rudely and condescendingly towards her friends that may believe in God? Does she want them to speak to her in the same manner?  No?  That's good, it's called mutual respect.  As a human being, and as her mother, you are owed that. She may have her beliefs, but she should not openly disparage yours just to hurt your feelings or show contempt.

 

That's my $0.02.

 

 

This isn't an atheism problem, it's a respect problem. Your family is being rude and disrespectful and hiding behind atheism to do so. I was an atheist for almost three decades. Lack of belief in God is not an excuse to be unkind to fellow humans.

:iagree:   Atheists don't hold a monopoly on acting like jerks.  If they are using it as an excuse, it's not ok the same way a newly Born Christian should not use their new faith as an excuse to insult non-believers.  I recommend using some good texts you all might enjoy as a way to explore ethics, mores, etc.  Marcus Aurelius is one good source.  There's TONS out there and none say being a jerk is ok.  You can even use a compromise.  Lord of the Rings is written by an undoubtedly Christian Tolkein, yet there's SO much an atheist can pull out of there as guidelines for good living.  Does that make sense? 

 

I would also examine WHY they chose atheism.  Was it something traumatic?  Was there lifelong abuse or oppression?  Was it just discovering things they had been taught were not true? Etc.  There's not always a reason like that, but if there is, it can help you understand why they're feeling hurt and hurting in return.  That does not excuse it, but I would work from there and let it be known that disrespect is not tolerable. 

[Trish]

Do what thou wilt, and all, that, without being rude or evil?

 

I would feel lost as a person without Christianity.

[NorthwestMom]

Agreeing with others that their behavior is not due to rejecting Christianity. If they think that's how atheists behave then they have some serious searching and researching to do. I actually find that I'm a much stricter parent than many Christians I know. Disrespect is not tolerated. At all. Ever.

 

A non-belief in God does not equate to disrespect, immorality, or crude, unacceptable behavior.

 

I would consider myself atheist, and I have a very strong moral code. I just don't require a belief in a higher power in order to desire to do the right thing.

[Tangerine]

Do what thou wilt, and all, that, without being rude or evil?

 

I would feel lost as a person without Christianity.

If you're referring to Alestair Crowley, he was an occultist and magic practitioner.  That is not atheism.

 

Otherwise, the source is St. Augustine:

 

"Once for all, then, a short precept is given thee: Love, and do what thou wilt: whether thou hold thy peace, through love hold thy peace; whether thou cry out, through love cry out; whether thou correct, through love correct; whether thou spare, through love do thou spare: let the root of love be within, of this root can nothing spring but what is good." 

 

I can get on board with that version.

[Lucy]

So, I know Christians get their moral code from the Bible.  But where do athiests get theirs?  If there is no overriding "right and wrong" or moral code that is outside of ourselves (God) and all we have is the here and now, why wouldn't we just live for our own happiness?  It seems that the OP is in need of something to hold before her family as an absolute to live up to like she used to have... but what is that absolute for the atheist?  (I'm sincerely asking... just in case someone thinks I'm trying to stir the water!)

[mommymilkies]

So, I know Christians get their moral code from the Bible.  But where do athiests get theirs?  If there is no overriding "right and wrong" or moral code that is outside of ourselves (God) and all we have is the here and now, why wouldn't we just live for our own happiness?  It seems that the OP is in need of something to hold before her family as an absolute to live up to like she used to have... but what is that absolute for the atheist?  (I'm sincerely asking... just in case someone thinks I'm trying to stir the water!)

There are no absolutes even in religion.  Do you ONLY be "good" because God says so?  You don't murder or anything because God says so but you would totally do it without the Bible telling you not to?  That's a seriously depressing view of humanity.  

[Laura Corin]

So, I know Christians get their moral code from the Bible.  But where do athiests get theirs?  If there is no overriding "right and wrong" or moral code that is outside of ourselves (God) and all we have is the here and now, why wouldn't we just live for our own happiness?  It seems that the OP is in need of something to hold before her family as an absolute to live up to like she used to have... but what is that absolute for the atheist?  (I'm sincerely asking... just in case someone thinks I'm trying to stir the water!)

 

The Golden Rule exists in many countries and cultures, inside and outside of faiths.  Do unto others...  It's a recognition that we are all in this together.  We rely on each other and on each other's good behaviour to make better lives for everyone.  Yes, I could behave completely selfishly.  And I might 'get away' with it.  But I want to be a good person, to respect myself and gain the respect of others, to live in a society where people are good to each other.

 

Every morning, my commute is made sweet by little acts of driving courtesy that I and others commit.  Every time I let someone in front of me in a queue, it makes both me and the other person happy.

 

L

[klinkermom]

So, I know Christians get their moral code from the Bible. But where do athiests get theirs? If there is no overriding "right and wrong" or moral code that is outside of ourselves (God) and all we have is the here and now, why wouldn't we just live for our own happiness? It seems that the OP is in need of something to hold before her family as an absolute to live up to like she used to have... but what is that absolute for the atheist? (I'm sincerely asking... just in case someone thinks I'm trying to stir the water!)

When my husband and I have talked about this, he always asks me, "Is it right because God says it's right, or does God say it's right because it is right?"

[Pawz4me]

I've never understood why people believe there can be no morals or knowledge of right/wrong outside of Christianity.

 

In the OP's shoes I might have DD (and DH, if possible) spend some time researching what Christians refer to as the Golden Rule.  Note that the concept existed a very long time before Christianity.

[umsami]

Is there a Unitarian-Universalist church near you? That might offer some solutions.  I seem to remember one thing they do in Religious Education is have the kids create their own moral code, for lack of a better word.    OK, tried Shaykh Google as us Muslims call it, and this came up.  Not what I was searching for, but interesting nonetheless :)  http://www.meadville.edu/uploads/files/150.pdf

 

Also, there are various serious of Family Values books…that were put out by the Bahai faith, I think.  http://www.amazon.com/The-Family-Virtues-Guide-Ourselves/dp/0452278104/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1397492032&sr=8-2&keywords=family+values

 

And yes, the Golden Rule transcends religion.  There was actually a good book about it that we read a few years ago.  I'll see if I can find it.  http://www.amazon.com/The-Golden-Rule-Ilene-Cooper/dp/081090960X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397492054&sr=8-1&keywords=golden+rule

 

Being an atheist or agnostic does not mean that one does not care about others, morality, or what not. 

[Χά�ων]

So, I know Christians get their moral code from the Bible.  But where do athiests get theirs?  If there is no overriding "right and wrong" or moral code that is outside of ourselves (God) and all we have is the here and now, why wouldn't we just live for our own happiness?  It seems that the OP is in need of something to hold before her family as an absolute to live up to like she used to have... but what is that absolute for the atheist?  (I'm sincerely asking... just in case someone thinks I'm trying to stir the water!)

 

Since you asked. Here is my view on the topic. This is *my* approach to parenting and life in general. I have been this way since I was 12.

 

I cannot imagine being a person who is unable to know the difference between what is right and what is wrong without having the threat of eternal torture to keep me toeing a line of preset behavioral expectations.  *I* am kind because *I* have decided that is how *I* want to behave towards others. I am incredibly saddened that others feel they must be coerced or have to follow a moral code set by an external force. 

 

As a parent it is my job to guide my child to build empathy for others and to help him build his internal moral compass. If I have to tell my child if they do not behave in a certain way that will make God sad to get them to comply than I have failed as a parent. It is my job to build up my child to know empathy, compassion and kindness and be able to show empathy, compassion and kindness to others. I talk to my son as situations comes up. If I see him actively excluding another child I pull him aside and talk to him. I ask him how he would feel if someone said or did that to him. Then I ask him how the other child feels. I never have to go beyond this, even when he was little. Now that he is older and I m not always with him people come up to me all the time to tell me how my son went out of his way to include their child. More than once a parent has chased me down at the park to tell me how kind my son is and that their child rarely finds another child who is kind to them. The children are usually on the autism spectrum or have a mental illness that makes social interaction difficult. I am always happy to hear that my son has helped brighten the day of another child (and parent). 

 

I also think being exposed to a wide range of ages helps. My son can go from playing with preschool kids, to interacting with kids his own age to hanging out with his 15-17 year old without missing a beat. The downside? I have to explain that while I trust his older teen age friends, I am not yet willing to allow him to ride in a car driven by teenagers. 

 

My son is waaaaaay nicer than I am so I have to say that it is not from watching his mother who tends to be a bit more on the snarky and sarcastic side.

[poppy]

If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today.

[momma2three]

So, I know Christians get their moral code from the Bible.  But where do athiests get theirs?  If there is no overriding "right and wrong" or moral code that is outside of ourselves (God) and all we have is the here and now, why wouldn't we just live for our own happiness?  It seems that the OP is in need of something to hold before her family as an absolute to live up to like she used to have... but what is that absolute for the atheist?  (I'm sincerely asking... just in case someone thinks I'm trying to stir the water!)

 

There's a moral code set by society, that humans in all cultures need to ascribe to if we want to be accepted by society, and which we learn from a young age is important.  Religion is an easy way to teach this moral code, and to encourage people to self-enforce, but people without religion are certainly able to pick it up along the way, too, and are just as capable of keeping their adulterous thoughts and murderous rage to themselves.

 

People who live only for their own happiness aren't going to have a very easy time living in a community of peers.  It requires some give and take, not sleeping with your neighbor's wife or taking their things or killing their kids/livestock.  This is universally true.  Since humans are social animals, who need to live in packs to survive, it's actually just as easy to ascribe to the moral code of the pack for an atheist as it is for a Christian (which is to say that some people don't... but I'm not aware of atheists being statistically more likely to be murderers or thieves or whatever).

[SemiSweet]

I am an atheist for about 6 years now, the transition was a slow and somewhat painful ordeal but I truly believe I have come out MORE moral than I was. A book telling me how to behave and giving an easy "out" so to speak with forgiveness is much easier to follow than having to deal with yourself and only yourself when you do something wrong. I don't need a book to tell me not to steal because stealing harms another person therefore it is innately wrong. The overriding "right and wrong" for most people I know comes from two things, respect and not harming others. If you are doing those then you are in fact quite moral.

 

Your dh and dd are harming you and I imagine there is some hurt and insecurity in their new beliefs causing them to lash out but that doesn't make their behavior okay. I would talk to my dh, definitely check out the seven principles of Unitarianism, and really try to keep the lines of communication as open as possible as you go on this journey together.

 

My life improved a thousand fold when I started living for myself. I was unable to be happy and even content as a Christian, it just didn't feel true. I tried long and hard to fool myself but in the end I couldn't do it any longer and I'm such a better person for it. I'm so much happier, kinder, and much more giving than I ever was before. I actively participate in charities and helping others much more now, whereas a Christian I really only did church stuff. Of course this is only my experience and my journey, but becoming atheist allowed me to care more for people as they are, with no self-righteousness or strings attached. Good luck.

[klinkermom]

I must admit that I am far more impressed with the selflessness of an atheist compared to that of a Christian. There is no hope of eternal paradise with a God who greets you with a "Well done, good and faithful servant" for an atheist. I don't believe that's the only motivation for Christians, but it is a pretty strong one.

[BrookValley.]

So, I know Christians get their moral code from the Bible.  But where do athiests get theirs?  If there is no overriding "right and wrong" or moral code that is outside of ourselves (God) and all we have is the here and now, why wouldn't we just live for our own happiness?  It seems that the OP is in need of something to hold before her family as an absolute to live up to like she used to have... but what is that absolute for the atheist?  (I'm sincerely asking... just in case someone thinks I'm trying to stir the water!)

 

Wrong is...wrong. I have never needed any outside source (i.e., religion, bible) to tell me that. I strive to be a decent human being, and teach my children the same. Period.  I find the idea that there has to be some sort of moral guide in the form of a book/religion/etc...nonsensical? I just don't understand it. I understand that others may look to religion for enrichment, but if the only thing standing between Good You and Bad You is a book, well, that's sad.

 

Yep, we as a human race are just pure evil.  That is just the way we were born.  Without God's saving grace we would be completely lost.  It is only because God is absolutely good that I even have a chance to be so.  Otherwise, yes, I would choose evil.

 

:blink:   That is truly terrifying. Is this a commonly held perception among Christians?

[LucyStoner]

You could flip that around. If someone needs to be told by a book or leader or external rewards/punishments of heaven and hell to know what is right and wrong do they really get what is right and wrong? Are they really a good person or are they just trying to get to heaven and stay out of hell? I wouldn't argue that because it is offensive but it's an example to show how it is similarly offensive to wonder how people can have a moral code without religion.

 

I am not religious but no one who meets me would say I lack a moral code. In fact right now I have custody of 2 extra kids because their parents can't care for them. I restructured my life and home at the drop of a hat to, without any financial assistance, help two kids who need it. I do what I can, when I can, where I can to help others. Always. And I don't need the threat of hellfire to keep me from doing immoral or selfish or bad things either. It's a good life.

[Spryte]

Yep, we as a human race are just pure evil.  That is just the way we were born.  Without God's saving grace we would be completely lost.  It is only because God is absolutely good that I even have a chance to be so.  Otherwise, yes, I would choose evil.

 

How dreadfully sad.  

 

I am an athiest, and I don't choose evil.  In fact, I'd have to say that overall, I have a much brighter, positive view of humanity.  I don't need the threat of hell to convince me that there are rights and wrongs, that treating others with kindness is the right thing to do, that living ethically is a good choice, that the golden rule applies to everyone.  My child does not watch inappropriate shows (for his age) or use foul language.  He is kind to other children and has a finely honed sense of right and wrong that has nothing to do with fear.  In fact, I think that teaching our children to be kind, to be ethical *without* a sense of fear is a gift that we give to them.  Part of living ethically is respecting that others may choose differently, so we don't make fun of people who choose religion, nor do we say that they are [insert insult of choice, including that they are evil, or choosing evil].  

[rebbyribs]

You might want to read Raising Freethinkers, which discusses ethics and morality as well as creating family culture and finding community without religion.  

[Aelwydd]

Wrong is...wrong. I have never needed any outside source (i.e., religion, bible) to tell me that. I strive to be a decent human being, and teach my children the same. Period.  I find the idea that there has to be some sort of moral guide in the form of a book/religion/etc...nonsensical? I just don't understand it. I understand that others may look to religion for enrichment, but if the only thing standing between Good You and Bad You is a book, well, that's sad.

 

 

:blink:   That is truly terrifying. Is this a commonly held perception among Christians?

 

 

No, it's not.  I like to turn this whole "would you be evil without God" thing around though.  Remember in the OT where God commands the Israelites in several places to kill every man, woman, child, and even the beasts of a given city being conquered?

 

Well, as a Christian, I would often ponder on what if God commanded me to kill someone. I realized I would disobey.  I would not kill someone, except in self defense, and I certainly wouldn't do it to conquer and take their land and resources. 

 

So, it's not Christianity, then, that dictated if I would kill another, because I would not go into someone's abode, and in cold blood, slash open or bash someone's skull in to take their property, whether or not God commanded me.  I refrain from killing because it's unfathomable to me to take someone's life like that, especially a child's.

[Χά�ων]

Yep, we as a human race are just pure evil.  That is just the way we were born.  Without God's saving grace we would be completely lost.  It is only because God is absolutely good that I even have a chance to be so.  Otherwise, yes, I would choose evil.

This makes me very sad. 

[klinkermom]

Thank you for the replies. It is rudeness, and with my husband not "on board" anymore, I feel defeated. Someone on this thread mentioned that the antagonism probably stems from the recent "realization" they've had, and I do think that has a lot to do with it. I've had lots of talks with dh, and it isn't as bad as it used to be. I think the reason is because I've started questioning faith myself.

 

I hate this place I'm in - not knowing what to believe anymore. It is depressing and lonely, and I'd give just about anything to go back 5 years to a time when my husband and I both believed and prayed with our kids and took them to church. I want the community and love of a church family, and I don't want to be shunned by everyone we know. Even my sister isn't crazy about us hanging out with her family for fear that her kids will stop believing too. Forgive me - I know I'm being childish, but when I said my world turned upside down, it wasn't an exaggeration. This is not something I feel I can share with friends right now, so it's really nice to be able to talk about it -even with strangers!

[poppy]

 

:blink:   That is truly terrifying. Is this a commonly held perception among Christians?

 

I've heard it before.  We'd all be evil if it weren't for His grace. It seems really self-congratulatory to me.  It's always said people who didn't choose evil. But sure do feel "blessed" to the other 70% of the world's population. 

[poppy]

Thank you for the replies. It is rudeness, and with my husband not "on board" anymore, I feel defeated. Someone on this thread mentioned that the antagonism probably stems from the recent "realization" they've had, and I do think that has a lot to do with it. I've had lots of talks with dh, and it isn't as bad as it used to be. I think the reason is because I've started questioning faith myself.

 

I hate this place I'm in - not knowing what to believe anymore. It is depressing and lonely, and I'd give just about anything to go back 5 years to a time when my husband and I both believed and prayed with our kids and took them to church. I want the community and love of a church family, and I don't want to be shunned by everyone we know. Even my sister isn't crazy about us hanging out with her family for fear that her kids will stop believing too. Forgive me - I know I'm being childish, but when I said my world turned upside down, it wasn't an exaggeration. This is not something I feel I can share with friends right now, so it's really nice to be able to talk about it -even with strangers!

 

Wow, that is really horrible of her. I'm so sorry.

 

I am not a theist, but I do go to a UU church, and I enjoy the community there. It sounds like you are not in a part of the country where you'll find lots of UU options.  But I do encourage you to look into it.

[Kathryn]

I'm on a phone so can't respond directly to all that I want, but my further thoughts:

 

Before I was a Christian, I was "moral" because it's the right thing to do. I didn't need God or a book to show me that. And that is how I teach my children as well. I've never threatened them with the withdrawal of God's love or presence for their wrongdoing. When we discuss why we treat others a certain way or do certain things, I tell them that to live among other people, we need to treat others with kindness and respect. If we aren't willing to do that, people won't want to be around us. And if we go further and break laws, we will be forcibly removed from other people. We treat others the way we want and expect to be treated because that's part of the human social contract.

 

I find the idea that one is only "good" to escape punishment from a vengeful God extremely sad and frightening. I'm glad that that is not the God that I know and have taught my children to know.