n/m

[Colleen in NS]

.

[QueenCat]

:grouphug: Colleen :grouphug: ,

I'd have looked for a new church home too.

[Whereneverever]

I'm so sorry. I think this is an excellent example of why clergy shouldn't have anything to do with the finances of a church- pastoral care shouldn't be dependent on giving.

I hope you can find a healthy church to belong to, that cares for you whether you are currently able to contribute financially or not.

[Hikin' Mama]

(((Colleen))) I'm sorry you have gone through this. IMHO, tithing is between God and giver, period. I don't think pastors should ever be allowed to know who gives what. And I say this as a person who tithes regularly.

 

I hope you and your family can get the resolution you need.

[MysteryJen]

:grouphug: I am so sorry.

 

We have had a similar experience. That is all I can say without getting upset about it again.

[Jenn121]

I am so sorry.  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

That is too much power for one man. Our church NEVER brings up financial issues individually. Yes they keep track of our giving but only so that they may send out amount to tithers for tax purposes.  It is between God and you how much and who you give to. I am also sorry that he would not listen.

 

I hope you can find a church that you can feel welcome in.  I will pray for you.

 

Jenn

[HS Mom in NC]

OK, I only got a few paragraphs in and that's all I need to know.

 

When looking for a church, that is, before you join a church,  I advise 3 things: 

 

1. Get a copy of their budget.  If they freely give it to you, then decide BEFORE YOU JOIN if they have the same ideas about money as you do.  If not, don't join.  If they don't freely give it to you, don't join.

 

2. Get a copy of their doctrinal statement.  Compare it to your non-negotiable doctrinal beliefs.  If you can't articulate your non-negotiable doctrinal beliefs, you're not ready to look for a church. If theirs conflict with any of your non-negotiables then don't join.

 

3. Get a copy of their church constitution (if they're a denomination that has one) or the equivalent official document that explains how the church operates.  If you aren't willing to live with the way the church functions, don't join.  If they're unwilling to give it to you, don't join. This includes things like decision making, discipline issues, ministry priorities, etc.

 

 

Set up a time to meet with someone knowledgeable about the above 3 things (preferably the person/people with the most authority) who can answer your questions  about those documents and who can give you examples of how they've handled those types of issues in the past. Expect general information, not names of people involved. Read those documents thoroughly and have a list of questions ready.  Consider sending a copy of those questions before hand because it may take time to get the answers.

 

If you've done all those things and they match up well with your ideas about how things should happen, then you're ready to join a church.

 

I go to a church with no paid staff and no building. We rent a gymnasium at a Christian school and all our 4 elders are tentmakers like the apostle Paul. One owns a restaurant, one is a real estate lawyer, one has a business selling some sort of tech product and I forget what the other one does. We have no plan to build and our money goes to rent, widows (all single women are on the widows list) church members in need, a ministry to orphans and African refugees and missionaries who live in the mission field. 

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm sorry. That doesn't sound like a good situation for you at all. I can't believe there is no church board making decisions.

[happi duck]

I have btdt and it does really hurt.

((Hugs))

[amyco]

I am so sorry it's been such a struggle, Colleen!   I believe you are in the right, if it makes you feel any better.  It's hard for me to imagine a church that does not let parishoners vote or ask questions on financial matters.  Every church I've ever been in has to get majority approval for the yearly budget and special projects, and this only after discussion and questions.  It seems much more healthy that way. 

 

I hope you will find a church you love, and not let this color your views too much.  It might take a while for you to recover and feel like you want to be involved with another church, and that's okay.  Just be patient with yourself and your family.  It's a big transition even under good circumstances. 

[Colleen in NS]

.

[Parrothead]

I quit reading after the email.  It sounds like the pastor is money-hungry.  I don't think he should be keeping that close tabs on who is giving what. 

 

My personal feeling is that 10% equals more than cash.  Tithing is not just treasure.  It also includes time and talent.  I've never understood how a church leader would demand 10% of a family's income when the family is struggling to make ends meet. I'm sorry it took your dh so long to get the wake up call, but I'm thankful that he finally did.

 

If it were me I'd go to a new church.  While friends and fellowship are important the purpose of church is for worship and to reinforce our faith. Not to beat us down. 

[TheAutumnOak]

:grouphug:  I am so sorry you are dealing with this...

 

I have also gone to a church since 1996...I also left this year, not because of anything like you mention, but just because my views of Christianity has changed dramatically...It is tough to leave behind all of your relationships and people who have been there for you and you have been there for also for the past 17 years...

 

Pray for wisdom and guidance...I will pray for you as well...

 

:grouphug: 

[Rosie_0801]

:grouphug:

[happi duck]

OK, I only got a few paragraphs in and that's all I need to know.

 

When looking for a church, that is, before you join a church,  I advise 3 things: 

 

1. Get a copy of their budget.  ...

 

2. Get a copy of their doctrinal statement.  ...

 

3. Get a copy of their church constitution (if they're a denomination that has one) or the equivalent official document that explains how the church operates.  ...

 

 

Set up a time to meet with someone knowledgeable about the above 3 things...

 

If you've done all those things and they match up well with your ideas about how things should happen, then you're ready to join a church.

This sounds good in theory but manipulative people/places can look good on paper and talk the talk. Even in the midst of things they can be doing one thing while saying another and all the while making you feel crazy or at fault if you question it.

[happi duck]

I edited my post - there is a board, but I'm pretty convinced he ultimately makes the decisions.

Probably. Ime, a pastor like this has a board of "yes men" so that he can say "the board decided" instead of "I decided".

[NASDAQ]

Ouch. That is really rough.

 

I admire your marriage. The dynamics sound so comfortable and healthy.

[poppy]

That's a whole lot about "how I expect to be treated" and "how much I expect you to give" from a man whose job should be asking very different questions and seeing what he can offer YOU. Awful. I'm so sorry.

[gardenmom5]

this is just my impression. (and I hope this is all it was. re: not spending church money elsewhere.)  you *had* a pastor who came up with all these projects, REGARDLESS of how much they all cost.   He sounds like "an unwise" fiscal steward.   I would be willing to lay odds the financial pressure on members is because he started spending over his head, and wasn't meeting the obligations to which he'd brought upon the church. 

 

responsible churches keep very good records of where the money goes, and are held accountable for what they do with that money.

he's stressed about money, because he's an idiot.

 

 

he sounds very controlling to get people to comply (in this case, he ostracizes people who don't.  that's actually a sign of an abuser.)

I wouldn't go back.  count yourself lucky you got out.

 

eta: look into reading up on healing from abuse.

[Ellie]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Caribbean Queen]

I really don't see this as a case of a pastor on a power trip.  I think you joined a church, and later decided not to stop following church rules.  When you got told to follow the rules, you got offended and quit.  People don't join, or leave organizations which they don't want to conform to all the time.  While I can understand being sad about missing friends, I don't get stewing over it for weeks.  It isn't as if the church rules were outrageous and sinful like, "All women must leave their husbands.  All girls and woman over the age of 12 are the pastor's wives."  The rules were based on the Bible.  I don't believe God requires tithing, but I can see why many (normal, mainstream) churches interpret the Bible that way.  It's easier to Biblically defend tithing, than to defend giving 0% of your income in 2 and a half years. 

 

Like your pastor, I would not have believed that you were undecided about leaving the church.  I would have been annoyed to hear it through the grapevine when I specifically taught how I wish people would be forthcoming when leaving the church.

 

Our family has low income and I really do understand not wanting to give money to frivolous projects and luxurious lifestyles.  My church has a soup kitchen which serves people poorer than myself, such as homeless men, and I appreciate the opportunity to give money and/or food to that fund, specifically. 

 

[DB in NJ]

The pastor should not look at the giving record if it can be avoided. No way should he know who gives what if at all possible.

 

Is tithing biblical? Yes. But I think your pastor is overstepping healthy boundaries.

 

Giving has been down at our church too. Our pastor & his wife are both paid staff (she is the church secretary). Between the two of them, including benefits (insurance, utilities, pastoral enrichment, taxes paid on their behalf & salaries), we pay them over $102,000 a year.

 

They take more vacation time, day trips, weeks at a time trips to see their kids in other states, etc. It's ridiculous.

 

We just had a congregational meeting and voted on the new budget. No one even batted an eye. As long as things stay that way, they will continue to get paid & take all the time off they want.

 

We have a deacon board that dh has served on. It has been incredibly frustrating for him. He says it's like everyone is sleepwalking.

 

Anyway, I don't blame you for leaving. I sure wish we could leave our church but we really don't feel like we can right now.

[Liz CA]

Colleen, congratulations on severing the ties. Perhaps one day it will feel helpful to recall that churches are full of people and therefore we will get hurt and offended. What happened there was not your or your dh's fault. God would not want you to be in a stressful situation but in a fellowship where you feel warmly welcomed, supported and loved for who you are and regardless of tithing. In the scenario you described, my red flag went up early in your story.

 

1. Pastor knows who is tithing how much?? Isn't this usually handled by a treasurer or accountant?

 

2. Veiled "threats" or implied consequences for leaving the church without meeting or talking to him?? Church going is voluntary. You are not accountable to the pastor.

 

3. Constantly interrupting a congregant is not the sign of a compassionate person interested in what is on your mind.

 

Ask God for healing, rest and peace for your family. And when you feel it's the right time, you can look for another church.

[bettyandbob]

:grouphug:  It's really painful to leave a church you thought was your church. I know.  :grouphug:

[bolt.]

This is a tough season, emotionally and relationally painful. That's the reality, and it's OK to be in that space. Like all "seasons" the pain of this transition will pass. It will fade, and things will be just fine again for you -- probably within 6-12 months, if nothing gets stirred up in the meantime.

 

For what it's worth, I think you are making a wise choice.

[Incognito]

Sounds terrible.  FWIW, I really wouldn't go for "one last" visit.  If there are people you want to see/hug, have them over for coffee.

 

This pastor thinks it is his job to convict people on their tithing.  He is not going to see eye to eye with you.  Also, FWIW, he may be offering you to talk with him because when you transfer churches the church that takes you wants to have an understanding of how you left the former church (and that any problems have been resolved).  Where we are they use the words "were a member in good standing" or some such.  He's probably just trying to say he will give you that recommendation if you want it.

 

[Prairie~Phlox]

I am so sorry you had to go through this.  Our pastor doesn't even know what people give.  It's the financial secretary's job to keep track of what's coming in and the rest of the board on how to handle things. 

[Susan C.]

Colleen,

There is so much wrong here. I will weigh in later with more when I can read it all. I think we are in similar journeys.

 

1. Pastor should never see who gives what.

2. Pastor gets to do what he wants with funds with no accountability.

3. Pastor is not respectful of those in his church.

 

ADDING: I'm sorry you have to go through this. And, please, don't tell the pastor where you are going, if he knows, you may need to give the new pastor a heads up.... and chances are that new pastor already knows what is going on.

 

:grouphug:

[kbutton]

I am sorry you are going through this. We left a church after being there for about 12 years. It was really hard. Do not give up hope! It will take time, but there are good churches out there.

 

I think there are currently some trends that gained ground for good reasons but are running amok, and those trends surround the idea of authority, accountability (such as with giving, attendance, etc.), vision-casting, etc. I also think a good number of pastors think they are pre-empting problems by not getting "bogged down" in "unproductive discussions." I believe there are people that do hamper pastors with cynicism, refusal to change on anything, etc., but I think many pastors have decided that all pushback must be wrong.

 

We felt a bit betrayed and stabbed in the back by our old church. We considered the current pastor a personal friend, but he became rather controlling and negative after a while, and he was not open to discussion...and if he were to ever read any of this, I think he would be shocked and dismayed. I truly believe he is a good man, but he really hurt us, and we can't talk about it with him. We lost him as a friend when we left. When we left, I feel like we were walking a tightrope between being stabbed in the back and being the ones to stab others in the back because dialog with anyone about the issue was nearly impossible. The people in the situations did not see our point of view--we had been very faithful in pretty much every way for years, but as time passed, when we needed things, our needs were not only ignored, but deemed extraneous by official policy and church culture. To try to articulate this to others, we were essentially passing judgment when they LIKED the status quo (there was a lot to like about the church if your needs were the ones being met). We felt cut out, and while we were assured that it wasn't purposeful, it kind of rings hollow after a while. That would have been disheartening enough, but at the same time, we were asked to "pony up" in certain ways to prove loyalty (this was pushed on the whole congregation, not just us). In this case, volunteering MORE time and energy with less input allowed into the ministries we were a part of. The volunteer opportunities that suited us were curtailed or micromanaged into oblivion, and long-term goals became the focus without any discussion about how that effected day-to-day ministry. In addition, there was a subtle suggestion from the pulpit nearly every week about how true Christians could be known by their fruit, and the lack of commitment to the ministries of our specific church showed a lack of fruit. I felt like I had to leave just to preserve my faith. Sometimes a church culture starts behaving a certain way due to pressure, and they don't see that tightening the controls in an area (again, this is a church that isn't controlling overall) can lead to leadership squeezing the sheep.

 

We are currently in a much better situation. Our pastor has much more control than what I would normally be comfortable with, but he is the most humble man I've ever met, and he proclaims his responsibility rather than claiming his authority. He also is willing to change as needed (he never ties his personal identity into his own ideas--they are all considered expendable if needed), and he voluntarily runs his ideas by dozens of people in leadership before ever running them by the congregation (it's a big church). He frequently talks from the pulpit about his ideas and about how he responds to the feedback he receives. He actually has fun with it and says things like, "I wanted to, but they wouldn't let me...and it's a good thing because it was a really dumb idea." When he retires, we'll probably give the new guy a chance, but if the church gives him as much power as they do this pastor, I don't think much good can come of it (unless he's really experienced at handling it appropriately).

 

FWIW, the best pastors we've known have been men who were originally reluctant to pastor (and would not want to be pastors for anything if God had not called them to it), love the people in their churches, worked in the "real world" before becoming pastors, etc. They seem to really get the people in the pews and not see them as roadblocks to their success.

[Pawz4me]

I'm sorry.  I know it's hard.  We left our last church over a similar issue.  We didn't have a personal confrontation with the pastor, but I got fed up with watching him spend lavishly on (IMO) frivolous things while continually laying guilt trips (some subtle and some very overt) on the congregation about the need to give more and more.  There were senior citizens on fixed incomes who did w/o necessities so the pastor's son's praise band could get a new sound system.  That is NOT what tithing is supposed to be about.

[milovany]

Colleen, I'm so sorry.  What a difficult situation to be in. Your strong desire for a healthy, godly church situation is very, very normal.  Christianity IS Church (since Church is the body of Christ) and I will pray for you as you continue to seek His fullness and will. 

 

Hugs. 

[jelbe5]

I am so sorry. There is full disclosure at the church we attend. There is an annual report and we vote on how money is used in the church. The Church Council (with elected members) guides church decisions. We are pleased with how the finances are handled and only give financially to our church and not to other charities.

 

If I was in your situation I would be very hurt and would be considering a new church. Churches are run by people and people make mistakes and bad decisions at times. Sometimes Pastors are great spiritual leaders but not the best financial leaders. I hope your family can find what you are looking for. Hugs.

[HS Mom in NC]

This sounds good in theory but manipulative people/places can look good on paper and talk the talk. Even in the midst of things they can be doing one thing while saying another and all the while making you feel crazy or at fault if you question it.

 

But it's a good solid start.  When I listen to the woes of members who are leaving their churches, it's often because of clearly stated policy that could've easily been known up front. Whether or not that's the case with the OP, she's moving on, so I'm trying to get her to do what is the most effective way to eliminate churches that are not a good fit right away.   I don't suggest all problems will be solved by following my suggestions, but I guarantee a WHOLE LOT of problems can be avoided if visitors ask for this kind of information.  Imagine if this was the norm and not the exception of every visitor walking through the doors of every church.  Church leadership would be on notice that people are asking questions and expect answers- a very good healthy mindset in all churches, both for the leadership and the congregation.

 

Leadership should always respond to questions from the membership about what they're doing and why in any aspect of church life with cheerful disclosure and transparency.  Anything else is a red flag.  That doesn't mean they have to dish details about confidential counseling situations and such, but policy and practices should be an open book free to question at any time by any one.

[Caribbean Queen]

The pastor should not look at the giving record if it can be avoided. No way should he know who gives what if at all possible.

 

Is tithing biblical? Yes. But I think your pastor is overstepping healthy boundaries.

 

Suppose the pastor honestly believes that failing to tithe is a sin.  If someone is not tithing then he would see the need to correct them.  He might think turning a blind eye to who tithes would be neglecting his duty.  Asking someone who has not given any money in over two years to tithe, per the rules of the church, is not overstepping healthy boundaries, in my opinion. 

[gardenmom5]

I really don't see this as a case of a pastor on a power trip.  I think you joined a church, and later decided not to stop following church rules.  When you got told to follow the rules, you got offended and quit.   

 

no dear.  let me explain.  he was unprofessional AT BEST.

this applies to anything a congregant does that can be considered "not following the rules".

if this minister was truly concerned about *them*, he would have set up a time convenient to them both (which she attempted to do, but her ex-minister wasn't interested) spoken with them in private and. listened. to. their. concerns. and then helped to address those (another thing in which he was. not. interested.)  - NOT confronted them in front of other members of the group.  that was nothing more than an attempt of using peer pressure to get what he wanted - which was money.

[gardenmom5]

Suppose the pastor honestly believes that failing to tithe is a sin.  If someone is not tithing then he would see the need to correct them.  He might think turning a blind eye to who tithes would be neglecting his duty.  Asking someone who has not given any money in over two years to tithe, per the rules of the church, is not overstepping healthy boundaries, in my opinion. 

 

and how do you feel about him calling them out about not paying tithing in front of other church members?  is that manipulative inciting of peer pressure? or do you think he was right to do it that way?

 

[bettyandbob]

I've been thinking about this more. I've never been a member of church where the pastor knew which members gave what amount. There was always someone on staff who did because someone had to prepare those statements for your tax records, but it was never the pastor. That seems so wrong. 

 

I've left a church over a completely different issue and leaving was/still is painful. 

[Doodlebug]

I am really sorry to hear about your situation. I grew up in churches with similar authority issues, which ultimately led to me joining a mainstream denomination with a distinct polity. While corruption is in every denomination, the clear lines of authority offer me the hope of trust.

It hurts so badly, I know. We are in a church search now since our parish closed its doors in May, and I am literally grieving the familiarity, the Dr. Seuss Christmas Eve service, the faces. It's hard. My grief isn't helping me be open to new churches so far.

I will say that your former pastor doesn't surprise me... He seems the typical pastor of that type of church. He probably considers biblical tithing part of your Christian responsibility, and thus his pastoral responsibility to you is to remind you. That doesn't make him corrupt... But it does make him part of a church paradigm that invites suspicion. And that's what I really dislike, for him as much as for you and those in that church.

It sounds as though the church didn't change as much as you and your DH did. BTDT, bought the T shirt, went on tour. I hope in time the anger gives way to thankfulness that you've moved on to a place where you can worship and give un encumbered.

 

[Colleen in NS]

.

 

[DB in NJ]

The pastor who doesn't see the giving records is more free to preach on giving and tithing because he has no idea who is giving what. When a pastor knows how much everyone is giving, he is more open to playing favorites or being accused of doing so.

[Colleen in NS]

.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:  Sounds to me like you need some time to grieve. It sounds like it was a very good thing for your family that you got out of there and I am so glad it hasn't destroyed your faith. Don't engage with the old pastor anymore. He's not going to give you what you want/need. :grouphug: :grouphug:

[poppy]

I hope the email to the 20 delinquent families was a bcc.

[bettyandbob]

A public call-out did not happen - please read my last post.

 

 

Colleen, even if there wasn't a public call-out, the fact that he knew was wrong. His knowing how much each member is giving can affect his ability to properly minister. In this case it sounds like it did affect his abilities. Many churches do not have the pastor know how much each parishioner is giving. If you decide to search for a new church home it might be good for you to find out such policies at the churches you visit. 

 

ETA: since I've never been to a church where a pastor had access to such information, it never occurred to me to find out what the church policy was before reading this thread. 

[Carol in Cal.]

PM'd you.  ((Colleen))

 

 

[Another Lynn]

:grouphug: Colleen, I'm so sorry!

[Twigs]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[WishboneDawn]

I really don't see this as a case of a pastor on a power trip.  I think you joined a church, and later decided not to stop following church rules.  When you got told to follow the rules, you got offended and quit.  People don't join, or leave organizations which they don't want to conform to all the time.  While I can understand being sad about missing friends, I don't get stewing over it for weeks.

 

 

17 years. the break up of a relationship that went on for 17 years should only take a few days to get over or something? To find out, after 17 years, the only value your pastor saw in you was that tithe cheque, that might not take a little time to get over?

 

It isn't as if the church rules were outrageous and sinful like, "All women must leave their husbands.  All girls and woman over the age of 12 are the pastor's wives."  The rules were based on the Bible.  I don't believe God requires tithing, but I can see why many (normal, mainstream) churches interpret the Bible that way.  It's easier to Biblically defend tithing, than to defend giving 0% of your income in 2 and a half years.

 

 

Wait a minute.

 

A minister ministers. A minister supports and encourages people in their own ministries. A minister calls his/her congregation to the table to refresh and mentor them spiritually.

 

A minister is not God's by-law enforcement officer meant to be handing out tickets to those he thinks have sinned or run up against the "rules".

 

Like your pastor, I would not have believed that you were undecided about leaving the church.  I would have been annoyed to hear it through the grapevine when I specifically taught how I wish people would be forthcoming when leaving the church.

 

Wait...You would have listened to the gossip, decided what Colleen thought before speaking with her rather then taking the time to listen to her concerns?

 

Our family has low income and I really do understand not wanting to give money to frivolous projects and luxurious lifestyles.  My church has a soup kitchen which serves people poorer than myself, such as homeless men, and I appreciate the opportunity to give money and/or food to that fund, specifically.

 

 

I imagine that if the tithing was going to projects like a soup kitchen Colleen and her DH would not have been so troubled. After all, they tithed for many, many years when they were struggling. the issue is NOT their unwillingness to tithe. 

 

There's no justifying what this pastor is doing and has done. It is not what happens in healthy, well-run churches with well-adjusted, honest, caring ministers. The only way I could think someone might think it was acceptable was if they were in a similar relationship with their own church and didn't realize how messed up that dynamic is.

 

 

[milovany]

I kinda disagree with the thought that a pastor should "never" see giving records. I'm not saying a pastor should, just that I don't think it's always deleterious if one does. I'm pretty sure our priest has access to who gives what, but it's still never food for discussion. Even privately, he never says anything to us about giving unless WE bring it up as a matter of counsel (and we trust his counsel).  The one time recently I brought it up, I said something like "Because I work on school year calendar, should I average out my giving so I can give over the summer, too, or just give as the money comes in?" (which would mean no money from my income over the summer) and all he said was, "It's up to you." 

 

That said, I do believe -- based on the information given in the OP -- that this pastor crossed several lines. 

[Ottakee]

I will say up front that I believe in tithing BUT I do not feel that the pastor should know who gives what, how much, when, etc. The money should be counted/recorded by at least 2 unrelated people and records for taxes kept but beyond that, no one else should know.

 

We left a church under a year ago that we had been members of for 27 years. It was tough but a decision we should have made even earlier. I agree with not going back. It isn't likely to help anything and most likely will make things worse.

 

Sorry your family has had to go through this. It is very hard. Right now we are actively attending a church that is not our denomination but similar. It has a much more contemporary service than my ideal but the word of God is preached, people are reaching out to each other and those in the community, and our family has gotten involved and been blessed.