Unbelievable (youth group related...and long)

[Denisemomof4]

The problem, though, is that the new youth pastor inherited a youth group that was completely "gelled" (is that a word). This is an amazing group of young people who love their families and who are very used to being with a huge range of ages (the majority are homeschooled) without any issue. My gut is that the youth leader is seeking less "gel" and more "separation".

 

y.

 

Then why call it a youth group if it is not for the youth?

 

There are family bible studies with materials specifically for families. We did one of these once and it was great! Maybe this is what you need?

[bobbeym]

:iagree: with everything previously posted.

 

The locked doors would be a HUGE red flag for me, both for safety and potential for abuse reasons. None of the churches we've attended in our town locked doors during youth services, and more than one adult was present at all times.

 

Our youth group is grades 6-12 and is about 120 kids. Our current youth pastors are in their late-20s (a married couple) with at least a dozen youth leader helpers that range from the 18yo leadership interns to parents in their 30s and 40s. We're trained to never put ourselves or allow ourselves to be put into a situation where we're alone with a student. Even the weekly connection group meetings that are held off-site have 2 leaders in attendance. While younger siblings aren't typically encouraged at youth events b/c it is a time set aside for youth, they aren't turned away and parents are always welcome to attend and participate.

 

Once the kids graduate high school, they transition to a young adult group (18-25) that is led by the senior pastor and his wife, as well as being transitioned into the various women's and men's ministry programs that are available.

 

To the OP, I would definitely talk with the other parents and if request a group meeting with the youth pastor and church pastor to express your concerns about the changes that are happening.

[Denisemomof4]

 

"You have to use this kind of stuff to get kids in and win them to Christ." I about fell out of my chair when I heard that one.

 

 

:cursing:

 

It sounds like they're not playing those games now?

 

I have heard that stupid reasoning before.:glare:

[mytwomonkeys]

i don't believe in a locked door policy (although our youth definitely has a secured environment that is manned by many volunteers to ensure safety on all levels...we even have a cop on campus). i would be appalled if those video games were permitted. that would be an issue for me. i do agree though that youth deserve a place to be separate from their families and younger siblings. that sounds very reasonable and very fair. i will volunteer when my daughter is in youth next year serving as a leader so i'm aware of all that takes place. but i would not expect to go weekly with my son and just hang out. i think your issue is more to do with the judgement calls the youth pastor is making, so that is what i would address.

[besroma]

:glare: at the situation and :grouphug: to you and yours!

 

:iagree: I would be upset also.

[Amy in NH]

Surely you can find Bible quiz type programs at another church with leaders with better judgment and wisdom.

 

:iagree: Or do your own quiz game at home and invite some friends. Seriously, I would pull my own kids from a program where violent video games are pushed and families are excluded.

[Denisemomof4]

Ummm.... NO!!! I love the idea of youth group, but I clearly remember all the "sinning" I did when youth group was closed from parents. IMO, and my oldest is only 12, a good youth pastor should welcome/beg for/encourage parent participation. This guy wants to lock the parents out? Oh he!! no! Silly me thought youth group was intended to encourage young teens in their life with Christ. And a pastor making a unilateral decision like that? Would not fly in this house (not that our Pastor would ever do such a thing). If I were you, I too would be livid.

 

Am I incorrect in assuming there are other adults present, male and female both? This was how we ran our youth group. The boys could speak to the males if they wanted counsel, the girls to the females.

 

If this youth leader is alone with all those kids, I would have a serious issue with that. We always had five adults present, two males, two females and the pastor or youth leader, even when the group was small. No opportunity for sin, and I separated hugging teens more than once when we were out at events.

[Denisemomof4]

One more thing (not that my opinion matters):tongue_smilie: we never locked doors and the door had a glass window. No privacy there. If the Yg was huge, we held it in the sanctuary and parents went into the classrooms. Doors were closed if the parents were loud. If they weren't loud, they could leave the door open and listen in on things.

 

Ok. I won't respond anymore.

[mommaduck]

#1 issue, you were lied to. I don't care how big or small the lie is, the fact is that the pastor lied to you.

 

#2 I disagree with the whole "gelling" issue. Sounds like everyone was doing just fine and perhaps the youth pastor simply didn't want to have to deal with his own child. I can show you church after church where there was no youth group and the families did just fine. Sure, teens could use some time on their, but why mess with what already worked?

 

#3 youth pastor with a kids that they themselves cannot control....tossed up on this one as we don't know the child's issues fully.

 

#4 video games? Seriously? Wrong time, wrong place. If they are just there for the games, then nothing else will sink in unless the kid wants it...it does not happen by osmosis.

 

#5 locked doors with no parental access. I have a BIG problem with this.

 

I would leave. I would not want either of those two pastors over myself or my children. No way, no how.

[Anne in CA]

The youth pastor isn't going to be there to solve the problems he creates.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

To go a step farther, I will add that my oldest dd's youth pastor created a mess for my dd that never got resolved and she is 24. Honestly, a clueless person messing in the lives of others can do damage that you could not anticipate and that you may not be able to fix. I would leave this church and not look back if the senior pastor is going to back him up without good reasons. But that is my sad experience talking.

[athomemom]

I haven't read all the replies. But I wouldn't drop my kids off with a bunch of people who feel the need to lock the door with me sitting right there. Not to mention that the ministers don't want you to even be there. Something's off and I would leave the church. PERIOD.

[4everHis]

It sounds "what won't work" is for families/parents to be present and therefore somewhat observing the activities. The youth pastor is uncomfortable with parents knowing what he's doing.that's disurbing. I don't have a problem with youth meeting behind closed doors that are unlocked. The problem I have is he's trying create secrecy.

 

I think you need to meet with all the youth group parents and church leadership.

 

I warn my children about people who ask them to keep things from us or to 'hide' from us. This could just be an immature youth pastor but is that REALLY what your church wants leading their youth?:confused:

[KrissiK]

What this guy is doing is wrong on all levels. Scary stuff.

1. Using questionable video games to "attract" kids. This mentality has no basis in Scripture at all. Even the worst of sinners came to Christ because He offered them Truth. Not a "Bait and Switch".

2. The idea that kids like to only be with their own ages is something we have convinced kids of through the age segregation of public education, it is not based in reality. Now, sure, when left to their own devices, kids will probably hang out with other kids their own age/developmental level, but that does not mean they wish to be isolated from other kids of other ages. My own homeschool co-op is the perfect example of this.

 

If I were you, I'd see if there were other like-minded parents and work to get his guy ousted before he does any permanent damage. If that doesn't work, I'd look for a new church.

[mom2scouts]

Uh uh, no way! Do you see the red flags popping up all over? "Leave the youth with me and lock the doors" means something inappropriate is going on (whether violent video games or worse) and there is no way my children would be attending youth events at that church. I've seen it both as a youth member and as a youth leader.

[AnneBlessedx4]

No way. We'd be outta there immediately!

[TammyS]

I really think the issue here isn't what the youth director is doing, but the lack of a real mission FOR the youth group coming FROM the church leadership and members. Probably, he's an ok guy doing what the culture has trained him to do - create teenage sub-culture. Instead of getting stuck on details of what he's doing, I would ask for a time-out for the youth group so that the larger congregation could engage in a discussion of what the purpose of the youth group is (other than "gotta have it cuz everybody else does) and develop a mission and a culture for it, so that whoever leads the youth group will have a direction in which to focus themselves.

[jen3kids]

Hi Jen,

 

I think the next question to ask is, "So how do you handle that? What happens next when a child confides in you?"

 

His answers will tell you plenty about how he views his role and how he views yours.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

His response was that he would keep their confidence, unless the kid was in trouble.

[Carol in Cal.]

I really think the issue here isn't what the youth director is doing, but the lack of a real mission FOR the youth group coming FROM the church leadership and members. Probably, he's an ok guy doing what the culture has trained him to do - create teenage sub-culture. Instead of getting stuck on details of what he's doing, I would ask for a time-out for the youth group so that the larger congregation could engage in a discussion of what the purpose of the youth group is (other than "gotta have it cuz everybody else does) and develop a mission and a culture for it, so that whoever leads the youth group will have a direction in which to focus themselves.

 

I disagree. I think that there WAS a mission and it was working, but that it was not articulated. Which was fine until this new guy came in and thought that he should change it all up with a bunch of stuff that he learned from the 'culture' instead of in community in this particular congregation. If the 'stuff' was theological, and if they were in error, he would be well within his job responsibilities to do this, and I would be the first to applaud. But since it has to do with a false theology of reaching the lost, and since it involves deceptive speech on the part of the pastor, I urge extreme caution.

 

Maybe the church should articulate the culture or mission or customs of the youth group--well and good. But the youth group should not stop while this is happening. Instead, CHANGES should stop while this is happening.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

The original post makes me think that something, or the suggestion of something, inappropriate happened between age groups that they're not sharing.

 

But I'm a little bit paranoid like that.

 

If the majority of the parents want to change it back, then I say get them together and go for it.

[hillfarm]

A note to the pastor:

 

"As I'm sure you are aware, the Bible is very clear about the value of our children (a blessing from the Lord, Psalm 127 ) and our responsibility to protect and parent them well (Proverbs 31, among others). I am very concerned about the direction the youth group is taking under the leadership of XXX, both with regard to my children and also for our church.

 

First, the issue of using violent video games to attract non-believing youth to the church. Do we no longer believe that Jesus is enough? No where in the Bible does God direct believers to use worldly "bait" to attract unbelievers. This is dishonest and deceptive and not something I think the church should do. Is that how God wants us to attract youth? Do you really think Jesus would take a seat and pretend to kill and maim for entertainment?

 

It appears that XXX is actively working to create separation between the young people of our congregation and the rest of the church body. First by offering these violent games that many of our families prohibit in their homes, and now by physically blocking access to our children during youth functions by not allowing families to be present and by locking doors.

With policies like this being heeded, is it any wonder why so many youth don't feel connected to the church body and drift away shortly after graduation?

 

Not only is such division unwise from a relationship standpoint, it also opens the church up to tremendous liability for holding the youth behind locked doors. In the event of a fire or other disaster, locked doors can hinder escape to safety or can prevent emergency personnel from entering to notify occupants of the need to evacuate or to provide aid.

 

They also can be used to hide a variety of illegal or imprudent activity. One claim of abuse or inappropriate permissiveness that occurred behind those locked doors could damage our church's reputation irreparably. Not to mention, open us up to serious liability.

 

XXX has publicly mentioned that his daughter is not well behaved. He is young himself and has only minimal parenting experience. He is not trained as a counselor and would not be qualified to deal with any serious confidences that he is inviting the teens to bring to him instead of to their parents. For these reasons, I am seriously in doubt of the wisdom of many of his decisions as our youth pastor. The Bible warns that our church leaders should be in control of their own families before stepping up to lead our church family. I'm not convinced that XXX has the maturity, training or experience to do that well at this time.

 

You mentioned that there had been a parent meeting where XXX was discussed. I'm curious about the details. Can you please tell me when the meeting was held and give me the names of a few of the parents who attended?

 

(Also call for clarification regarding any other "lies", I can't remember the specifics...)

 

I realize that all of us here love the Lord and we all want to see more youth saved and encouraged in their faith. I am very concerned that we don't adopt worldly attractions and devisive practices that might provide a quick result but not an eternal one.

 

Copy to : Elders, trustees, deacons

[Jean in Newcastle]

Very good, Hillfarm.

[mommaduck]

A note to the pastor:

 

"As I'm sure you are aware, the Bible is very clear about the value of our children (a blessing from the Lord, Psalm 127 ) and our responsibility to protect and parent them well (Proverbs 31, among others). I am very concerned about the direction the youth group is taking under the leadership of XXX, both with regard to my children and also for our church.

 

First, the issue of using violent video games to attract non-believing youth to the church. Do we no longer believe that Jesus is enough? No where in the Bible does God direct believers to use worldly "bait" to attract unbelievers. This is dishonest and deceptive and not something I think the church should do. Is that how God wants us to attract youth? Do you really think Jesus would take a seat and pretend to kill and maim for entertainment?

 

It appears that XXX is actively working to create separation between the young people of our congregation and the rest of the church body. First by offering these violent games that many of our families prohibit in their homes, and now by physically blocking access to our children during youth functions by not allowing families to be present and by locking doors.

With policies like this being heeded, is it any wonder why so many youth don't feel connected to the church body and drift away shortly after graduation?

 

Not only is such division unwise from a relationship standpoint, it also opens the church up to tremendous liability for holding the youth behind locked doors. In the event of a fire or other disaster, locked doors can hinder escape to safety or can prevent emergency personnel from entering to notify occupants of the need to evacuate or to provide aid.

 

They also can be used to hide a variety of illegal or imprudent activity. One claim of abuse or inappropriate permissiveness that occurred behind those locked doors could damage our church's reputation irreparably. Not to mention, open us up to serious liability.

 

XXX has publicly mentioned that his daughter is not well behaved. He is young himself and has only minimal parenting experience. He is not trained as a counselor and would not be qualified to deal with any serious confidences that he is inviting the teens to bring to him instead of to their parents. For these reasons, I am seriously in doubt of the wisdom of many of his decisions as our youth pastor. The Bible warns that our church leaders should be in control of their own families before stepping up to lead our church family. I'm not convinced that XXX has the maturity, training or experience to do that well at this time.

 

You mentioned that there had been a parent meeting where XXX was discussed. I'm curious about the details. Can you please tell me when the meeting was held and give me the names of a few of the parents who attended?

 

(Also call for clarification regarding any other "lies", I can't remember the specifics...)

 

I realize that all of us here love the Lord and we all want to see more youth saved and encouraged in their faith. I am very concerned that we don't adopt worldly attractions and devisive practices that might provide a quick result but not an eternal one.

 

Copy to : Elders, trustees, deacons

The problem is, the pastor openly admitted that there had not been any parent meeting, that it had just been himself and the youth pastor. Basically, he admitted to lying without calling it what it was...and he stalled before he admitted it. I like the rest of this.

[PeacefulChaos]

Well, I haven't read any replies, but what I'm getting from the OP doesn't seem all that outlandish to me. The reasoning, maybe, but idk if it is really a big deal....

 

Eta: I did go back and read many of the responses and I do agree about the whole locked thing being sort of odd, ntm a potential fire safety issue. But I also agree with the sentiment of having them separated. I couldn't read any further, though, because some people have outright contempt for youth programs that kind of gets me fired up even though it has nothing to do with me - I just am a firm believer that well run youth programs are a GOOD thing, and are far more common than the horror stories we hear about the persecuted church things (most youth groups do NOT do that, tyvm. :rolleyes: )

We don't let adults just come and hang out in the youth building all the time. We don't care if parents come to see what is going on or see what it is all about once in awhile, and we have tons of adults there, but its a safety thing IMO. We don't know the parents of all the kids, and there are plenty of adult classes being offered during that time for them to go to if they want to stay on campus. While there are a few little kids who are in there before service (usually their parents are adult leaders), they leave before anything gets started, and when it was me with my kids in there beforehand, I liked to leave as soon as I could take them to their classes because I think the teenagers don't need to always be bothered by the little kids - the youth service is the only time that the youth have that is theirs, and they enjoy it and I don't believe on infringing upon that. Different churches are different, and I get that, so maybe this youth pastors approach just isn't a good fit for your church.

 

As far as the responses talking about 'why have a crappy parent as a youth leader' - really?! Most youth pastors I know are hired from outside the church body and come with recommendations or whatnot. If I don't agree with how they raise their kids, who cares? That is just such an incredibly judgmental statement and it kind of disgusts me.

Edited October 11, 2012 by PeacefulChaos

[hillfarm]

So pull the paragraph about the meeting and substitute this one:

 

"At first I was under the impression that there had been a family meeting regarding XXX, but now am given to understand that it was only between the pastors. I am greatly concerned that in the face of honest but hard questions about the wisdom of certain practices, the solution has been to lock the doors rather than any type of open dialog about the issue."

[mommaduck]

So pull the paragraph about the meeting and substitute this one:

 

"At first I was under the impression that there had been a family meeting regarding XXX, but now am given to understand that it was only between the pastors. I am greatly concerned that in the face of honest but hard questions about the wisdom of certain practices, the solution has been to lock the doors rather than any type of open dialog about the issue."

shoot, you're good! :001_smile:

[TranquilMind]

btw, our youth meet separately for activities, but there is never a locked door and we ALWAYS have access to them.

 

Oh, heck no. No one locks me away from my children, ever.

 

Someone above (Carol?) said that conviction + poor judgment = crazy. She's right.

[TranquilMind]

I haven't read all the replies. But I wouldn't drop my kids off with a bunch of people who feel the need to lock the door with me sitting right there. Not to mention that the ministers don't want you to even be there. Something's off and I would leave the church. PERIOD.

 

Yes. It is just this simple to me. No locking parents out. Period.

[Carol in Cal.]

So pull the paragraph about the meeting and substitute this one:

 

"At first I was under the impression that there had been a family meeting regarding XXX, but now am given to understand that it was only between the pastors. I am greatly concerned that in the face of honest but hard questions about the wisdom of certain practices, the solution has been to lock the doors rather than any type of open dialog about the issue."

 

A slight edit:

 

"Initially I was told that there had been a family meeting regarding xxx but am now given to understand that it was only between the pastors. This deception, although minor-sounding, concerns me as it raises issues of trust between the pastors and the congregation. Thus I am am even more concerned than I normally would be that in the face of honest but hard questions about the wisdom of certain practices, the solution has been to lock the doors and ban parents rather than any type of open dialogue about the issue."

[mommaduck]

Oh, heck no. No one locks me away from my children, ever.

 

Someone above (Carol?) said that conviction + poor judgment = crazy. She's right.

There was one church that was about to split. The day they locked the sanctuary doors after I went to take a little one to the bathroom, leaving my older children in the sanctuary (they were still young, but well behaved enough) and they refused to let me even get my children (so lucky I did not have a cell phone to call the cops), we left that church...along with plenty of others.

[TCoppock]

It sounds "what won't work" is for families/parents to be present and therefore somewhat observing the activities. The youth pastor is uncomfortable with parents knowing what he's doing.that's disurbing. I don't have a problem with youth meeting behind closed doors that are unlocked. The problem I have is he's trying create secrecy.

 

I think you need to meet with all the youth group parents and church leadership.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I totally agree! Why in the world does the door need to be locked, and why aren't parents welcome? What is going on behind those closed locked doors? I wouldn't trust someone who is trying to alienate my child from his family. That is what abusive people do. Alienate, brainwash, and keep secrets. In no way would I allow my child in that situation and I would be VERY VOCAL as to why he is not attending.

[TranquilMind]

 

 

And remember that youth pastors don't usually have the kind of experience needed to do their job well. You don't need to be young to connect with kids. You need to be wise to connect with kids. Dh and I went to a "parent's meeting" at a church we were considering. The youth pastor (and his wife) were fresh out of college.

 

They insisted, "Your kids will talk to us about things that they won't talk to you about. That's why we're here."

My dh asked directly, "Did you put that idea in their heads? Did you tell them, 'We know that you're not comfortable talking to your parents. You can talk to us about things that you don't want to talk to your parents about.'?"

They answered proudly, "Yes, that's what we tell them."

Dh responded, "That's the most ridiculous, divisive thing I've ever heard. Why would you intentionally try to drive a wedge between my kids and me? Do you really think you are better equipped to offer them advice and guidance than their mother and their father?"

 

 

 

 

Janice, you - and your husband - are brilliant.

[GSOchristie]

[quote

 

They insisted, "Your kids will talk to us about things that they won't talk to you about. That's why we're here."

My dh asked directly, "Did you put that idea in their heads? Did you tell them, 'We know that you're not comfortable talking to your parents. You can talk to us about things that you don't want to talk to your parents about.'?"

They answered proudly, "Yes, that's what we tell them."

Dh responded, "That's the most ridiculous, divisive thing I've ever heard. Why would you intentionally try to drive a wedge between my kids and me? Do you really think you are better equipped to offer them advice and guidance than their mother and their father?"

 

We left.

You just can't help the ignorant.

Don't be afraid to be wise. Speak up. Follow your gut. The youth pastor isn't going to be there to solve the problems he creates. You're going to have to clean up the mess.

 

Treat folly like folly. You have enough work to do without allowing someone to create work for you. Think of it this way: would you let a toddler eat pizza on your new couch just because the teen babysitter said it was a good idea? No! Rather than worry about the teen's feelings, you would pick up the toddler and put them in the kitchen. Then you would turn to the teen and say, "We don't eat pizza in the living room." End of discussion.

 

 

:iagree:

[TranquilMind]

The problem is, the pastor openly admitted that there had not been any parent meeting, that it had just been himself and the youth pastor. Basically, he admitted to lying without calling it what it was...and he stalled before he admitted it. I like the rest of this.

 

So then add (after parent meeting), "yet you subsequently admitted no such meeting had taken place, but rather that this was a unilateral decision on the part of the youth pastor."

 

I'd actually add a lot more, but most likely I'd just leave. I am not going to be forbidden anywhere from knowing what my kids are doing or being able to enter the premises.

[Ottakee]

We have been struggling with youth group activities as well.

 

First the girls went to a Bible study this summer and they started a facebook group. My daughter invited me to "join" but then when I tried the youth pastor's wife said NO, it was just for kids.....but I could check it via my own daughter's account (which of course I planned on anyway).

 

Just recently my dh has been attended the youth group with 3 boys that he has been mentoring for years. The boys said they wouldnt' move up from AWANA to youth group unless dh came too (one has severe speech issues and most people can't understand him but dh can). Dh was recently told by the youth pastor he was not welcome to come weekly (even though he just sat in the back and didn't teach/interfer, etc).

 

Dh spoke with a deacon about this and the deacon said parents were ALWAYS welcome to attend ANY meetings they wanted. Not sure yet where it is going.

 

I am thinking of just having our kids do more activities that are more family friendly and not as much with the youth. It is hard though as we have a small church (about 150 people) and in the youth group there are 5 unchurched kids attending because of our (and our kids) outreach and if we stop, they might stop coming. They are the only unchurched kids coming right now.

[Parrothead]

I just read the OP and I know I'm coming in late. But the whole situation as described in the OP just screams potential for abuse/grooming at me.

[BakersDozen]

Ladies - I'll have more time later to respond but want to thank all of you for what you've offered thus far. This is giving our family a lot to think about.

 

One of the issues is that we do not attend this church; kids from other churches are graciously invited to join Quiz/youth group and everything (including dinner) is paid for. My kids didn't have to purchase their books or t-shirts, gas is paid for when Quiz meets are out of town, etc. It's been a huge blessing especially to the larger families that find joining activities a challenge due to finances.

 

Because of this we feel strange making waves when we are the guests, so to speak. Perhaps that is the wrong way to feel?

 

Parents are allowed to be in the youth area but not younger siblings - I apologize for that confusion! If any youth leader/pastor told me I was not welcome to observe/listen in, I would leave in a heartbeat.

 

Hillfarm - Your letter is along the lines of one I've been drafting in my head all morning.

 

I have a lot to think about and discuss with my dh at this point. I love the insights and wisdom (as always) from you all.

Edited October 11, 2012 by LuvnMySvn

[MomatHWTK]

I don't think Quiz would be worth it to me.

[brehon]

Ladies - I'll have more time later to respond but want to thank all of you for what you've offered thus far. This is giving our family a lot to think about.

 

One of the issues is that we do not attend this church; kids from other churches are graciously invited to join Quiz/youth group and everything (including dinner) is paid for. My kids didn't have to purchase their books or t-shirts, gas is paid for when Quiz meets are out of town, etc. It's been a huge blessing especially to the larger families that find joining activities a challenge due to finances.

 

Because of this we feel strange making waves when we are the guests, so to speak. Perhaps that is the wrong way to feel?

 

Parents are allowed to be in the youth area but not younger siblings - I apologize for that confusion! If any youth leader/pastor told me I was not welcome to observe/listen in, I would leave in a heartbeat.

 

So, I reread your original post. My thought is that parents with younger children *are* effectively and literally locked out from observing or listening in where their teens are. Presumably, the younger kids aren't going to be left alone, right? :confused: Is this church providing some sort of care (that you trust) for the youngers?

 

Hillfarm - Your letter is along the lines of one I've been drafting in my head all morning.

 

I have a lot to think about and discuss with my dh at this point. I love the insights and wisdom (as always) from you all.

 

I'm not necessarily against letting teens/youth have their own group/space/time. I am against (a) locking doors, especially if no one is ensuring that an adult can open said doors quickly if needed and (b) priests/pastors lying regardless of your membership status. I still think there are too many inconsistencies and examples of poor decision making to feel comfortable dropping my kids off.

[sassenach]

Ladies - I'll have more time later to respond but want to thank all of you for what you've offered thus far. This is giving our family a lot to think about.

 

One of the issues is that we do not attend this church; kids from other churches are graciously invited to join Quiz/youth group and everything (including dinner) is paid for. My kids didn't have to purchase their books or t-shirts, gas is paid for when Quiz meets are out of town, etc. It's been a huge blessing especially to the larger families that find joining activities a challenge due to finances.

 

Because of this we feel strange making waves when we are the guests, so to speak. Perhaps that is the wrong way to feel?

 

Parents are allowed to be in the youth area but not younger siblings - I apologize for that confusion! If any youth leader/pastor told me I was not welcome to observe/listen in, I would leave in a heartbeat.

 

Hillfarm - Your letter is along the lines of one I've been drafting in my head all morning.

 

I have a lot to think about and discuss with my dh at this point. I love the insights and wisdom (as always) from you all.

 

Hmm, that's a much different situation than what everyone seemed to think you were saying. Frankly, I don't see the problem with the younger kids not being allowed in. Young kids can be distracting in ways that parents don't seem to register. Maybe there was just getting to be too many kids running around for the pastor to handle.

 

Clearly, the "parents being locked away from their kids" issue isn't really an issue.

 

The pastor still lied. That still bothers me. I have ZERO problem with the pastors making the decision without parent input. Zero, zip, zilch. Pastors can't consult the flock on every blessed decision. This isn't a decision to separate parents from their kids, it's a decision to limit the activity to the age group it's designed for. It sounds like the pastor chose to lie to avoid the confrontation. That's a huge, blaring weakness in a pastor. As your brother in Christ, you might pray about having a gentle confrontation about that incident.

 

So the big decision for you is are these pastors demonstrating the character qualities and wisdom that allow you to feel comfortable in putting your kids under their authority. I would not personally be comfortable with them, but not for the quiz night issue.

[Jerico]

When I get a job I only want to work with people my age. Life should be segmented into age groups by decades.

Geez, hope you got my sarcasm. We haven't attended a church with a youth group in a few years (even though our kids are young) because we don't feel like that's a good thing. Kids need to be around older people for many reasons. I'd be concerned. I'd also be concerned about why the youth group is playing video games like that... but that's IMO.

[hillfarm]

Ladies - I'll have more time later to respond but want to thank all of you for what you've offered thus far. This is giving our family a lot to think about.

 

One of the issues is that we do not attend this church; kids from other churches are graciously invited to join Quiz/youth group and everything (including dinner) is paid for. My kids didn't have to purchase their books or t-shirts, gas is paid for when Quiz meets are out of town, etc. It's been a huge blessing especially to the larger families that find joining activities a challenge due to finances.

 

Because of this we feel strange making waves when we are the guests, so to speak. Perhaps that is the wrong way to feel?

 

Parents are allowed to be in the youth area but not younger siblings - I apologize for that confusion! If any youth leader/pastor told me I was not welcome to observe/listen in, I would leave in a heartbeat.

 

Hillfarm - Your letter is along the lines of one I've been drafting in my head all morning.

 

I have a lot to think about and discuss with my dh at this point. I love the insights and wisdom (as always) from you all.

 

Sorry, I didn't understand until now that you are not members of the church. In this case, I would advise meeting with the pastor with at least one other church leader (not the youth group guy), voicing your concerns, and then leaving never to return.

 

I think that homeschooling parent is often considered synonymous with helicopter parent, and perhaps that might be causing some of their desire to separate the youth, regardless of whether it is actually an issue or merely the topic of some pop psychology article they read somewhere.

 

If you truly believe the pastor lied to you, that there was no chance that you misunderstood, then I would mention it in the meeting and then leave the church. God's standard for pastors is higher than for the rest of us, and He already made it clear that He doesn't want any of us to lie. A pastor who would take this route is very suspect IMO. What other Biblical directives is he willing to ignore, if it suits him or is easier? Once you have recognized him as a liar, could you ever trust him again?

 

I agree that asking for toddlers and much younger sibilings to be banned from the youth area is not an unreasonable request. I say this gently, but it appears to me that large families often become desensitized to just how distracting or limiting the younger ones can be in a situation. I think they are so used to dealing with it, they no longer notice it or consider it to be an issue.

 

The pastor lying, the youth guy bringing in the violent games, the locked doors, all add up to a situation to which I would not subject my family. If other families agree with you, then do your Bible Quiz elsewhere. But get out of this church before something really bad happens.

[6packofun]

I don't understand the logistics of the locked door thing. I have a hard time imagining a church keeping parents from having access. BUT, I do think it's fair to keep the little ones away from the older kids. What's the big deal about that? Our family loves to do things together, but we don't get upset when we sometimes have to do things separately AND our youth group plays games that wouldn't work for little ones anyhow. ??

 

Is a youth worker/pastor supposed to be responsible for more kids so that "they can play?" I'm not understanding all the details so I can't say whether or not it really is unfair. *shrug* In our church, they are very strict about people being with children who are child-care approved (background check, etc.) AND the ratio of adults to children younger than a certain age, so I can certainly see how that might come into play, particularly if a church was lax/casual about it before, sees a need to become more formal and is now putting it into place.

[SunnyDays]

I don't have a problem with keeping younger siblings out of the room... unfortunately, it can be distracting. I realize that does preclude some parents from staying if they're also caring for other children, but I think it's reasonable. And I'm not opposed to youth groups in general. (My son isn't old enough for one... check with me in a few years, LOL... but I had a good youth experience and have friends who did as well.) Now, our church has Confirmation groups where they break off in small groups to be "mentored and led" by a single adult... not sure I'll be comfortable with that... again, check back with me in a few years. :)

 

That said, I would have a huge problem with locked doors and being lied to. I would also be upset about the violent video games... whether a child is allowed to play them at home is irrelevant, it just isn't appropriate in that setting. It's not like they're playing Guitar Hero or a trivia game, KWIM??

 

So there definitely are some issues that would make me uncomfortable. If I couldn't address them or get some concessions, then we probably wouldn't return. It is setting up potentially bad situations... and some bells can't be unrung, you know??

[JenniferB]

Heavens to Betsy! That is all...

[BakersDozen]

BUT, I do think it's fair to keep the little ones away from the older kids. What's the big deal about that? Our family loves to do things together, but we don't get upset when we sometimes have to do things separately AND our youth group plays games that wouldn't work for little ones anyhow. ??

 

Is a youth worker/pastor supposed to be responsible for more kids so that "they can play?"

Just to clarify: The youth pastor is in no way responsible for the younger children who were hanging out in the youth room. The way things went before this guy came was parents arrived at 4:00, everyone hung out together, older kids went to Quiz at 4:30 which left the youth room completely empty so that's where the families with younger kids hung out. When Quiz was over the parents took the younger siblings to the other side of the building for their own Quiz while the youth had their time. It was this way for years until the new guy took over. He truly does not understand the dynamic of the youth/families he inherited. As far as I know not one single youth complained; this was his own doing based on what he believes youth should be (separated from family).

 

Younger siblings never participated in the youth activities yet they were never unwelcome to just be there, either. Things were respectful and just lovely all around. Not so any more. I don't have a problem with the youth having their own room/time yet I do not agree with the pastor that combining age groups "absolutely will not work" or that the youth need to "jell" (I got the spelling right that time!) by means of being isolated when before they "jelled" beautifully even with siblings around.

[love2read]

Big "No" in my book. All Catholics now dealing with children go through a fairly intensive training program and what you are describing has red flags all over it. Yes, even if it involves teens and no little kids. These things are not limited to just one denomination or youth organization and even if your youth director is fine, that he is doing any kind of isolation indicates a problem of some sort. I only read the first post, so perhaps this has already been addressed.

[Susan in KY]

Would.not.fly.

I would never allow my dc to be behind a locked door without me if I could help it, especially not with a youth minister who ran rough-shod over my wishes. Nope, nope, nope.

[BakersDozen]

Quick update: One mom called to talk to me which was such a relief because I didn't want to be 'that mom' who went around gathering support for her personal conviction. I then talked with another mom who had absolutely.no.clue as to the new policy. The word is out and the parents are going to discuss this then meet with the youth pastor/head pastor. The awesome thing is that these parents are the core of the Quiz/youth group! Between our families I'd say 75% of the youth group is formed and 100% of the Quiz group.

 

Since first meeting with the youth pastor regarding the video games (and being dismissed) I feel relief! I am not alone in this, I don't have to approach this by myself, and I will no longer be 'that mom' - the only one who makes waves.

 

Here's how one mom (who has been there much longer than I) described the situation: "This guy has no idea that the core of the Quiz/youth group is family; we are not separate, we support and encourage each other, and the youth group is anything but the typical youth group; coming in and "fixing" it isn't the way to go because it wasn't broken."

 

What really floored me was that of all these families, not one single mom knew what kind of video games were being played! They knew there were games and they knew they weren't exactly comfortable with it happening, but not one mom/dad took the time to find out what the games were! One mom said, "Well, it's not like they are playing Halo, right? RIGHT?" Um, yeah, that would be one of the games. :glare:

 

Please, please pray for all the parents involved as well as for the church leadership. It would be heartbreaking for the kids if the youth leader won't work with us and listen to our hearts.

[GWOB]

Quick update: One mom called to talk to me which was such a relief because I didn't want to be 'that mom' who went around gathering support for her personal conviction. I then talked with another mom who had absolutely.no.clue as to the new policy. The word is out and the parents are going to discuss this then meet with the youth pastor/head pastor. The awesome thing is that these parents are the core of the Quiz/youth group! Between our families I'd say 75% of the youth group is formed and 100% of the Quiz group.

 

Since first meeting with the youth pastor regarding the video games (and being dismissed) I feel relief! I am not alone in this, I don't have to approach this by myself, and I will no longer be 'that mom' - the only one who makes waves.

 

Here's how one mom (who has been there much longer than I) described the situation: "This guy has no idea that the core of the Quiz/youth group is family; we are not separate, we support and encourage each other, and the youth group is anything but the typical youth group; coming in and "fixing" it isn't the way to go because it wasn't broken."

 

What really floored me was that of all these families, not one single mom knew what kind of video games were being played! They knew there were games and they knew they weren't exactly comfortable with it happening, but not one mom/dad took the time to find out what the games were! One mom said, "Well, it's not like they are playing Halo, right? RIGHT?" Um, yeah, that would be one of the games. :glare:

 

Please, please pray for all the parents involved as well as for the church leadership. It would be heartbreaking for the kids if the youth leader won't work with us and listen to our hearts.

 

That sounds promising! But you know what? It's ok to be "that mom" sometimes. Sometimes other parents just won't speak up until "that mom" comes along. We have momma bear instincts for a reason;).

[teamturner]

The thing that bothers me the most about this situation is the belief by the senior pastor and youth pastor that "combining ages never works." I'm all for the youth having their time by themselves, but I also think the youth can and should also be a part of mixed ages gatherings and multigenerational activites . I also don't like the idea that the parents feel that they are not welcome to youth activities. I think parents should be involved in youth stuff.