Lance Armstrong -- WOW -- just wow

[MariannNOVA]

http://aol.sportingnews.com/sport/story/2012-08-23/lance-armstrong-ending-fight-vs-anti-doping-agency-could-lose-tour-de-france-tit?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D196446

[catz]

That is just unbelievable! :glare::ack2::crying:

[Joker]

I'm still a bit confused how a US agency can strip someone of titles they won in an international competition in another country.

 

I don't know what to think about if he actually did it. It seems they have a lot of people saying he did, but I don't get how an agency here can say he didn't win something that took place in a different country. I don't keep up with cycling or Tour de France so maybe I'm completely missing something.

[MariannNOVA]

I'm still a bit confused how a US agency can strip someone of titles they won in an international competition in another country.

 

I don't know what to think about if he actually did it. It seems they have a lot of people saying he did, but I don't get how an agency here can say he didn't win something that took place in a different country. I don't keep up with cycling or Tour de France so maybe I'm completely missing something.

 

i don't keep up with it....much. that being said, :iagree:. how does a US agency strip him of titles from an international competition? seems to be overstepping to me -- i don't know. the legal wheels in my brain say something to me about......if he's ineligible to compete according to a u.s. agency, does that make his performance in competition elsewhere ineligible for consideration? confusing.

[pdalley]

i don't keep up with it....much. that being said, :iagree:. how does a US agency strip him of titles from an international competition? seems to be overstepping to me -- i don't know. the legal wheels in my brain say something to me about......if he's ineligible to compete according to a u.s. agency, does that make his performance in competition elsewhere ineligible for consideration? confusing.

 

:iagree:

 

I read his statement and it sounded like he wasn't admitting to anything - he was just tired of banging his head against a brick wall - he'd given them everything they asked him and it wasn't enough and he was just tired of fighting it.

 

Meanwhile football and baseball players test positive and no wins or awards are taken away from them. :001_huh:

[KnitWit]

I wonder. My dh is a Tour de France fan and we've watched these accusations come over and over. It's true that he has supposedly been tested and cleared over and over. But then, one of his teammates did some interviews saying that he's guilty and telling stories about the whole team.

 

What a mess.

[Joker]

I have to admit I find it hard to believe he would pump his body full of drugs after surviving cancer. I'm pretty sure I read his cancer had like a 50% chance of survival.:001_huh: I can't imagine surviving that and then pumping myself full of steroids.

[itsheresomewhere]

:iagree:

 

I read his statement and it sounded like he wasn't admitting to anything - he was just tired of banging his head against a brick wall - he'd given them everything they asked him and it wasn't enough and he was just tired of fighting it.

 

Meanwhile football and baseball players test positive and no wins or awards are taken away from them. :001_huh:

 

:iagree:. I feel for him. He has taken so many drug test and passed. It is just a witch hunt.

[Kathryn]

I'm still a bit confused how a US agency can strip someone of titles they won in an international competition in another country.

 

I don't know what to think about if he actually did it. It seems they have a lot of people saying he did, but I don't get how an agency here can say he didn't win something that took place in a different country. I don't keep up with cycling or Tour de France so maybe I'm completely missing something.

 

:iagree: confuzzled.

[DianeW88]

Apparently they have stripped him of his titles and banned him from cycling. Holy cow.

[Canadianmumof5]

I don't get this? Why now?

:confused1:

[Elizabeth in MN]

if he's ineligible to compete according to a u.s. agency, does that make his performance in competition elsewhere ineligible for consideration? confusing.

 

Yes, he can't compete anywhere else or in any other sport.

[Seasider]

I don't get this? Why now?

:confused1:

 

 

Me, either.:confused:

 

Look, I don't like juicing athletes. I think it's unsportsmanlike. But how retroactive is the witch hunting going to go? A decade? Two? Three? Where does it end?

Edited August 24, 2012 by Seasider

[coffeefreak]

I'm sad for him. It's a lose lose situation. Spend thousands, perhaps millions AFTER he's already retired to keep his titles, and prove his innocence, or keep his money and have the USADA strip him of his titles. I don't blame him.:thumbdown:

[mykdsmomy]

He does a TON of charity work for childhood cancer too! He seems like a great guy.....so sad :(

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't know what to believe about the doping. But, it does seem crazy that they can strip him of his titles after he passed their drug tests. There should be a statute of limitations or something.

[fraidycat]

Poor guy. Witch hunt is right. The dude is retired. If he was going to fail the drug tests, he would have done so when they did them for each event. It would have been blasted worldwide.

 

Do they really think he wasn't double, triple, quadruple checked for Tour de France #s 3 through 7. Really? But because so and so on his team is jealous of him and SAID so, so we'll believe him over the actual tests?

[ErinE]

I'm still a bit confused how a US agency can strip someone of titles they won in an international competition in another country.

 

I don't know what to think about if he actually did it. It seems they have a lot of people saying he did, but I don't get how an agency here can say he didn't win something that took place in a different country. I don't keep up with cycling or Tour de France so maybe I'm completely missing something.

 

It sounds like they had former teammates lined up to testify against him, but from what I understand, at least two already admitted to doping so they may have been looking for leniency. Armstrong has tested clean each time he won, but after Tyler Hamilton's insistence he was clean, I tend to be a little skeptical of any athlete.

 

I still don't see how a US agency can strip someone of international titles.

[melissad2]

Poor guy. Witch hunt is right. The dude is retired. If he was going to fail the drug tests, he would have done so when they did them for each event. It would have been blasted worldwide.

 

Do they really think he wasn't double, triple, quadruple checked for Tour de France #s 3 through 7. Really? But because so and so on his team is jealous of him and SAID so, so we'll believe him over the actual tests?

 

:iagree:

What a waste of time and money. They need to find something better to do.

[Pawz4me]

Poor guy. Witch hunt is right. The dude is retired. If he was going to fail the drug tests, he would have done so when they did them for each event. It would have been blasted worldwide.

 

Do they really think he wasn't double, triple, quadruple checked for Tour de France #s 3 through 7. Really? But because so and so on his team is jealous of him and SAID so, so we'll believe him over the actual tests?

 

:iagree:

 

I'm the last person on earth likely to put athletes on a pedestal of any sort, but in light of all the many, many drug tests he passed . . . this seems like nothing but a witch hunt fueled by jealousy to me.

[nono]

:confused:

 

Why don't they do like the Olympics? Keep samples, and only upon conclusive evidence ever found (via newer technologies) does one get stripped of wins.

 

While I do suspect he could have been doing something to goose his performance, this is not anywhere near proper. And, the article sure makes some dubious leaps to conclusions (or the people quoted...it's early...coffee's not working). But I did notice the dubious leaps. ;)

[Parrothead]

Wow! What a waste of time and money. Our gov't at work here. :001_huh::glare:

[Lolly]

Witch hunt.

[Impish]

Ok, I don't get it.

 

"Yeah, you passed all the tests, we have no actual PROOF of any wrong doing, but dude over here, who has been proven to be a user says you are too, so we're going w/him over all the tests you've passed."

 

:001_huh:

[Trish]

It sounds like they had former teammates lined up to testify against him, but from what I understand, at least two already admitted to doping so they may have been looking for leniency. Armstrong has tested clean each time he won, but after Tyler Hamilton's insistence he was clean, I tend to be a little skeptical of any athlete.

 

I still don't see how a US agency can strip someone of international titles.

 

Was he cycling FOR the United States? i.e. how can they "prevent" him from competing in cycling or anything else if they have no jurisdiction over him?

 

At this point I'm figuring they're all juiced, so it's our juiced guys competing against their juiced guys, and I'm starting not to care who wins. :001_huh:

[LisaKinVA]

:iagree:

 

I'm the last person on earth likely to put athletes on a pedestal of any sort, but in light of all the many, many drug tests he passed . . . this seems like nothing but a witch hunt fueled by jealousy to me.

 

:iagree: I am disappointed he stopped fighting, but I get it. He's been investigated repeatedly, accused since he won the first time, had investigations against him closed, no proof of any wrongdoing, but the continued drip-drip-drip gets tiring (and expensive). There was no end in sight. At some point, you feel like throwing up your hands and saying enough is enough. If anyone had grounds to investigate it would be the UCI, and they have supported him all along. It really sounds like a witch hunt to me...and the person taking the lead has an ego to feed.

Edited August 24, 2012 by LisaK in VA

[ktgrok]

I think it is crazy they are still going after him. I don't even care anymore. But, as for the tests...he is accused of blood doping, which is different than steroids and such. It can mean just giving yourself a blood transfusion to get extra red blood cells, or taking a normally occuring chemical produced by the kidneys to increase red blood cell production. Either way there is no actual drug to look for, just abnormally high red blood cell counts. Now, the problem is, people that compete at that level can have naturally high red blood cell counts from the stress of the workouts. That is why they can't "prove it" and he can disprove it.

 

Personally, I tend to think that he just is naturally like that, because not only does he win races (when he would be doping supposedly, but he works just as hard in the offseason. His offseason workouts are legendary, and grueling, and more than anyone else does, and he would NOT be doping then, so I tend to believe his is just that bad a**.

 

either way though, a decade later, who the heck cares? Move on and put that money and energy into testing people that are actually still competing.

[DusksAngel]

It really does seem like a witch hunt. They seem determined to find him guilty and just won't stop til they do. And the only message they've sent is "If we want to find you guilty, we'll just keep trying til we do".

[Kathryn]

I think it is crazy they are still going after him. I don't even care anymore. But, as for the tests...he is accused of blood doping, which is different than steroids and such. It can mean just giving yourself a blood transfusion to get extra red blood cells, or taking a normally occuring chemical produced by the kidneys to increase red blood cell production. Either way there is no actual drug to look for, just abnormally high red blood cell counts. Now, the problem is, people that compete at that level can have naturally high red blood cell counts from the stress of the workouts. That is why they can't "prove it" and he can disprove it.

 

Personally, I tend to think that he just is naturally like that, because not only does he win races (when he would be doping supposedly, but he works just as hard in the offseason. His offseason workouts are legendary, and grueling, and more than anyone else does, and he would NOT be doping then, so I tend to believe his is just that bad a**.

 

either way though, a decade later, who the heck cares? Move on and put that money and energy into testing people that are actually still competing.

 

:iagree:

[ErinE]

Was he cycling FOR the United States? i.e. how can they "prevent" him from competing in cycling or anything else if they have no jurisdiction over him?

 

At this point I'm figuring they're all juiced, so it's our juiced guys competing against their juiced guys, and I'm starting not to care who wins. :001_huh:

 

He was only cycling for the US in the Olympics. For the Tour de France, he was cycling for a corporate sponsor. Maybe the US agency is the governing body that qualifies him for competition so now they're arguing he was never qualified? Don't know. I think it's pretty capricious to disqualify the guy based on testimony without the supporting blood tests.

[Word Nerd]

I know that other cyclists have claimed that doping (including blood doping, as mentioned previously, which is harder to ) is rampant in cycling. I lean toward believing Armstrong...but I remember feeling strongly that Marion Jones was being wrongly accused, and she later admitted doping. It does seem like a witch hunt either way, and it's clear that USADA wants to make an example of him.

[Jackie in NE]

It sounds like they had former teammates lined up to testify against him, but from what I understand, at least two already admitted to doping so they may have been looking for leniency. Armstrong has tested clean each time he won, but after Tyler Hamilton's insistence he was clean, I tend to be a little skeptical of any athlete.

 

I still don't see how a US agency can strip someone of international titles.

 

:iagree: And, I don't think the USADA has "proven" anything! They haven't. All they have is clean drug tests, and accusations from former teammates/competitors. According to Armstrong's official statement, there IS a statute of limitations, which has already passed. That, according to him, is one of the reasons he refuses to fight anymore..... It looks to him, that in light of the USADA's inability to prove anything, they will simply continue to accuse, and he will have to continue to spend millions to defend himself, when he would rather use that money for the work his charities are doing. He passed those drug tests years ago. My understanding is that the testing agencies keep the samples, so that they can continue to test them as they develop more effective tests. But Armstrong's samples have NEVER tested positive. I think he made the right decision. He's SO over it.

[Dobela]

http://lancearmstrong.com/news-events/lance-armstongs-statement-of-august-23-2012 is Armstrong's official statement. I also think his choice is the right one. Sometimes you just need to move on and focus on different parts of your life. That is what he is doing.

[Kathryn]

http://lancearmstrong.com/news-events/lance-armstongs-statement-of-august-23-2012 is Armstrong's official statement. I also think his choice is the right one. Sometimes you just need to move on and focus on different parts of your life. That is what he is doing.

 

Thanks for the link!

[angela in ohio]

I really disliked him. I also think he's guilty, but some people have figured out the way to go is to never admit anything, no matter what. To strip him of the titles--I think they must feel they have something substantial on him, and he knows it. This is his way to bow out while people still ooh and ah over him . I also think too many athletes dope themselves. If they punished consistently, then perhaps these nitwits would decide it's not worth it. Money rules--so make them pay dearly. I think the pity party for him is ridiculous, but he's probably getting some thrill from all this publicity.

 

I agree. And I think what a person does in their personal life speaks to their character, too.

[Dobela]

http://lancearmstrong.com/news-events because I am too lazy to hyper link... This has a series of posts about what has been happening. I find this particularly telling:

These are the very same charges and the same witnesses that the Justice Department chose not to pursue after a two-year investigation. ... Although USADA alleges a wide-ranging conspiracy extended over more than 16 years, I am the only athlete it has chosen to charge. ...I have never doped, and, ..., passed more than 500 drug tests and never failed one.

[FaithManor]

I agree. And I think what a person does in their personal life speaks to their character, too.

 

 

:iagree: I'd also like to say that I think it's a bit ludicrous to take so seriously the accusations of team members that admitted to doping themselves. It smacks of A. the big green eyed monster of jealousy and B. trying to throw attention from themselves.

 

Faith

[Dobela]

:iagree: I'd also like to say that I think it's a bit ludicrous to take so seriously the accusations of team members that admitted to doping themselves. It smacks of A. the big green eyed monster of jealousy and B. trying to throw attention from themselves.

 

Faith

If they admitted it, then why are they not being charged as well?

 

This is a long letter written to the USADA by Armstrong's attorneys. Very interesting read.

[LG Gone Wild]

http://lancearmstrong.com/news-events/lance-armstongs-statement-of-august-23-2012 is Armstrong's official statement. I also think his choice is the right one. Sometimes you just need to move on and focus on different parts of your life. That is what he is doing.

 

I agree.

[6packofun]

I'm actually not a fan of his, but I still think it's ridiculous. I don't understand how, in the complete lack of actual evidence, any organization has the authority to do what they're doing!

 

(Yes, it's nice that he helps kids with cancer, but wasn't that prompted by his own cancer? That's usually when people start to get generous. lol Doesn't take away his good deeds, but I'm impressed with people who do good for the sake of doing good without any regard for their own situation. I recall he also had a wife take care of him *through* his cancer and then...divorced her when he was better. Don't know all the details, don't care, but he's not a role model for my kids by any means. When I first heard the news I thought that he was admitting to doping and wasn't surprised. Now that I know the details, I'm actually defending him! lol)

[Joker]

I recall he also had a wife take care of him *through* his cancer and then...divorced her when he was better. Don't know all the details, don't care, but he's not a role model for my kids by any means. When I first heard the news I thought that he was admitting to doping and wasn't surprised. Now that I know the details, I'm actually defending him! lol)

 

I don't think the bolded is true. I just did a quick search and most things read that he was diagnosed with cancer in 1996, but didn't meet his wife until 1997 (married in 1998).

[Spy Car]

Lance Armstrong was an incredible athlete. But it is pretty clear he juiced.

 

He and his team-mates figured out how to beat the drug tests. They were not the only athletes who were able to do so.

 

Others have admitted their doping, and have given testimony that Lance Armstrong doped as well. Former team-mates are lined up to give testimony that contradicts his assertions.

 

I take no joy in seeing Lance Armstrong being stripped of his titles. He seems like a very cool dude. The story of his cancer survival is inspiring, and the work he has done with Livestrong is admirable. But....

 

Bill

Edited August 24, 2012 by Spy Car

[Lovthesurf]

:iagree:

 

I read his statement and it sounded like he wasn't admitting to anything - he was just tired of banging his head against a brick wall - he'd given them everything they asked him and it wasn't enough and he was just tired of fighting it.

 

Meanwhile football and baseball players test positive and no wins or awards are taken away from them. :001_huh:

 

:iagree::iagree:

[PiCO]

I have to admit I find it hard to believe he would pump his body full of drugs after surviving cancer. I'm pretty sure I read his cancer had like a 50% chance of survival.:001_huh: I can't imagine surviving that and then pumping myself full of steroids.

 

Not to mention that steroids are often part of chemotherapy regimens.

 

I think it's a witch hunt. Lance's foundation does so much good, just leave him alone.

 

I have a friend who was a high level cyclist. She was totally clean, but everyone she beat liked to say she was doping.

[ereks mom]

:iagree:

 

I read his statement and it sounded like he wasn't admitting to anything - he was just tired of banging his head against a brick wall - he'd given them everything they asked him and it wasn't enough and he was just tired of fighting it.

 

Meanwhile football and baseball players test positive and no wins or awards are taken away from them. :001_huh:

 

:iagree:

[PiCO]

Yes, it's nice that he helps kids with cancer, but wasn't that prompted by his own cancer? That's usually when people start to get generous. lol Doesn't take away his good deeds, but I'm impressed with people who do good for the sake of doing good without any regard for their own situation.

 

I think this is a bit offensive. Helping kids with cancer is not helping himself in any way, shape, or form. Maybe his life experiences brought to his attention a group of people who need help and support. Maybe he thinks he can help more than the average joe because he's been there, done that.

 

Two people close to me died of cancer relatively young. I do make myself available to talk to people who are caregivers for someone who is dying. It's very difficult for me to do, but I know how much it helped me to have someone to talk to who had traveled my path before me. Does that make me selfish? Please.

[cin]

From the letter his attorney sent to the USADA:

 

Although alleging a long-running and wide-ranging conspiracy involving four teams, USADA charged only one rider: Mr. Armstrong. USADA claims ten cyclists as well as team employees, and and blood collections from r. Armstrong in 2009 and 2010, will support the charges. USADA, however, failed to name any of the witnesses upon which it professes to rely or provide any evidence supporting it's apparent interpretation of the blood values...

 

Consistent with Mr. Armstrong's rights under Section 11 of the USADA Protocol, we requested from SADA the evidence that should have been included in USADA's submission to the Review Board...In addition, Mr. Armstrong asked for USADA to identify any lies that it believes Mr. Armstrong told to a USADA or CAS panel or other such evidence that would be necessary to justify USADA's otherwise completely unjustified attempt to allege conduct....

 

General Counsel Bock's response letter did little more than personally attack Mr. Armstrong...boasting that the USADA had an overwhelming case...'there was no point in USADA meeting with Mr. Armstrong because he continues to insist that he has never doped,' contending that Mr. Armstrong's request for witness identities is a transparent attempt to further bully and intimidate them.

 

So, they are making accusations, claiiming to have evidence and not allowing him or his counsel to see that evidence in order to defend himself.

 

Even if he is guilty, actions like the above actually are helping to SUPPORT Armstrong.

[ktgrok]

Lance Armstrong was an incredible athlete. But it is pretty clear he juiced.

 

He and his team-mates figured out how to beat the drug tests. They were not the only athletes who were able to do so.

 

Others have admitted their steroid use, and have given testimony that Lance Armstrong used steroids as well. Former team-mates are lined up to give testimony that contradicts his assertions.

 

I take no joy in seeing Lance Armstrong being stripped of his titles. He seems like a very cool dude. The story of his cancer survival is inspiring, and the work he has done with Livestrong is admirable. But....

 

Bill

 

I thought he was accused of using EPO, and blood doping? Hadn't heard steroids.

[MAIMOM]

I wonder why in a country that claims to believe "Innocent until proven Guilty" there is so much "he must be guilty" being spouted.

 

I like the fact that my country was founded on the principle that people are innocent until proven guilty. I lived in a country as a teen where the attitude was "you must be guilty or this would not be happening/ being said about you". My family experienced the consequences of that thinking. It was a terrible way to live. I pray our country does not adopt that attitude. It seems they are already there though if this kind of thing can be allowed to happen no matter the evidence. The burden of proof is on the accused ???? I wonder what our founding fathers would say about that.

[melmichigan]

I don't know what to believe about the doping. But, it does seem crazy that they can strip him of his titles after he passed their drug tests. There should be a statute of limitations or something.

 

:iagree: Twelve years later and they are still going rounds over this. If there was proof after his first race then this should have stopped then. If they didn't have enough evidence at the time that should be the end of it. What does this say about all the testing they did at the time and over the subsequent years?