Creepy or not creepy? Aka-- my son is furious with me

[Supertechmom]

My thoughts about going to the police is simply to have a discussion. Find out if anything "crime wise" had been done. Get a feel for what is legal and not legal and would constitute a crime. I know more than a few church people who would not think a youth volunteer taking a group off without parental permission any reason to get their panties in a wad and would Certainly give their blessing to such an act. Actually being able to say you could charge them with crimes x, y, and z and that doing a or b makes you look like you are trying to do g and f helps churches understand that legally this could be a big ole mess. Then base any further action on the pastor's reaction and handling of the situation . Just know where you stand so you can know which direction to go.

[KatA]

I ask my SIL for permission to take my 16 year old niece somewhere. Definitely some serious lack of judgment at the least.

[Whereneverever]

One could say that they already dropped the ball when no one noticed that this guy was taking 11-13 year-old boys off the premises, without parental consent.

 

I think the OP needs to know whether or not this man is a known predator. Getting him removed from his position at the camp is a nice way to get him out of the immediate picture, but if he is as creepy as he sounds, he'll just move on to the next place and repeat his actions. I would want to know if he has a history, and I'd want to know about it before I spoke with the pastor.

 

The issue with wanting to handle it in the church is church workers and NOT trained investigators. They also have a relationship with the person in question and that makes it easier to dismiss things. If he is just released from the position at this church and nothing outside the church is involved, how will he not just get another position somewhere else, with no one knowing the history?

 

It's not just the potential for an inappropriate relationship, it's that he took kids without parental permission to a place the parents did not know they were.

[jujsky]

My thoughts about going to the police is simply to have a discussion. Find out if anything "crime wise" had been done. Get a feel for what is legal and not legal and would constitute a crime. I know more than a few church people who would not think a youth volunteer taking a group off without parental permission any reason to get their panties in a wad and would Certainly give their blessing to such an act. Actually being able to say you could charge them with crimes x, y, and z and that doing a or b makes you look like you are trying to do g and f helps churches understand that legally this could be a big ole mess. Then base any further action on the pastor's reaction and handling of the situation . Just know where you stand so you can know which direction to go.

 

:iagree:

[Abigail4476]

I would love to know who else knew that he took the boys to see his ranch and who, if anyone, gave him permission to do so. That person has serious issues with good judgment as well.

[Katy]

It certainly wouldn't hurt to call the police and ask if there is someone who works with child abuse crimes that you could speak to.

 

I was once nearly kidnapped when I was a kid. It happened that a police officer drove by and I waved at him. The creepy guy left. When I told my mom what had happened we called the police. They said it was better to be safe than sorry and thanked us for calling.

 

The following week someone with the same car and same description tried to abduct two girls from an area middle school. They got away too, but after that I've always wanted to err on the side of caution.

 

The positive aspect of a police report is that it establishes a pattern of behavior. That way if this guy does something else that's questionable in the future there is always this report out there backing it up.

 

If at some point one boy does come forward, having previously established police reports for clearly bad behavior can make the difference in deciding if he should be prosecuted or not.

 

I'm a mandatory reporter so if I had more information I'd call the police FOR you.

[amey311]

I've skimmed thru the thread, but have you looked for this guy on your state registered offender database? No one wants to have to find that out, but that's something that could easily be done from home.

[laundrycrisis]

I also wouldn't contact him personally before you contact the pastor. The reprimand and the inquiry should come from the pastor. If the pastor doesn't handle it, then take matters into your own hands.

 

Unless the OP has reason to believe her pastor will not handle this, I think he should get the first heads up. My pastor would handle this quickly and aggressively, and I would have no need to take a matter to the police first.

 

 

No !!!

 

It is beyond ridiculous for anyone to suggest "let the church handle it". That's just as lame as "let the University handle it...." we know how that turned out. Individuals are each responsible to operate within civil law, and to report violations or suspicions to the civil authorities. The chain of command within a church or any other organization has no bearing at all if parents are concerned that a civil law has been broken or that a situation is legally suspicious or that children may be at risk.

 

Parents have the final authority regarding their own kids. And it is never appropriate for any religious organization to attempt to supersede that, including telling parents how to raise or discipline their children. A situation like this should never ever be handed over to any sort of church leadership to handle. If someone takes children inappropriately, without permission or does anything else inappropriate or suspicious, the parents should handle it themselves with civil law officers and inform the church leadership after the fact.

 

Go to the police. Have them check to see if this man has had complaints against him, including in other states. They can find out where he lived and worked before and dig deeper than what you can do on the internet. They should also contact the families of the other boys. They can determine if in your state, taking them to a different property in a private vehicle without any sort of permission was illegal. They can help decide what the next steps are. The church should not be involved in that in any way. Please do not worry about social niceties here. Abusers get a lot of mileage out of parents wanting to trust them, not jump to conclusions, make accusations, or make waves. Trust your instincts. Alarm bells go off for a reason. Let law enforcement in on this.

 

If your church does not already have one, they need a policy in place that includes background checks and rules about contact with children. There should always be at least two adults. Always. And where they can be and what they can do with kids should be strictly defined.

Edited August 15, 2012 by laundrycrisis

[Jpoy85]

I've skimmed thru the thread, but have you looked for this guy on your state registered offender database? No one wants to have to find that out, but that's something that could easily be done from home.

 

its free to do this and easy :)

[Susan in TN]

LOL-- My husband and I are both leadership in cub scouts AND boy scouts. We DO the training every year (even though it's required every 2!) My son is a boy scout! he KNOWS this-- he just is still an invincible 12 year old. :(

 

I made hubby read this thread, so he knows I'm not being a paranoid momma! :lol: Thanks so much for confirming what i already suspected!

 

I have been accused by friends and family of being a helicopter parent/overprotective (mainly because I homeschool). So to get validation from ya'll is soooo good to hear!

 

Yes - maybe, (just maybe) the guy is totally clueless. Never been through Cub/Boy Scouts/training. But at the VERY LEAST this must be addressed in your church - any person working with kids needs to have some basic guidelines given as to what is appropriate/allowed and what is not. For the protection of the children/families, as well as the church.

[Quiver0f10]

I would speak to pastor, remove kid from class probably no matter what pastor says (and no more mission trips with people who don't watch kids better than this), and talk long and hard with kid about why this all is a big fat No.

 

This could not be more creepy. You are entirely right to be utterly freaked out.

 

 

:iagree: I would be talking to my pastor ASAP.

[Element]

No !!!

 

It is beyond ridiculous for anyone to suggest "let the church handle it". That's just as lame as "let the University handle it...." we know how that turned out. Individuals are each responsible to operate within civil law, and to report violations or suspicions to the civil authorities. The chain of command within a church or any other organization has no bearing at all if parents are concerned that a civil law has been broken or that a situation is legally suspicious or that children may be at risk.

 

Parents have the final authority regarding their own kids. And it is never appropriate for any religious organization to attempt to supersede that, including telling parents how to raise or discipline their children. A situation like this should never ever be handed over to any sort of church leadership to handle. If someone takes children inappropriately, without permission or does anything else inappropriate or suspicious, the parents should handle it themselves with civil law officers and inform the church leadership after the fact.

 

Go to the police. Have them check to see if this man has had complaints against him, including in other states. They can find out where he lived and worked before and dig deeper than what you can do on the internet. They should also contact the families of the other boys. They can determine if in your state, taking them to a different property in a private vehicle without any sort of permission was illegal. They can help decide what the next steps are. The church should not be involved in that in any way. Please do not worry about social niceties here. Abusers get a lot of mileage out of parents wanting to trust them, not jump to conclusions, make accusations, or make waves. Trust your instincts. Alarm bells go off for a reason.

 

If your church does not already have one, they need a policy in place that includes background checks and rules about contact with children. There should always be at least two adults. Always. And where they can be and what they can do with kids should be strictly defined.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with all of this. Well said.

[crazyforlatin]

Even if he's not grooming, his lack of any judgment is bothersome, at the very least. Where is his common sense in this day and age? He needs to be taken aside and re-educated.

 

Even 20 years ago, my mom was already on the alert when my brother, age 14, had to take evening classes with the priest in his office in preparation for his baptism. She sat outside, listening for anything. She felt awful about it, but we thought it was best to be safe. A mother has to protect her child.

[Tammyla]

I'm glad you dh is going. I think he needs to have an idea of what he wants and expects to happen. The pastor needs to take appropriate action and anything less would be unacceptable.

 

Children are at risk, and must be protected; some in the group may have already been harmed.

 

 

:grouphug:Big hug and prayers.

 

Hubby is taking off work today so he can meet with the head pastor at 2.

(if you knew my hubby, he NEVER. NEVER. takes off work!)

 

Thanks for the input.

I am very thankful for ya'll!

[Abigail4476]

No !!!

 

It is beyond ridiculous for anyone to suggest "let the church handle it". That's just as lame as "let the University handle it...." we know how that turned out. Individuals are each responsible to operate within civil law, and to report violations or suspicions to the civil authorities. The chain of command within a church or any other organization has no bearing at all if parents are concerned that a civil law has been broken or that a situation is legally suspicious or that children may be at risk.

 

I would be on the same page IF an actual crime were being discussed. That's not quite the same as suspicion of a crime or suspicion of motive to commit a crime. Since the OP's son hasn't complained of any kind of inappropriate or sexual contact with the man in question, I believe it's imprudent to "go there." Premature, at least.

 

Further, unethical and criminal behavior aren't exactly the same thing, and waiting until all the facts are in isn't about "social niceties"--it's about protecting yourself from libel or slander charges.

 

I don't view letting the church handle this matter as any different than a company's human resources department handling a sexual harassment complaint against another employee. The first step for an employee is to go to HR; not the police. They CAN go to the police, but if HR investigates the complaint satisfactorily and takes appropriate action, there may be no need.

 

I realize that Mommy imaginations can take us many places, but when dealing with legal issues, only the cold, hard facts matter. Some of the posts on this thread sound like it is assumed that sexual misconduct has already occurred. We don't know that, and that wasn't the complaint by the OP. From a parenting standpoint, we should trust our instincts. I wouldn't hesitate to keep my child from attending an event or a church if I distrusted someone in leadership. However, that doesn't mean it's something I would take to the police. What would I tell the police? The person gives me the creeps? :001_huh: They'll tell you to come back when you have an actual criminal complaint.

[gingersmom]

The ONLY way I'd speak to a pastor was to tell him he may have a pervert in his flock, and that while you are checking him out the pastor may want to do the same. Then I'd tell him how dangerous it was, and how damaging to his congregation, that an adult would take underage children off alone. There's no way in hell I'd leave it up to a church to solve the problem. IMO, that's putting the church before the children.

 

:iagree:

 

I find the whole thing horrifying and there is not a chance in hell my child would ever be attending activities at that church without me standing right next to them.

 

I would have been at the police station discussing the whole situation with them by now. The church can do whatever else they want to do or not do.

[Juniper]

I would be on the same page IF an actual crime were being discussed. That's not quite the same as suspicion of a crime or suspicion of motive to commit a crime. Since the OP's son hasn't complained of any kind of inappropriate or sexual contact with the man in question, I believe it's imprudent to "go there." Premature, at least.

 

Further, unethical and criminal behavior aren't exactly the same thing, and waiting until all the facts are in isn't about "social niceties"--it's about protecting yourself from libel or slander charges.

 

I don't view letting the church handle this matter as any different than a company's human resources department handling a sexual harassment complaint against another employee. The first step for an employee is to go to HR; not the police. They CAN go to the police, but if HR investigates the complaint satisfactorily and takes appropriate action, there may be no need.

 

I realize that Mommy imaginations can take us many places, but when dealing with legal issues, only the cold, hard facts matter. Some of the posts on this thread sound like it is assumed that sexual misconduct has already occurred. We don't know that, and that wasn't the complaint by the OP. From a parenting standpoint, we should trust our instincts. I wouldn't hesitate to keep my child from attending an event or a church if I distrusted someone in leadership. However, that doesn't mean it's something I would take to the police. What would I tell the police? The person gives me the creeps? :001_huh: They'll tell you to come back when you have an actual criminal complaint.

:iagree: and I have been through the ringer on this IRL. I would inform the man to never contact my child again. Then if he did I would call the police and start a paper trail. I would also make sure the Pastor was made aware (create a paper trail with a follow up email to your meeting today) and I would make sure the other parents are made aware of the contact.

 

Those are the steps I would take in this situation.

[Bluegoat]

I would be on the same page IF an actual crime were being discussed. That's not quite the same as suspicion of a crime or suspicion of motive to commit a crime. Since the OP's son hasn't complained of any kind of inappropriate or sexual contact with the man in question, I believe it's imprudent to "go there." Premature, at least.

 

Further, unethical and criminal behavior aren't exactly the same thing, and waiting until all the facts are in isn't about "social niceties"--it's about protecting yourself from libel or slander charges.

 

I don't view letting the church handle this matter as any different than a company's human resources department handling a sexual harassment complaint against another employee. The first step for an employee is to go to HR; not the police. They CAN go to the police, but if HR investigates the complaint satisfactorily and takes appropriate action, there may be no need.

 

I realize that Mommy imaginations can take us many places, but when dealing with legal issues, only the cold, hard facts matter. Some of the posts on this thread sound like it is assumed that sexual misconduct has already occurred. We don't know that, and that wasn't the complaint by the OP. From a parenting standpoint, we should trust our instincts. I wouldn't hesitate to keep my child from attending an event or a church if I distrusted someone in leadership. However, that doesn't mean it's something I would take to the police. What would I tell the police? The person gives me the creeps? :001_huh: They'll tell you to come back when you have an actual criminal complaint.

 

I don't think I would go to the police before talking to the pastor either. There may be more information the OP isn't aware of here. It's even possible, if unlikely, that her son was not telling the whole story. Going to the police about this has a pretty high potential of ruining the life of the volunteer. It may be that is appropriate, but I wouldn't do it without a little more information.

[Quad Shot Academy]

I haven't read the whole thread, so this might have been said, but I would demand that an inquiry into the mission trip be done. How did he manage to sneak that many kids away without any other adults noticing, or worse, did they know and not say anything? Any adult on that trip that knew what happened and said nothing, should never be allowed to be in charge of children again. I am sure the church will take action and remove this man from Children's Ministry, but more than that needs to happen, to make sure this never happens again. The other parents of the children need to be contacted and children that might have been harmed by him need to know they will be believed if they talk. Silence is not best in these types of situations. I am praying that he was caught before he hurt any of the kids at your church. :grouphug:

[Katy]

Further, unethical and criminal behavior aren't exactly the same thing, and waiting until all the facts are in isn't about "social niceties"--it's about protecting yourself from libel or slander charges....

 

...What would I tell the police? The person gives me the creeps? :001_huh: They'll tell you to come back when you have an actual criminal complaint.

 

 

First of all, libel or slander do not apply. Accusing a named person of doing something you know to be false, either on a blog or in a newspaper or in person - deliberately lying and misleading about someone's character is libel or slander.

 

Calling the police for suspected grooming behavior and ACTUALLY taking a child somewhere without the parent's permission (while across state lines!!!) is neither libel nor slander. Luring the child back there again without the parent's permission is not libel nor slander. Finding out what the local laws are and if they have been violated is not libel nor slander.

 

Filing a police report about what actually happened is not libel nor slander.

[Kathryn]

I would love to know who else knew that he took the boys to see his ranch and who, if anyone, gave him permission to do so. That person has serious issues with good judgment as well.

 

This is why I'm more on contacting the police to discuss things first. There are two options that I see for what happened already.

 

1. There are not procedures in place already, which allowed this man to be alone with children. In this case, it shows a serious lack on the part of leadership.

 

Or

 

2. Someone allowed this to happen, in which case procedures are being ignored, a serious breach of trust.

 

Either way, the church is already responsible for what happened before. I'd hesitate to be entirely trusting that they'd understand the seriousness of what is happening with this man without having an authority's opinion.

[laundrycrisis]

For police to look into someone's background for past complaints, and to determine if what has already been done that is known about (taking kids off the property, to his private property, in a private vehicle, without permission) is a crime or not, is not the same as reporting a crime. Depending on what the police find, taking these steps may prevent abuse from happening. To me, it would be about way more than just my own kid....it would be about protecting all potential victims. It sounds very much like this man has a pretty ideal setup for grooming victims and a place to be alone with them, and he has taken the first steps, and in texting young boys, doing an end-run around their parents to build his relationships, he was working his plan. There is no shame or guilt here in going straight to the police. His behavior may not be anything they can prosecute so far, but they may be able to stop him in his tracks and keep tabs on him going forward. It's also possible that there is legal action against him in another locale, and he is violating a legal order by being in his current job. It needs to be checked out.

 

Just pulling your own kid out and giving a lecture to people in charge at the church could result in no change at all going forward.

Edited August 15, 2012 by laundrycrisis

[Harriet Vane]

I would be on the same page IF an actual crime were being discussed. That's not quite the same as suspicion of a crime or suspicion of motive to commit a crime. Since the OP's son hasn't complained of any kind of inappropriate or sexual contact with the man in question, I believe it's imprudent to "go there." Premature, at least.

 

Further, unethical and criminal behavior aren't exactly the same thing, and waiting until all the facts are in isn't about "social niceties"--it's about protecting yourself from libel or slander charges.

 

I don't view letting the church handle this matter as any different than a company's human resources department handling a sexual harassment complaint against another employee. The first step for an employee is to go to HR; not the police. They CAN go to the police, but if HR investigates the complaint satisfactorily and takes appropriate action, there may be no need.

 

I realize that Mommy imaginations can take us many places, but when dealing with legal issues, only the cold, hard facts matter. Some of the posts on this thread sound like it is assumed that sexual misconduct has already occurred. We don't know that, and that wasn't the complaint by the OP. From a parenting standpoint, we should trust our instincts. I wouldn't hesitate to keep my child from attending an event or a church if I distrusted someone in leadership. However, that doesn't mean it's something I would take to the police. What would I tell the police? The person gives me the creeps? :001_huh: They'll tell you to come back when you have an actual criminal complaint.

 

:iagree:

 

The guy's actions are wildly inappropriate.

 

However, there is as of yet nothing to report. So far all that is known is that he texts kids on things that are non-sexual in nature, that he drove a group to his house to look around and apparently didn't say or do anything coerced or sexual there, and is now inviting a group of kids to an event without first telling their parents. None of these things are crimes.

 

The behavior is troubling enough to warrant a little investigation though. The other parents should check with their sons about texts and various things.

 

It is possible that the guy is clueless. I would still not allow my kids in relationship with him, but thus far there is no evidence of a crime that can be reported.

[Catwoman]

First of all, libel or slander do not apply. Accusing a named person of doing something you know to be false, either on a blog or in a newspaper or in person - deliberately lying and misleading about someone's character is libel or slander.

 

Calling the police for suspected grooming behavior and ACTUALLY taking a child somewhere without the parent's permission (while across state lines!!!) is neither libel nor slander. Luring the child back there again without the parent's permission is not libel nor slander. Finding out what the local laws are and if they have been violated is not libel nor slander.

 

Filing a police report about what actually happened is not libel nor slander.

 

For police to look into someone's background for past complaints, and to determine if what has already been done that is known about (taking kids off the property, to his private property, in a private vehicle, without permission) is a crime or not, is not the same as reporting a crime. Depending on what the police find, taking these steps may prevent abuse from happening. To me, it would be about way more than just my own kid....it would be about protecting all potential victims. It sounds very much like this man has a pretty ideal setup for grooming victims and a place to be alone with them, and he has taken the first steps, and in texting young boys, doing an end-run around their parents to build his relationships, he was working his plan. There is no shame or guilt here in going straight to the police. His behavior may not be anything they can prosecute so far, but they may be able to stop him in his tracks and keep tabs on him going forward. It's also possible that there is legal action against him in another locale, and he is violating a legal order by being in his current job. It needs to be checked out.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I don't think anyone has said that the police should immediately haul this guy off to jail. We said that it would be a good idea to contact the police to see if this man has a history of abusing children, as well as to find out whether or not the man broke any laws by taking the children off-premises without parental consent. Additionally, for all the OP knows, this guy could already be under investigation, or the police could have had similar complaints against him in the past.

 

Our local police would take this seriously, and would welcome a report like the OP's, even if it turned out to be nothing in the end. They always say that if anyone in town sees any kind of suspicious behavior, they should call immediately. IMO, this would definitely qualify as suspicious behavior.

[Catwoman]

The other parents should check with their sons about texts and various things.

 

 

This is very important. Just because the guy didn't try anything s*exual with the OP's son, does not mean that he hasn't tried it with any of the other boys, or been more suggestive in his texts or conversations with them.

 

I hope nothing has happened, but this guy is exhibiting classic grooming behavior, and I think it's incredibly creepy. It's particularly creepy because it sounds like he's a good manipulator (people like and trust him; the kids didn't rat him out for taking them off-premises, etc.,) and those skills can take years of practice to perfect, so this probably isn't the first time he has tried to form relationships with young boys.

 

I truly hope I am completely mistaken about this man, but it's hard to brush off the things he has done as being nothing more than poor judgment.

[Snickerdoodle]

 

It's particularly creepy because it sounds like he's a good manipulator (people like and trust him; the kids didn't rat him out for taking them off-premises, etc.,) and those skills can take years of practice to perfect, so this probably isn't the first time he has tried to form relationships with young boys.

:iagree:

[ErinE]

I realize that Mommy imaginations can take us many places, but when dealing with legal issues, only the cold, hard facts matter. Some of the posts on this thread sound like it is assumed that sexual misconduct has already occurred. We don't know that, and that wasn't the complaint by the OP. From a parenting standpoint, we should trust our instincts. I wouldn't hesitate to keep my child from attending an event or a church if I distrusted someone in leadership. However, that doesn't mean it's something I would take to the police. What would I tell the police? The person gives me the creeps? :001_huh: They'll tell you to come back when you have an actual criminal complaint.

 

I agree with this. The youth volunteer may be unaware his actions were wrong. He might be trying to be a cool "big brother" and thought he could reach out to the boys directly. Young adults can and usually are still very immature, because they haven't been exposed to as many tricky moral situations. As parents, we're aware of predator tactics and are watchful for our children. But many young men may not be. Before destroying his life by making accusations, make sure you're only stating the facts.

 

Just the facts alone make it clear the volunteer made a series of bad decisions and lacks sufficient oversight. For the church's own protection, it needs to step up its youth protection training. I also think the volunteer needs to be removed from one-on-one contact with the youth until he's gone through additional counseling and then, assuming it was just really bad judgement, should only be allowed limited contact under strict supervision.

[Scarlett]

I don't think it needs to be an either or solution. I would contact the church AND the police, on the same day. I would tell both the cold hard facts and let the police decide if further investigation is warranted. If he is harmless (yet clearly clueless) it will be a good wake up call for him to stop creepy behavior toward children.

 

I also would be contacting the parents of all those other children. I would NOT leave that to the church or the police. The other parents may not know what is going on. *I* would want to be contacted if I were any of them.

 

I was just thinking about my own 12 year old son. He has only had a phone for 6 months...My brother asked my permission to text my son! If an adult male were to text my son without my permission I would NOT be happy.

[Starr]

How would you know if it's just bad judgement?

 

 

 

I agree with this. The youth volunteer may be unaware his actions were wrong. He might be trying to be a cool "big brother" and thought he could reach out to the boys directly. Young adults can and usually are still very immature, because they haven't been exposed to as many tricky moral situations. As parents, we're aware of predator tactics and are watchful for our children. But many young men may not be. Before destroying his life by making accusations, make sure you're only stating the facts.

 

Just the facts alone make it clear the volunteer made a series of bad decisions and lacks sufficient oversight. For the church's own protection, it needs to step up its youth protection training. I also think the volunteer needs to be removed from one-on-one contact with the youth until he's gone through additional counseling and then, assuming it was just really bad judgement, should only be allowed limited contact under strict supervision.

[Sahamamama]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I'm so sorry that something so horrible happened to you. My ds is 12 right now, and while I know I can be overprotective, it's stories like yours that make me feel good about my decision. Keep up the good work, Mama!

 

It's even worse that you held it all inside for 12 years. It's hard enough to get through something like that when you have lots of support, but all alone? I can't even imagine how you managed. :grouphug:

 

.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Sahamamama

[LucyStoner]

First of all, libel or slander do not apply. Accusing a named person of doing something you know to be false, either on a blog or in a newspaper or in person - deliberately lying and misleading about someone's character is libel or slander.

 

Defamation, either through spoken words (slander) or written words (libel) is someone alleging untrue facts. It would be libel to write "Jack murdered Joe" if Jack did not murder Joe. The defendent's belief that Jack committed the murder is not, at least in my state, relevant. All that is relevant is if the statement of fact is factually correct.

 

Sticking only to the truth "Volunteer took several boys in a car alone" is not defamation. Stating an opinion "I find this volunteer's actions inappropriate and creepy. What he did makes me worry about my child's safety." is not defamation. However, even if you think the volunteer is a child molester, stating that he is a child molester can be defamation if he is not, despite your belief. Finally, defamation requires damages to make a case. So loss of employment, employability, housing etc are possible damages. Hurt feelings are not. In short, the op is not opening herself up to viable defamation claims unless she strays from the facts she know for sure or her opinion.

 

I would be very concerned in this situation and certainly would not be attending that church without BIG changes in training, policy and oversight. If the man wanted to share his property with church members for their enjoyment and had trully clean intent, he would have made the offer to the pastor and let a well chaperoned, advertised to parents, trip come into shape. With permission slips. He would not be driving kids there alone or inviting them without the sanction of their parents and an organized, legit, church event.

Edited August 15, 2012 by kijipt

[laundrycrisis]

I agree with this. The youth volunteer may be unaware his actions were wrong. He might be trying to be a cool "big brother" and thought he could reach out to the boys directly. Young adults can and usually are still very immature, because they haven't been exposed to as many tricky moral situations. As parents, we're aware of predator tactics and are watchful for our children. But many young men may not be. Before destroying his life by making accusations, make sure you're only stating the facts.

 

Just the facts alone make it clear the volunteer made a series of bad decisions and lacks sufficient oversight. For the church's own protection, it needs to step up its youth protection training. I also think the volunteer needs to be removed from one-on-one contact with the youth until he's gone through additional counseling and then, assuming it was just really bad judgement, should only be allowed limited contact under strict supervision.

 

Experienced manipulators are also good at convincing adults that their intentions were blameless and innocent. The man needs to be checked out by someone who knows how to do that professionally, who will not be swayed by personality, charm, or the appearance of innocent poor judgement.

[Audrey]

The ONLY way I'd speak to a pastor was to tell him he may have a pervert in his flock, and that while you are checking him out the pastor may want to do the same. Then I'd tell him how dangerous it was, and how damaging to his congregation, that an adult would take underage children off alone. There's no way in hell I'd leave it up to a church to solve the problem. IMO, that's putting the church before the children.

 

:iagree: The pastor needs to be a part of this, but not the only part. Law enforcement must be informed. The guy had no parental consent to remove those children to another location. In my are, a similar incident (youth group leader taking children to unapproved location without parental consent) very recently took place. According to provincial law, it is possible the adult in question could be charged with kidnapping.

[Farrar]

Huh. I personally wouldn't contact the police. As others said, no crime, just a whole lot of creepy and some very bad judgment taking kids away from the site. I would give the church first crack at handling it - after contacting the other parents with a heads up - but I would also follow up and be willing to contact other authorities if they did nothing.

 

But it's so creepy that I wouldn't blame anyone who took it to the police first. Again, I'm usually the person saying we need to give men a break, but this guy? I don't think so.

[Juniper]

:iagree: The pastor needs to be a part of this, but not the only part. Law enforcement must be informed. The guy had no parental consent to remove those children to another location. In my are, a similar incident (youth group leader taking children to unapproved location without parental consent) very recently took place. According to provincial law, it is possible the adult in question could be charged with kidnapping.

 

This is a good point, but if he was acting as an agent of the church the church would be open to a charge as well.

 

I amend my earlier statement to say that, I would hold on to the option of consulting the police depending on how the Pastor TRULY moves forward with this situation.

[Lovedtodeath]

I don't think it needs to be an either or solution. I would contact the church AND the police, on the same day.

The danger of this is that those with authority in the church can sway the parents into not contacting the police, either nicely or not so nicely. They can spread rumors about the parents, mark them, etc. They can insist on interrogating the children.

 

Going directly to the police is safer for the parents and the child, and if the church is a safe church, that puts the children first, instead of protecting pedophiles in order to protect their precious reputation then they will see it that way too.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

This is a good point, but if he was acting as an agent of the church the church would be open to a charge as well.

 

I amend my earlier statement to say that, I would hold on to the option of consulting the police depending on how the Pastor TRULY moves forward with this situation.

 

Let me just throw in here that unless there is something else going on, there will not be a kidnapping charge in this situation. If other illegal activities occurred, then it would be possible. Based on what the OP has said? No.

 

At this point, what we have is inappropriate behavior, and so far, nothing criminal. Alerting the church authorities is appropriate, and making inquiries with the police is reasonable (but not something I would do at this point). Making accusations, claims of kidnapping and the like would not be helpful, and could easily muddy the waters.

[Catwoman]

I agree with this. The youth volunteer may be unaware his actions were wrong. He might be trying to be a cool "big brother" and thought he could reach out to the boys directly. Young adults can and usually are still very immature, because they haven't been exposed to as many tricky moral situations.

 

Do we know that this man is young? I was under the impression that he owns a ranch, so my assumption was that he's not exactly a young guy in his early 20's.

 

Did I miss a post somewhere about the guy's age?

[elfgivas]

dallas has this great setup

 

Dallas Children's Advocacy Center http://www.dcac.org/

 

where they have established a whole group of folks to deal with potential victims and perpetrators. the dallas police child abuse squad is housed in the same building!

 

so if it were me, i'd pick up the phone and start with saying i'd like advice. i'd state in as neutral terms as i could what you have told us. i'd say that nothing has been said about any sexually inappropriate behavior, but you were afraid that it might be grooming behavior, or that something may have happened that you don't know about, and wondered if they had advice about how you should handle it with your son, with the volunteer, with the church. my hunch is that they will be incredibly thankful to have someone call them before the waters are completely muddied.

 

(eg. of muddying.... it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the first thing the pastor will do is call the volunteer and warn him that there is a problem. from there, texts may be deleted, plans altered, other boys talked to and stories changed, etc, etc.. i sure hope not, but it wouldn't be the first time)

 

they may also have some great resources for you to use with your son.

 

and we'll hope that all that comes out of this is that everyone is older and wiser.

 

:grouphug:

ann

[Incognito]

Yeah, I think there is a big difference between if this man is in his early 20's (I can totally see it happening) and a mature adult (sorry, 20 yo's, I've managed enough programs with you leading that I will not give you mature adult status! :) ). Also, culture can play a role. Where we live now things are much more lax about this sort of thing than they were where I grew up. Here life is small town and doing criminal checks on volunteers is something we are newly implementing in the church. However, it really is a small town and most people do know the backgrounds of most people.

 

ETA: I didn't mean to sound like this could be normal. It isn't and it is totally unacceptable. I'd be creeped out too. If this person is a mature adult and has somehow gotten that old and is still that clueless, they should not be around kids/teens anyways.

[Catwoman]

so if it were me, i'd pick up the phone and start with saying i'd like advice. i'd state in as neutral terms as i could what you have told us. i'd say that nothing has been said about any sexually inappropriate behavior, but you were afraid that it might be grooming behavior, or that something may have happened that you don't know about, and wondered if they had advice about how you should handle it with your son, with the volunteer, with the church. my hunch is that they will be incredibly thankful to have someone call them before the waters are completely muddied.

 

(eg. of muddying.... it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the first thing the pastor will do is call the volunteer and warn him that there is a problem. from there, texts may be deleted, plans altered, other boys talked to and stories changed, etc, etc.. i sure hope not, but it wouldn't be the first time)

 

:iagree:

 

That sounds like an excellent course of action, Ann. :001_smile:

[Guest submarines]

Do we know that this man is young? I was under the impression that he owns a ranch, so my assumption was that he's not exactly a young guy in his early 20's.

 

Did I miss a post somewhere about the guy's age?

 

Since the "ranch" was in quotation marks, I didn't really envision an actual ranch. :confused: Could be his parents' "ranch" or ranch. I agree that his age is relevant. A 20 year old man could be quite naive.

[elfgivas]

they have online resources, too.

 

hth,

ann

[Element]

OP, you could call your county's State's Attorney's office and see whether or not they think you should inform LE. That happens quite often in domestic abuse cases (obviously I'm not comparing this to a domestic abuse case, I'm just saying it wouldn't be a totally-out-of-the-ordinary call for the paralegal/legal intern/secretary at the SA office.) They can't give legal advice, but they can help you file a report if it is necessary. And for the record, people file reports all the time. Filing a report does not necessarily mean that anyone will get charged with anything. You file a report, then LE/SA decide what to do with it. A report is not just "(THIS PERSON) committed (THIS CRIME), I hereby require you to go arrest them!" A report is just a report. They will look at it and determine whether or not they think a crime has possibly been committed. If they do not think it has, and if they think this is just some crazy momagigation thing, nothing will come of it.

 

I totally agree with PPs that it is iffy whether or not the guy had the right to do what he did acting as an agent of the church. However, that is a matter of law, and it is not really up to the parent to decide whether or not a law has been broken. I repeat what I said earlier: Going to LE is not unreasonable in this situation.

[LoriK]

Let's take the creepy aspect out for a moment. Even without the whole sexual worries, what he did was wrong.

 

1. You don't take kids in your car without their parent's permission. Since the kids were on a church mission trip, he put the church at a huge liability risk. If he had crashed with your kids in the car, can you imagine the lawsuits that would have been brought against the church? If I were the pastor, I would want to know about this. Did any other leaders know that he took the kids out in his car? If so, they need better training, too. If they didn't know the kids were gone for that period of time, they need to step down from being leaders, because that is a frightening lack of supervision.

 

2. You don't contact kids, leaving their parents out of the loop. The pastor needs to know this as well, because his action could breed a mistrust of the church or youth program. It is pretty inappropriate for teachers, youth leaders, and other authority figures to have a casual relationship with kids. Facebook, texting, and emails should be more of a group announcement type of thing, not a personal exchange. Group texting everyone a reminder that Bible study is at 6 tomorrow is much different than having a conversation by text with a kid or inviting kids somewhere without clearing it with their parents.

 

3. A youth leader should never pursue a relationship with a youth group member that is outside the circle of the church. Inviting kids to an outing that isn't sponsored by the church isn't a good idea, even when you take the sexual preditor aspect out of it. It sets up favoritism issues and bad feelings from kids that weren't included.

 

The pastor needs to know what is going on and until things are resolved to your satisfaction, I would be inclined to keep my son home from events.

[Catwoman]

Oops. Double post.

[TranquilMind]

Dot: The ONLY way I'd speak to a pastor was to tell him he may have a pervert in his flock, and that while you are checking him out the pastor may want to do the same.

 

Legally,this is not good advice. Get the facts and relate THE FACTS, not your personal hunch or interpretation of the facts (though this may well be correct). You don't want to be guilty of slander or libel if you are wrong.

 

 

 

Then I'd tell him how dangerous it was, and how damaging to his congregation, that an adult would take underage children off alone.

 

Totally agree here.

 

 

There's no way in hell I'd leave it up to a church to solve the problem. IMO, that's putting the church before the children.

 

 

I'd start there. but do my own background check.

[Alessandra]

No !!!

 

It is beyond ridiculous for anyone to suggest "let the church handle it". That's just as lame as "let the University handle it...." we know how that turned out. Individuals are each responsible to operate within civil law, and to report violations or suspicions to the civil authorities. The chain of command within a church or any other organization has no bearing at all if parents are concerned that a civil law has been broken or that a situation is legally suspicious or that children may be at risk.

 

Parents have the final authority regarding their own kids. And it is never appropriate for any religious organization to attempt to supersede that, including telling parents how to raise or discipline their children. A situation like this should never ever be handed over to any sort of church leadership to handle. If someone takes children inappropriately, without permission or does anything else inappropriate or suspicious, the parents should handle it themselves with civil law officers and inform the church leadership after the fact.

 

Go to the police. Have them check to see if this man has had complaints against him, including in other states. They can find out where he lived and worked before and dig deeper than what you can do on the internet. They should also contact the families of the other boys. They can determine if in your state, taking them to a different property in a private vehicle without any sort of permission was illegal. They can help decide what the next steps are. The church should not be involved in that in any way. Please do not worry about social niceties here. Abusers get a lot of mileage out of parents wanting to trust them, not jump to conclusions, make accusations, or make waves. Trust your instincts. Alarm bells go off for a reason. Let law enforcement in on this.

 

If your church does not already have one, they need a policy in place that includes background checks and rules about contact with children. There should always be at least two adults. Always. And where they can be and what they can do with kids should be strictly defined.

 

For police to look into someone's background for past complaints, and to determine if what has already been done that is known about (taking kids off the property, to his private property, in a private vehicle, without permission) is a crime or not, is not the same as reporting a crime. Depending on what the police find, taking these steps may prevent abuse from happening. To me, it would be about way more than just my own kid....it would be about protecting all potential victims. It sounds very much like this man has a pretty ideal setup for grooming victims and a place to be alone with them, and he has taken the first steps, and in texting young boys, doing an end-run around their parents to build his relationships, he was working his plan. There is no shame or guilt here in going straight to the police. His behavior may not be anything they can prosecute so far, but they may be able to stop him in his tracks and keep tabs on him going forward. It's also possible that there is legal action against him in another locale, and he is violating a legal order by being in his current job. It needs to be checked out.

 

Just pulling your own kid out and giving a lecture to people in charge at the church could result in no change at all going forward.

 

Experienced manipulators are also good at convincing adults that their intentions were blameless and innocent. The man needs to be checked out by someone who knows how to do that professionally, who will not be swayed by personality, charm, or the appearance of innocent poor judgement.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: I posted earlier (but not so eloquently) that police should handle this. And, if no one mentioned it, police also have access to open case files, complaints that were not pursued, etc -- I don't know the legal terms for all this stuff, but, bottom line, I think police and/or child advocacy professionals will do a much better job than church would.

 

dallas has this great setup

 

Dallas Children's Advocacy Center http://www.dcac.org/

 

where they have established a whole group of folks to deal with potential victims and perpetrators. the dallas police child abuse squad is housed in the same building!

 

so if it were me, i'd pick up the phone and start with saying i'd like advice. i'd state in as neutral terms as i could what you have told us. i'd say that nothing has been said about any sexually inappropriate behavior, but you were afraid that it might be grooming behavior, or that something may have happened that you don't know about, and wondered if they had advice about how you should handle it with your son, with the volunteer, with the church. my hunch is that they will be incredibly thankful to have someone call them before the waters are completely muddied.

 

(eg. of muddying.... it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the first thing the pastor will do is call the volunteer and warn him that there is a problem. from there, texts may be deleted, plans altered, other boys talked to and stories changed, etc, etc.. i sure hope not, but it wouldn't be the first time)

 

they may also have some great resources for you to use with your son.

 

and we'll hope that all that comes out of this is that everyone is older and wiser.

 

:grouphug:

ann

 

Great idea!

[Pink and Green Mom]

The lawyer in me says pay particular attention to the minister's reaction to what happened on the previous mission trip.

 

Who knows - the guy may have said to another adult "hey, I wonder if any of the kids would like to go to my ranch" and he was given "permission" from whomever was responsible for your child for that trip. Your son may not be aware that such a conversation took place.

 

I think the whole thing is creepy but you may get a "nothing to see here, move along" if the minister realizes someone within the church okayed the side trip and he may go into "cover your rear" mode.

[starwarsmomma]

Hubby's home!

 

Ok, hubby asked me to be VERY vague as to what is going on, because of current situations that are ongoing.

 

so.... let's just say that we are VERY satisfied wtih how the church (and "others") are going to be working together to investigate/research. We are VERY satisfied with how the pastor reacted, and how he is handling the situation, and how he is communicating with others. And how he immediately involved "others"

 

My husband has already been cc'd and contacted already by others investigating/researching.

 

Poor pastor. LOL Hubby said he looked like a truck hit him by all the info. He never once did defend any of the actions of the Bible teacher, usually saying, OH NO-- we can't have that! over and over....

 

Anyway, that's all I can really say. At least right now.

 

Thanks so much for your input! I love you guys!