Aw man, and it was all going so well until...

[Susan C.]

Is it bad that I've never read To Train Up a Child (or even heard of it) and have no clue what CTBHHM even stands for?? I'm so culturally illiterate. I think I spent too much time watching Monty Python. :p

 

You're much better off!! :D

[Mommyfaithe]

Is it bad that I've never read To Train Up a Child (or even heard of it) and have no clue what CTBHHM even stands for?? I'm so culturally illiterate. I think I spent too much time watching Monty Python. :p

 

Nudge nudge, wink, wink....say no more....say no more:D

[Sahamamama]

Thanks ladies. I need that perspective... Right now they think that I am flawed in my thinking... Unbiblical and what-not. But I would like to think that maybe they'll come around?

 

Yes, I was just going to post this. As in, "You know, Heather, those parents probably now believe that you are a terrible parent, unbiblical, going to hell, with your kids not far behind...." But you already know all that, right? ;) Just hang in there, though, because you may have planted a seed in them that will one day bear fruit. You never know where that supper conversation might lead them, even if it doesn't turn into a friendship for you and yours.

 

:grouphug: FWIW, I don't think I could bite my tongue on that issue, either.

[Ibbygirl]

You're much better off!! :D

 

Nudge nudge, wink, wink....say no more....say no more:D

 

LOL :p

 

On a serious note though.... I have a hard time making friends, (shocking I know. :p I'm just as weird and Hyper IRL as I am on here) and it used to really bother me. I prayed to God and asked Him to send me a friend for years and He never did. I eventually found this forum a few years back and have made some wonderful friends here so things are better, but I often wonder if God was sparing me??

 

When I read some of the things that you ladies talk about that go on in your home schooling groups and communities it makes me glad that I live in my own world and haven't come across these things. Maybe God didn't answer my prayer because He was sheltering me from crazies? :p Who knows.....

[FO4UR]

Because, for some people, hitting infants with switches and beating children with plastic hoses until they "no longer have breath to complain," actually is a huge issue. Breast vs. bottle, co-sleeping vs. "Ferberizing," organic vs. junk food, homeschooling vs. PS — none of those things would be a deal-breaker for me in terms of friendship. But anyone who thinks it's OK to hit infants and children with switches and plastic hoses just lives on a completely different planet from me, and there'd be no point in pretending otherwise.

 

Jackie

 

 

:iagree:

[Mommyfaithe]

LOL :p

 

On a serious note though.... I have a hard time making friends, (shocking I know. :p I'm just as weird and Hyper IRL as I am on here) and it used to really bother me. I prayed to God and asked Him to send me a friend for years and He never did. I eventually found this forum a few years back and have made some wonderful friends here so things are better, but I often wonder if God was sparing me??

 

When I read some of the things that you ladies talk about that go on in your home schooling groups and communities it makes me glad that I live in my own world and haven't come across these things. Maybe God didn't answer my prayer because He was sheltering me from crazies? :p Who knows.....

 

I seriously think this just might be the case. I think you were spared an awful lot of pain and confusion.....I don't pray to have friends anymore......

[Scrub Jay]

No, sorry. I am friends with people with different parenting styles. I am not friends with people that abuse their children. I think what the Pearls advocate is abuse, and nothing short of it. To me, hitting an infant with an implement is abuse, end of story. I won't hang out with child abusers.

 

:iagree:

[SKL]

If I'm reading a book that strongly recommends methods so sickening, there's no way I can continue reading it, let alone ever list it among my very favorites. Again, their doing so speaks volumes about the way they approach parenting and the world.

 

Then I assume you never made it very far through the Bible. Or the Koran.

[melissel]

Then I assume you never made it very far through the Bible. Or the Koran.

 

You would be correct. But I don't consider the Pearls' books to be in the same universe as the Bible or Koran.

[SKL]

You would be correct. But I don't consider the Pearls' books to be in the same universe as the Bible or Koran.

 

No, I'm not saying they are.

[Ohdanigirl]

:grouphug:

 

I have never read that book, but after learning about it here I know to avoid it.

[Ibbygirl]

I seriously think this just might be the case. I think you were spared an awful lot of pain and confusion.....I don't pray to have friends anymore......

 

I think you are right. God is always so good to me. Even when He says no to me, it's with my best in mind. :001_wub:

[Corraleno]

Actually, I think that someone who comes out and talks openly about the fact that they are open to corporal punishment is less likely to be an abuser than someone who hides this... You may in fact have several in your circle of friends. It's not like they are going to tell you that they kicked their kid last night or whatever.[/Quote]

I know for a fact that none of my friends hits their kids. We may have a wide range of opinions about religion, politics, and education, but that is one thing we definitely have in common. Frankly, I'd rather have no friends than spend time with anyone who thinks it's OK to hit a baby with a stick.

 

There are many, many child abusers who did not get their ideas from any book.

Of course there are. There are also child abusers who do get their ideas from books, including the Pearls' books. The sick thing about the Pearls is that they try to convince people that God wants them to beat their kids, and that failing to do so means they are not good Christians. At best, they're providing a Biblical justification for abuse, which can be deadly in the hands of people who are already inclined towards abuse, and at worst they are creating abusers out of parents who would never have thought of beating a child with plastic tubing until the Pearls told them that God demands it.

 

Jackie

[clarkacademy]

CTBHHM stands for Created To Be His Help Meet, another book by the Pearls (the authors of To Train Up A Child).

 

 

I heard about that book I don't think they are good authors

[forty-two]

The sick thing about the Pearls is that they try to convince people that God wants them to beat their kids, and that failing to do so means they are not good Christians. At best, they're providing a Biblical justification for abuse, which can be deadly in the hands of people who are already inclined towards abuse, and at worst they are creating abusers out of parents who would never have thought of beating a child with plastic tubing until the Pearls told them that God demands it.

 

:iagree: And the Pearls in particular make really heinous things sound totally reasonable. Maybe I'm just highly suggestible, but I read TTUAC for research purposes, was thoroughly prejudiced against it before starting, and they *still* managed to make switching infants sound like the natural, sensible thing to do. I was shocked and disturbed at how persuasive they were.

[mamajag]

If I'm reading a book that strongly recommends methods so sickening, there's no way I can continue reading it, let alone ever list it among my very favorites. Again, their doing so speaks volumes about the way they approach parenting and the world.

:iagree:

[NanceXToo]

Because, for some people, hitting infants with switches and beating children with plastic hoses until they "no longer have breath to complain," actually is a huge issue. Breast vs. bottle, co-sleeping vs. "Ferberizing," organic vs. junk food, homeschooling vs. PS — none of those things would be a deal-breaker for me in terms of friendship. But anyone who thinks it's OK to hit infants and children with switches and plastic hoses just lives on a completely different planet from me, and there'd be no point in pretending otherwise.

 

Jackie

 

:iagree:

 

No, sorry. I am friends with people with different parenting styles. I am not friends with people that abuse their children. I think what the Pearls advocate is abuse, and nothing short of it. To me, hitting an infant with an implement is abuse, end of story. I won't hang out with child abusers.

 

:iagree: Again!

 

Is it bad that I've never read To Train Up a Child (or even heard of it) and have no clue what CTBHHM even stands for?? I'm so culturally illiterate. I think I spent too much time watching Monty Python. :p

 

Not bad at all. You're much better off for it. It's vile.

[joannqn]

Now see, I don't know if I would let someone's favorite book kill a friendship.

 

 

It's not just a book, it is a horrific style of parenting. If I met someone who said they loved that book, I wouldn't bother trying for a friendship. I simply can't. Babywise or GKGW has the same affect. I simply can't. I had to leave a small group at my old church because one of the families was a Babywise-style parent. I couldn't sit in that living room listening to their baby scream for more than an hour every week. I left in tears every time. I quit. My son had a hard time being in the nursery with their child as well. He was only 3 at the time, but it really bothered him to listen to their older child cry throughout the entire church service because they specifically instructed the workers not to call them out for any reason. When they did call them out once, I heard the father do nothing more than tell him he was being bad for crying and then walk out on him again. It was awful.

 

Am I a perfect parent? Heck no! But I can't watch or listen to what Ezzo and the Pearls advocate and pretend it's ok.

[Guest]

No. They are saying they like the book. I like the Bible, but I don't advocate stoning children to death if they get out of hand (or many other things the Bible instructs).

 

Now if they actually said "we are proud to say that we regularly beat our infant with a stick," that would be a different matter. I haven't seen the OP mention that.

 

The Bible does not instruct anyone to stone children to death if they get out of hand. Come on!

[WishboneDawn]

...They mentioned To Train Up a Child. :glare:

 

New family here, they seemed nice, similar theological beliefs, etc.

 

So we invited them over for dinner. Everything was going so well until they recommended that book in a list of 3 of their favorites.

 

Well, I'm not well-known for my ability to pass the bean dip, not when it comes to that book. It got a little ugly. They left.

 

Well, it was fun while it lasted.

 

I noticed my childrens' music teacher reading it one day. I picked up Kids Are Worth It! today at a used book sale to pass on to her. She had her first child a few mnths before I did and we've been giving each other baby stuff we aren't using. Hopefully it might give her some food for thought.:glare:

[jennynd]

The Bible does not instruct anyone to stone children to death if they get out of hand. Come on!

:iagree:

I can only shake my head and wondering what kind of monster follows the discipline in the book.

[aggieamy]

You're right; moms used to hit their kids with their hands, not inanimate objects. At some point that was determined to be unhealthy for the relationship. However, I personally witnessed tiny babies being (a) slapped in the face for biting on the nipple, every time it happened; (b) spanked on the diapered butt or thighs for tantruming over having to go to bed or stay in some sort of restraint; © smacked for spitting the contents of their mouths at the person feeding them; (d) spanked just for crying without reason, "giving them somethng to cry about" (which interestingly calms many wound-up babies down); (e) set up intentionally to crawl over a telephone wire, then smacked hard when the little six-month-old hands happened to touch the wire (that, I thought was ridiculous even then), and plenty of other examples. This was normal when I was a kid.

 

You must have had a different cicle of friends then my family did. My maternal and paternal grandparents didn't spank or hit like that and from conversations I've had with them since I've become an adult neither did people in their cicle of friends. All advice they've given me has been very gentle. I wasn't spanked as a child so I know this can't be a new thing. I have sibling that are 40 yo and older. I don't believe that 40 years ago everyone was beating babies.

 

I cannot be friends with anyone that thinks a parenting style that allows hitting an infant AT ALL is acceptable. Then again I'm Catholic so I'm sure the Pearls think I'm going to hell anyway despite my lax parenting attitude.

[Corraleno]

Yep, sometimes it's helpful to think how it would feel to be on the other side.

You mean it would be helpful for me to imagine how it would feel to be shunned by normal, rational people just because I think it's OK to beat babies and children with sticks and hoses?

 

Well, I wish it felt like crap, because then maybe they'd stop and think about what they're doing. But unfortunately that rarely seems to be case — Heather's experience with her dinner guests being a case in point. How can their feelings be hurt when they know they're so much better and more Christian than the people (like Heather) who disagree with them?

 

Those of us who've been working at either gig longer tend to be a bit humbler and less adamant - life having knocked us down a peg or two from our original ideals.

And then there are those who stick to their ideals and values no matter what life throws at them. No matter how long I live or how much I parent, NOTHING will ever convince me that it's OK to hit babies or to beat children with a pipe until they can hardly breathe. Accepting child abuse as just another "parenting choice" is not proof of humility or wisdom. IMHO, it is quite the opposite.

 

Jackie

[Dustybug]

Now see, I don't know if I would let someone's favorite book kill a friendship. I'm not saying I agree with the Pearl's thinking. But I have friends who use some of their things, I have friends who co-sleep and friends who put their kids in their own bed, in their own room and let them cry it out. I have friends who chose bottle over breast and friends who breast feed until their kids were 3 years old, plus. We all have different philosophies of rearing our children. But we focus on what we share; a strong desire to have manageable children which grow to be successful adults, exhaustion, the 'I am going to wring their necks' syndrome, and the need for coffee times. Sometimes at the drop of a hat.

 

I am also a devout Christian, and I have home school friends that home school solely because of their school district. And we just overlook the things we don't agree with. She's even listen as I complained about not being able to find a good Bible Curriculum, and commented with the generic response of 'Yep, finding a curriculum that meets all your needs is difficult. After which I apologized. She said not to worry. It IS difficult to find just the right curriculum for ANY subject. We just focus on our common ground, and ignore our differences.

 

Just my humble opinion. I hope I don't offend anyone. This was NOT meant to be offensive.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[awisha.]

...They mentioned To Train Up a Child. :glare:

 

New family here, they seemed nice, similar theological beliefs, etc.

 

So we invited them over for dinner. Everything was going so well until they recommended that book in a list of 3 of their favorites.

 

Well, I'm not well-known for my ability to pass the bean dip, not when it comes to that book. It got a little ugly. They left.

 

Well, it was fun while it lasted.

 

Please don't feel bad about losing a possible friend because you absolutely did the right thing.

 

And the Pearls in particular make really heinous things sound totally reasonable. Maybe I'm just highly suggestible, but I read TTUAC for research purposes, was thoroughly prejudiced against it before starting, and they *still* managed to make switching infants sound like the natural, sensible thing to do. I was shocked and disturbed at how persuasive they were.

 

:iagree: 100%. I didn't even get through half the book because I started thinking that what I was reading sounded ok. Anyone who advocates child abuse is a monster.

[Mama2Many4]

You must have had a different cicle of friends then my family did. My maternal and paternal grandparents didn't spank or hit like that and from conversations I've had with them since I've become an adult neither did people in their cicle of friends. All advice they've given me has been very gentle. I wasn't spanked as a child so I know this can't be a new thing. I have sibling that are 40 yo and older. I don't believe that 40 years ago everyone was beating babies.

 

I cannot be friends with anyone that thinks a parenting style that allows hitting an infant AT ALL is acceptable. Then again I'm Catholic so I'm sure the Pearls think I'm going to hell anyway despite my lax parenting attitude.

 

Me too. My kids often laugh themselves to sleep after a tickle fest with me. I'd never think of beating them. Esp a BABY!

[SKL]

The Bible does not instruct anyone to stone children to death if they get out of hand. Come on!

 

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. -- Deuteronomy 21:18-21

[Susann]

Now see, I don't know if I would let someone's favorite book kill a friendship. I'm not saying I agree with the Pearl's thinking. But I have friends who use some of their things, I have friends who co-sleep and friends who put their kids in their own bed, in their own room and let them cry it out. I have friends who chose bottle over breast and friends who breast feed until their kids were 3 years old, plus. We all have different philosophies of rearing our children. But we focus on what we share; a strong desire to have manageable children which grow to be successful adults, exhaustion, the 'I am going to wring their necks' syndrome, and the need for coffee times. Sometimes at the drop of a hat.

 

I am also a devout Christian, and I have home school friends that home school solely because of their school district. And we just overlook the things we don't agree with. She's even listen as I complained about not being able to find a good Bible Curriculum, and commented with the generic response of 'Yep, finding a curriculum that meets all your needs is difficult. After which I apologized. She said not to worry. It IS difficult to find just the right curriculum for ANY subject. We just focus on our common ground, and ignore our differences.

 

Just my humble opinion. I hope I don't offend anyone. This was NOT meant to be offensive.

:iagree:I just spent an afternoon with a friend whose beliefs are almost polar opposite of mine. She causes me to REALLY examine my beliefs and to be able to articulate respectfully why I think her views in certain areas-including parenting-are wrong. She also does the same to me/my beliefs. I feel that we both grow in understanding.

[Mama2Many4]

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. -- Deuteronomy 21:18-21

 

I don't know many 3 year old gluttons and drunkards.

[YaelAldrich]

FYI, We Jews (from which these Biblical verses come) understand this to be a case of a child who is approaching the age of majority (13 for a son) and has been steadily escalating his misbehavior. His parents have warned him and now they go before the elders /judges/rabbis at the city gate. The parents must be the same height, use the same words and in the same voice and tone tell the above-mentioned sentences to the rabbis in order to stop the child before he becomes of age and culpable of the offences he is committing.

 

Oh, and by the way, the Rabbis said this NEVER EVER happened in history.

[Guest]

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. -- Deuteronomy 21:18-21

 

 

You have to read the whole Bible to get the full message ;):

 

John 8:5-7

 

5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

 

6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

[Ibbygirl]

Sort of like the night some people at church asked us over so we could develop a friendship.

 

Turned out to be an Amway pitch.

 

I told them that we didn't discuss our financial goals with our friends, and it came out OK.

 

It ended up OK that night, but we never saw them again.

 

That's messed up. :glare: I think you handled it well though. :)

[Rivka]

It's not just a book, it is a horrific style of parenting. If I met someone who said they loved that book, I wouldn't bother trying for a friendship. I simply can't. Babywise or GKGW has the same affect. I simply can't. I had to leave a small group at my old church because one of the families was a Babywise-style parent. I couldn't sit in that living room listening to their baby scream for more than an hour every week. I left in tears every time. I quit. My son had a hard time being in the nursery with their child as well. He was only 3 at the time, but it really bothered him to listen to their older child cry throughout the entire church service because they specifically instructed the workers not to call them out for any reason. When they did call them out once, I heard the father do nothing more than tell him he was being bad for crying and then walk out on him again. It was awful.

 

Am I a perfect parent? Heck no! But I can't watch or listen to what Ezzo and the Pearls advocate and pretend it's ok.

 

:iagree: I am frequently around my friends who are parents while they are parenting and/or disciplining their kids. It's just the way it is when your kids are young. There is a broad range of parenting approaches that are "not my thing, but whatever" - I might inwardly roll my eyes or disapprove, but it's not a big deal.

 

But I don't want to watch a child being hit, or expose my children to the same. (Before someone comes after me with a false dichotomy, I also don't want to watch a kid go wild hurting other kids or destroying things and have the parent make no response, or expose my kids to the same. But those aren't the only two options.) I couldn't sit by and watch someone parent the Pearl way.

[elfgivas]

...They mentioned To Train Up a Child. :glare:

 

New family here, they seemed nice, similar theological beliefs, etc.

 

So we invited them over for dinner. Everything was going so well until they recommended that book in a list of 3 of their favorites.

 

Well, I'm not well-known for my ability to pass the bean dip, not when it comes to that book. It got a little ugly. They left.

 

Well, it was fun while it lasted.

 

sometimes its important to NOT pass the bean dip. there is a difference between minor differences of opinion, and things that fundamentally damage people's bodies and souls. to pass the bean dip over minor differences makes sense.... but i truly believe God calls us to stand with those who have no power.... and that definitely includes infants and small children.

 

after i read your post, two quotes came to mind.

 

first was either Tolstoy or Burke (depending on who you read)

 

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

 

second was one from pastor Martin Niemöller

 

 

First they came for the

communists

,

 

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

 

Then they came for the

trade unionists

,

 

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

 

Then they came for the

Jews

,

 

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

 

Then they came for me

 

and there was no one left to speak out for me.

 

 

 

 

 

:grouphug:

 

 

 

ann

 

 

 

 

[ma23peas]

...They mentioned To Train Up a Child. :glare:

 

 

Well, I'm not well-known for my ability to pass the bean dip, not when it comes to that book. It got a little ugly. They left.

 

Well, it was fun while it lasted.

 

Maybe I am in the minority here...but I think when you invite someone over to your house, you should be gracious and avoid conflict...now if they asked you for your opinion, that can be a different story. I am completely against the teachings of this book, but I am more for how we respond to others and 'love' them...I am not sure making sure your point is made trumps a responsibility to love one another...there may have been a better time to approach the subject, but now that conflict has arisen, there likely will not be a relationship to help encourage/influence....if it were a stranger at a park and the discussion comes up, go for it,..but you invited them over..I have a problem with it not ending well.

[Jen500]

Maybe I am in the minority here...but I think when you invite someone over to your house, you should be gracious and avoid conflict...now if they asked you for your opinion, that can be a different story. I am completely against the teachings of this book, but I am more for how we respond to others and 'love' them...I am not sure making sure your point is made trumps a responsibility to love one another...there may have been a better time to approach the subject, but now that conflict has arisen, there likely will not be a relationship to help encourage/influence....if it were a stranger at a park and the discussion comes up, go for it,..but you invited them over..I have a problem with it not ending well.

 

Just curious how you would handle the situation if a couple invited you and your husband over for dinner, and then said you should try a wife swap for dessert.

[In the Rain]

There are also child abusers who do get their ideas from books, including the Pearls' books. The sick thing about the Pearls is that they try to convince people that God wants them to beat their kids, and that failing to do so means they are not good Christians. At best, they're providing a Biblical justification for abuse, which can be deadly in the hands of people who are already inclined towards abuse, and at worst they are creating abusers out of parents who would never have thought of beating a child with plastic tubing until the Pearls told them that God demands it.

 

Jackie

:iagree:

 

 

It's not just a book, it is a horrific style of parenting.

 

:iagree:

[leeannpal]

Now see, I don't know if I would let someone's favorite book kill a friendship. I'm not saying I agree with the Pearl's thinking. But I have friends who use some of their things, I have friends who co-sleep and friends who put their kids in their own bed, in their own room and let them cry it out. I have friends who chose bottle over breast and friends who breast feed until their kids were 3 years old, plus. We all have different philosophies of rearing our children. But we focus on what we share; a strong desire to have manageable children which grow to be successful adults, exhaustion, the 'I am going to wring their necks' syndrome, and the need for coffee times. Sometimes at the drop of a hat.

 

I am also a devout Christian, and I have home school friends that home school solely because of their school district. And we just overlook the things we don't agree with. She's even listen as I complained about not being able to find a good Bible Curriculum, and commented with the generic response of 'Yep, finding a curriculum that meets all your needs is difficult. After which I apologized. She said not to worry. It IS difficult to find just the right curriculum for ANY subject. We just focus on our common ground, and ignore our differences.

 

Just my humble opinion. I hope I don't offend anyone. This was NOT meant to be offensive.

:iagree: If the kids seem well adjusted and obviously not abused, I think I would have just changed the subject. But, then, I'm not one for confrontation.

[Melinda in VT]

Just curious how you would handle the situation if a couple invited you and your husband over for dinner, and then said you should try a wife swap for dessert.

 

:lol: That doesn't seem like an analogous situation. The other couple presumably wasn't trying to get Heather and her DH to adopt the Pearls' parenting approach.

 

As to the wife swap, I'd just say no. I wouldn't expect it to turn into an argument.

[Impish]

I think speaking out where you see evil is the right thing to do.

 

Many, many ppl see the Pearl's writings as just that. Evil.

[cin]

I have read the Pearl's books. And I certainly did not beat my baby, but it did help me with certain aspects of child-rearing. Now, I admit, I was a horrific pushover and VERY inconsistent. With a strong-willed child. Through their books I saw that I needed to be more structured and consistent. Again, I did not become abusive. But I did pick up some other interesting tips. My friend loaned me the books. She too, is not a child abuser. I think she got some of the same things from their books. I do NOT agree with everything in the book, but I read them and did find some things beneficial.

 

FTR we do NOT spank our kids. At all.

 

And I did find the switching of infants somewhat disturbing. But my friend's kids are ok, so I read past that part to see what she liked about them so much. I think for her it was the same thing; boundaries, consistency, mean what you say, say what you mean type of stuff.

[Jen500]

:lol: That doesn't seem like an analogous situation. The other couple presumably wasn't trying to get Heather and her DH to adopt the Pearls' parenting approach.

 

As to the wife swap, I'd just say no. I wouldn't expect it to turn into an argument.

 

I know, I know :lol:

I was just just trying to think of some situation where I just wouldn't pass the bean dip or be polite, I'd have to be very direct and go my separate ways.

[Melinda in VT]

I know, I know :lol:

I was just just trying to think of some situation where I just wouldn't pass the bean dip or be polite, I'd have to be very direct and go my separate ways.

 

Direct I get.

 

But I wouldn't (and haven't) abandoned friendships over swinging or polyamory. But I guess that's a different discussion.

 

I wasn't there, so I can't really comment what I would have done in Heather's place. I think I would have been compelled to say something, but I would have tried to keep it gentle. However, depending on the other couple's response, I could have seen me in an argument.

 

And although I have some pretty significant live-and-let-live going on in my friendships, I don't know if I could be close friends who someone who thought the Pearls' book was one of her three most favorite books. (Seriously!?! Out of all the books in the world?)

[Jen500]

 

And although I have some pretty significant live-and-let-live going on in my friendships, I don't know if I could be close friends who someone who thought the Pearls' book was one of her three most favorite books. (Seriously!?! Out of all the books in the world?)

 

Ok, I can agree with you on this! :)

[Jean in Newcastle]

And although I have some pretty significant live-and-let-live going on in my friendships, I don't know if I could be close friends who someone who thought the Pearls' book was one of her three most favorite books. (Seriously!?! Out of all the books in the world?)

 

But don't you think that would be a good question to ask before passing judgment? "What speaks to you in this book that you've put it so high on your list?" If you got an answer like Cin's about learning about boundaries and consistency then I wouldn't get my panties in a twist. I might say "If you found reading about consistency helpful, here's another book that might interest you. . ." Now if they answered "It's my favorite book because I worship everything that the Pearl's say and am absolutely devoted to using a plumbing supply line on my baby", then I would be more direct in saying that "I have serious problems with that book and think that it has been used by some to promote child abuse."

 

Personally, I'm a fan of objective discourse. It isn't objective to canonize the authors or the book but it isn't objective to condemn every single person who has ever picked it up or found anything helpful in it either. You might not like whole sections of the book and may have legitimately decided that you can find better books that teach about consistency, boundaries or relationships (which the book does address in addition to discipline). But it is a gross generalization to say that the book has become popular with some because they are all child abusers at heart.

 

P.S. - I'm often given books on topics related to child training etc. to review. I've read the books and do have problems with them. But as a reviewer I've had to look at them objectively so that I can do a good job. I have not recommended the books to others to read, btw but I have felt that some of the reactions on this board have been over the top.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Jean in Newcastle

[BlsdMama]

My thoughts, as someone who has read all of the Pearl books, and NEVER spanked a baby, is that you may have missed out on a relationship but you most certainly missed out on an opportunity to get them thinking about how and why they parent.

 

You see, just like with most things, there are some nuggets of wisdom in those books. (Gasp!) I know an awful lot of people who "attach" parent and use the label madras of the word permissive. ;) I also know MANY families who have owned and read the Pearl books and do not believe in baby spanking. Goodness! I have owned the books and yet we do not, not do we believe in crying it out, parent led nursing for infants, our little ones all co-slept and were worn in carriers instead of pushed in strollers.

 

It always is a problem when you put someone in a box and assume you know "that" type. :( Moreover I am floored you so offended guests you had invited into your home that you know nothing about except that they liked the book. I am so grateful that my friends didn't assume they knew how I parent our who I am because I own that book... Along with Dr. Sears, Pantley, and Romm.

 

And you have lost ANY opportunity to influence her to understand what you hated about the book. :(

[melissel]

Moreover I am floored you so offended guests you had invited into your home that you know nothing about except that they liked the book.

 

Heather never said that she told them to get out as soon as they mentioned the book. We have no idea what was said in between "This book is in our top 3!" and "It got ugly and they left."

 

I am so grateful that my friends didn't assume they knew how I parent our who I am because I own that book... Along with Dr. Sears, Pantley, and Romm.

 

IMO, there are nuggets of wisdom in just about every parenting book...which is why I would never choose to own one that also advocated such misguided and abusive methods. There are SO MANY other options that didn't sicken me when read them. I was happy to get my parenting advice elsewhere.

[Heather in Neverland]

Wow. Well, it seems like I am being accused of all manner of things in this thread so allow me to clear the air a little.

 

By "new" couple, I meant this is their first year here but I have known them in a work setting since July.

 

And no, I didn't kick them out the moment they said the word "Pearl". Please, I was raised in a southern home. I have more hospitality then that!

 

We were discussing a different book then they brought up TTUAC. I didn't attack them. I wasn't aggressive. I wouldn't even say I was terribly outspoken about it. I merely said something about many of the teachings in that book being disturbing to me.

 

THEY went on the defensive. THEY got riled up and started hurling accusations. At that point I stepped up onto my soapbox and told them what I really think.

 

My dh forcefully changed the subject, we all finished dinner with some light conversation and they left. I doubt they would come back even if I invited them (which I doubt I will).

 

Hopefully that clears things up. Now I know many of you disagree with what I did but I DO NOT feel every person you meet is a good person to bring into your life. There are many people I choose not to associate with because they make choices that make me uncomfortable. I keep my own brother at arms length because of his alcohol abuse, drug abuse, and spousal abuse.

 

You might think it is close-minded of me. I call it discernment.

 

.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You might think it is close-minded of me. I call it discernment.

 

.

 

Heather, as you can see from my previous post (I think it was in this thread and not the spin-off one) that you handled it much like I would have. I realized that the OP didn't have much content in it so I tried to be general in my comments in a "if they said a, I would have said b" and "if they said c, I would have said d" sort of a way. I'm sorry that you suffered a verbal attack when you were being hospitable to them in your home. :grouphug:

[Researcher]

Sticking up for your values on such a critical subject is way more important than "making nice."

 

Good for you!

 

:iagree: