Is there a Christian denom that believes this?

[shinyhappypeople]

Yeah, it's me and my seemingly never ending church issues/questions.

 

I was thinking maybe evangelicalism just isn't a good fit for where I'm at spiritually. If I list the main points of where I'm at theologically and doctrinally, will you help me figure out a denomination that might fit? It doesn't haven't to be a perfect fit.

 

OK, here we go:

 

(1) Trinitarian, full divinity and humanity of Jesus. (non-negotiable)

 

(2) Uses the Bible but doesn't worship it or equate it with Jesus. In other words, doesn't call it God's Word-capital-W (which, IMO, belongs only to Jesus, according to Scripture). God's word(s)-lower-case-w is fine. This may be a picky thing, but it bugs me.

 

(3) I hold an OE Creationist point of view, and would prefer a denom that is open to a variety of perspectives on this issue.

 

(4) I'm not sure about hell, and I'm not sure that it's as black-and-white as I've been raised to believe. ("Accept Jesus" and you go go heaven. Don't accept Jesus - for any reason at all, incl. having never heard - and you're going to hell. ) I just think it's more complex than that, because condemning someone to hell who has never heard is neither merciful nor is it just. And yet both mercy and justice are attributes of God. So, as far as church goes, I would like to be a part of a faith community that at least acknowledges the gray area, kwim?

 

(5) Not heavily authoritarian. I won't believe anything just because the pastor/bishop/whoever's in charge tells me so.

 

(6) Liturgical. Weekly (or at least frequent) communion. I want to feel more tied to the generations of Christians who have gone before me. I don't need everything new and contemporary and shiny. (This preference is totally optional, but I just think it would be a nice bonus)

 

(7) Doesn't major on the minors. There are *so many* nitpicky areas that we could debate about. I don't want a church that tries to dictate every belief, even in areas that I believe are non-essential.

 

Does a denomination like this even exist? FWIW, it doesn't have to fit every point.

[Ellie]

The Catholic Church. :D

[Unicorn.]

Methodist maybe, except communion is once a month.

[Mandy in TN]

I was thinking Lutheran?

Mandy

 

(ELCA)

Edited November 21, 2011 by Mandy in TN

[justamouse]

Catholicism. :D I know, sounds like an oxymoron, right?

 

We have the tree legged stool of the church, tradition and the scriptures. No B.

 

And, though there is that Pope guy, he's not Infallible like he never makes a mistake (he goes to confession, too), but when speaking on doctrine, with the counsel of his bishops, from the Seat of Peter, he's infallible. Meaning, he won't say Jesus wasn't really man, or Jesus wasn't really God. ;) There's room to journey with grace in the RCC. You can take your time in coming to believe certain things.

 

Our first Pope was Peter. So it's about 2000 years old. And Mass centers around communion. It's all about Communion.

Edited November 21, 2011 by justamouse

[Brigitte]

The Catholic Church. :D

 

:iagree:

[Avila]

I think Catholic fits on 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6.

 

On 5, we do have the catechism, the bishops and the Pope. But you are allowed the time and grace to wrestle with the big ideas and there are plenty of resources out there to help with that. It isn't a blind faith, and you don't have to accept things without thinking them through.

 

On 7, I think that depends on exactly which issues you are thinking of. We give a wide berth on lots of things, but there are non-negotiables too.

 

If you are at all interested, we have the Crossing the Tiber social group where you can ask some questions and look at some of the issues. Becoming Catholic involves classes locally at your parish, and that is usually a 9-month long process where you also work through things with people doing the same thing, with no pressure. Many people start the process, and for whatever reason, don't "finish" it by joining the Church that year.

 

May God bless your in your journey.

[Jan in SC]

ELCA (Lutheran) or Episcopal

[ktgrok]

Episcopal. Fits every single requirement you have.

[Parrothead]

The Catholic Church meets your listed requirements. To be fair, so does the Eastern Orthodox church.

 

Each has a social group for answering questions of those interested.

[8circles]

My denomination fits the biggies here but some of the others would depend on specific congregations.

 

Yeah, it's me and my seemingly never ending church issues/questions.

 

I was thinking maybe evangelicalism just isn't a good fit for where I'm at spiritually. If I list the main points of where I'm at theologically and doctrinally, will you help me figure out a denomination that might fit? It doesn't haven't to be a perfect fit.

 

OK, here we go:

 

(1) Trinitarian, full divinity and humanity of Jesus. (non-negotiable) check

 

(2) Uses the Bible but doesn't worship it or equate it with Jesus. In other words, doesn't call it God's Word-capital-W (which, IMO, belongs only to Jesus, according to Scripture). God's word(s)-lower-case-w is fine. This may be a picky thing, but it bugs me. Hmmm. We don't worship the Bible by any stretch. But I'm pretty sure its God's Word.

 

(3) I hold an OE Creationist point of view, and would prefer a denom that is open to a variety of perspectives on this issue. check

 

(4) I'm not sure about hell, and I'm not sure that it's as black-and-white as I've been raised to believe. ("Accept Jesus" and you go go heaven. Don't accept Jesus - for any reason at all, incl. having never heard - and you're going to hell. ) I just think it's more complex than that, because condemning someone to hell who has never heard is neither merciful nor is it just. And yet both mercy and justice are attributes of God. So, as far as church goes, I would like to be a part of a faith community that at least acknowledges the gray area, kwim? check

 

(5) Not heavily authoritarian. I won't believe anything just because the pastor/bishop/whoever's in charge tells me so. check

 

(6) Liturgical. Weekly (or at least frequent) communion. I want to feel more tied to the generations of Christians who have gone before me. I don't need everything new and contemporary and shiny. (This preference is totally optional, but I just think it would be a nice bonus) This will vary by congregation - I believe most congregations choose to have communion monthly. Worship style will also vary by congregation. I prefer more liturgical & traditional.

 

(7) Doesn't major on the minors. There are *so many* nitpicky areas that we could debate about. I don't want a church that tries to dictate every belief, even in areas that I believe are non-essential. check. This is kind-of what the denomination is about in many ways, IMO.

 

Does a denomination like this even exist? FWIW, it doesn't have to fit every point.

Evangelical Covenant Church. Don't let the name scare you. Evangelical doesn't always mean the same thing anymore. HTH. :grouphug:

[AlmiraGulch]

Having been raised a Catholic (although I'm not one now), I was also going to say Catholicism.

[Plagefille]

I think you should check out the LDS (mormon) church. It will explain number 4 particularly well.

[Xuzi]

I think you should check out the LDS (mormon) church. It will explain number 4 particularly well.

Except for #1 on her list (which she also states is "non negotiable") isn't within LDS beliefs, as we believe in a Godhead (3 Persons working in complete unison to fulfill the Father's ultimate plan) rather than a Trinity.

 

ETA: But I agree with you that LDS beliefs fulfill #4 quite well. EVERYONE will get a chance at hearing the Gospel and either accepting or rejecting (and even those who reject won't necessarily be comdened to Eternal Torment). It's what our Temple work is all about.

[J-rap]

We've been looking for a similar church! :)

 

We attend a Baptist church right now that is very welcoming to minor differences -- not open about the non-negotiables of course (although I know that even those are negotiable). People from many denominations attend it.

 

Whenever we visit the closest metropolitan area, we attend a different church that is probably the closest we have found to what we believe. They are loosely part of a larger umbrella organization called ARC. Perhaps you can check them out and see if there is an ARC church in your area:

 

http://www.arcchurches.com/find_a_church/

[Caitilin]

Orthodox, Catholic, Episcopalians, some Lutherans. IOW, the "older" churches, tend to meet your requirements. :grouphug:

[GWOB]

Either the Catholic Church or the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of/in America). I'll try to explain the ELCA points below. We attend an LCMS (Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod) church, so I'm not 100% sure about the ELCA views, but I'll try.

 

Yeah, it's me and my seemingly never ending church issues/questions.

 

I was thinking maybe evangelicalism just isn't a good fit for where I'm at spiritually. While the ELCA has "evangelical" in their name, they as not associated with the evangelical movement.If I list the main points of where I'm at theologically and doctrinally, will you help me figure out a denomination that might fit? It doesn't haven't to be a perfect fit.

 

OK, here we go:

 

(1) Trinitarian, full divinity and humanity of Jesus. (non-negotiable)Yes

 

(2) Uses the Bible but doesn't worship it or equate it with Jesus. In other words, doesn't call it God's Word-capital-W (which, IMO, belongs only to Jesus, according to Scripture). God's word(s)-lower-case-w is fine. This may be a picky thing, but it bugs me. Here is what the ELCA believes about the Bible. They do capitalize Word, but you would have to look over their beliefs and decide. I have an idea of what you are talking about, but I'm not exactly sure, so I'll just be quiet on this one.

 

(3) I hold an OE Creationist point of view, and would prefer a denom that is open to a variety of perspectives on this issue. ELCA is pretty open about this one.

 

(4) I'm not sure about hell, and I'm not sure that it's as black-and-white as I've been raised to believe. ("Accept Jesus" and you go go heaven. Don't accept Jesus - for any reason at all, incl. having never heard - and you're going to hell. ) I just think it's more complex than that, because condemning someone to hell who has never heard is neither merciful nor is it just. And yet both mercy and justice are attributes of God. So, as far as church goes, I would like to be a part of a faith community that at least acknowledges the gray area, kwim? ELCA and LCMS both acknowledge gray areas. I *think* the RCC does a pretty good job of accepting mysteries. (I hope I did the RCC justice there)

 

(5) Not heavily authoritarian. I won't believe anything just because the pastor/bishop/whoever's in charge tells me so. The one thing I really, really like about Lutheran churches is that, while there is a hierarchy (and therefore accountability), no pastor is an island. They have a hard time "going rogue."

 

(6) Liturgical. Weekly (or at least frequent) communion. I want to feel more tied to the generations of Christians who have gone before me. I don't need everything new and contemporary and shiny. (This preference is totally optional, but I just think it would be a nice bonus) ELCA is definitely liturgical, though there will be more contemporary services. LCMS is very liturgical.

 

(7) Doesn't major on the minors. There are *so many* nitpicky areas that we could debate about. I don't want a church that tries to dictate every belief, even in areas that I believe are non-essential. Yep

 

Does a denomination like this even exist? FWIW, it doesn't have to fit every point.

 

 

One other note. The ELCA is generally considered the more "liberal" synod of the Lutheran church, while the LCMS is more moderate-to-conservative. Even though I am a little left-of-center, I still feel comfortable in the LCMS.

 

HTH

[Jennay]

Come join the "Exploring Orthodox Christianity" social group. :)

[heartosunshine]

Eastern Orthodox Church

:)

[Parker Martin]

You described our non-denominational, evangelical church perfectly. (ETA: Except for the liturgical part. Communion is offered at every service though. I suppose there is a sort of loose liturgy or order to the service but nothing like you'd find in Catholic, Orthodox, or Episcopal services.)

 

I think what you've described comes down more to the individual church than to the denomination.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Parker Martin

[AK_Mom4]

ELCA (Lutheran) or Episcopal

:iagree:

 

Sounds Episcopal to me.

[MeganW]

Episcopal! You aren't just "allowed", you are encouraged to wrestle with issues and figure it out for yourself. Warning - it is a great church to really work and grow, and you have room for a lot of growth in a way that is harder in some of the other denominations, but it is also very easy to just sit and warm the pew if you prefer. Nobody will call you out if you miss a few Sundays, or look down on you if you admit that you don't "do" Bible studies. They just aren't into guilt in that way. If you need that kind of accountability, you may not get as much out of that type of environment.

[simka2]

Eastern Orthodox Church

:)

 

:iagree: It meets every one. Also if you have any questions please feel free to ask us converts...we have definitively had to wrestle through some of the more foreign concepts. :D

 

I love this Icon. Icons in EO teach. This one takes place after Jesus dies and he is conquering death and the grave. Look carefully at His hands and how he is holding on to Adam and Eve (the first victims of death).

[nono]

Orthodox, Catholic, Episcopalians, some Lutherans. IOW, the "older" churches, tend to meet your requirements. :grouphug:

 

Yep.:001_smile:

[Emmy]

I'm surprised how many people are commenting that the Catholic church fits the bill despite point #5.

[justamouse]

I'm surprised how many people are commenting that the Catholic church fits the bill despite point #5.

 

Because there are a lot of untruths spread about #5 and how the RCC works.

[Trresh]

So, what is the Catholic take on hell?

[TravelingChris]

Presbyterian church I belong to fits except the communion is once a month. Also, we believe that the Bible is God's Word but since w all hav different interpretations of it, you aren't hit on the head with it. We do have various points of view- some of us are OE, some NE, some don't know, some are evolutionists, some not. There is one old man attending who even believes some completely off the wall things. He won't be called to be an elder but he is free to come.

 

I could also see Lutheran, Anglican, some Episcopalian, Methodist- all fitting. What I don't see fitting is Catholic because I see it as very authoritarian and not at all like I have seen in the Protestant churches I have attended over the years. (I was a Catholic until I was 22).

[Parrothead]

I'm surprised how many people are commenting that the Catholic church fits the bill despite point #5.

The Catholic church is not very legalistic.

[Parrothead]

Presbyterian church I belong to fits except the communion is once a month. Also, we believe that the Bible is God's Word but since w all hav different interpretations of it, you aren't hit on the head with it. We do have various points of view- some of us are OE, some NE, some don't know, some are evolutionists, some not. There is one old man attending who even believes some completely off the wall things. He won't be called to be an elder but he is free to come.

 

I could also see Lutheran, Anglican, some Episcopalian, Methodist- all fitting. What I don't see fitting is Catholic because I see it as very authoritarian and not at all like I have seen in the Protestant churches I have attended over the years. (I was a Catholic until I was 22).

I'm thinking this might be a YMMV thing. I've been Catholic for 45 years and never seen it as authoritarian. It is interesting that others think it is.

[Parrothead]

So, what is the Catholic take on hell?

That some will be going there. The Catholic Encyclopedia's entry on Hell.

 

Catholics don't often (today) put a lot of constraints on God. He can save anyone from Hell that he wants to. In the OPs first post, she specifically mentioned those that have never heard of God/Jesus. The Catholic Church does not teach that those people are going straight to Hell.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Parrothead

[Avila]

So, what is the Catholic take on hell?

 

Hell is real. God predestines no one to go to Hell; for this, a willful turning away from God is necessary, and persistence in it until the end (CCC1037). God does not want anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance.

 

The Catholic Church does not definitively say any specific person is in Hell. It is up to God, in his justice AND his mercy to ultimately decide that for each of us.

 

Catholics believe that mortal sin is what separates us from God, and ultimately separates us eternally. To commit a mortal sin, you must have a grave matter, full knowledge, and complete consent to it. It has to be something serious that you know full well to be a sin, and you have to deliberately choose to do it anyhow. There are a lot of variables there, and you cannot unintentionally commit a mortal sin or do so out of ignorance.

 

We believe that someone has to choose to reject God and live apart from him to go to Hell. People who have never had the opportunity in their earthly lives to know and follow Christ, or who were prevented for a myriad of reasons outside their control from doing this, will not be automatically condemned for it. There is room in the great mercy of God for their salvation. What we think of as the path to salvation is the ordinary means of it. But we serve an extraordinary God, who, in his mercy, can and does choose extraordinary means as well. No one is outside his mercy or his justice, and in end, we are all, regardless of our circumstances, dependent on his mercy.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Asenik

[simka2]

Sidetrack: Actually, the first victim of death was Abel. But I know what you mean. I think it is interesting though that death was what ensued when love (and therefore its fruit, obedience) failed. And that first *actual* death was at man's hand. Adam and Eve were the first to fall, and the first raised.

 

Yes, yes! That was what I meant :D

"Adam and Eve were the first to fall, and the first raised." This is such a beautiful image to me. I am not totally sure why, but I just love it!

[kokotg]

Disciples of Christ

 

or really most mainline Protestant denominations....except not weekly communion at all of them (Methodist, United Church of Christ...not sure about others)

[Wolfmeis]

I was thinking Lutheran?

Mandy

 

(ELCA)

 

 

You described the ELCA to a T.

[Teachin'Mine]

As others have said, the Catholic Church.

 

Does the Catholic Church have it in writing what they do believe? Yes. But the Church is very welcoming of anyone who is on a journey in search. You are not forced to believe anything, and when you honestly search and are open, your beliefs will probably change over time as the truth becomes more evident. It is a beautiful faith. :)

[silliness7]

http://www.pcusa.org/

 

You might try Presbyterian USA. They are an older mainline denomination which many think have gone quite liberal. I can imagine that they would be open to questions about hell and such that a more conservative denomination would not be but they would probably also have the liturgy you're looking for.

 

I think most older mainline denominations would meet your requirements. It's the splintered off younger ones that disagreed with the forward-thinking older ones and have become what is considered the back-bone of evangelicalism. But don't go with mainline Baptist. As far as I know Baptists are not liturgical but Methodists, Presbys, Anglicans, Lutheran sound like a good fit.

 

So much depends on individual congregations and leadership so definitely ask around, visit with the pastor/priest privately and ask your questions, and visit a service.

[shinyhappypeople]

Wow! This is fantastic! Thanks for all the thoughtful replies :) Looks like I have some googling to do...

 

Please keep the comments coming. This is very helpful :)

[Ellie]

I'm surprised how many people are commenting that the Catholic church fits the bill despite point #5.

As a convert, I have yet to see the Catholic Church being authoritarian. No one is expected to believe anything just because the pastor/bishop/whoever's in charge tells her so.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Ellie

[Frenchie]

The Catholic Church. :D

 

:iagree: My husband is Catholic and the Church has moved much further away from the authoritarian views they once took on many issues. I've also found it varies tremendously from church to church. We go to Catholic mass and Christian services (I'm evangelical), and I've always loved the mystic sense of community I feel at Catholic mass, like I'm a part of something outside time and space. DH says the Church is "everywhere and everywhen". I like that, and I like the idea of the Communion of Saints.

 

Best of luck in your search.

[Ellie]

:iagree: My husband is Catholic and the Church has moved much further away from the authoritarian views they once took on many issues. I've also found it varies tremendously from church to church. We go to Catholic mass and Christian services (I'm evangelical), and I've always loved the mystic sense of community I feel at Catholic mass, like I'm a part of something outside time and space. DH says the Church is "everywhere and everywhen". I like that, and I like the idea of the Communion of Saints.

 

Best of luck in your search.

Catholic doctrine has not changed. Which "authoritarian views" are you thinking of?:)

[Joanne]

Presbyterian USA would fit for most and the PCUSA would be very accomodating in terms of departures.

[Frenchie]

Catholic doctrine has not changed. Which "authoritarian views" are you thinking of?:)

 

Sorry. Posted in haste. Poor wording. I'm not an expert on the Catholic Church but was under the impression that Canon law has become much more lax lately and the Church was beginning to look less authoritarian in their stances on certain issues. I know, at least, in my church, different priests have, over the years, come out with very different views on, say, abortion and evolution among other things. Of course, this could just be a reflection of my area and not the Church.

[QueenCat]

United Methodist Church.... meets all of your points except we only have communion once a month and on certain special days.

[Carol in Cal.]

I strongly suggest that you look for a church in the Anglican Communion of North America. It is EXACTLY what you are talking about. Exactly. Closer than any previous suggestion.

 

(I am not ACNA, but am very familiar with them.)

[LittleIzumi]

Except for #1 on her list (which she also states is "non negotiable") isn't within LDS beliefs, as we believe in a Godhead (3 Persons working in complete unison to fulfill the Father's ultimate plan) rather than a Trinity.

 

ETA: But I agree with you that LDS beliefs fulfill #4 quite well. EVERYONE will get a chance at hearing the Gospel and either accepting or rejecting (and even those who reject won't necessarily be comdened to Eternal Torment). It's what our Temple work is all about.

 

:iagree: We believe that Jesus was fully divine and also Mary's biological son, just not quite in the Trinity viewpoint (a god in his own right, literally the Son of God). Everything else fits perfectly! :D

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Episcopal. Fits every single requirement you have.

 

:iagree::D

[2_girls_mommy]

United Methodist.

 

Communion is up to each congregation. Some will have it more often than others. Ours is always twice a month. Sometimes more for special occasions during the church year.

Edited November 21, 2011 by 2_girls_mommy
ETA,,, forgot the united

[Parrothead]

Sorry. Posted in haste. Poor wording. I'm not an expert on the Catholic Church but was under the impression that Canon law has become much more lax lately and the Church was beginning to look less authoritarian in their stances on certain issues. I know, at least, in my church, different priests have, over the years, come out with very different views on, say, abortion and evolution among other things. Of course, this could just be a reflection of my area and not the Church.

I get what you are saying. I think if you really think about it though it is society at large that has become somewhat lax. In the US at least there is no longer a "Father knows best" society. And this reflects in the way people express their views.

 

Canon Law has not changed though. Neither has church doctrine nor the teachings of the church.

 

Thirty or 40 years ago you would not have priests speaking their minds on the issues you mentioned above and others. And as evolution is not a salvation issue it does not matter one whit what a priest's personal views are. Now abortion on the other hand, that is a different matter. The church is clear on its stance on abortion. Any priest teaching differently should be reported to his bishop.

[TravelingChris]

Yes, the Presbyterian Church I am now a member of is PCUSA though not as liberal as the General Assembly. I wouldn't even call our particular church liberal at all but it is more tolerant of differing views on non fundamentals then some churches are. I have always chosen churches that have flexibility on the non major issues and those churches have been PCUSA, PCA, PC Cumberland, EPC, and United Methodist. But a lot of times it depends on the specific church.

 

Some of the things that made me specifically feel like part of the church universal are- in one church, we had a number of refugees and asylum seekers attending along with people from other countries, in our current church, we have a Korean Presbyterian congregation that meets here too and once a month we have a combined English/Korean service. The music director chooses songs that have both English and Korean words and so we all sing, some in Korean and some in English.