Is this reasonable?

[Penny_P]

My aunt had a doctor's appointment in town two days ago. I offered to let her spend the night at our house and invited my uncle for dinner as well. My husband gave her the "grand tour" of the house and made sure to tell her to watch her step in the front area where our living room steps down about 5 inches. Later as we were saying our good-byes to Uncle, she somehow mis-steps and twists as she fell into the room. The majority of the fall was on her behind, but as she fell back she hit her head VERY hard on a side table. She takes large doses of naproxen and there was a fair amount of bleeding. I am a nurse- I applied pressure to the 1/3 inch laceration on the back of her head, put her on the couch and observed her for any signs of trauma. There were none. Before she was off the ground she had asked dh what our insurance deductible was (it is $1000). The next day she appeared to be fine as I walked her to her car. I had even gotten all of the blood out of her clothes.

 

Apparently on the way home, about 3 hours away, she decided to stop at a hospital since she felt an "indentation" on the back of her head. They did a ct scan which was negative. Today I got a call from her strongly insisting and expecting that we pay for her emergency bills. She says that she wouldn't have fallen if that dangerous step wasn't there.

 

A brief background: Aunt is bipolar and definitely has swings in her functioning ability. She has been on a very limited fixed income for years- she does receive state insurance, but stated that whatever is not covered will be a burden for her to pay.

 

What say the hive? Reasonable to pay this or not?

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think you had a red flag when she first asked about the deductible (which would have never ever even occurred to me to ask about). The fact is, she did fall and she did go to the ER. I sort of doubt that she would have gone to the ER to be checked out if she hadn't expected you to pay for it but technically I think you're on the hook because it was your property.

[Penny_P]

I am so hurt by this. My husband and I work hard and pinch pennies (hence my name on the boards) in order to keep me from working more than one night a week. I think my family thinks we have deep pockets or something, but I cut coupons and shop at thrift stores, etc. I know she struggles with money, but I feel her request is unreasonable, especially how it was brought up in conversation. Our conversation ended poorly, of course. She wanted to stay at our house again on the 30th for another doctor's appointment. DH of course says "no way." My family is so messed up. I am so grateful for my in-laws.

[annandatje]

I think you need to contact your homeowner's liability insurance agent and possibly an attorney. Does she have a litigious history?

[Scuff]

It's a 5" step? That doesn't seem out of the ordinary. I would say your property, your responsibility. But it seems that the ER visit was highly unnecessary and the house, safe.

[Penny_P]

I think you had a red flag when she first asked about the deductible (which would have never ever even occurred to me to ask about). The fact is, she did fall and she did go to the ER. I sort of doubt that she would have gone to the ER to be checked out if she hadn't expected you to pay for it but technically I think you're on the hook because it was your property.

 

DH actually called the insurance company. We're only at fault if the person isn't warned and the condition is reasonably dangerous or something like that. The insurance agent says if she tried to sue us she would most definitely lose and be on the hook for our attorney's fees.

[ashfern]

It was an accident that happened on your property. I would ask her to forward the bills on to you. What did she tell the ER when she went? Most of the time they ask if your injury was caused by an accident. You may have to submit it to your homeowner's insurance.

[Mrs Mungo]

Call your insurance company. *Generally*, if you give a warning, then you are not actually liable.

 

http://www.personalinjurylawyer.com/resources/personal-injury/slip-fall-accident/slip-fall-cases-homeowner-liability.htm

 

Ultimately though, it's not up to you whether or not the insurance company will pay. The insurance company will likely fight it with lawyers since you warned her about the hazard. I hope she realizes that and it doesn't cause trouble between you. :grouphug:

[Penny_P]

I think you need to contact your homeowner's liability insurance agent and possibly an attorney. Does she have a litigious history?

 

DH IS an attorney, and was freaking out all night after her asking about the deductible. No litigious history that I'm aware of.

[Alte Veste Academy]

DH actually called the insurance company. We're only at fault if the person isn't warned and the condition is reasonably dangerous or something like that. The insurance agent says if she tried to sue us she would most definitely lose and be on the hook for our attorney's fees.

 

If that's the case, then I would not pay. She sounds really ornery though.

[Grover]

She knew about the step and it's not like it shouldn't be there (like an unfenced drop of a balcony or something). She was asking about insurance straight away, didn't ask to be taken to the ER until she was away from you and, as a health care professional you were satisfied she was ok? She chose to go herself - you didn't suggest it? hmm. I'd say tell her to go fish. If I did decide to pay it I'd DEFINITELY need to see paperwork / invoice from the hospital. Not saying your Aunt is dodgy but, yeah, I'd smell a rat. Suggest she get her lawyer to talk to yours so you can both be sure it's all dealt with properly and neither of you is left with liability you didn't forsee... and watch her back pedal.

[IsabelC]

I don't think you are obliged to pay. You did everything a normal, reasonable, kind person would do. If you can afford to pay and decide to do so to be generous, fine. But definitely you shouldn't feel as though you have to.

[Robin M]

Yes, you warned her about the step, but I don't think she deliberately tripped and hurt herself. Accidents do happen. I would just take care of it and be done with it.

[tmulcahy]

I hate this for you. I hate that there is no personal accountability anymore. Good greif...if I fell in someone else's house I would attribute it to my own clumbsiness and not blame it one anyone but myself. Sad to say that you are probably responsible. Same kind of situation as when a courtroom found McDonald's responsible for a woman spilling hot coffee in her lap.

[Carpe]

I'd tell her that you cannot afford it any more than she can. She was adequately warned, and, as a nurse, you felt she was fine. A second opinion is always valuable, but a ct scan was a bit excessive, and certainly outside your budget.

 

You could even tell her that you contacted your home owner's insurance and that they wouldn't pay either, if you thought she might sue.

 

I agree with your DH, I wouldn't let her stay there again either.

 

If you're feeling generous you could offer to pay some amount towards the bill.

[Penny_P]

DH had originally thought to give her $100 towards her bills, but the insurance company thought that might look like an admission of guilt if it were to go to court. If I fell at someone's house I would NEVER consider suing them, especially if it was someone I liked, like my neice.

[Carpe]

Same kind of situation as when a courtroom found McDonald's responsible for a woman spilling hot coffee in her lap.

 

That woman received 3rd degree burns from overheated coffee in a cup with an improperly fitted lid. It was a perfectly reasonable suit IMO.

[tmulcahy]

If I fell at someone's house I would NEVER consider suing them, especially if it was someone I liked, like my neice.

 

 

Unless she pushed me;)

[Word Nerd]

Same kind of situation as when a courtroom found McDonald's responsible for a woman spilling hot coffee in her lap.

 

No, it isn't.

Know the Facts: The McDonald's Coffee Case

 

 

(I voted No in the poll.)

Edited September 15, 2011 by WordGirl

[tmulcahy]

NM

Edited September 15, 2011 by tmulcahy
NM

[Tangerine]

My best friend has a sunken living room. I have, from the first time I walked in that house, believed that someday I would fall into it. It would never occur to me that she would be responsible if I did.

[justasque]

Do you think she is one of those people who think insurance payouts are "free money", and that you wouldn't be paying, your insurance company would? Just a thought that might explain her bizarre attitude.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Sounds like hypochondria.

[LaxMom]

I would think a step (which had been pointed out) is a reasonable part of q house. If you had a hole in your floor and threw a rug over it, I can see expecting some sort of assistance. A misstep is a misstep and can happen on any surface, anywhere.

 

And I would be leery of her not being covered. She fell down. What's not to cover? Does she need precertification for ER visits? Scans? If that's the case, she needed to call for approval, or the ER did. That is not on you.

[wapiti]

I'd let her medical insurance duke it out with your homeowner's insurance, which is what may happen anyway.

 

If she's asking for her out of pocket costs, she ought to have mentioned what her ER copay or deductible is.

[praisefor3]

I am a generous, compassionate person who accepts responsibility. I absolutely would not pay this. If you step off a curb at a store, it is not the store's fault unless there was negligent care of the property. When you have an accident, you take care of your own accident unless someone is truly at fault. Sympathize, respond lovingly, but firmly tell her that you will not be paying for her accident.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I voted other, because I don't think it's reasonable for you to have to pay according to the details of the situation. However, if you have the money and you want to avoid further problems with her, pay it and get it over with. Then never let her in your house again.

[Impish]

I wouldn't pay diddly. Heaven knows what other issues might come up if you pay once :glare:

[Denisemomof4]

if she receives state insurance AND she's on disability (is this the very limited, fixed income?) then I'll bet most of her bill will be covered. Even if it's not, she can pay what she can, even if only $5 per month. That's what my brother does.

 

How do you feel about paying half?

 

I, personally, am very glad she went to the ER. You said she hit her head "very hard" and was bleeding very bad. The blood thinners could have caused a severe brain bleed, too. I'm glad she had that checked out.

 

I'm the brain injury specialist due to my NUMEROUS blows to the head, so I just don't fool around with this stuff.

 

My advice? Spend more time with your inlaws.:tongue_smilie:

[myfunnybunch]

Falls are accidents. You were not negligent, therefore you are not financially responsible.

 

She was warned. You are not legally liable. You are a nurse and provided attention to her injury. She seemed fine when she left your house. *She* decided to stop at the ER.

 

I think, in your shoes, if I could afford it, I might offer to pitch in a part of the cost out of kindness. But I'd kindly make it crystal clear that it is a kindness on my part with the intent to help, and not an obligation.

 

Cat

[elegantlion]

Apparently on the way home, about 3 hours away, she decided to stop at a hospital since she felt an "indentation" on the back of her head. They did a ct scan which was negative. Today I got a call from her strongly insisting and expecting that we pay for her emergency bills. She says that she wouldn't have fallen if that dangerous step wasn't there.

 

A brief background: Aunt is bipolar and definitely has swings in her functioning ability. She has been on a very limited fixed income for years- she does receive state insurance, but stated that whatever is not covered will be a burden for her to pay.

 

What say the hive? Reasonable to pay this or not?

 

I would probably broach this subject with her in a few days, or let your insurance company hash it out. My dh was freaked out for days after his head injury, because of the injury itself, and the unknown of the long term consequences, which there have been. A cat scan was reassuring to him.

 

 

I, personally, am very glad she went to the ER. You said she hit her head "very hard" and was bleeding very bad. The blood thinners could have caused a severe brain bleed, too. I'm glad she had that checked out.

 

I'm the brain injury specialist due to my NUMEROUS blows to the head, so I just don't fool around with this stuff.

 

My advice? Spend more time with your inlaws.:tongue_smilie:

 

Thanks, Denise, I agree. My dh had a head injury in 2009, I'm glad he had a cat scan. Head injuries can be scary. I'm not the kind of person to run to the ER, but I would insist head injuries be checked out due to my limited experience.

 

I'm kind of surprised you didn't insist she have it checked out further, especially because of the hard hit, laceration, and her medication.

[iamrachelle]

I'd tell her that you cannot afford it any more than she can. She was adequately warned, and, as a nurse, you felt she was fine. A second opinion is always valuable, but a ct scan was a bit excessive, and certainly outside your budget.

 

You could even tell her that you contacted your home owner's insurance and that they wouldn't pay either, if you thought she might sue.

 

I agree with your DH, I wouldn't let her stay there again either.

 

If you're feeling generous you could offer to pay some amount towards the bill.

 

:iagree:

[Pink and Green Mom]

We had something similar happen, and it was so stressful:grouphug:. We were selling our house and had a 5" step from the living room to the family room. During an open house, someone tripped. She sent both us and our realtor a nasty threatening letter within 24 hours, saying that her carpal tunnel syndrome was "re-activated" because she had to stop her fall with her hands, and she didn't know if she would be able to continue working because our house had a "pre-existing dangerous condition." Our homeowners insurance laughed when we told them, saying we had no idea how common this was. They told us that in situations like this it was common for the insurance company to give said person $100 or something like that. Our homeowners insurance dealt with the entire thing, I honestly have no idea what ever came of it. I would let her insurance contact yours and take myself out of it.

 

I would not have your aunt stay at your house again, either. No way. I also would be very leary of paying her anything, wondering what "ailment" would befall her next week as a result of her misstep.

 

I'm so sorry you have to deal with this.

[Sahamamama]

DH IS an attorney, and was freaking out all night after her asking about the deductible. No litigious history that I'm aware of.

 

This is what would clinch it for us. I just asked my husband and he said, "She's asking before she's off the floor?" No way.

 

Hope it all works out for you, but don't feel guilty about this. It was an accident. Accidents do happen.

[amyco]

This was my thought as well. Who knows what other accident related bill she'll come up with down the road if you start paying her now?

[Alte Veste Academy]

I would let her insurance contact yours and take myself out of it.

 

This is a truly spectacular idea! Be warm and sweet to her and pass along your insurance information.

[RoughCollie]

I hate this for you. I hate that there is no personal accountability anymore. Good greif...if I fell in someone else's house I would attribute it to my own clumbsiness and not blame it one anyone but myself. Sad to say that you are probably responsible. Same kind of situation as when a courtroom found McDonald's responsible for a woman spilling hot coffee in her lap.

 

No, it isn't like the McDonald's case. Read what happened in that case, here, because you are sadly misinformed. http://www.slip-and-sue.com/the-famous-infamous-mcdonalds-coffee-spill-lawsuit-revisited/

[tmulcahy]

No, it isn't like the McDonald's case. Read what happened in that case, here, because you are sadly misinformed. http://www.slip-and-sue.com/the-famous-infamous-mcdonalds-coffee-spill-lawsuit-revisited/

 

Yes, I have seen this. I still believe in personal responsibility. She put the cup between her legs and spilled it because she removed the lid and was attempting to fix her coffee in her lap. Coffee is supposed to be brewed at temperatures up to 205 degrees. Going through a drive through in the morning, I would assume my coffee was going to be hot...real hot. I feel bad for her but I believe it was her fault. I am informed and agree to disagree.

[Farrar]

As a couple of people have pointed out, it will most likely be mostly covered. I would try to take a deep breath and take a wait and see approach both with your decision and in your dealings with her.

[Garga]

I wouldn't offer to pay. However, if/when she sets something in motion legally, then you'll go thru the insurance and legal avenues to have it resolved. There are laws in place regarding accidents on other people's property. Those laws would come into play.

 

And I think it was perfectly reasonable for her to go to the ER. I'm surprised that you don't think so. Head injuries are serious.

[RanchGirl]

Be warm and sweet to her and pass along your insurance information.

 

:iagree: and maybe give her a gift card for dinner out when she is staying in a hotel for her next doctor visit in town... Don't let her stay at your house again.

[Trish]

Only read page one, so maybe someone else mentioned Natasha Richardson (head injury from skiing), but it seems reasonable to visit an emergency room after a fall like that. Nobody has deep pockets but someone has to pay. Sorry, I hope it works out!

[LND1218]

Yes, I have seen this. I still believe in personal responsibility. She put the cup between her legs and spilled it because she removed the lid and was attempting to fix her coffee in her lap. Coffee is supposed to be brewed at temperatures up to 205 degrees. Going through a drive through in the morning, I would assume my coffee was going to be hot...real hot. I feel bad for her but I believe it was her fault. I am informed and agree to disagree.

 

:iagree: While the situations are different, I agree that both come down to personal responsibility. She spilled it. It's tragic, but I just don't how it's McDonald's fault.

 

The aunt tripped - that was her fault.

 

It's like the people who sued Kellogg because their unattended pop tart started a fire when they left the house for 10 minutes.

[StephanieZ]

I voted No. It is totally ridiculous for her to expect you to pay.

 

Frankly, anyone who ever expected me to foot medical bills for any injury they occurred in my property would never be welcome in my home, or my life, ever again.

 

Exceptions for if I had a viscous animal that I didn't keep confined, or if we AGREED for them to make a claim for some SERIOUS injury in order to help them out and let our insurance cover it. (I.e., $50k injury and they are uninsured . . . I'd eat the increased insurance costs as an act of kindness.)

 

In general, I think folks need to take responsibility for living in the world. It ticks me off when everyone is looking to make someone else culpable for the normal accidents and injuries that are part of life.

 

If you decide to pay, I'd NEVER allow her in your home, or car, or anywhere else near you EVER again. In fact, just since she expected/asked, I'd never have her over again, but I'd be nicer about it, and try to avoid telling her she was unwelcome, and I'd still be civil to her in OTHER places, but no way in my house!

[Guest submarines]

I voted No. It is totally ridiculous for her to expect you to pay.

 

Frankly, anyone who ever expected me to foot medical bills for any injury they occurred in my property would never be welcome in my home, or my life, ever again.

 

Exceptions for if I had a viscous animal that I didn't keep confined, or if we AGREED for them to make a claim for some SERIOUS injury in order to help them out and let our insurance cover it. (I.e., $50k injury and they are uninsured . . . I'd eat the increased insurance costs as an act of kindness.)

 

In general, I think folks need to take responsibility for living in the world. It ticks me off when everyone is looking to make someone else culpable for the normal accidents and injuries that are part of life.

 

If you decide to pay, I'd NEVER allow her in your home, or car, or anywhere else near you EVER again. In fact, just since she expected/asked, I'd never have her over again, but I'd be nicer about it, and try to avoid telling her she was unwelcome, and I'd still be civil to her in OTHER places, but no way in my house!

 

 

Wild imagery here! :smilielol5:Not laughing at you, I'm the queen of typos, especially late at night, but that was a goooooooood one! Viscous animal! :confused::lol:

 

And I agree with your other points, btw.:)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Wild imagery here! :smilielol5:Not laughing at you, I'm the queen of typos, especially late at night, but that was a goooooooood one! Viscous animal! :confused::lol:

 

And I agree with your other points, btw.:)

 

Oh, I don't know. A viscous animal would be hard to confine - it would ooze out of a crate. . . :D

[Guest submarines]

Only read page one, so maybe someone else mentioned Natasha Richardson (head injury from skiing), but it seems reasonable to visit an emergency room after a fall like that. Nobody has deep pockets but someone has to pay. Sorry, I hope it works out!

 

It is reasonable to say something like this to the relative who is kindly offering her house to stay in: "I'm really scared and I'm not feeling right, and I need to check it out for my mental health. I don't think it is a fault of yours that I fell, it is certainly not. I'm sorry to have caused so much trouble by not watching my step. I can't afford the CT. Is there a way we can work it out?" And offer a repayment plan.

[Swirl]

DH actually called the insurance company. We're only at fault if the person isn't warned and the condition is reasonably dangerous or something like that. The insurance agent says if she tried to sue us she would most definitely lose and be on the hook for our attorney's fees.

 

I'm really surprised to hear this. Did your agent mention anything to your DH about your coverage for medical expenses? This is a basic part of most homeowner's policies. Do you have a copy of your policy?

 

Here's a link. Scroll down to medical payments insurance.

 

http://www.id.state.az.us/consumerhomefaq.html

 

ETA: Usually this limit is not much though. Typically under $5000.

 

Also, your $1000 deductible should not apply here. That usually applies only to a property claim.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Swirl

[Cera]

I absolutely wouldn't give her any money because it could look like an admission of guilt if she decides to sue you.

 

I also would never allow her into my home again.

 

At this point I think I would tell her that if she is adamant about my paying her bills she will need to forward me copies of any unpaid medical bills so that I could forward them on to my insurance company. I doubt in the situation she is in that her medical costs are not covered under a government insurance plan.

[Renee in NC]

I absolutely wouldn't give her any money because it could look like an admission of guilt if she decides to sue you.

 

I also would never allow her into my home again.

 

At this point I think I would tell her that if she is adamant about my paying her bills she will need to forward me copies of any unpaid medical bills so that I could forward them on to my insurance company. I doubt in the situation she is in that her medical costs are not covered under a government insurance plan.

 

It doesn't matter if she is covered by a gov't insurance plan because they will go after the OP for the costs. There is a legal term for it, but gov't medical plans are required by law to try and get someone else to pay the costs if the charges were incurred due to an accident.