"Most homeschool kids go back to ps 2 years behind"

[mom2scouts]

I find this interesting. It's common in my area for children to be homeschooled until high school. I can think of numerous students that I know personally who went from homeschooling to being at the top of their class in public school. I live in a university community and I think most parents who homeschool do so for academic and social reasons. Most parents also have college degrees.

[stripe]

Regarding those who say

"Even the worst day of homeschooling is better than the best day at a public school."

Snort. When I'm having those sorts of days, I just consider it a vacation day. And I make it up later.

 

My husband thought I should meet other homeschooling parents so I could "discuss curriculum with them." I had to let him in on unschooling. I don't think he's recovered. The local coop near me seems to be a social/sports group. There are others who do park/zoo outings and occasionally a play (as in theater). And there's another group that's sort of turned private school. Otherwise, that's what I use you ladies for -- to discuss curriculum.

[regentrude]

The ACT is a selective test. Not everybody takes it - the very behind kids who have no college aspirations certainly don't. So, not a good measure.

 

How does that statement line up with the ACT results according to this article? http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/hslda/200707310.asp

 

Do they somehow just catch up by the time they take the ACT? or is the ACT not assessing the areas that they are supposedly behind?

[ButterfliesandBooks]

My oldest dd went into school at 8 years old - she was there for 2 and a half years before being home schooled again. I really thought she would be 'behind' and the school tested her in english, math and science. Turns out she was 2 years ahead :D ...they also commented on how confident and hard working she was. We were unschooling at that point as well, so she'd never really done any formal sit down kind of work.

 

So, no, not all home schooled children go into school 'behind'. :)

[SeekingHim77]

I live in a small town and almost all of my inlaws work in the local school system. They have a very negative view of homeschooling because they only homeschoolers they see are the ones who have trouble or are in and out of school. Noone notices the homeschoolers that actually do well-just the ones that do poorly. Focusing on the negative is so much more popular than seeing the positive.

 

From my experience, it seems that homeschoolers might be behind a little in some areas when they are elementary age but that they then go on to catch up and surpass their peers as they get older. Many homeschoolers don't focus so much on things like spelling, grammar and writing when their kids are younger believing that it's easier to teach those subjects in a shorter time to an older child that can understand it more quickly. Many of use copywork and dictation exercises instead of creative writing in the younger years. We have used a mastery approach in our math studies which means my children might not know beginning fractions as early as others but at the same time, they are able to add up to the hundredth thousandth place while others might only be adding double digits.

 

I guess my point is that homeschoolers individualize their curriculum to fit each child and the public school cannot do that. As a result, homeschoolers may often be behind in some subjects but are often ahead in others-especially in the younger years.

 

This whole discussion requires a lot of generalizations. We're all basing our answers on the homeschoolers we know and that can change drastically from location to location or from home to home, for that matter. Each public school and private school is different as well. So the question is: Who are they behind? The kids at this school or that school? In that region or this one?

 

I have no desire to compete with any public or private school. I am not raising a statistic but an individual with particular bents and interests. To have my children on grade level is not even on my list of goals.

 

My daughter is an advanced reader but a poor speller. So is she ahead or behind?

 

This argument is a faulty one from the outset. :001_smile:

[Matryoshka]

I would be willing to say, based on dh's observation in schools, that the majority (more than half) go back behind in some way. That's because, as pp have said, some families put their dc back in because homeschooling isn't working out.

 

I also think this is the reason. It's a self-selecting group, and it's the only one most teachers see. My mother (retired ps teacher) used to feed me that line when my kids were preschool aged and she was trying to talk me out of homeschooling.

 

Luckily for us, one family did put their high-achieving kiddos in one of the districts around here for high school (they homeschooled each child K-8,) which created a legend of "smart homeschoolers."

 

Lucky for us, too. We had a homeschooler start high school here who was one of the first they'd seen (at least at that level), and they took her word for what she could do. She graduated top of the class and then went to Harvard. So I'm hoping they'd take my word for it too (I'm thinking I might send them to the local ps, which does have a very good rep).

[Harriet Vane]

I have no reliable data, but one anecdotal experience to offer:

 

My aunt had a brain tumor and passed away earlier this year. She had five children. She had the brain tumor for many years prior to diagnosis. We didn't know about her tumor, and thought she struggled with chronic depression, and sometimes even wondered if she might be mentally ill. In short, she just couldn't keep up with anything, and couldn't cope with anything. I was frantic for four years because I saw that while she tried to homeschool, she simply was NOT. There were days and weeks that went by with NO schooling, and other times where some schooling happened.

 

After her diagnosis her husband tried heroically to save her life, maintain their home, AND homeschool the children. He worked very hard at it but it was naturally very, very difficult.

 

When the kids finally went to school, they tested as only one year behind. I was relieved and astounded, because I knew very well how little schooling they had received. It's been years now, and the kids are doing quite well in school.

 

In light of that experience, I have a hard time believing that a hardworking homeschooling family would really be "behind" when entering a school setting.

[Alte Veste Academy]

There does seem to be a complacency that anything is better than the public school system, and an assumption that public schools are uniformly awful, on the part of some parents.

 

I've seen homeschoolers say this almost word for word to other homeschoolers who are concerned that they're letting academics slip and their kids aren't progressing like they think they should be: "Even the worst day of homeschooling is better than the best day at a public school."

 

:iagree:

 

I had to ditch the first Yahoo group I ever joined, a local HS group, because I was so exasperated with the incessant recommendations to "just pick out some workbooks at Wal-Mart."

 

Regarding those who say

 

Snort. When I'm having those sorts of days, I just consider it a vacation day. And I make it up later.

 

My husband thought I should meet other homeschooling parents so I could "discuss curriculum with them." I had to let him in on unschooling. I don't think he's recovered. The local coop near me seems to be a social/sports group. There are others who do park/zoo outings and occasionally a play (as in theater). And there's another group that's sort of turned private school. Otherwise, that's what I use you ladies for -- to discuss curriculum.

 

:iagree:

 

I have met 4 people in 6 years (6 if you include long-distance friends) in real life with whom I could discuss curriculum feeling like we had enough in common to not tiptoe around our choices.

 

This whole discussion requires a lot of generalizations. We're all basing our answers on the homeschoolers we know and that can change drastically from location to location or from home to home, for that matter. Each public school and private school is different as well. So the question is: Who are they behind? The kids at this school or that school? In that region or this one?

 

I have no desire to compete with any public or private school. I am not raising a statistic but an individual with particular bents and interests. To have my children on grade level is not even on my list of goals.

 

This argument is a faulty one from the outset. :001_smile:

 

:iagree:Based on what I see locally, the statistic from the OP would not surprise me in the least. Elsewhere, I'm sure I might feel differently.

 

I've heard this from a principal who is very pro-homeschooling and, frankly, I believe it. Most homeschoolers aren't doing it the way we do it here.

 

I do think the dynamic of this particular board is unique. I think this board are probably some of the most academically minded homeschoolers out there.

 

:iagree:

 

But, frankly, even here I sense less rigor now than when I first arrived in 2008.

 

And now let the debates and discussions about rigor commence. :tongue_smilie:

 

:leaving:

[justamouse]

My 16 Dd is a junior this year, right where she's supposed to be.

 

AND that's highly subjective because I don't think all of the other juniors went through a WTM ancients/medieval cycle (with lit) before going to PS. *grouch*

 

ETA, this is her first year back to PS full time.

Edited August 30, 2011 by justamouse

[Peela]

My son went to highschool this year- we were very curious as to how he would do after 7.5 years of homeschooling. It was pretty certain that if he hadnt been homeschooled from grade 2, he would have fallen through the cracks in the school system.

He was presumed to be academically excellent, because he said he wanted to be a lawyer! So he was put into the top streams of everything. He basically failed maths and science. He was behind in both and does not have a math science brain at all AND, with maths at least, it wasn't for lack of trying on my part.With science- he was doing classes- once a week- and they obviously just weren't up to scratch as much as the ex schoolteacher who ran them, said they were. I probably let him down somewhat there but it was the hardest subject to cover for me.

But he is also dyslexic and stayed in the top stream for ENglish. I had emphasised English and History so much (thanks WTM!) that these were his best subjects.

So, it was uneven but not surprising. And really, I did everything I could with the material I had (him) :) He was never an easy student. I don't blame myself. He was still better off homeschooling in so many ways- none of us dispute that at all- and he is homeschooling again now.

[Shannon in TN]

 

I can guarantee that not all children who transfer from one public school to another are at the grade level they should be, either.

 

 

I can speak for this personally. I went to what would be called these days a magnet elementary school up until 6th grade. My mom and I moved the summer before my 7th grade year and I spent that whole grade re-doing everything I had done the previous year in 6th grade, and some I had covered in 5th. I even tried going to the principal to request different, more difficult, classes but they wouldn't move me. I don't remember their reasons but I'm sure they figured they were legit. They kept telling me that once I finished the grade, they would then reassess where I should go for classes.

 

Of course, that was 26 years or so ago, but I'm sure there's still some truth to the gaps between schools and curricula.

[justamouse]

I can guarantee that not all children who transfer from one public school to another are at the grade level they should be, either.

 

Exactly. that's exactly what I said to the guidance counselor.

[Denisemomof4]

My boys entered school in 9th and 5th grades. Both struggled with math initially because they had used Saxon all along and then were thrown into Everyday Math. Dh, gifted at math AND a math tutor to both school aged children AND college students, even had to attend workshops to figure out that (in my opinion) crappy math program.

 

BOTH excelled in everything else. Ds19, now, was hunted down in the halls after taking the PSAT. They wanted to know where he got his instruction in English/writing because they KNEW he didn't gain it from the PS. :001_huh: His lowest score (both my boys struggle with math, both hate it and I blame my curriculum choice) was in math, including in his final SAT scores, and those were in the mid 80th percentile. I only speak from my experience.

 

When I read your title, my immediate thought was :smilielol5:but I do know there are parents out there who truly SHOULDN'T be homeschooling. I have met families who are NOT putting effort into schooling at all. One of them now has a ds19 who has barely any skills at all and can't find a job. He's a good kid, but his mother regularly told me she felt bad for not paying attention to their schooling more. Really?!:glare:

[Tarreymere]

I live in a small town and almost all of my inlaws work in the local school system. They have a very negative view of homeschooling because they only homeschoolers they see are the ones who have trouble or are in and out of school. Noone notices the homeschoolers that actually do well-just the ones that do poorly. Focusing on the negative is so much more popular than seeing the positive.

 

From my experience, it seems that homeschoolers might be behind a little in some areas when they are elementary age but that they then go on to catch up and surpass their peers as they get older. Many homeschoolers don't focus so much on things like spelling, grammar and writing when their kids are younger believing that it's easier to teach those subjects in a shorter time to an older child that can understand it more quickly. Many of use copywork and dictation exercises instead of creative writing in the younger years. We have used a mastery approach in our math studies which means my children might not know beginning fractions as early as others but at the same time, they are able to add up to the hundredth thousandth place while others might only be adding double digits.

 

I guess my point is that homeschoolers individualize their curriculum to fit each child and the public school cannot do that. As a result, homeschoolers may often be behind in some subjects but are often ahead in others-especially in the younger years.

 

This whole discussion requires a lot of generalizations. We're all basing our answers on the homeschoolers we know and that can change drastically from location to location or from home to home, for that matter. Each public school and private school is different as well. So the question is: Who are they behind? The kids at this school or that school? In that region or this one?

 

I have no desire to compete with any public or private school. I am not raising a statistic but an individual with particular bents and interests. To have my children on grade level is not even on my list of goals.

 

My daughter is an advanced reader but a poor speller. So is she ahead or behind?

 

This argument is a faulty one from the outset. :001_smile:

 

:iagree:

 

My daughter has really poor handwriting. We may not even ever get to cursive. She is seven, going on eight. She can read the newspaper aloud very fluently but she won't bother to sound out a word to figure out how to spell it.....how do you assign a grade level to that? That is why we homeschool in the first place, so that I can challenge her no matter what 'grade level' she may be at in a given subject.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I think that a good percentage of homeschoolers are definitely "behind."

I think that there also has to be a good percentage of homeschoolers who are doing well also.

I don't think "behind" *has to mean* "not doing well." Not every child has the same academic potential.

That doesn't excuse those who simply are non-schooling or constantly letting life get in the way or whatever.

[Mom2Two]

When I enrolled my children in ps after five years of homeschooling, they were ahead. I had the option to enroll both in a grade higher, but opted to keep them with kids their ages for maturity reasons. I feel homeschooling gave them the absolute best start and would still be doing it today if I didn't have to return to the workplace.

[justamouse]

 

 

But, frankly, even here I sense less rigor now than when I first arrived in 2008.

 

And now let the debates and discussions about rigor commence. :tongue_smilie:

 

:leaving:

 

Even still, I'll be here for the next 12 years because The Hive is the reason I keep the bar raised. Not that I would lower it, but I sign off knowing that I'm on the right path.

[kitten18]

I think that sometimes, people just talk out of their you-know-whats. ;)

I would say that would be most of the time, not just sometimes.:D

 

They do?

In regard to PS students in elementary, doing a lot of writing: they do here. I know kindergartners that were "writing" 2-3 paragraphs about the class pet.

I am firmly in the SWB/WWE camp of elementary writing. My 2nd grade DD would absolutely be "behind" in writing if she went to ps right now.

 

I think following TWTM way my son will be ahead on writing in High School and College.

 

 

That's what I'm hoping.

 

I've heard this from a principal who is very pro-homeschooling and, frankly, I believe it. Most homeschoolers aren't doing it the way we do it here.

I think that is probably true.

 

 

I guess in the end, I can't worry about what other homeschoolers are doing. I have to worry about what WE are doing.

Edited August 30, 2011 by kitten18

[JennyD]

I heard a similar critique from a high school teacher, who maintained that the homeschooled students who transferred into her school were inevitably both 'academically and socially behind.' I found the latter comment particular interesting -- what does it mean for a 14yo to be 'socially behind,' exactly? -- and when I pressed her on the question the gist seemed to be that the homeschooled students just seemed younger, were unfamiliar with the social norms of their peers, etc. Which made sense, but I thought it was a very strange thing to criticize, given that the problem ju jour is supposedly that the Youth of Today Are Growing Up Too Fast.

[Joanne]

I would have to say that my experience with homeschooled high schoolers is exactly this, or worse.

 

I taught science and English (double major: biology/English) at two different homeschool co-ops over a 12-year period (one was actually a once-a-week school, not a co-op). My high school students were, on the whole, behind in writing, science, and math. Literary analysis? Grammar? The simple act of test-taking? Completing an assignment and turning it in the next week? Forget it. They were years behind their public-schooled peers in both education and the ability to work independently.

 

I hope this is not the norm. The groups I taught for were very conservative Christians, and I know that many of the parents were homeschooling more out of fear and protectiveness than for a decent education.

 

I ended up putting my own children in school, in large part because my kids wanted to school with a group as they got older and I could find no one - no one!! - who had the same educational expectations or kids on grade level. My kids have thrived in the public school system here...but I sure had a lot of teachers that first year come up to me and remark about how they couldn't believe that my kids had been homeschooled because they were so capable.

 

I believe it's all about what the parents' goals are in their homeschool situation and how hard they work at making sure their kids receive a good education.

 

When I first read Ria's posts on this subject, I broke out with the "pat" homeschool answer of "test scores" and other fairly predictable rhetoric.

 

It is now years later, and I am a teacher in a private school in which the demographic is a high percentage of homeschoolers turned alternative private school.

 

A significant percentage WERE/ARE behind in literary skill, math, science and writing. A significant percentage have a family culture of apathy about deadlines, grades, and expected institutional boundaries/rules.

 

My school meets for class instruction 2 days a week (M, W for Secondary and T, Th for primary). We verbally stress that the students are students 5 days. But a certain number of our students are *not* able to embrace the load of work = what they would do if they were in school 5 days.

 

I was flabbergasted today, the 2nd day of instruction, of the students who had not done their homework. Really? 2nd day?? My answer in this thread is clearly skewed by my frustration today.

 

I guess I'll be giving quizzes each day - and counting the earned grades - until students start doing the work.

 

Edited to add: I do think that the "homeschoolers that go to school" is a skewed representation. The numbers of homeschoolers that seem to be going to public school seem to be a statistical unlikelihood when you look at the math of the actual number of homeschoolers. I do not believe that homeschoolers are entering the public school system at the rate represented by the anecdotal stories shared.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Joanne

[justamouse]

When I first read Ria's posts on this subject, I broke out with the "pat" homeschool answer of "test scores" and other fairly predictable rhetoric.

 

It is now years later, and I am a teacher in a private school in which the demographic is a high percentage of homeschoolers turned alternative private school.

 

A significant percentage WERE/ARE behind in literary skill, math, science and writing. A significant percentage have a family culture of apathy about deadlines, grades, and expected institutional boundaries/rules.

 

My school meets for class instruction 2 days a week (M, W for Secondary and T, Th for primary). We verbally stress that the students are students 5 days. But a certain number of our students are *not* able to embrace the load of work = what they would do if they were in school 5 days.

 

I was flabbergasted today, the 2nd day of instruction, of the students who had not done their homework. Really? 2nd day?? My answer in this thread is clearly skewed by my frustration today.

 

I guess I'll be giving quizzes each day - and counting the earned grades - until students start doing the work.

 

Edited to add: I do think that the "homeschoolers that go to school" is a skewed representation. The numbers of homeschoolers that seem to be going to public school seem to be a statistical unlikelihood when you look at the math of the actual number of homeschoolers. I do not believe that homeschoolers are entering the public school system at the rate represented by the anecdotal stories shared.

 

:glare:This is not good.

 

In all honesty, I'm afraid of these types of families ruining a good thing for us.

[Joanne]

:glare:This is not good.

 

In all honesty, I'm afraid of these types of families ruining a good thing for us.

 

They are. It is very much a part of (a significant percentage of homeschool culture).

 

I've BEEN that homeschooler. I under-scienced, under-mathed. (I did fine on the liberal arts ;)). But, more than that, I watched homescooler after homeschooler trot out old studies, and platitudes in response to this issue.

 

I've talked for hours with the teachers at my school; a mix of certified teachers and former/still homeshoolers. We've ALL noticed the same thing. It is scary.

 

I'd venture that those reading here are a self-select group for which the content of this thread is less appropriate.

 

But in general? I've lost respect, academically, of the homeschool community.

[*Lulu*]

They are. It is very much a part of (a significant percentage of homeschool culture).

 

I've BEEN that homeschooler. I under-scienced, under-mathed. (I did fine on the liberal arts ;)). But, more than that, I watched homescooler after homeschooler trot out old studies, and platitudes in response to this issue.

 

I've talked for hours with the teachers at my school; a mix of certified teachers and former/still homeshoolers. We've ALL noticed the same thing. It is scary.

 

I'd venture that those reading here are a self-select group for which the content of this thread is less appropriate.

 

But in general? I've lost respect, academically, of the homeschool community.

 

Judging from the homeschoolers I have met IRL it seems that there are a great many more choosing homeschooling for reasons other than academic. Some that I've met treat a academic rigor as a possible side effect of homeschooling instead of a driving force.

 

When you couple a culture of permissive parenting with a focus that is not academic it is little wonder that we are seeing a growing number who are not on level with their peers.

Edited August 30, 2011 by BLA5
IRL for clarification

[Food4Thought]

Even still, I'll be here for the next 12 years because The Hive is the reason I keep the bar raised. Not that I would lower it, but I sign off knowing that I'm on the right path.

 

:iagree: I honestly thank God that I found these forums. I have met no one IRL who homeschools as rigorously as the people on these boards.

 

:glare:This is not good.

 

In all honesty, I'm afraid of these types of families ruining a good thing for us.

 

As am I. In response to the OP - I don't think there is statistical evidence, but I can offer up quite a bit of anecdotal evidence based on what goes on locally. I face a constant battle because of what other homeschoolers in the area are doing to their kids. People are constantly coming to me and asking details about homeschooling and "sharing their concerns" based on others they've seen. Some of the kids around here from one particular family are well into their 20s and "haven't quite finished" high school yet. In another family is a boy who is 17 and his mom is scrambling to get him into a school because she hasn't figured out how to do high school. He's a 9th grader, and he should be graduating this year.

 

I don't mind those who homeschool for solely "religious" regions, but I think many of them do a disservice to all of us by choosing not to do their work with excellence and grace. I also hope I don't drop the ball, and can continue having the support I need to homeschool rigorously. My DS wants to go to college. I'm working hard NOW to get him there.

[Colleen]

 

There does seem to be a complacency that anything is better than the public school system, and an assumption that public schools are uniformly awful, on the part of some parents.

Yep, I'd describe this as a very common mindset in the homeschooling community.

 

Edited August 30, 2011 by Colleen

[Joker]

I don't really think the problem with deadlines/homework is due to being homeschooled. Dd returned this year to ps and she was one of a few who actually did the science homework over the weekend. The other kids - most who have been in ps the whole time- didn't do the assignment. Maybe many parents today just aren't as involved? Dd has easily transitioned into the system and we make sure she does what is expected.

[Joanne]

I don't really think the problem with deadlines/homework is due to being homeschooled. Dd returned this year to ps and she was one of a few who actually did the science homework over the weekend. The other kids - most who have been in ps the whole time- didn't do the assignment. Maybe many parents today just aren't as involved? Dd has easily transitioned into the system and we make sure she does what is expected.

 

My dd transitioned to private school well. My oldest ds does ok in public school. My youngest does not; age and gender expected.

 

My *students* do fall along homeschool culture lines and THEIR apathy about assignments and deadlines is related to their homeschooling.

[Soror]

I always find these talks about rigor interesting. I think I see both sides around here. It seems there are a fair amount of hs moms that aren't very organized(they are notoriously late) or paying much attention. Of my personal friends that hs there seems to be a range between those that are very rigorous and those that are much more lax. That also does seem to break down on the lines of the reasons for hs'ing and their value of education.

[creekland]

At our school, when homeschooling comes up, they are generally broken into two groups - those who do it right and those who don't. We've seen both.

 

Granted, kids both in and out of ps have different academic capabilities - there's no difference in that.

 

BUT, when you see academically capable kids come in and do poorly it is frustrating and it happens a fair bit.

 

We do, however, have academically capable kids come in and do superbly too. Those students are great to work with often having a better maturity than their ps peers IMO.

 

It all depends on who was doing the homeschooling.

 

If I had to guess at statistics based upon what I've seen locally I'd say around 10% or less would meet "my" (rather high) standards.

 

Among hive members, I'm suspecting 90% probably would meet or exceed my standards. I kind of like being "average" on here. I don't belong to any local hs group, but there are a couple of friends (and my evaluator - who also sees some of the "others") who I can talk with about things.

[Joyofsixreboot]

There are probably too many confounding factors to ever known the answer. I do know many of the always PS kids in even the AP classes my kids are in don't do much homework. We do not have a high school with an academic culture, however. I do think I need to stay here and hang out where I can "listen" to these conversations. Locally no one even wants to discuss it.

[LaxMom]

When I first read Ria's posts on this subject, I broke out with the "pat" homeschool answer of "test scores" and other fairly predictable rhetoric.

 

It is now years later, and I am a teacher in a private school in which the demographic is a high percentage of homeschoolers turned alternative private school.

 

A significant percentage WERE/ARE behind in literary skill, math, science and writing. A significant percentage have a family culture of apathy about deadlines, grades, and expected institutional boundaries/rules.

 

My school meets for class instruction 2 days a week (M, W for Secondary and T, Th for primary). We verbally stress that the students are students 5 days. But a certain number of our students are *not* able to embrace the load of work = what they would do if they were in school 5 days.

 

I was flabbergasted today, the 2nd day of instruction, of the students who had not done their homework. Really? 2nd day?? My answer in this thread is clearly skewed by my frustration today.

 

I guess I'll be giving quizzes each day - and counting the earned grades - until students start doing the work.

 

Edited to add: I do think that the "homeschoolers that go to school" is a skewed representation. The numbers of homeschoolers that seem to be going to public school seem to be a statistical unlikelihood when you look at the math of the actual number of homeschoolers. I do not believe that homeschoolers are entering the public school system at the rate represented by the anecdotal stories shared.

I know those people. I deal with them in our umbrella group ("What? I didn't know about the reviews that are outlined in the paperwork, and you sent out multiple reminders about..." "What? I had to re-enroll this year?") and dealt with them in our co-op (sign your daughter up for an 8-week book discussion, then never, ever procure the book?)

 

Interestingly, my friends who do not homeschool for academic reasons - health issues, freedom to travel - have a family culture that values education, and that is definitely reflected in their standards for their children. Some of the others who list academics as their number one reason, not so much.

 

:glare:This is not good.

 

In all honesty, I'm afraid of these types of families ruining a good thing for us.

I feel the same way. And I know lots of people (IRL and here) who feel they are not ambassadors for homeschooling, but when their laxness in meeting standards - of education, of timeliness, etc - is used to define the rest of us... well, whether we want to be or not, every one of us is a de facto ambassador of homeschooling. There are comparatively few of us, so the conduct of each is often the sole impression of the group.

 

Sorry, I seem to have skewed off course a bit.

Edited August 30, 2011 by MyCrazyHouse

[Pamela H in Texas]

I find it interesting that each time this type of thread is done, there are a couple more people who have noticed a decline (or possibly it was always present?) in academic ability but moreso academic dedication among homeschooling families. There were threads years ago when there were only two or three of us, who had noticed this. Usually, it was those of us with older students. But slowly, more and more people notice it.

 

But I think it is significant on this board also. I do think this board is a self-selected group of people and more of us than not homeschool in some bonafide manner. However, even here, the tone has changed. Someone asked if even those of us doing the WTM would be behind. There would be some gaps due to when things are covered, of course; but generally I think those doing the WTM with kids capable of a fairly full classical education would be fine. Then the question comes up, "how many people are *really* doing a WTM education?" Polls show that many people deviate from it quite a bit. Additionally, the key word is *do* not just buying the materials :)

 

Anyway, I think there is a real lack of education within the homeschooling community. It is important not to perpetuate things like "any homeschool is better than any public school." It is important to be honest about what work it is. It is important to homeschool appropriately ourselves.

[Heather in Neverland]

I know it is not popular to say that homeschoolers need to up their standards but honestly, I am exhausted from defending us all.

 

We get a lot of homeschooled applicants for my school. A lot. As soon as it is mentioned at our admissions meetings that an applicant has been homeschooled, the eye-rolling and snarky comments start.

 

And I ALWAYS JUMP TO THEIR DEFENSE. Always. But I am getting tired because, honestly, these homeschooled kids ARE behind... really behind.

 

I would LOVE for some homeschooled applicant to come in and just smoke our entrance test but none so far. And the ones who do get in have troubles coping with homework, deadlines, organization, and .... I hate to say it... social skills.

 

Please, can someone send a homeschooled kid to my school who proves them all wrong so I can stop looking like a fool??? :tongue_smilie:

[FO4UR]

 

My *students* do fall along homeschool culture lines and THEIR apathy about assignments and deadlines is related to their homeschooling.

 

Yikes!!!:thumbdown:

 

This does not bode well for the future of HSing.

 

 

 

Anyway, I think there is a real lack of education within the homeschooling community. It is important not to perpetuate things like "any homeschool is better than any public school." It is important to be honest about what work it is. It is important to homeschool appropriately ourselves.

 

I suppose I'm naive. I'm somewhat new to this community and know few HSers irl.

 

This thread does light a fire as I start my day today.

[Crimson Wife]

The impression I got is that most public school students do very little writing of essays and more writing of brief responses to brief excerpts from novels, etc. Not very many long essays.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/13/AR2010071304642.htmlp

 

I'm not talking high school here, but elementary. I agree that many (if not most) high school students on the college prep track aren't remotely doing the kind of assignments they ought to be in order to be ready for college coursework. But in the early grades, the PS around here seem to have IMHO age-inappropriate expectations for the quantity of output. And judging from the samples I saw posted, I'm not terribly impressed with the results.

[Laurie4b]

Well, I can tell you that I used to administer the Woodcock Johnson for homeschool families. I did between 30-50 per year. Standardized testing is required in our state and so this is not a skewed sample of parents seeking testing.

 

Many kids were whoppingly above grade level.

Nearly all kids were at or above grade level.

Some were below grade level in some subjects (LD type pattern.)

I can only think of one family over all those years who was "winging it" in a way that I would readily believe that their child was below grade level when entering public school in high school. (This child also had an LD, but the winging it was the main issue.)

[....]

But in the early grades, the PS around here seem to have IMHO age-inappropriate expectations for the quantity of output. And judging from the samples I saw posted, I'm not terribly impressed with the results.

 

:iagree: I completely agree with you. When our kids went to ps, they were mass-producing essays full of phonetic alien writing. I posted about this a couple of times on the curriculum board. It took a LOT of work (and a lot of WWE) to undo that *&^& when I pulled my kids out of school.

 

Oh, and my son didn't know his letter sounds. Awesome. Just awesome.

[Mom in High Heels]

I don't mean to be a complete jerk but a CASHIER tried debating homeschooling with you? I'm ready and willing to dive into a debate with someone who has statistics and facts to back up their arguments but a cashier when you're just trying to get your family's groceries? Uh, NO. I'd ask for a manager so that I could pay these people in PEACE.

 

This was EXACTLY what I thought. First off, how rude. I think I would have asked her if she went to ps or was homeschooled (I'm fairly certain you could guess which one), and then point at that her ps education certainly worked out. But maybe that's just me.

[SailorMom]

I was really worried last year when DS went back to PS after 6 years of being homeschooled. For exactly these reasons, and because sooooooo many people assured me he'd probably struggle with homework, deadlines, etc. They were saying all this from experiences with other HS'ed kids in PS (these were all teacher friends). But DS blew them away. Straight A's all year, never late, always had homework done - and I never had to tell him to do it, never had to set his alarm or wake him up, etc.

 

I actually had a teacher, at Back to School Night, slyly whisper, "Oh! Your Kyle's mom? Well - if all the HS'ed kids we got were as prepared as yours I'd have a much better opinion of homeschool." I had no idea how to respond to that! I assured her that there were many, many other homeschooled kids who would be just as prepared, but she didn't seem to buy it.

 

I have seen the problems in the HS groups - and some are academic problems - but I think most of the issues are with the deadlines and homework. In another thread, someone joked about "homeschool standard time" - I love that - and it does sum it up :)

[Sevilla]

At my former school we had a ripped-off nursery rhyme saying:

 

"When hs'ing is good, it is very-very good. But when it is bad, it is horrid."

 

I've seen that be mostly true (I had a number of homeschool transfer students into high school - most were fine and average, but the ones that stick in your mind are the ones who were so far behind it was scary.

 

I can say the one thing that I am sick and tired of is people trotting out 'better late than early philosophy' for every reason under the sun not to do formal school work. It's become a catch phrase and misrepresents the author's point IMO. I also think that a higher percentage of 'P' parents (on the MBTI), especially "NFP" parents who struggle the most with structure/authority/institutions are leading this vanguard of anti-academic 'schooling' (note: NOT all P's/NFP's are like this and I don't want to imply that - but the most 'wing it' homeschoolers I have soon who struggled to keep things together were that type). The philosophy I have seen espoused became something like this: "Children will figure out what they need to learn - I'll let them figure it out and help if they ask. If they want to learn to write then they'll figure out the best way to form letters via trial/error [Why not get a handwriting program???]).

Edited August 30, 2011 by Sevilla

[Dmmetler]

I also think this is the reason. It's a self-selecting group, and it's the only one most teachers see. My mother (retired ps teacher) used to feed me that line when my kids were preschool aged and she was trying to talk me out of homeschooling.

 

 

 

The funny thing is that I had the opposite effect. My parents both are heavily involved in ISEF and JSHS regional preliminaries, and the winners almost inevitably are either from math/science specialty high schools or are homeschooled. So, they were all for me homeschooling DD, because OBVIOUSLY homeschooling is the way to go, unless you just happen to have a high-powered magnet high school in your back yard.

 

 

I think the image of "homeschoolers as science fair and spelling bee winners" is about as far from the truth as "all homeschoolers are completely behind and can't hack it in public school". But I must say it's made my life easier to have my extended family firmly on the "science fair and spelling bee winners" side!

[Stacy in NJ]

:glare:This is not good.

 

In all honesty, I'm afraid of these types of families ruining a good thing for us.

 

These folks won't be anymore enthusiastic, responsive, or responsible if they were in ps, and many of them are in ps.

[NanceXToo]

Well, I don't know, I mean if we go by standardized testing, my daughter scored much higher than the kids at my district ever do particularly in language arts and tested better than a lot of them do in math, too (the results come out in paper each year, and my local districts are below state average).

 

But we also do things on a different timeline than they do, so she didn't score as high in social studies and science- because we're learning about different things than they are and haven't covered a lot of that stuff yet.

 

But that doesn't mean a bright or even "average" child couldn't quickly catch up- much more quickly than "two years" anyway, on that sort of stuff!

[zenjenn]

I have such mixed feelings about this. In some ways, I am, on domestic issues, a staunch libertarian. I don't want the state up in my business. Alabama really does nothing to monitor homeschoolers and on a personal level I really like it that way.

 

On the other hand, I have run into some homeschoolers who are very clearly failing their kids, and I do believe every child deserves access to an education.

 

So I think "would it really be so bad to live in a state where I had to submit standardized test scores and a portfolio of what we've done to the state?" For ME personally, it would be no problem. But what about the parent of a child with severe learning disabilities? That child's test scores might set of the alarms for state intervention, but maybe that child's family is actually meeting the child's special needs better than a failing school system. (After all, there are plenty of kids in public school with piss-poor performance, too.)

[SailorMom]

I have such mixed feelings about this. In some ways, I am, on domestic issues, a staunch libertarian. I don't want the state up in my business. Alabama really does nothing to monitor homeschoolers and on a personal level I really like it that way.

 

On the other hand, I have run into some homeschoolers who are very clearly failing their kids, and I do believe every child deserves access to an education.

 

So I think "would it really be so bad to live in a state where I had to submit standardized test scores and a portfolio of what we've done to the state?" For ME personally, it would be no problem. But what about the parent of a child with severe learning disabilities? That child's test scores might set of the alarms for state intervention, but maybe that child's family is actually meeting the child's special needs better than a failing school system. (After all, there are plenty of kids in public school with piss-poor performance, too.)

 

 

My ds has LD's and standardized testing would be a nightmare. He's above or at grade level in everything, but I doubt he would test well.

Thankfully - in FL we have a choice between portfolios and standardized tests - so we go with the protfolio review every year.

I have no problems with some accountability, I think FL handles it well - it's the slippery slope aspect that concerns me.....

Edited August 30, 2011 by SailorMom

[Pam Wilhelm]

So we are behind by 2 years.......... according to a public school principal.

 

 

 

 

I don't care.

[....]

So we are behind by 2 years.......... according to a public school principal.

 

I'm looking at your signature...if you're following AO (which is Charlotte Mason), you shouldn't be 2 years behind. :glare: I think there is just a big difference between curriculum in ps and Charlotte Mason homeschooling. I think it's almost impossible to compare students across different educational philosophies. Like I said in the other thread, do they even teach Latin in ps anymore? But, (this is just one example) for some educational philosophies, Latin is an integral part of the curriculum. A ps student would be "behind".

 

Also, I think you have to look more towards the end product.

[ereks mom]

I have no figures, but my gut says that this could be due to a combination of the following: (a) some homeschoolers shouldn't be. My step-niece is an example of this. She put her 11yo kid online and said "you're on your own" because she felt it was better than sending him to school with lowlife [enter racial epithet here]. Ahem. He returned to PS because (according to him) his writing wasn't up to snuff after a year of HS. (b) Some kids are pulled out because they have special needs that are not being properly met at school. They would have been behind had they continued in PS too. © Successful homeschoolers with high-achieving kids are less likely to go back to PS because their parents continue to HS or they are placed in higher-standard private schools.

 

My gut also tells me the principal is either (i) exaggerating or (ii) basing his statistic on one or two cases.

 

:iagree:

[swellmomma]

I have such mixed feelings about this. In some ways, I am, on domestic issues, a staunch libertarian. I don't want the state up in my business. Alabama really does nothing to monitor homeschoolers and on a personal level I really like it that way.

 

On the other hand, I have run into some homeschoolers who are very clearly failing their kids, and I do believe every child deserves access to an education.

 

So I think "would it really be so bad to live in a state where I had to submit standardized test scores and a portfolio of what we've done to the state?" For ME personally, it would be no problem. But what about the parent of a child with severe learning disabilities? That child's test scores might set of the alarms for state intervention, but maybe that child's family is actually meeting the child's special needs better than a failing school system. (After all, there are plenty of kids in public school with piss-poor performance, too.)

 

Where I live you have to register with a board, and that board does your assessment each year. Luckily there is many different ones to chose from based on your family's needs. 2 years ago we were with one that did not accomodate for special needs as such they failed my ds. He has severe learning issues and was not performing at grade level. (He was 2 years behind in ps too but they still passed him etc). We are with a different board now that recognizes that while ds is behind he is progressing at a steady pace and they accomodate for special needs so while he is behind those in ps, he is on level with his abilities.

 

I always find the threads on rigor hard, because as much as I want to push my kids more, they will always be a bit behind due to learning disabilities. I push them to the best of their abilities, but that may seem to some like we are too lax if they looked at test scores alone kwim

[Matryoshka]

I ahe no problems with some accountability, I think FL handles it well - it's the slippery slope aspect that concerns me.....

 

I also have no problem with some accountability. I'd wonder what percentage of these catastrophic homeschooling failures are from the states with no oversight.

 

I also agree requiring standardized testing is not optimal for the reasons mentioned - in our state we can choose between a standardized test, portfolio, or narrative progress report. I do the latter every year and actually enjoy it - I love looking back over what we've done each year. It usually makes me feel much better about what we've accomplished.

 

But really, with some choices in how to report, I don't find it onerous at all, and I think having some accountability makes people less likely flounder. (Though I have to say I'm glad I'm not in a state with an evaluator required.) And I'm also worried about the slippery slope.