"Most homeschool kids go back to ps 2 years behind"

[Pam Wilhelm]

I'm looking at your signature...if you're following AO (which is Charlotte Mason), you shouldn't be 2 years behind. :glare: I think there is just a big difference between curriculum in ps and Charlotte Mason homeschooling. I think it's almost impossible to compare students across different educational philosophies. Like I said in the other thread, do they even teach Latin in ps anymore? But, (this is just one example) for some educational philosophies, Latin is an integral part of the curriculum. A ps student would be "behind".

 

Also, I think you have to look more towards the end product.

 

I agree....and my post was sort of, flippant? ingenuous? meh? :lol:

 

After 8 years of homeschooling.....I've realized that I don't much care what the public school system has to say about my homeschooling. My kids are bright, inquisitive, well-rounded individuals.....they get along with other people..regardless of their ages, etc. They are kind and loving to one another. They ask thoughtful questions and are always loving to learn. We may be behind in some things and ahead in others....that is the way of life.

 

I have been publicly demonized on Facebook by a family member because my (then) 8 year old wasn't a fluent reader who was willing to "perform" for my brother in a restaurant in front on complete strangers. My brother was cruel and vicious.......... kind of an interesting behavior for him considering he was a high school drop out, dropped out of the Air Force, and was probably drunk and stoned when he vilified me on FB. He is no longer my friend and I haven't talked to him in over a year.

 

Nope....I don't care what any "expert" thinks of where my kids are academically. Given the current state of our public schools in this country....I don't think they have much room to talk.

[SeekingHim77]

The funny thing is that in my area, the homeschoolers are actually more rigorous than they were when I started 9 years ago. At that time, they were using things like ACE, PACES and unschooling. We don't have any unschoolers in our group now. Everyone is either pursuing a classical or charlotte mason education. We talk about curriculum all the time and glean many great ideas from one another. I have seen my share of those who are lazy in their methods of education but they are on the outskirts around here. They don't participate in group events and they are usually late with their evaluations or just never turn them in. The majority of them are using homeschooling freedoms to get out of taking their children to school and had truancy problems when their children were in school. I just ignore them. I don't even really think of them as homeschoolers. Unfortunately, they are homeschoolers in the eyes of the public school and that does not bode well for the rest of us.

 

The right to homeschool is just like any other freedom that we have-there will always be those that choose to abuse it. People abuse freedom of speech, the right to bear arms, etc., etc., etc...... Wherever there is freedom, such problems will always exist. Their failure shouldn't be reflective of all homeschoolers just like murderers shouldn't be reflective of all gun owners, etc.

[angela in ohio]

I heard Dr. Jay Wile talk at the Midwest Homeschool Convention. He talked about research that shows that homeschool students score higher than both public and private schools. They can't be behind and score higher on the tests. I'm wondering if it is just a difference in curriculum? Or the bias mentioned here of it being kids in homes where homeschooling didn't work. Here's a link to his handouts for that talk. It looks like a lot of the research is older. I wonder if there is new research?

http://www.drwile.com/hs_sol1.pdf

 

I'm actually surprised at him. As a scientist, he should know better than most that those results are NOT representative of homeschooling in general. Homeschoolers love to quote them, but they only apply to a small, self-selected group of homeschoolers.

 

There is a vocal segment of the homeschool popluation that is opposed to any kind of research (just read HEM :D.) And you have the problem of different states both defining and tracking homeschooling in different ways. There is currently no way to get an accurate sample.

 

There does seem to be a complacency that anything is better than the public school system, and an assumption that public schools are uniformly awful, on the part of some parents.

 

The first time I mentioned this on this board years ago, I got a lot of argument. :D Few others had heard of other homeschoolers with this mentatilty. As the years have gone by, I've seen more an more people acknowledge that this is a prevalent attitude.

 

I have seen a few homeschool families absolutely devastated because they believed this rhetoric from the local homeschool community, and then when their dc went into school, they were shocked by the academic level and the fact that their dc were behind.

 

But, more than that, I watched homescooler after homeschooler trot out old studies, and platitudes in response to this issue.

 

This. The research can be damaging to us when we look at the homeschoolers around us, see what they are doing, and believe that it is leading to high scores because of a very limited study done on a specific type of homeschooler years ago.

 

I left our local inclusive, relaxed homeschool group many years ago for other-than-academic reasons, but I still knew most of the other homeschoolers who had dc my ages. We are at the point age-wise now where most homeschoolers go to school, and I know very well that those dc were incredibly behind in most areas. Sure they each had one big interest (animals of Madagascar, or Jane Austen novels, or astronomy, or such) and they were very well educated in that one area, but overall they wouldn't be anywhere near grade level across the board. A lot of homeschoolers teach to the areas of strength and least resistance, too, so they might have dc on level in one area, but behind in others.

 

Most of the families I know who had a low academic level for religious reasons wouldn't ever send their dc to a public school. They usually get jobs during or just out of high school. A few go to community college, and we are starting to see some of them fail at the CC.

 

The academic homeschoolers I have known go to private school if they go to high school. Or they just start at the community college in high school and get their two-year degree. The homeschoolers who went to public/charter schools would not be a very flattering representation of homeschoolers, the ones who go to private school are usually a great represeantation (the local private schools we visited last year would take all of my high school credits at face value with no documentation, for example,) and the ones who went to CC would be an odd mix of a high achieving group and a non-acadmic group.

 

Of course, there are exceptions, and we can just give anecdotal evidence on both sides. For example, I talked about the one local family who put their dc into high school after using full BJU for K-8 (I know because dh taught there when the oldest enrolled, and I had him ask her what they used :D,) and their dc were way ahead, which gave homeschoolers a great reputation at that school. I could just give that one example as proof of the other side, but it is an anomoly in our local homeschool community and everyone around here knows it.

Edited August 30, 2011 by angela in ohio

[angela in ohio]

I also have no problem with some accountability. I'd wonder what percentage of these catastrophic homeschooling failures are from the states with no oversight.

 

I also agree requiring standardized testing is not optimal for the reasons mentioned - in our state we can choose between a standardized test, portfolio, or narrative progress report. I do the latter every year and actually enjoy it - I love looking back over what we've done each year. It usually makes me feel much better about what we've accomplished.

 

But really, with some choices in how to report, I don't find it onerous at all, and I think having some accountability makes people less likely flounder. (Though I have to say I'm glad I'm not in a state with an evaluator required.) And I'm also worried about the slippery slope.

 

I've lived in a state with medium-to-high requirements and now in a state with very little. I see no difference in the homeschoolers. In Ohio, one of the choices was a portfolio review, so a few homeschooling moms with teaching credentials would rubber stamp anyone who was willing to pay them $30-40 each year. For example, one didn't require any documentation review, nor the child to be present. She just met with the parent and talked to them, then signed the paper.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

My boys entered school in 9th and 5th grades. Both struggled with math initially because they had used Saxon all along and then were thrown into Everyday Math. Dh, gifted at math AND a math tutor to both school aged children AND college students, even had to attend workshops to figure out that (in my opinion) crappy math program.

 

BOTH excelled in everything else. Ds19, now, was hunted down in the halls after taking the PSAT. They wanted to know where he got his instruction in English/writing because they KNEW he didn't gain it from the PS. :001_huh: His lowest score (both my boys struggle with math, both hate it and I blame my curriculum choice) was in math, including in his final SAT scores, and those were in the mid 80th percentile. I only speak from my experience.

 

When I read your title, my immediate thought was :smilielol5:but I do know there are parents out there who truly SHOULDN'T be homeschooling. I have met families who are NOT putting effort into schooling at all. One of them now has a ds19 who has barely any skills at all and can't find a job. He's a good kid, but his mother regularly told me she felt bad for not paying attention to their schooling more. Really?!:glare:

So what writing/language arts program did he use;):D

[Matryoshka]

I've lived in a state with medium-to-high requirements and now in a state with very little. I see no difference in the homeschoolers. In Ohio, one of the choices was a portfolio review, so a few homeschooling moms with teaching credentials would rubber stamp anyone who was willing to pay them $30-40 each year. For example, one didn't require any documentation review, nor the child to be present. She just met with the parent and talked to them, then signed the paper.

 

We don't have evaluators or other random people with teaching credentials review anything, and no money changes hands. All of our stuff has to be reviewed by the local public school system. That avoids the scenario you've painted above (although there are towns with really bad schools who have bigger fish to fry than worrying about micromanaging the homeschoolers, so in some cases I guess that could amount to rubber-stamping), but then otoh there are towns with officials on power trips who make life miserable for the hsers in that town - not sure what the ideal scenario is!

[MBM]

Like I said in the other thread, do they even teach Latin in ps anymore? But, (this is just one example) for some educational philosophies, Latin is an integral part of the curriculum. A ps student would be "behind".

 

Be careful with your generalizations. We have public and suburban schools in the Chicago area that begin Latin and sometimes even ancient Greek in the elementary grades. Many schools also teach Spanish, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Mandarin, and Hebrew (<--- the languages taught at my son's high school as well as Latin) starting at some point in the elementary years.

[Pam Wilhelm]

In my personal experience (including my own ramblings)..... generalizations like "Most homeschool kids go back to ps 2 years behind" are desperate blitherings of people who

 

a. don't know what they are talking about.

b. are feeling defensive.

c. want to hurt the recipient of the comments.

d. are trying to make themselves and their own choices superior.

[Jenny in Florida]

They do fine, in fact most that I know of take honors and ap classes.

 

This is mostly what I've seen with the homeschoolers we've known over the years. In recent years, all of my son's homeschooled friends have entered school in either middle or high school. One went to school for the very first time in middle. One returned at that level. Another started high school this year after a long homeschooling hiatus.

 

All of them are taking the honors/AP track. All three are doing very well.

 

I have known some homeschoolers I thought were "behind." Some of the unschoolers with whom we were friendly a few years ago caused me some concern. To be fair, a few of the brightest and most academically able kids we've known come from unschooling families, too. But I did worry a little about the ones whose parents just weren't doing much with them and were brushing off things like older kids not being able to read or do basic math.

 

Another family I know pulled their daughter out of school when it became clear she would be held back a second time because she didn't pass the state achievement tests in third grade. She had been in school all along and was failing. They opted to homeschool for a while to see if they could do better. When we met her a couple of years later, she was still distinctly behind other kids her age, but they felt they were making progress.

 

All of the statistics and stats I've seen suggest that homeschooled kids do very well in college and beyond. But, of course, a lot of those studies involve a certain amount of self-selecting. And it is very possible that many of the kids who end up back in public school are there because homeschooling isn't working for some reason. And they are the ones who would draw attention to the "problem."

[tammyw]

Unless a homeschool family is doing "public school at home" then it makes perfect sense that they are on different tracks, and could appear behind in certain areas.

 

I'll admit that I try to cover everything in "What your Blank Grader Should Know" guides, and WTM book, as well as doing our own thing, because I've got it ingrained me that my kids need to know everything their public schooled counter-parts know, but I'm not convinced that's the only way. It does seem that the system is set up to analyze children in such a way that if they don't all have that "same" education, then they are behind.

[Old Dominion Heather]

These folks won't be anymore enthusiastic, responsive, or responsible if they were in ps, and many of them are in ps.

 

The difference is that they would be accountable. If Joanne tells they that they are going to fail the class, the parents can simply pull them out and choose not to report it on a high school transcript.

 

This is why I don't have a problem with mandatory homeschool testing and reporting. I think that a large percentage of homeschoolers are proving that they do need oversight.

[Crimson Wife]

We don't have evaluators or other random people with teaching credentials review anything, and no money changes hands. All of our stuff has to be reviewed by the local public school system.

 

I'll gladly agree to allow my local PS to have input over what my children are doing in our HS if they allow me to have input over what their students are doing. I'd *LOVE* to give them my $0.02 on all the ways their curricula is lacking :lol:

[MelAR05]

This thread does light a fire as I start my day today.

 

:iagree:

 

I know it is not popular to say that homeschoolers need to up their standards but honestly, I am exhausted from defending us all.

 

We get a lot of homeschooled applicants for my school. A lot. As soon as it is mentioned at our admissions meetings that an applicant has been homeschooled, the eye-rolling and snarky comments start.

 

And I ALWAYS JUMP TO THEIR DEFENSE. Always. But I am getting tired because, honestly, these homeschooled kids ARE behind... really behind.

 

I would LOVE for some homeschooled applicant to come in and just smoke our entrance test but none so far. And the ones who do get in have troubles coping with homework, deadlines, organization, and .... I hate to say it... social skills.

 

Please, can someone send a homeschooled kid to my school who proves them all wrong so I can stop looking like a fool??? :tongue_smilie:

 

Wow! I have to say that all of this is surprising and sad! It pushes me to step up my game! :)

[2_girls_mommy]

Well, I can tell you that I used to administer the Woodcock Johnson for homeschool families. I did between 30-50 per year. Standardized testing is required in our state and so this is not a skewed sample of parents seeking testing.

 

Many kids were whoppingly above grade level.

Nearly all kids were at or above grade level.

Some were below grade level in some subjects (LD type pattern.)

I can only think of one family over all those years who was "winging it" in a way that I would readily believe that their child was below grade level when entering public school in high school. (This child also had an LD, but the winging it was the main issue.)

 

I have only read to here. But any real research or data tha I have seen is along these lines. And yes, there is newer data. NHERI issued their latest results maybe 2 years ago, and it was similar to above.

 

I do know families that unschool or who just don't school IMO. I know many who I think are behind. But the results seem to show that they are on par in the long haul. Some of these families that I know who have youngers who seem behind my own have older ones in high school age range who are getting college scholarships. So I tend to think they are doing something right, albeit a little differently than I do.

 

I prefer to rigorously educate mine from the beginning, and want them on par or ahead from the beginning. But I don't worry too much about those that don't seem to be doing it "right." I know I knew many families in P.S. growing up that had kids doing the bare minimum as well due to not caring or other things going on in their lives. There are bad parents everywhere, ps and hs.

[....]

Be careful with your generalizations. We have public and suburban schools in the Chicago area that begin Latin and sometimes even ancient Greek in the elementary grades. Many schools also teach Spanish, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Mandarin, and Hebrew (<--- the languages taught at my son's high school as well as Latin) starting at some point in the elementary years.

 

Yeah, I was trying to use it as an example. I think I had too much coffee. :D I feel like this whole discussion is just a bunch of generalizations.

 

We know all about the Chicago public school system. We're originally from there. My husband graduated from Lane Tech (that's what it used to be called - I think they changed the name). He only took German - no Latin.

[MBM]

Yeah, I was trying to use it as an example. I think I had too much coffee. :D I feel like this whole discussion is just a bunch of generalizations.

 

We know all about the Chicago public school system. We're originally from there. My husband graduated from Lane Tech (that's what it used to be called - I think they changed the name). He only took German - no Latin.

 

Yeah. I can't blame homeschoolers for being upset, especially if they're trying hard to accomplish something for their kids' sakes and are lumped together with those who aren't.

 

I think it still is called Lane Tech -- good school -- but I'm not sure. We're in a suburb. Just recently, a lot of schools have finally begun to offer more foreign languages, even immersion programs. Now I just hope they can survive all the budget problems. Ugh. :(

[beaners]

I also have no problem with some accountability. I'd wonder what percentage of these catastrophic homeschooling failures are from the states with no oversight.

 

I also agree requiring standardized testing is not optimal for the reasons mentioned - in our state we can choose between a standardized test, portfolio, or narrative progress report. I do the latter every year and actually enjoy it - I love looking back over what we've done each year. It usually makes me feel much better about what we've accomplished.

 

But really, with some choices in how to report, I don't find it onerous at all, and I think having some accountability makes people less likely flounder. (Though I have to say I'm glad I'm not in a state with an evaluator required.) And I'm also worried about the slippery slope.

 

I've lived in a state with medium-to-high requirements and now in a state with very little. I see no difference in the homeschoolers. In Ohio, one of the choices was a portfolio review, so a few homeschooling moms with teaching credentials would rubber stamp anyone who was willing to pay them $30-40 each year. For example, one didn't require any documentation review, nor the child to be present. She just met with the parent and talked to them, then signed the paper.

 

 

I know that there is at least one local evaluator who works for free, but is basically willing to rubber stamp whatever you present. It doesn't seem like this kind of oversight really prevents failure any more than the public schools do.

 

It does worry me that my own family seems to value education more than other families I've been exposed to locally, but that concern isn't limited to homeschooling families. Our local school district isn't awful, but education isn't highly valued from what I've seen around here.

[justamouse]

I'll gladly agree to allow my local PS to have input over what my children are doing in our HS if they allow me to have input over what their students are doing. I'd *LOVE* to give them my $0.02 on all the ways their curricula is lacking :lol:

 

Lol, that's exactly the way I feel. I feel like saying, "You want me to fix that for you?"

[Aggie]

HS children often appear "behind" PS kids when it comes to writing in particular because HS curriculum tend to emphasize quality over quantity in writing. The typical PS elementary student writes a LOT but it's not of very high quality. I saw the samples that were on the wall of a 3rd grade classroom in our zoned PS- let's just say that I was underwhelmed. I'd rather get a single well-written paragraph out of my DD at this point then the kind of 5 paragraph essays I saw displayed at the PS.

 

Agree. My sister teaches 2nd grade and insists on her students writing one page 'essays' before they know what a sentence is. With that logic, they should be doing algebra even if they don't know what an equation is.:D

 

As a ps teacher for 15 years, I had more than one student come into my class more than 2 years behind. In Texas, when I taught, a student could only fail twice. So if a student failed K and 3rd, then didn't know the material in 7th, he got passed to 8th.

[Crimson Wife]

Agree. My sister teaches 2nd grade and insists on her students writing one page 'essays' before they know what a sentence is. With that logic, they should be doing algebra even if they don't know what an equation is.:D

 

Don't even get me started on the CA state math standards where children in the elementary grades have to do "algebraic thinking" even when many of them don't have their basic facts memorized. :glare: You gotta walk before you can run, people!

[Jean in Newcastle]

This was EXACTLY what I thought. First off, how rude. I think I would have asked her if she went to ps or was homeschooled (I'm fairly certain you could guess which one), and then point at that her ps education certainly worked out. But maybe that's just me.

 

I actually regret that I shared that her job is as a cashier. I live in a small city that is more like Mayberry in some ways. Yes, she was doing her job as cashier while we chatted but she knows that I homeschool etc. because she is part of our neighborhood and knows who my children and I are.

 

I don't like stereotypes and while I know that she (and her sister who is the principal) were making a negative one against homeschoolers, I don't want to rely on the homeschool stereotypes that are in our favor either. It has been eye-opening to me to see the insights of Heather and Joanne and others who have an objectivity that I don't have because I'm limited to my own two children.

[Matryoshka]

I'll gladly agree to allow my local PS to have input over what my children are doing in our HS if they allow me to have input over what their students are doing. I'd *LOVE* to give them my $0.02 on all the ways their curricula is lacking :lol:

 

:lol::lol: I may be sending my older two to the local high school next year, and I have already been in contact with them trying to nose out what curriculum they're using and if I think it's up to snuff. Trying very hard to keep any negative opinions to myself... :tongue_smilie: At the very least I have been able to determine that while they fell for the Everyday Math boondoggle in the elementary schools, their middle/high school math materials are traditional stuff.

 

Even though I've had zero in-person contact with the public schools up till I initiated those calls, I think it will be in my benefit that they've gotten all our progress reports over the years, so will have a better idea for placement.

Edited August 30, 2011 by matroyshka

[Momof3littles]

I don't put much weight on public school standards. In many ways I consider them very much a "minimum." However, I believe part of the beauty of home education is the flexibility we have to choose curricula that may be excellent, but not align neatly with PS standards. For example, I looked through our state's recently, and noticed I've never directly taught probability to my rising 2nd grader, who is moving into Singapore 4a. When I went over it with him (for fun), he understood it easily, but I've never used a curriculum that matched up exactly with state standards in my state. I think there are lots of examples like that if you look at HSing vs PSing, and it simply does not concern me. I choose the best curriculum that I can, and my choices may not always neatly align with when my state thinks concepts should be taught. I personally don't think it is a detriment to learn it in year 4 vs. year 2, etc. in many cases. Singapore teaches long division "early" as compared to many PS schools. Our history likely does not align with the district's idea of what my child should know at X grade. I don't really have any desire to chase the PS standards. They don't hold much meaning for me at all, really.

 

ITA about HSers returning to school being representative of a specific group, making it extremely tough to generalize one's experiences with that group to the larger population of HSers.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Momof3littles
edited to fix a few nak typos

[Food4Thought]

I can say the one thing that I am sick and tired of is people trotting out 'better late than early philosophy' for every reason under the sun not to do formal school work. It's become a catch phrase and misrepresents the author's point IMO. I also think that a higher percentage of 'P' parents (on the MBTI), especially "NFP" parents who struggle the most with structure/authority/institutions are leading this vanguard of anti-academic 'schooling' (note: NOT all P's/NFP's are like this and I don't want to imply that - but the most 'wing it' homeschoolers I have soon who struggled to keep things together were that type). The philosophy I have seen espoused became something like this: "Children will figure out what they need to learn - I'll let them figure it out and help if they ask. If they want to learn to write then they'll figure out the best way to form letters via trial/error [Why not get a handwriting program???]).

 

I get what you are saying here. I am one of those people who tends to promote Better Late Than Early and John Holt's Learning All the Time but you are right to say that the philosophies are taken out of their original context. I believe in letting kids play, during the years that play is the way they learn. However, I do think a lot of people are using this as an excuse not to do the necessary work. When done properly and with an eye toward academics, unschooling could be a heckuva lot harder than public school at home. But that's not always the case. I've only seen a few unschoolers who made me think, "They're doing it right." (And as my children grow, I'm moving away from unschooling and into more traditional forms of teaching. I think it's meant to be a season in their education.)

[sheryl]

My memory is faint on this, so bear with me..."I think".........

 

There was an USA Today story written on the pros to homeshooling around 1990 (give or take 1-2 years, maybe). If my memory is correct (and it may not be) :tongue_smilie: the article stated that homeschooled kids preform above level or at least on par. This was nearly 20 years ago, but I can only imagine homeschooling, like wine, improves with age! :001_smile:

[Alte Veste Academy]

My memory is faint on this, so bear with me..."I think".........

 

There was an USA Today story written on the pros to homeshooling around 1990 (give or take 1-2 years, maybe). If my memory is correct (and it may not be) :tongue_smilie: the article stated that homeschooled kids preform above level or at least on par. This was nearly 20 years ago, but I can only imagine homeschooling, like wine, improves with age! :001_smile:

 

I don't know. I kind of feel the opposite, maybe because of personal experience. I have had three good friends and countless acquaintances become enamored of the idea of homeschooling, take the plunge without really thinking seriously about the implications and their level of commitment, then put their kids back in school when it wasn't the dream they had envisioned. I think people who did it 20 years ago were less likely to be doing it on a whim. I think it's become so much more common and accepted that people, including many who aren't cut out for it at all (and I know personally that they exist!), are more likely to give it a try. I imagine that this has had some effect on the numbers.

[mcconnellboys]

I have not seen studies done, but you might inquire of HSLDA to see if they know of any. They are generally good about answering questions.

 

I only know that my older son wanted to go to high school and he wanted to enter as a sophomore, so I only asked them to grant 7 or 8 credits and they granted every credit I asked for. I had documentation of what was done and outside corroboration of his work (not just my own courses and scoring), but I was not questioned on anything. I also had to provide my packet info when he applied to colleges to cover his freshman level work and none of the schools questioned me, either. He had no trouble gaining admissions to multiple universities.

 

He had no problems with his high school courses, either, by the way, and maintained the same sort of grades he made with me.

 

I would tend to think that at least some kids "returning" to public schools are doing so because their parents cannot or will not school them properly at home and those children may well be behind. Does this mean that such a thing is true across the board, however? Certainly not....

[Stacy in NJ]

Barely literate kids graduate from ps all the time. Community colleges are filled with kids taking remedial classes. Accountability via NCLB and standardized testing is an absolute joke. Have you read about the epidemic of teacher facilitated cheating in Atlanta and NY?

 

The difference is that they would be accountable. If Joanne tells they that they are going to fail the class, the parents can simply pull them out and choose not to report it on a high school transcript.

 

This is why I don't have a problem with mandatory homeschool testing and reporting. I think that a large percentage of homeschoolers are proving that they do need oversight.

[Denisemomof4]

So what writing/language arts program did he use;):D

 

Rod and Staff through 8th grade, Jensen's grammar in 9th, some Write Shop (it was ok) and some Writing Strands. I used writing programs to supplement R&S and both my boys did very well.

 

This thread is surprising to me. Ds19 (now) said homeschooling WAS more rigorous than what he got in school. Having only one math curriculum for 8 years, though, didn't do him any favors. If I ever thought I'd consider ps for my girls (won't be an option ever unless something happens to me) I'd have them do other math curriculum along with what I like so they'd be prepared just in case.

[Stacy in NJ]

I don't buy that. 75% of the homeschooled kids here go to public or private school for high school. They do fine, in fact most that I know of take honors and ap classes. My own son is taking higher maths and science at the community college and has since he was 16. My dd is taking honors classes at a very rigorous private school. I suspect my younger two won't be as advanced, but that is fine by me. Every kid is different, and I'm okay with that.

 

The few children we know who have entered public school at the high school level have done well. The one homeschool graduate we know is doing very well in community college this year as a 16 yo early graduate.

 

My ds will begin ps this year as a 9th grader. Based upon our meeting with the school guidance counselor, a transcript I created, and a portfolio, my ds was placed in mostly honors level courses (science being the exception - no surprise there). Now, that doesn't mean he'll do well in those courses - yet. But two years behind? No.

 

And, by the way, we began homeschooling because ds was unable to read at the end of ps 2nd grade. Most of our early years homeschooling were concentrated on remediating his reading. He really didn't learn how to read fluently until about 11 yo. We were never as rigorous in our homeschool as some here.

[kitten18]

Don't even get me started on the CA state math standards where children in the elementary grades have to do "algebraic thinking" even when many of them don't have their basic facts memorized. :glare: You gotta walk before you can run, people!

 

I just printed off some sample test questions from the CA Department of Education for the 2nd grade math test. DD will be taking the tests next spring.

 

Here is one from the "Algebra" section:

 

What number goes in the box to make this number sentence true?

15+8 = __+15

 

A. 7

B. 8

C. 15

D. 23

 

Ta-Da ********Algebra**********

 

Looks like SM1A to me.:glare:

[SweetMissMagnolia]

not sure about any data but my sister is a teacher at a christian school----we were recently chatting and she said that at her school USUALLY if a kid that has been homeschooled comes into their school that they are put back at least 1 grade level.....she had seen it and had hoped that they would put the kid into her class anyway and she was sure she could get him caught up but they didn't.......she teaches 3rd grade so the kid was put into a 2nd grade class.....she has seened how HSing has worked for us but it doesn't work for everyone--so the ones being held back might be the ones in the situation where it wasn't working out and they had gotten behind that way.....but then again--not all curriculum covers everything the same way....could be alot of things.........

[LaxMom]

The oversight is interesting to me. Maryland is considered "high oversight" (read: undesirable) on the usual charts. You have to notify your county annually (by form the first time, just in general -email, letter - the rest of the time) and select one of two review options:

1. County review where a representative does a portfolio review with you twice a year. You only have to demonstrate you're covering the subjects normally taught at the same grade level, regularly, by showing samples of work. The reviewers may be retired teachers/administrators, bureaucrats stuck with the job or, in at least one county, homeschool moms contracted by the school district.

2. Umrella school, which is a church-exempt education ministry or church school, approved by the state. Because we (I direct one such umbrella) are church-exempt, the only burdens placed by us are administrative. Like parochial schools, we each set our own academic standards.

 

It has been my experience - and our group is set up to be unschooling friendly - that umbrella schools have much higher standards than the counties are allowed to impose. (and my unschoolers are tremendous educators - it's just not my, personal, style)

 

There are flakes and skates in every batch, but the umbrellas here tend to return the one's who can't meet standards back to the counties.

[Jenny in Atl]

The few children we know who have entered public school at the high school level have done well. The one homeschool graduate we know is doing very well in community college this year as a 16 yo early graduate.

 

My ds will begin ps this year as a 9th grader. Based upon our meeting with the school guidance counselor, a transcript I created, and a portfolio, my ds was placed in mostly honors level courses (science being the exception - no surprise there). Now, that doesn't mean he'll do well in those courses - yet. But two years behind? No.

 

And, by the way, we began homeschooling because ds was unable to read at the end of ps 2nd grade. Most of our early years homeschooling were concentrated on remediating his reading. He really didn't learn how to read fluently until about 11 yo. We were never as rigorous in our homeschool as some here.

 

If he's anything like my daughter... he will finish his first year with all A's. My daughter is in her 2nd year of all Honors & AP, and her teachers love her. There are stereotypes, and then there are real people.

[Plucky]

The few children we know who have entered public school at the high school level have done well. The one homeschool graduate we know is doing very well in community college this year as a 16 yo early graduate.

 

My ds will begin ps this year as a 9th grader. Based upon our meeting with the school guidance counselor, a transcript I created, and a portfolio, my ds was placed in mostly honors level courses (science being the exception - no surprise there). Now, that doesn't mean he'll do well in those courses - yet. But two years behind? No.

 

And, by the way, we began homeschooling because ds was unable to read at the end of ps 2nd grade. Most of our early years homeschooling were concentrated on remediating his reading. He really didn't learn how to read fluently until about 11 yo. We were never as rigorous in our homeschool as some here.

 

Thank you. I do worry that too many people will become discouraged and feel like they cannot homeschool effectively. Too much comparison can be a dangerous thing - it makes parents put kids in school when the education may not be better.

 

If each parent teaches and challenges their child to the best of their own kid's ability then there is no reason to worry. You cannot stuff more learning or knowledge into a child that isn't ready. I can't compare my own kids, and I try very hard not to.

 

I have one gifted math & science kid whom everyone on the planet seems to love and succeeds at nearly everything he does; one that is a natural writer and musician who has finally come out of her shell to have several very close girlfriends (an answer to prayer!); a musical genius who struggles socially and other academic subjects, but is making headway with consistency; and finally the baby - sings, dances, and usually gets one of the leading roles in plays and performances - oh, the tears she has over math.

 

If I held just one of my kids up as the model child/student all my other kids would be considered failures, because they are all different. Have standards, be consistent, model and encourage a good work ethic, encourage interests and build real relationships with your kids. It's a lot of work homeschooling, but it's just as much hard work to just be a good parent. I'd rather concentrate on my own kids' gifts and talents and work from there. I don't need to compare my kids to anyone else, not their siblings, and not some imaginary ideal.

[FO4UR]

I just printed off some sample test questions from the CA Department of Education for the 2nd grade math test. DD will be taking the tests next spring.

 

Here is one from the "Algebra" section:

 

What number goes in the box to make this number sentence true?

15+8 = __+15

 

A. 7

B. 8

C. 15

D. 23

 

Ta-Da ********Algebra**********

 

Looks like SM1A to me.:glare:

 

:lol: Yes, kindergarten...."algebra"

[Plucky]

If he's anything like my daughter... he will finish his first year with all A's. My daughter is in her 2nd year of all Honors & AP, and her teachers love her. There are stereotypes, and then there are real people.

 

:iagree:

[Old Dominion Heather]

Barely literate kids graduate from ps all the time. Community colleges are filled with kids taking remedial classes. Accountability via NCLB and standardized testing is an absolute joke. Have you read about the epidemic of teacher facilitated cheating in Atlanta and NY?

 

Some states/localities are doing better than others. Virginia turned down the NCLB money in favor of our own SOLs, at least we did once upon a time when I was teaching. It is rare, very rare, for a kid who is that far behind in PS around here, not to AT LEAST have had remediation, an evaluation, and possibly an IEP. School accreditation is tied to student performance, and teachers, being state employees, are not permitted to unionize, so there is really no such thing as true tenure.

 

So yes, there are kids who are being failed by the system, but they are not cases where no one has tried to help, or where no one cares. If the school tries to help ineffectually, then at least the parents don't blindly believe that that kids is AHEAD.

 

When I taught, every single formerly homeschooled student in my class was woefully behind, scoring between 20% and 50% on tests, and yes, behind in social development. Now, I freely admit, these were kids who were not doing well homeschooling, though their parents had enrolled them for various (non-academic) reasons: parents both needed to work, parents marriage issues, etc... Before anyone says that "these kids were in emotional turmoil," let me make clear that I taught in schools where there was crime, dealing, pregnancy, murder. It was a middle school. All the other kids were dealing with issues just as distressing, many much, much worse. Did I have kids in my class who were also scoring on a pathetically low level? NO. Not THAT low! Not without an IEP and special education. The mothers who enrolled these kids thought they were above average. Seriously. ABOVE. Not one thought their kid was behind in any area. They expected them to come in head and shoulders above the rest of the kids.

 

So, my anecdotal evidence is that the 2+ years behind thing is absolutely true in many (most?) cases. Also, I know that we did not let that kid stay at that 20% level. So, YES, the PS system helped him more than being homeschooled did. Hence my belief that accountability for homeschoolers is a very, very good thing. I realize that I am in the minority of homeschoolers on this issues and having to be accountable doesn't change what I teach, but I find having to report test scores to be just burdensome enough to weed out those who probably shouldn't be home educating their kids.

[WIS0320]

When I taught, every single formerly homeschooled student in my class was woefully behind, scoring between 20% and 50% on tests, and yes, behind in social development.

 

So, my anecdotal evidence is that the 2+ years behind thing is absolutely true in many (most?) cases. Also, I know that we did not let that kid stay at that 20% level. So, YES, the PS system helped him more than being homeschooled did. Hence my belief that accountability for homeschoolers is a very, very good thing.

 

I am also in VA. My mother is a 40 year public ed veteran and held a position in her county for a few years that encompassed reviewing all the homeschool portfolios/test scores (this was in the mid- 90s). When I told her we were going to homeschool I thought she was going to cry because she had seen such sub-par work submitted from homeschoolers during her time in that position.

 

I know I am a new homeschooler and most of the time we get slapped down on a forum like this where experience seems to be the name of the game and the only valid opinion. I understand, experience means a lot. But the idea that any homeschooling is better than public school is insane. I do support academic reporting for ALL underage students no matter what their educational venue is. Someone should be looking out for kids who do not deserve to suffer from educational neglect.

 

Every type of schooling can fail a child if the teacher isn't up to the job - homeschool, public school or private school. Children who are homeschooled have to hope that their parent(s) can handle the responsibility and not fall short since they are responsible for every single subject the child is instructed in. At least in public/private schools, around the age of 11, children have multiple teachers and one bad apple will not necessarily ruin their educational future. A lousy homeschool parent can seriously derail the future of their child, no matter what their intentions are.

 

I have lurked on WTM forums for a long time, much longer than I've posted, and I can tell you that I have seen time and time again posts from desperate, tired parents who KNOW they are not doing a good job looking for some kind of support from fellow homeschooling parents about seeking an alternative and there are always a plethora of posts telling the parent to not give up, to not succumb to public ed and so on. Homeschooling is not always the best choice and the community should own up to that fact.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I am also in VA. My mother is a 40 year public ed veteran and held a position in her county for a few years that encompassed reviewing all the homeschool portfolios/test scores (this was in the mid- 90s). When I told her we were going to homeschool I thought she was going to cry because she had seen such sub-par work submitted from homeschoolers during her time in that position.

 

I know I am a new homeschooler and most of the time we get slapped down on a forum like this where experience seems to be the name of the game and the only valid opinion. I understand, experience means a lot. But the idea that any homeschooling is better than public school is insane. I do support academic reporting for ALL underage students no matter what their educational venue is. Someone should be looking out for kids who do not deserve to suffer from educational neglect.

 

Every type of schooling can fail a child if the teacher isn't up to the job - homeschool, public school or private school. Children who are homeschooled have to hope that their parent(s) can handle the responsibility and not fall short since they are responsible for every single subject the child is instructed in. At least in public/private schools, around the age of 11, children have multiple teachers and one bad apple will not necessarily ruin their educational future. A lousy homeschool parent can seriously derail the future of their child, no matter what their intentions are.

 

I have lurked on WTM forums for a long time, much longer than I've posted, and I can tell you that I have seen time and time again posts from desperate, tired parents who KNOW they are not doing a good job looking for some kind of support from fellow homeschooling parents about seeking an alternative and there are always a plethora of posts telling the parent to not give up, to not succumb to public ed and so on. Homeschooling is not always the best choice and the community should own up to that fact.

 

Here's an experienced homeschooler who agrees with you. But I do think that every situation is unique. Sometimes one bad apple in ps will ruin a child's educational future because the child never recovers from a disasterous teacher or bullying situation. Sometimes a homeschooling parent expects perfection when no one (even a ps teacher) can deliver perfection. Homeschooling is a flexible educational method almost by definition and sometimes what doesn't look like school rigor, still works.

[Ria]

I am also in VA. My mother is a 40 year public ed veteran and held a position in her county for a few years that encompassed reviewing all the homeschool portfolios/test scores (this was in the mid- 90s). When I told her we were going to homeschool I thought she was going to cry because she had seen such sub-par work submitted from homeschoolers during her time in that position.

 

I know I am a new homeschooler and most of the time we get slapped down on a forum like this where experience seems to be the name of the game and the only valid opinion. I understand, experience means a lot. But the idea that any homeschooling is better than public school is insane. I do support academic reporting for ALL underage students no matter what their educational venue is. Someone should be looking out for kids who do not deserve to suffer from educational neglect.

 

Every type of schooling can fail a child if the teacher isn't up to the job - homeschool, public school or private school. Children who are homeschooled have to hope that their parent(s) can handle the responsibility and not fall short since they are responsible for every single subject the child is instructed in. At least in public/private schools, around the age of 11, children have multiple teachers and one bad apple will not necessarily ruin their educational future. A lousy homeschool parent can seriously derail the future of their child, no matter what their intentions are.

 

I have lurked on WTM forums for a long time, much longer than I've posted, and I can tell you that I have seen time and time again posts from desperate, tired parents who KNOW they are not doing a good job looking for some kind of support from fellow homeschooling parents about seeking an alternative and there are always a plethora of posts telling the parent to not give up, to not succumb to public ed and so on. Homeschooling is not always the best choice and the community should own up to that fact.

 

You are very articulate and said it perfectly. Thank you. I just hope people read what you wrote and take the message to heart. Parents, do your job - if you call yourself a homeschooler, you'd better be teaching. It's tough. It's a JOB.

[LaxMom]

You are very articulate and said it perfectly. Thank you. I just hope people read what you wrote and take the message to heart. Parents, do your job - if you call yourself a homeschooler, you'd better be teaching. It's tough. It's a JOB.

 

I agree with Ria, in the entirety of her response.

[Old Dominion Heather]

You are very articulate and said it perfectly. Thank you. I just hope people read what you wrote and take the message to heart. Parents, do your job - if you call yourself a homeschooler, you'd better be teaching. It's tough. It's a JOB.

 

:iagree:

It is a job and when people don't treat it like one, whether at home, private or public school, they fail their students.

[Old Dominion Heather]

I am also in VA. My mother is a 40 year public ed veteran and held a position in her county for a few years that encompassed reviewing all the homeschool portfolios/test scores (this was in the mid- 90s). When I told her we were going to homeschool I thought she was going to cry because she had seen such sub-par work submitted from homeschoolers during her time in that position.

 

I know I am a new homeschooler and most of the time we get slapped down on a forum like this where experience seems to be the name of the game and the only valid opinion. I understand, experience means a lot. But the idea that any homeschooling is better than public school is insane. I do support academic reporting for ALL underage students no matter what their educational venue is. Someone should be looking out for kids who do not deserve to suffer from educational neglect.

 

Every type of schooling can fail a child if the teacher isn't up to the job - homeschool, public school or private school. Children who are homeschooled have to hope that their parent(s) can handle the responsibility and not fall short since they are responsible for every single subject the child is instructed in. At least in public/private schools, around the age of 11, children have multiple teachers and one bad apple will not necessarily ruin their educational future. A lousy homeschool parent can seriously derail the future of their child, no matter what their intentions are.

 

I have lurked on WTM forums for a long time, much longer than I've posted, and I can tell you that I have seen time and time again posts from desperate, tired parents who KNOW they are not doing a good job looking for some kind of support from fellow homeschooling parents about seeking an alternative and there are always a plethora of posts telling the parent to not give up, to not succumb to public ed and so on. Homeschooling is not always the best choice and the community should own up to that fact.

 

Absolutely, positively true. :iagree:

[momma2three]

I am also in VA. My mother is a 40 year public ed veteran and held a position in her county for a few years that encompassed reviewing all the homeschool portfolios/test scores (this was in the mid- 90s). When I told her we were going to homeschool I thought she was going to cry because she had seen such sub-par work submitted from homeschoolers during her time in that position.

 

I know I am a new homeschooler and most of the time we get slapped down on a forum like this where experience seems to be the name of the game and the only valid opinion. I understand, experience means a lot. But the idea that any homeschooling is better than public school is insane. I do support academic reporting for ALL underage students no matter what their educational venue is. Someone should be looking out for kids who do not deserve to suffer from educational neglect.

 

Every type of schooling can fail a child if the teacher isn't up to the job - homeschool, public school or private school. Children who are homeschooled have to hope that their parent(s) can handle the responsibility and not fall short since they are responsible for every single subject the child is instructed in. At least in public/private schools, around the age of 11, children have multiple teachers and one bad apple will not necessarily ruin their educational future. A lousy homeschool parent can seriously derail the future of their child, no matter what their intentions are.

 

I have lurked on WTM forums for a long time, much longer than I've posted, and I can tell you that I have seen time and time again posts from desperate, tired parents who KNOW they are not doing a good job looking for some kind of support from fellow homeschooling parents about seeking an alternative and there are always a plethora of posts telling the parent to not give up, to not succumb to public ed and so on. Homeschooling is not always the best choice and the community should own up to that fact.

 

I am newer than you are, but I agree with you. I've spent a while lurking on another homeschooling board, and there were so many people writing about how behind their kids were, how they didn't know how to teach them, how they had personality conflicts with their kids. I only had a preschooler so I never spoke up, but sometimes a poster would say "why don't you try school? This is obviously not working?" and they would be slapped down immediately. Public school is a factory, public school is full of pregnant teen gang members, my child didn't learn to read until he was 16 and then he got a PhD at Harvard by the time he was 21. I found it so upsetting to read. I was so happy when someone there mentioned this board, because I feel like I've found where I belong.

 

I am sad to hear that it happens here too, but it's nice to hear that a bunch of people here recognize that it is an issue. I don't think that homeschooling is for everyone, and I think that's okay. I hope that it's for us, but if it's not then that's okay too.

 

I believe in strong standards and oversight, too. It's in society's best interest to make sure children are appropriately educated to be able to get a job, balance their bank account, read the newspaper, and so on.

[SW in IL]

My son and a friend's granddaughter are definitely a few grade levels behind. Not for a lack of trying on my or my friend's part. I've realized lately that my son is following his own path despite (or maybe because of) my attempts to homeschool him. My friend's granddaughter has learning disabilities and was picked on so badly in PS that her mom took her out and expected her (at age 7 or 8) to homeschool herself. Luckily for her, Grandma stepped in but she's behind due to her disabilities.

 

On the other side of the equation is another friend who was homeschooled and is now pleasantly surprising his college professors. He got a scholarship that covered his tuition and fees based on his ACT score. And my friend's other granddaughter who homeschooled for a few years before asking to back to PS and is now a straight-A student (she entered as a freshman in high school ahead of her peers).

 

So, 2 good examples of homeschooling and 2 not so good. It depends on the family, the child, and the resources. Same as success in pretty much anything.

 

Sue

[msjones]

I always bite my tongue when people say teachers and students "do nothing all day" in public schools.

 

Certainly time is taken up by group management procedures. No debate there.

 

But when I taught public school I had a very carefully planned schedule. Those kids worked. And I taught lessons. I did not ever just hand them a book and let them figure it out. I taught. They worked. I monitored. I planned. I did the very best I could to reteach for those who needed it and to supplement and challenge those who were ready and eager for more. I loved my work and I am confident that I did a good job.

 

There were many teachers who did the same.

 

I often see homeschooling parents looking for the program that requires the very least amount of effort from them. I am sure there are children who learn well enough that way, but I am also sure there are children who would do much better with a mom who actually taught them -- instead of just checking their workbook pages.

[FO4UR]

I am newer than you are, but I agree with you. I've spent a while lurking on another homeschooling board, and there were so many people writing about how behind their kids were, how they didn't know how to teach them, how they had personality conflicts with their kids.

 

 

Is that not a purpose of this board? Where else is a parent to go to get real advice on HSing? Going from those high ideals to where the rubber meets the road is a bumpy ride sometimes (as I'm learning).

 

I've got a dc that is difficult to teach. He just.doesn't.fit.the.mold! He's smart, but struggles with reading. Learning to read is hard WORK for him, so he gives me some "personality conflict" as well.(:lol:) The deal is...I'm the best chance he's got, even if I have to let go of some of my high ideals for the 3rd grade. He's actually at grade level with reading, and his math and writing aren't suffering for his lopsided skills. PS cannot offer 1-on-1 tutoring for 3+ hours per day for one child. PS will push exactly where he needs to NOT be pushed this year.

 

I don't lower my standards for him, but I do postpone some things.

 

 

When people post about their struggles on this board, I assume it's b/c they are seeking HELP. Sometimes, it is better to take some time to breathe before tackling the problem. Sometimes, there are primary issues to deal with before you can deal with the visible issues.

 

Then there is that element of normal child development. I think the PS model is against all wisdom of the ages, as far as educating children goes. There are successful "Better Late Than Early" stories...b/c the point (I think) is to be aware of your child's development before sacrificing soul for the sake of rigor.

 

That said, bring on the rigor...

 

 

 

I believe in strong standards and oversight, too. It's in society's best interest to make sure children are appropriately educated to be able to get a job, balance their bank account, read the newspaper, and so on.

 

 

I agree that it is in society's best interest for those things to take place, but I don't believe our gov't has found any good methods for enacting them. Forcing HSers to abide by PS standards would greatly reduce the quality of education received by many children.

 

There are many PSers who cannot attain your list. That can't be an excuse to be lax in our HSing, but it's the truth.

[Angjune]

When I decided to homeschool my daughter last year, the only homeschool parents I knew were from this forum. Thus, I assumed that everyone had pretty high standards for their kids.

 

My daughter took just one class through a co op and was shocked at the total lack of initiative with her classmates. Most never did their homework - even though it was minimal. Also, the teacher would have to go over topics three or four times and then the kids would still forget what they just learned. She discovered that one girl studied for maybe an hour or two a day (she was probably in 6th or 7th grade). This same girl wondered why my daughter wasn't allowed to text all day.:glare:

[Tree House Academy]

You can't lump kids into a category like that just because they are homeschooled. All families and students are different. A lot of ps kids are also two or three grade levels behind...but the "no child left behind" law "protects" them from being held back (thus possibly ridiculed by peers) only to find that when they are seniors in high school, they can hardly read. The comment she made to you is just stupid - on the same level that racial remarks are stupid!