"Most homeschool kids go back to ps 2 years behind"

[stripe]

I don't know. I kind of feel the opposite, maybe because of personal experience. I have had three good friends and countless acquaintances become enamored of the idea of homeschooling, take the plunge without really thinking seriously about the implications and their level of commitment, then put their kids back in school when it wasn't the dream they had envisioned. I think people who did it 20 years ago were less likely to be doing it on a whim. I think it's become so much more common and accepted that people, including many who aren't cut out for it at all (and I know personally that they exist!), are more likely to give it a try. I imagine that this has had some effect on the numbers.

 

My husband was told by a friend that most people he knew who tried to hs tired out of it and put their kids back in school. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with a temporary hsing few years, but not if it's a total educational disaster. I know people like this.

 

Also, I don't see why homeschooling would improve with age from one family to another. Maybe one parent improved over 15 years, but new parents wouldn't. Frankly, I wonder if one shouldn't look to other examples of complacency. When there were no treatments for HIV, heavily affected communities (such as gay men) saw their friends and acquaintances dying fast and eventually got scared. As a consequence, rates of HIV prevention measures increased. As antiretroviral medicines became available, and HIV+ people were able to live long and felt healthy, people became sloppy again. Because there was no fear -- HIV no longer seemed like an awful disease, just one that, if you got, required a lot of pills. I think perhaps homeschooling is more like this than a bunch of fine wine. (Or else for some people it's turned into vinegar.)

[Tree House Academy]

I am also in VA. My mother is a 40 year public ed veteran and held a position in her county for a few years that encompassed reviewing all the homeschool portfolios/test scores (this was in the mid- 90s). When I told her we were going to homeschool I thought she was going to cry because she had seen such sub-par work submitted from homeschoolers during her time in that position.

 

I know I am a new homeschooler and most of the time we get slapped down on a forum like this where experience seems to be the name of the game and the only valid opinion. I understand, experience means a lot. But the idea that any homeschooling is better than public school is insane. I do support academic reporting for ALL underage students no matter what their educational venue is. Someone should be looking out for kids who do not deserve to suffer from educational neglect.

 

Every type of schooling can fail a child if the teacher isn't up to the job - homeschool, public school or private school. Children who are homeschooled have to hope that their parent(s) can handle the responsibility and not fall short since they are responsible for every single subject the child is instructed in. At least in public/private schools, around the age of 11, children have multiple teachers and one bad apple will not necessarily ruin their educational future. A lousy homeschool parent can seriously derail the future of their child, no matter what their intentions are.

 

I have lurked on WTM forums for a long time, much longer than I've posted, and I can tell you that I have seen time and time again posts from desperate, tired parents who KNOW they are not doing a good job looking for some kind of support from fellow homeschooling parents about seeking an alternative and there are always a plethora of posts telling the parent to not give up, to not succumb to public ed and so on. Homeschooling is not always the best choice and the community should own up to that fact.

 

My MIL is also a veteran teacher and she was much like your mom when we chose to homeschool. There are a lot of parents out there who just do not care what their kids are learning (or if they are learning at all?!). The proof is in the pudding when it comes to schooling your children. We enroll through an umbrella school that doesn't require testing...but we test. I hold myself accountable to my kids and I give them a standardized test each year to make sure they are advancing. Besides the growth I see in them, the test scores back me up. Tests aren't everything - but I can tell you that, more than once, my MIL has come to me telling me that she appreciates how hard I work and how well I teach my children. That means a lot to me.

[Mrs Twain]

I'll admit that I try to cover everything in "What your Blank Grader Should Know" guides, and WTM book, as well as doing our own thing

 

This is an interesting thread. I didn't mean to read the whole thing because it was so long, but here I am at the end of it.

 

Similar to the above poster, I try very hard to keep up with what my kids are "supposed" to know. I use the Core Knowledge K-8 Sequence as well as my state's standards of learning in various subjects to help plan what we are going to cover (though I cover additional material besides what the standards say). I spend time figuring out what my local school is covering. I give my kids a standardized test every year to see how they measure up compared to the average. I think I have a good idea on where my kids are compared to the average kid in the country and the average kid in our neighborhood.

 

A lot of people knock people like me who do "school at home" or who model their homeschool after a traditional school, but I can see the benefits in at least paying attention to and keeping my kids up-to-date with what the neighbors' kids are doing, in addition to everything else we are covering in our homeschool.

[SeekingHim77]

My friend homeschooled for 2 years and then put her kids in the local Christian school. They were a little "behind" but the school put them in the grades they were supposed to be in and they caught up very quickly.

 

I'm not so sure that these kids are "behind" academically. Maybe they are just "behind" in mass schooling protocol. Maybe it's just a transition period. I mean, a classroom environment is very different from a homeschool. It takes time to get used all that goes along with it. If the school just gives many of these kids time to settle in, maybe the gap will close significantly.

 

I still think it's ridiculous to try and base my homeschool on local public school standards. Public school standards change from school to school, just like homeschool standards. I love the freedom that I have to choose what I believe to be important at each stage of my child's life rather than what someone else believes is important for all children.

[Laura Corin]

If he's anything like my daughter... he will finish his first year with all A's. My daughter is in her 2nd year of all Honors & AP, and her teachers love her. There are stereotypes, and then there are real people.

 

Both my boys finished their first year at school with all As. Hobbes got the class prize. I bumped into H's PE teacher today and he was full of praise for H's enthusiasm: "I've never known such a smiley child. Even when he ran straight into the hockey goal posts and got an enormous lump on his head, the only thing he was upset about was having to leave the field to go and see the nurse."

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

Parents, do your job - if you call yourself a homeschooler, you'd better be teaching. It's tough. It's a JOB.

 

When people say to me, "I couldn't home educate my children," I'm not too quick to say, "Of course you could." I tend to reply, "Well, it's a big responsibility and it doesn't work if you are not ready to take that on."

 

Laura

[Crimson Wife]

I just printed off some sample test questions from the CA Department of Education for the 2nd grade math test. DD will be taking the tests next spring.

 

Here is one from the "Algebra" section:

 

What number goes in the box to make this number sentence true?

15+8 = __+15

 

A. 7

B. 8

C. 15

D. 23

 

Ta-Da ********Algebra**********

 

Looks like SM1A to me.:glare:

 

Yes, SM includes algebraic thinking in the early grades. However, they don't have students solving those types of problems until *AFTER* the facts have been memorized. I'm fine with early introduction of algebra (my oldest started Hands-On Equations towards the end of Right Start C). But not for students who haven't mastered the basic addition/subtraction/multiplication/division facts!

[stripe]

Not to mention that every test has questions at a range of material. Not every question on a second grade math test should be about what was covered in the last week of 2nd grade.

 

Is 8+15=15+8 in 1a? There is nothing wrong with doing>20 addition in2nd grade and only <20 in first. The Commutative property and the rest are actually pretty advanced conceptually. I took an upper division math class in college where we spent a lot of time on them.

[readinmom]

In contrast to the homeschoolers,I wonder how many ps students are behind "state standards" who have been enrolled in public schools all of their lives.

 

I really hate it when people make the comments. DS 14 had a horrible time in public school. He was happy, excited about school, until everything became all about the test.

 

He is finally discovering the joy of learning for the sake of learning. He loves science and history, particularly with no strings attached.

[LaxMom]

test

I am newer than you are, but I agree with you. I've spent a while lurking on another homeschooling board, and there were so many people writing about how behind their kids were, how they didn't know how to teach them, how they had personality conflicts with their kids. I only had a preschooler so I never spoke up, but sometimes a poster would say "why don't you try school? This is obviously not working?" and they would be slapped down immediately. Public school is a factory, public school is full of pregnant teen gang members, my child didn't learn to read until he was 16 and then he got a PhD at Harvard by the time he was 21. I found it so upsetting to read. I was so happy when someone there mentioned this board, because I feel like I've found where I belong.

 

I am sad to hear that it happens here too, but it's nice to hear that a bunch of people here recognize that it is an issue. I don't think that homeschooling is for everyone, and I think that's okay. I hope that it's for us, but if it's not then that's okay too.

 

I believe in strong standards and oversight, too. It's in society's best interest to make sure children are appropriately educated to be able to get a job, balance their bank account, read the newspaper, and so on.

 

Was that, perchance, the MDC boards? I only asked because there is a very vocal radical unschooling / Waldorf purist crew there. I recall being called <essentially> a fascist many years ago when I dared fly my freak "Classical" flag. I enjoyed my time on their boards very much, but am grateful that some posters booted me toward the (old) boards here. ;)

 

Quote:

 

 

 

Is that not a purpose of this board? Where else is a parent to go to get real advice on HSing? Going from those high ideals to where the rubber meets the road is a bumpy ride sometimes (as I'm learning).

 

I've got a dc that is difficult to teach. He just.doesn't.fit.the.mold! He's smart, but struggles with reading. Learning to read is hard WORK for him, so he gives me some "personality conflict" as well.() The deal is...I'm the best chance he's got, even if I have to let go of some of my high ideals for the 3rd grade. He's actually at grade level with reading, and his math and writing aren't suffering for his lopsided skills. PS cannot offer 1-on-1 tutoring for 3+ hours per day for one child. PS will push exactly where he needs to NOT be pushed this year.

 

Personality conflicts happen whenever more than one person is in collaboration. I think the mention of "personality conflicts" in the context momma2three mentioned is in the shrugging "well, I guess there's nothing to do" way. I hear that a lot from people, regardless of their educational venue.

 

I don't lower my standards for him, but I do postpone some things.

 

That's the point. We all adjust to challenge our children appropriately. Rigor is in the challenge, not the "brand name" of what you're using.

 

When people would rather not challenge their children, they should not homeschool. (Ditto when they, themselves, do not wish to be challenged) That is when it falls apart, when everyone stops trying altogether and simply marches along the path of least resistance to an unsavory educational end.

 

When people post about their struggles on this board, I assume it's b/c they are seeking HELP. Sometimes, it is better to take some time to breathe before tackling the problem. Sometimes, there are primary issues to deal with before you can deal with the visible issues.

 

They are asking for help. And people here are very generous in providing information, suggestions, etc. But the posters asking for help aren't asking and then sitting on their arses and waiting for some sort of magic to happen. They are looking to fill in their own information deficits and help their child learn.

 

Then there is that element of normal child development. I think the PS model is against all wisdom of the ages, as far as educating children goes. There are successful "Better Late Than Early" stories...b/c the point (I think) is to be aware of your child's development before sacrificing soul for the sake of rigor.

 

That said, bring on the rigor...

 

I agree. Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of "purists" who seemed to have missed that chapter of the book they cleave so vehemently to.

[WIS0320]

ETA: On second thought, I think I am too new around here to get into this discussion. I can see on the main board in other threads where people really feel like fingers are pointing at them and that has not been my intention. I've clearly edited this post and I'm bowing out. I'll head back over to the K-8 board to agonize some more about my curriculum choices. :-)

Edited September 1, 2011 by drexel

[kitten18]

Yes, SM includes algebraic thinking in the early grades. However, they don't have students solving those types of problems until *AFTER* the facts have been memorized. I'm fine with early introduction of algebra (my oldest started Hands-On Equations towards the end of Right Start C). But not for students who haven't mastered the basic addition/subtraction/multiplication/division facts!

Oh, I agree. It was me rolling my eyes at the state test. I think they (the state board of ed. and the schools) want to be able to tell the parents that their 2nd grader is learning algebra (some of the questions I saw in that section were really just number bonds).

 

***We are new to SM this year (starting 2A and backtracking a bit into 1A and 1B to make sure we have all the strategies) so I'm definitely not an expert on the sequence.

[k10coon]

I must disagree that "the whole community is dragged down" when somebody doesn't educate their children to somebody else's standards.

 

The way a parent educates their children reflects only on that parent and their children. Not on me or you (collective) you.

[Joanne]

I must disagree that "the whole community is dragged down" when somebody doesn't educate their children to somebody else's standards.

 

The way a parent educates their children reflects only on that parent and their children. Not on me or you (collective) you.

 

Not true. Perceived lack can (and has) lead to increased and invasive/intrusive accountability interventions in terms of government and homeschoolers.

[justamouse]

I am also in VA. My mother is a 40 year public ed veteran and held a position in her county for a few years that encompassed reviewing all the homeschool portfolios/test scores (this was in the mid- 90s). When I told her we were going to homeschool I thought she was going to cry because she had seen such sub-par work submitted from homeschoolers during her time in that position.

 

I know I am a new homeschooler and most of the time we get slapped down on a forum like this where experience seems to be the name of the game and the only valid opinion. I understand, experience means a lot. But the idea that any homeschooling is better than public school is insane. I do support academic reporting for ALL underage students no matter what their educational venue is. Someone should be looking out for kids who do not deserve to suffer from educational neglect.

 

Every type of schooling can fail a child if the teacher isn't up to the job - homeschool, public school or private school. Children who are homeschooled have to hope that their parent(s) can handle the responsibility and not fall short since they are responsible for every single subject the child is instructed in. At least in public/private schools, around the age of 11, children have multiple teachers and one bad apple will not necessarily ruin their educational future. A lousy homeschool parent can seriously derail the future of their child, no matter what their intentions are.

 

I have lurked on WTM forums for a long time, much longer than I've posted, and I can tell you that I have seen time and time again posts from desperate, tired parents who KNOW they are not doing a good job looking for some kind of support from fellow homeschooling parents about seeking an alternative and there are always a plethora of posts telling the parent to not give up, to not succumb to public ed and so on. Homeschooling is not always the best choice and the community should own up to that fact.

 

I totally agree with you. That said-and yes, again, I agree with you- sometimes a parent is at the disillusionment stage, running headlong into the miserable stage and doesn't know that awakening and true love are coming up around the corner. I think that's why those "chin up, don't succumb" posts are written. But like any relationship isn't right, not every homeschooling choice is, either, and it's all very, very subjective.

[ma23peas]

Jean, I agree there is a perception out there by principals...my college friend majored in elementary ed and is now a principal...I was pre-med/Chemistry and moved to the same city she lived in (15 years later)..I was so excited to see her at a football game...but when I told her that I homeschooled..I got the AWFUL look and you could just see her running through her mind, "How are you qualified to teach?"...She made a comment about how she hoped the homeschooling community would get their act together and have standards...sadly, that is the last time we ever talked..six years later, I would love to have her see how well the homeschooling community is doing without govt. standards...

 

I think the only segment of homeschooling she 'sees' are the failures...most of whom probably suffer from learning disabilities and families in dire need of the alternative methods that local schools make more affordable...on the other hand, my sister just let me know that she is taking her daughter out of ps at age 10 b/c she is not reading and the system has failed her...

[Donna T.]

I recently had a conversation with the Administrator of a private school in my area. She told me that homeschooling "never works", that it "always fails" and that she is totally opposed to it for all children. Later in the conversation, I told her that if my 4th grader entered her school that he may need to go back to the 3rd grade because the math that we use follows a non-traditional scope and sequence and that the English book he is working in is actually a grade 3 book (Rod & Staff). She laughed and said, "Oh no, we would definately put him in 4th grade. It's not the homeschooled child's academics that I worry about, it's everything else." When I asked her what she meant by "everything else", she said, "You know, everything other than academics." She said that the homeschooled children who enter her school are AHEAD academically but she just has this fear that they are developing unhealthy relationships with other people!! If we had ended the conversation earlier, I would have been left with the impression that she thought homeschooling was "always" a failure because the children aren't really learning and that is not at all what she meant!!

[Jean in Newcastle]

I recently had a conversation with the Administrator of a private school in my area. She told me that homeschooling "never works", that it "always fails" and that she is totally opposed to it for all children. Later in the conversation, I told her that if my 4th grader entered her school that he may need to go back to the 3rd grade because the math that we use follows a non-traditional scope and sequence and that the English book he is working in is actually a grade 3 book (Rod & Staff). She laughed and said, "Oh no, we would definately put him in 4th grade. It's not the homeschooled child's academics that I worry about, it's everything else." When I asked her what she meant by "everything else", she said, "You know, everything other than academics." She said that the homeschooled children who enter her school are AHEAD academically but she just has this fear that they are developing unhealthy relationships with other people!! If we had ended the conversation earlier, I would have been left with the impression that she thought homeschooling was "always" a failure because the children aren't really learning and that is not at all what she meant!!

 

See, that seems weird to me because with the exception of kids that I know are on the spectrum, all the homeschool kids I know do just fine in social situations in the neighborhood, the local Y etc. with kids who are public schooled. (And many of the kids on the spectrum learn to do just fine too.)

[lovelaughs_times_three]

I agree....and my post was sort of, flippant? ingenuous? meh? :lol:

 

After 8 years of homeschooling.....I've realized that I don't much care what the public school system has to say about my homeschooling. My kids are bright, inquisitive, well-rounded individuals.....they get along with other people..regardless of their ages, etc. They are kind and loving to one another. They ask thoughtful questions and are always loving to learn. We may be behind in some things and ahead in others....that is the way of life.

 

Whew!!! Thanks, PamInMN!!! I needed that reminder of what is important to me! I was reading this thread and going into a panic. Am I "rigorous"? What does that mean?? Are my kids going to be behind???? Am I doing them a huge injustice to be homeschooling them? Am I failing them and I don't even realize it!!???

 

Because you all don't know me, I feel obligated to add: I do take homeschooling seriously. We work 6 hours on school most days. But I have 3 kids at 3 levels, so sometimes I wish I had more one-on-one time with each. I guess I just wanted to say that I am not one who just hopes they "get it" by some kind of osmosis. I do push my kids.....

 

but.....*WHEW!* Such relief came over me when I read your post! I want my kids to do well academically. Education is very important to me. As I was reading this thread and starting to truly worry about homeschooling in general, your post pulled me back from the "edge" - so to speak.

 

You know what? Even if it turns out that my kids are "behind" in the end, I asked myself, "Would I regret homeschooling them?" And my answer came back to me as a resounding "NO!" I like more than just the academic value of homeschooling (and I have SEEN a benefit in academics!). I also like how my kids are turning out in other, very important, areas. They have a confidence that I never had. They are kind and thoughtful. They are curious and love to learn. They have an inner peace that others have seen and commented on. They are developing passions and interests for their future, and they have the time to focus on these passions. They are less bothered and affected by what is IN than in what makes sense to them. They are independent thinkers. They are creative and they have the time to pursue this creativity.

 

In the end, there is more to homeschooling, for me, than simply academics. Thanks, again, PamInMN for reminding me of that.

[creekland]

ETA: On second thought, I think I am too new around here to get into this discussion. I can see on the main board in other threads where people really feel like fingers are pointing at them and that has not been my intention. I've clearly edited this post and I'm bowing out. I'll head back over to the K-8 board to agonize some more about my curriculum choices. :-)

 

:confused: We all lose when people don't share their thoughts. I'm bummed...

 

On a different note, I enjoy reading on the high school and college boards when people write about what their students are doing. We (collective we) certainly have students on the hive board who are doing quite well academically and otherwise! Mine certainly have done better since I pulled them out to homeschool. Even my youngest who has chosen to go back to ps has more joy in learning and a better work ethic. He also certainly wasn't behind when he returned. He's in the school's top classes for his grade and is well liked with students and teachers. I don't regret pulling any of mine out when we did.

[stripe]

Just today I received a digest of a post from a nice enough homeschool group that included the flip comment that public school students are just memorizing facts so they can "spew" them on a standardized test. Yes, it's nice to know that one's homeschool child learned a lot using such-and-such a book/curriculum, but it's tiresome that public school even needs to be brought into the discussion and does not help to understand whether a certain path is a good one. It's sort of a straw man, really -- "Look over there at that public school student drooling! He memorized his multiplication table for a test, and now he forgot it! What's 2x3? Ha, I knew you'd forgotten!"

[Pam Wilhelm]

Whew!!! Thanks, PamInMN!!! I needed that reminder of what is important to me! I was reading this thread and going into a panic. Am I "rigorous"? What does that mean?? Are my kids going to be behind???? Am I doing them a huge injustice to be homeschooling them? Am I failing them and I don't even realize it!!???

 

Because you all don't know me, I feel obligated to add: I do take homeschooling seriously. We work 6 hours on school most days. But I have 3 kids at 3 levels, so sometimes I wish I had more one-on-one time with each. I guess I just wanted to say that I am not one who just hopes they "get it" by some kind of osmosis. I do push my kids.....

 

but.....*WHEW!* Such relief came over me when I read your post! I want my kids to do well academically. Education is very important to me. As I was reading this thread and starting to truly worry about homeschooling in general, your post pulled me back from the "edge" - so to speak.

 

You know what? Even if it turns out that my kids are "behind" in the end, I asked myself, "Would I regret homeschooling them?" And my answer came back to me as a resounding "NO!" I like more than just the academic value of homeschooling (and I have SEEN a benefit in academics!). I also like how my kids are turning out in other, very important, areas. They have a confidence that I never had. They are kind and thoughtful. They are curious and love to learn. They have an inner peace that others have seen and commented on. They are developing passions and interests for their future, and they have the time to focus on these passions. They are less bothered and affected by what is IN than in what makes sense to them. They are independent thinkers. They are creative and they have the time to pursue this creativity.

 

In the end, there is more to homeschooling, for me, than simply academics. Thanks, again, PamInMN for reminding me of that.

 

Read my blog entry about this topic.... my link is down there somewhere \/ I was virtually in a panic over this thread, but feel alot better now. :D These kind of threads come up every now and then and I think it is good to read them but we also need to put it all into perspective. Most of us are doing a pretty good job homeschooling......some could do better........ and some shouldn't be doing it at all (trust me, I know what I speak of....don't even get me started on my sister who "homeschooled" her two boys and now they are barely able to read and can't hold jobs doing the most menial labor). Homeschooling is hard work! I remember Donna Young (on her old forum) jumping on me because I said that homeshcooling was a lot of fun.... as the years have gone by I see what she meant. HSing is work....mostly work....and sometimes fun...but a lot of work, nonetheless.

 

 

http://smokedpam.blogspot.com/2011/08/it-sneaks-in.html

[WIS0320]

:confused: We all lose when people don't share their thoughts. I'm bummed...

 

 

 

I posted some strong opinions and then changed my mind. Frankly, I don't think the homeschooling community in general likes being criticized and since I am such a new member of the community I figured I'd not antagonize at this point.

 

To sum up what I wrote earlier my opinion is that homeschoolers are quick to point out when public schools fail but support failing homeschooling efforts to the bitter end. I do not understand this and I think it damages the credibility of our entire community. Some homeschooling parents are simply not doing a good job and giving them a pass is outrageous. People are so concerned about protecting the rights of the homeschooling parents that the children in question seem to get lost in the shuffle.

 

I understand that some families have special situations in which a child has learning delays or has an aptitude in some area that is not academic (like dance) and struggles even with dedicated and consistent instruction from the parents. I am not talking about those families. I read the other threads on the board and I understand people feeling sensitive but I think it is clear that neither of those parents are non-schooling.

 

I am never going to be a homeschooler who believes that parents have ultimate rights over their children and can neglect them educationally. It isn't a parent's right to drop the ball and I think every single child in our country should have basic benchmarks that they need to achieve no matter their educational venue. I know many homeschoolers don't want any specific standards applied to their homeschools and I can understand that fear to a certain extent. But I still disagree. Parents should be held accountable for basic educational progress for their children.

[lovelaughs_times_three]

Read my blog entry about this topic.... my link is down there somewhere \/ I was virtually in a panic over this thread, but feel alot better now. :D These kind of threads come up every now and then and I think it is good to read them but we also need to put it all into perspective. Most of us are doing a pretty good job homeschooling......some could do better........ and some shouldn't be doing it at all (trust me, I know what I speak of....don't even get me started on my sister who "homeschooled" her two boys and now they are barely able to read and can't hold jobs doing the most menial labor). Homeschooling is hard work! I remember Donna Young (on her old forum) jumping on me because I said that homeshcooling was a lot of fun.... as the years have gone by I see what she meant. HSing is work....mostly work....and sometimes fun...but a lot of work, nonetheless.

 

 

http://smokedpam.blogspot.com/2011/08/it-sneaks-in.html

 

Great blog! Thanks for sharing! I also know a friend who "homeschooled" her kids. She basically pulled them out of school and did practically NOTHING for a year and a half! I was sick about it, as were many of my other homeschool friends. A couple of us confronted her out of concern for her children. She put them back in a local private school in the middle of the year, last year. They are SO behind!!!! Agg! I am sure that the principal and teachers there are saying the same thing about homeschoolers. It bugs me that they might think that her kids somehow represent all of us.

 

But at the same time, the word "rigor" worries me. What is it? What defines it? How much is enough? It reminds me of when my Mom used to ask if I've been praying enough lately. Geez! The question itself always caused self-doubt. After all, how can anyone ever claim to "pray enough"? In the same light, can I ever be rigorous enough? Especially in light of one of my other goals - to keep a LOVE of learning alive in my children and in myself!

 

I read this thread and I really do worry....am I enough for my kids?

[angela in ohio]

In the same light, can I ever be rigorous enough? Especially in light of one of my other goals - to keep a LOVE of learning alive in my children and in myself!

 

One of the biggest revelations for me in my early homeschooling days was that these two concepts, presented by many homeschoolers as opposite ends of a continuum, can actually be compatible goals. This has proven to be true in many of the homeschooling families I see IRL (and here): the more rigor, the more love of learning. :001_smile:

[Alte Veste Academy]

One of the biggest revelations for me in my early homeschooling days was that these two concepts, presented by many homeschoolers as opposite ends of a continuum, can actually be compatible goals. This has proven to be true in many of the homeschooling families I see IRL (and here): the more rigor, the more love of learning. :001_smile:

 

:iagree:

 

This is exactly what I am finding to be true with my kids in my third year of homeschooling. The more we do and the higher my expectations, the more joy in learning we have.

[lovelaughs_times_three]

One of the biggest revelations for me in my early homeschooling days was that these two concepts, presented by many homeschoolers as opposite ends of a continuum, can actually be compatible goals. This has proven to be true in many of the homeschooling families I see IRL (and here): the more rigor, the more love of learning. :001_smile:

 

So, what do you mean by rigor? How would you define it? What does it look like?

 

btw - I think I tend towards being a perfectionist when the goal is important to me. So, I mean this question with all sincerity. (I know it is sometimes hard to "read" tone. :)

[lovelaughs_times_three]

Ok...I have a favor to ask of someone. I posted this link earlier and I got the comment that all of the research that Dr. Wile quoted was unscientific and only represented a select group of students. There is a lot of research listed on this link. Some of it is older, some more recent. Some are simply quotes from College admissions. This talk that I heard at the Homeschool Convention really helped me. I had really been shaken in my resolve to homeschool, because several of my closest friends had jumped ship and had put their kids back in ps. I felt alone in my decision and it caused me to doubt. This talk really encouraged me to keep going.

 

Now, this thread and the criticisms of Dr. Wile's sources are shaking me up again. Can someone look at the research and let me know what they mean by it not being scientific? Are you referring to ALL of the studies? Are there more recent studies that refute these studies? Or is all the negative proof that homeschooling is not working, and is causing our kids to be behind, based on what people have observed in a case by case basis?

 

Here's the link: http://www.drwile.com/hs_sol1.pdf

 

Thanks in advance for the insight.

 

Signed,

 

A worried mom who wants the best for her kids....

[Soror]

:iagree:

 

This is exactly what I am finding to be true with my kids in my third year of homeschooling. The more we do and the higher my expectations, the more joy in learning we have.

We are in the 3rd year as well and finding we are really enjoying it more and more and are pushing more and more and he is getting this great joy out of his accomplishments. But I think it is good to make sure the expectations are age/level appropriate. When we started he was more than 2 yrs behind. We did a very relaxed pre-K at 5- lots of read alouds, singing, games, playing. It is nice to seem him bloosom now and realize that we don't have to keep it to just interest led to keep it fun. I can plan things out and they can still be enjoyable, which reduces my work and stress load.

[angela in ohio]

Ok...I have a favor to ask of someone. I posted this link earlier and I got the comment that all of the research that Dr. Wile quoted was unscientific and only represented a select group of students. There is a lot of research listed on this link. Some of it is older, some more recent. Some are simply quotes from College admissions. This talk that I heard at the Homeschool Convention really helped me. I had really been shaken in my resolve to homeschool, because several of my closest friends had jumped ship and had put their kids back in ps. I felt alone in my decision and it caused me to doubt. This talk really encouraged me to keep going.

 

Now, this thread and the criticisms of Dr. Wile's sources are shaking me up again. Can someone look at the research and let me know what they mean by it not being scientific? Are you referring to ALL of the studies? Are there more recent studies that refute these studies? Or is all the negative proof that homeschooling is not working, and is causing our kids to be behind, based on what people have observed in a case by case basis?

 

Here's the link: http://www.drwile.com/hs_sol1.pdf

 

Thanks in advance for the insight.

 

Signed,

 

A worried mom who wants the best for her kids....

 

It's not that research refutes the positive findings. It's that there has not been a truly accurate study, nor is there likely to be, because of the reasons I cited earlier. You will always have a portion of homeschoolers who refuse to participate, and there is currently no way to determine the complete population of homeschoolers.

 

The media uses the studies without questioning them, which is great for us as far as PR goes. But we should not be fooled ourselves into thinking that homeschooling in and of itself produces great results. We should always be concerned for whether we are doing the best we can do for our dc and not depending on the fact that any type of homeschooling is better than other options.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Ok...I have a favor to ask of someone. I posted this link earlier and I got the comment that all of the research that Dr. Wile quoted was unscientific and only represented a select group of students. There is a lot of research listed on this link. Some of it is older, some more recent. Some are simply quotes from College admissions. This talk that I heard at the Homeschool Convention really helped me. I had really been shaken in my resolve to homeschool, because several of my closest friends had jumped ship and had put their kids back in ps. I felt alone in my decision and it caused me to doubt. This talk really encouraged me to keep going.

 

Now, this thread and the criticisms of Dr. Wile's sources are shaking me up again. Can someone look at the research and let me know what they mean by it not being scientific? Are you referring to ALL of the studies? Are there more recent studies that refute these studies? Or is all the negative proof that homeschooling is not working, and is causing our kids to be behind, based on what people have observed in a case by case basis?

 

Here's the link: http://www.drwile.com/hs_sol1.pdf

 

Thanks in advance for the insight.

 

Signed,

 

A worried mom who wants the best for her kids....

 

 

I can't speak for every study as I haven't reviewed all of them, but from the ones I have seen, there was a definite selection bias among the homeschool students sampled (ie their parents either submitted their scores or had to agreed to release them) where the public school scores were the aggregate of all students who were tested. For some of the other studies, the issue was both a selection bias and an issue with using too small of a sample of of homeschooled students. I never read far enough into those studies to determine exactly how the homeschool sample was chosen, but getting a true random sample from that group will always be tremendously difficult.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ok...I have a favor to ask of someone. I posted this link earlier and I got the comment that all of the research that Dr. Wile quoted was unscientific and only represented a select group of students. There is a lot of research listed on this link. Some of it is older, some more recent. Some are simply quotes from College admissions. This talk that I heard at the Homeschool Convention really helped me. I had really been shaken in my resolve to homeschool, because several of my closest friends had jumped ship and had put their kids back in ps. I felt alone in my decision and it caused me to doubt. This talk really encouraged me to keep going.

 

Now, this thread and the criticisms of Dr. Wile's sources are shaking me up again. Can someone look at the research and let me know what they mean by it not being scientific? Are you referring to ALL of the studies? Are there more recent studies that refute these studies? Or is all the negative proof that homeschooling is not working, and is causing our kids to be behind, based on what people have observed in a case by case basis?

 

Here's the link: http://www.drwile.com/hs_sol1.pdf

 

Thanks in advance for the insight.

 

Signed,

 

A worried mom who wants the best for her kids....

 

It's not necessarily that his research is wrong. It's more that you can't make general sweeping statements based on it. In order for a study to be scientifically valid, you would have to have a study that had a big enough sample. And that sample would have to be representative of the entire homeschool community. Because of the diverse nature of the homeschool community, that would be very hard to do - and even more difficult because not every state keeps track of homeschoolers at all. So for those states, any information would have to be reported by the homeschooling families themselves voluntarily.

 

You can, however, get from these studies the fact that for many homeschool families, homeschooling does work. Whether you are one of the many depends more on your individual circumstances. Are your kids progressing in their work? Do you have curriculum that is appropriate and rigorous enough (not the most rigorous, just enough to be age and grade appropriate)? Are you addressing issues that come up (because it's not the fact that they come up that is the problem but whether you address them over time)?

 

If I'm honest, I've had a couple of years when because of my ill health, I was not doing a stellar job with my homeschooling. Dh and I talked about putting the kids into ps at that time. We decided to hold off and tackle my ill health (thus hopefully addressing one of the issues) because our kids were ahead on the basics. My health has gotten better (though I still have issues) and I've gotten back to homeschooling with a vengeance. I've found though that there were areas where my kids academic needs were not met as well as they should have been during that time. I spend a few minutes feeling bad about it from time to time, but overall I've decided that it would be better if I just addressed the issues that I know about now.

[angela in ohio]

So, what do you mean by rigor? How would you define it? What does it look like?

 

btw - I think I tend towards being a perfectionist when the goal is important to me. So, I mean this question with all sincerity. (I know it is sometimes hard to "read" tone. :)

 

By rigor I mean maintaining an atmosphere of intellectual joy and curiosity in our home so that my dc enjoy being challenged intellectually. It's not about the level: what is rigorous for my dc is not the same thing that is rigorous for another. It's not about the amount: I can do one really challenging math problem with my dc for 20 minutes and it is worth more than two hours spent filling out pages of simple problems.

 

It is the opposite of trying to get ahead at any cost or trying to just do more, which I often see in other families IRL who have high educational goals. They are dragging their dc through curriculum grade levels ahead or through a large pile of materials in the hopes that "ahead = rigor" or "more = rigor." Then those dc hate anything to do with learning, and they tell people that trying for a rigorous education killed the love of learning in their dc, and we get this false "rigor = hatred of learning" idea. Not true!

[Dmmetler]

Has anyone ever done a study from states where a majority of homeschoolers ARE tested? I'm thinking about California, for example, where apparently there's a high school completion exam that almost everyone takes? I can well believe that in my state, where almost everyone registers for umbrella schools and the biggest ones do not require testing, that homeschoolers who choose to test are a biased sample indeed.

[Elizabeth in WA]

I posted some strong opinions and then changed my mind. Frankly, I don't think the homeschooling community in general likes being criticized and since I am such a new member of the community I figured I'd not antagonize at this point.

 

To sum up what I wrote earlier my opinion is that homeschoolers are quick to point out when public schools fail but support failing homeschooling efforts to the bitter end. I do not understand this and I think it damages the credibility of our entire community. Some homeschooling parents are simply not doing a good job and giving them a pass is outrageous. People are so concerned about protecting the rights of the homeschooling parents that the children in question seem to get lost in the shuffle.

I understand that some families have special situations in which a child has learning delays or has an aptitude in some area that is not academic (like dance) and struggles even with dedicated and consistent instruction from the parents. I am not talking about those families. I read the other threads on the board and I understand people feeling sensitive but I think it is clear that neither of those parents are non-schooling.

 

I am never going to be a homeschooler who believes that parents have ultimate rights over their children and can neglect them educationally. It isn't a parent's right to drop the ball and I think every single child in our country should have basic benchmarks that they need to achieve no matter their educational venue. I know many homeschoolers don't want any specific standards applied to their homeschools and I can understand that fear to a certain extent. But I still disagree. Parents should be held accountable for basic educational progress for their children.

 

I think that the bolder is part of a larger philosophical disagreement that goes far beyond just the home school community. One side frames this debate as parents versus the government, but we on the other side would frame this similarly to what you just said: Children have rights their parents (and all other adults) are bound to recognize. It follows from this stance that government should protect their rights as they are largely powerless to do so themselves, and also that if education is one of those rights - and I agree that it is - then government should try to ensure that right. Homeschool reporting laws tend to reflect the dominant view on this issue of each state's elected representatives.

 

I also agree with you on the general tendency of homeschoolers to blame public schools for their failures, and to imply that public schools are nearly universally failures, while at the same time defending homeschool failures to the end. I do think it results from the philosophical divide discussed above to some extent, as most homeschoolers in my experience fall far to the side of parents' rights somehow negating any need for children's rights except in the most extreme cases of physical abuse or neglect.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Has anyone ever done a study from states where a majority of homeschoolers ARE tested? I'm thinking about California, for example, where apparently there's a high school completion exam that almost everyone takes? I can well believe that in my state, where almost everyone registers for umbrella schools and the biggest ones do not require testing, that homeschoolers who choose to test are a biased sample indeed.

 

It seems that I saw something from South Carolina (do they require testing? that is the state name in my head) where they did a comparison of public school scores to homeschool scores. I just glanced at it briefly at the time, but the first thing that stood out to me was that there were no controls for demographic differences between the two populations. There are certain factors that do tend to drive differences in test scores (contrary to what Dr. Rudner said in his dreadful study back in the 90s) that would have to be accounted for to make fair comparisons. The hold up in most cases will always be getting accurate data on the demographics of the homeschool families.

[angela in ohio]

It seems that I saw something from South Carolina (do they require testing? that is the state name in my head) where they did a comparison of public school scores to homeschool scores. I just glanced at it briefly at the time, but the first thing that stood out to me was that there were no controls for demographic differences between the two populations. There are certain factors that do tend to drive differences in test scores (contrary to what Dr. Rudner said in his dreadful study back in the 90s) that would have to be accounted for to make fair comparisons. The hold up in most cases will always be getting accurate data on the demographics of the homeschool families.

 

That's a huge factor.

 

There's also the fact that there are always non-reporting homeschoolers in any state, no matter what the law is. I knew a handful of non-compliant families in Ohio, where there is mandatory reporting each year.

[MamaBearMO]

 

I am never going to be a homeschooler who believes that parents have ultimate rights over their children and can neglect them educationally. It isn't a parent's right to drop the ball and I think every single child in our country should have basic benchmarks that they need to achieve no matter their educational venue. I know many homeschoolers don't want any specific standards applied to their homeschools and I can understand that fear to a certain extent. But I still disagree. Parents should be held accountable for basic educational progress for their children.

 

I'm pretty new here myself and actually found my way here because my seven year old is (I thought) struggling with reading and I'm concerned. Heck, I was panicked. It was here that I found some great advice and we totally revamped how we're doing phonics and reading. I've relaxed and taken a deep breath and realize my son is actually doing much better than I was giving him credit for. I was the problem! My expectations were much higher than should be for an emerging first grade reader and I had absolutely no clue what to use as a measure of his progress. He is making progress, I just didn't recognize it!

 

Anyway, I do agree that parents should be held accountable for their child's progress. However, I do not think that regulations which impose specific standards are in the best interest of homeschooled kids. As many of us know well, often homeschool kids are all over the place with academics, my own doing first grade work for reading and writing and third grade work for math. One of the best things about homeschooling is that we can tailor our lessons to our child's abilities and work with them where they're struggling and challenge them where they're excelling.

[JenC3]

Well I have a friend whose dd would definitely be 2 grades behind and she's a old 2nd grader. They are finishing up first grade and my dd is well into 3rd grade. She is 2 weeks older than dd. At 8 they do an bit over an hour a day..not enough IMO.

 

I think dd would be "tad" behind some 3rd graders, maybe. She is doing TT4 which is more 3rd grade IMO and R&S3 with no problems. She is a so so writer and handwriting lacks cursive yet since I didn't think she was working hard enough on printing neatly. Her reading level/comp was 8th grade 6 months ago when I tested. So as far as PS goes at 3rd grade level she would be behind in writing/handwriting, but if she went into 2nd grade which is the cutoff for her b-day she would be far, far, ahead in all other subjects.

[WIS0320]

!

 

Anyway, I do agree that parents should be held accountable for their child's progress. However, I do not think that regulations which impose specific standards are in the best interest of homeschooled kids. As many of us know well, often homeschool kids are all over the place with academics, my own doing first grade work for reading and writing and third grade work for math. One of the best things about homeschooling is that we can tailor our lessons to our child's abilities and work with them where they're struggling and challenge them where they're excelling.

 

So how in the world are parents to be held accountable if there are no standards?

 

And I'd also say to you to look around in your local homeschooling community. There are parents who are not tailoring their lessons to their child's ability because they aren't educating their children at all. Something is always getting in the way - a move, a new baby, errands, appointments, activities, mom doesn't feel like it, etc. I know things like this crop up for every single homeschooling family (including my family) but these sorts of things can't impede the child's education day in and day out, year after year. Of course those children are going to be behind their peer group in academic progress because no one is doing anything to help them make progress in the first place. And yet we as a community circle the wagons around these non-schoolers and claim, "Oh, better late than early!" or "Every family has their own schooling style!".

[stripe]

And yet we as a community circle the wagons around these non-schoolers and claim, "Oh, better late than early!" or "Every family has their own schooling style!".

 

or demonizing public schools without ever seeing what they do.

[Jean in Newcastle]

So how in the world are parents to be held accountable if there are no standards?

 

 

 

Depending on your state, there are standards.

[MamaBearMO]

So how in the world are parents to be held accountable if there are no standards?

 

And I'd also say to you to look around in your local homeschooling community. There are parents who are not tailoring their lessons to their child's ability because they aren't educating their children at all. Something is always getting in the way - a move, a new baby, errands, appointments, activities, mom doesn't feel like it, etc. I know things like this crop up for every single homeschooling family (including my family) but these sorts of things can't impede the child's education day in and day out, year after year. Of course those children are going to be behind their peer group in academic progress because no one is doing anything to help them make progress in the first place. And yet we as a community circle the wagons around these non-schoolers and claim, "Oh, better late than early!" or "Every family has their own schooling style!".

 

One doesn't need heavy regulation, complete with a list of standards to meet, to show progress. That's not progress, that's a checklist that may or may not reflect real learning. We see that in our public schools, they teach to the test to get performance on tested areas and neglect other things that are as educationally important for the sake of test scores.

 

What's needed is a method of being able to track and how progress for an individual child.

 

A child who starts first grade, for example, and knows their basic sounds and can read CVC words and ends the year still just reading CVC words has not made progress. Yet, if you look at our state's SOL, and used that as your standard, this child would be just fine, without making any real progress because the standards are not designed to measure progress, but measure a line item.

 

Yet, same child, different scenario...the state laws require a homeschool family to maintain records which show academic progress, hours of instruction and what was taught throughout the year. Now, unless the parent fudges that said child started the year with much less skills than they did, that parent will need to show progress from CVC to something a lot more over the year if they want to prove progress, or be able to show why the child did not progress beyond the level near where they started (LD?).

 

So, to me at least, it isn't so much necessary to set up a list of standards as it is to set up a method to measure progress over each year.

[MamaBearMO]

And I'd also say to you to look around in your local homeschooling community. There are parents who are not tailoring their lessons to their child's ability because they aren't educating their children at all. Something is always getting in the way - a move, a new baby, errands, appointments, activities, mom doesn't feel like it, etc. I know things like this crop up for every single homeschooling family (including my family) but these sorts of things can't impede the child's education day in and day out, year after year. Of course those children are going to be behind their peer group in academic progress because no one is doing anything to help them make progress in the first place. And yet we as a community circle the wagons around these non-schoolers and claim, "Oh, better late than early!" or "Every family has their own schooling style!".

 

One of the reasons I found this forum is because I do feel our local homeschool community is fairly lax compared to the standards I've set for my son. However, I wouldn't say the homeschoolers I know in real life are neglecting to educate their children...they're doing things differently than a classical approach, so I have much less in common with them than if they were also doing something a'la WTM.

 

Do I see some problems? Sometimes. But then lax is sometimes in the eye of the beholder. If one looks at our state SOL, what I see isn't all that lax, but my expectations are higher.

 

Do I think there is a huge problem in the homeschool community? Nope. I think just like you'll find in any educational environment, there are parents who are very over-involved, and others at the other end of the spectrum and much too laid back. I don't think the outliers represent the majority.

[I.Dup.]

 

So, to me at least, it isn't so much necessary to set up a list of standards as it is to set up a method to measure progress over each year.

 

I would very much agree with this. I believe one of the main benefits of homeschooling is meeting our children where they are and tailoring their education to fit their needs. Some children are going to be 2 years behind if their teacher is smart and not just pushing them ahead- sometimes things take longer to click. I would rather have my child 1 or 2 years "behind" but fully getting the information I am teaching. My 4th grader (age wise) is many, many years ahead in reading, vocab and comprehension but one year behind in math. I moved her a year behind because she just was.not.getting.it. If the state had standards against that, she would really suffer.

 

The benefit of homeschooling is the one-on-one interaction that our children get WAY more of with us than they would in a classroom. Sure some families are grossly negligent, but I have a hard time believing the majority of homeschoolers are that way. :confused:

[momma2three]

Just today I received a digest of a post from a nice enough homeschool group that included the flip comment that public school students are just memorizing facts so they can "spew" them on a standardized test. Yes, it's nice to know that one's homeschool child learned a lot using such-and-such a book/curriculum, but it's tiresome that public school even needs to be brought into the discussion and does not help to understand whether a certain path is a good one. It's sort of a straw man, really -- "Look over there at that public school student drooling! He memorized his multiplication table for a test, and now he forgot it! What's 2x3? Ha, I knew you'd forgotten!"

 

What I find funny about this is that one of the things that draws me into the WTM concept is more memorization.

[WIS0320]

I don't think the outliers represent the majority.

 

I'm not trying to make the point that the majority of homeschoolers are failures. I agree with you, I think most people who homeschool have given it a lot of thought and put a good deal of time and effort into the endeavor. What I think is the problem is the defensiveness on the part of the general homeschooling community that shields the lousy homeschoolers from censure and oversight. The community appears to be more worried about "rights" and will defend, defend, defend to the bitter end. Homeschoolers have no problem pointing out the failings in public and private traditional schools so honesty would be appropriate when assessing the homeschooling community as well.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'm not trying to make the point that the majority of homeschoolers are failures. I agree with you, I think most people who homeschool have given it a lot of thought and put a good deal of time and effort into the endeavor. What I think is the problem is the defensiveness on the part of the general homeschooling community that shields the lousy homeschoolers from censure and oversight. The community appears to be more worried about "rights" and will defend, defend, defend to the bitter end. Homeschoolers have no problem pointing out the failings in public and private traditional schools so honesty would be appropriate when assessing the homeschooling community as well.

 

If you do a search on "homeschool failure" or other terms like this on this board, you will see that there is a lot of appropriate honesty on this topic. You can also do a search on homeschool rights and you'll see that people a lot of homeschoolers do want some oversight but not so much that it makes it too onerous for those who are doing a good job. People are not disagreeing on the most part with your personal conclusions (though there is a wide range of opinions on this just like there on any topic) but perhaps with the sweeping language which assumes that no one has thought of these issues before you.

[WIS0320]

People are not disagreeing on the most part with your personal conclusions (though there is a wide range of opinions on this just like there on any topic) but perhaps with the sweeping language which assumes that no one has thought of these issues before you.

 

I'm so sorry! You've appropriately put me in my place. :)

[Barb_]

I'm so sorry! You've appropriately put me in my place. :)

 

One other thing you may want to ponder: Who would be the appropriate party to provide the oversight you desire?

 

Barb