"Most homeschool kids go back to ps 2 years behind"

[stripe]

And I'd also say to you to look around in your local homeschooling community.

 

In all honesty, I don't know what most people are doing. I know several Calvert users who don't go to coops/social groups for hsers at all, just as an example. I don't go to hs groups either. I don't think one local hs groupis remotely representative of hsing in my area.

[RoundAbout]

I believe all kids deserve the right to good nutrition and I hate the fact that some people feed their kids crap, but does that mean I want the government coming in and checking over my dinner menus? Is that appropriate or even the best way to deal with the problem of obesity and type 2 diabetes in our culture?

 

Who even sets the standards for good nutrition when some people believe in low-fat, others in low-carb or veganism, etc?

 

It's not a perfect analogy, but in some ways the costs to society of poor health are just as much (or greater) than lack of education.

 

In theory I agree with the idea of educational oversight for homeschoolers, but in practice...

[justamouse]

One of the biggest revelations for me in my early homeschooling days was that these two concepts, presented by many homeschoolers as opposite ends of a continuum, can actually be compatible goals. This has proven to be true in many of the homeschooling families I see IRL (and here): the more rigor, the more love of learning. :001_smile:

 

Another wholehearted Amen.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'm so sorry! You've appropriately put me in my place. :)

 

In post 162, you were seemingly upset enough with people's responses to declare that you were bowing out and going to the curriculum board. I was just pointing out that actually most of us agreed with you. But this is public discourse on a topic very dear to our hearts. We've all thought this out and have reasons for any disagreements or caveats that we might point out. Continued discussion is great in my opinion because it helps us to further think things through. I know that some of these discussions in the past have helped me become a better teacher to my kids (which is why I started this thread in the first place).

[cjgrubbs]

There is an article in the current issue of TOS magazine stating that homeschooled students generally test 15-30 points higher on standardized tests than public school kids. It has sources and lots of other statistical type data. That article would give you lots of good information.

[Jean in Newcastle]

There is an article in the current issue of TOS magazine stating that homeschooled students generally test 15-30 points higher on standardized tests than public school kids. It has sources and lots of other statistical type data. That article would give you lots of good information.

 

I will look for that. Thank you!

[lovelaughs_times_three]

One doesn't need heavy regulation, complete with a list of standards to meet, to show progress. That's not progress, that's a checklist that may or may not reflect real learning. We see that in our public schools, they teach to the test to get performance on tested areas and neglect other things that are as educationally important for the sake of test scores.

 

What's needed is a method of being able to track and how progress for an individual child.

 

A child who starts first grade, for example, and knows their basic sounds and can read CVC words and ends the year still just reading CVC words has not made progress. Yet, if you look at our state's SOL, and used that as your standard, this child would be just fine, without making any real progress because the standards are not designed to measure progress, but measure a line item.

 

Yet, same child, different scenario...the state laws require a homeschool family to maintain records which show academic progress, hours of instruction and what was taught throughout the year. Now, unless the parent fudges that said child started the year with much less skills than they did, that parent will need to show progress from CVC to something a lot more over the year if they want to prove progress, or be able to show why the child did not progress beyond the level near where they started (LD?).

 

So, to me at least, it isn't so much necessary to set up a list of standards as it is to set up a method to measure progress over each year.

 

:iagree:I don't mind someone looking over my shoulder and seeing what I am teaching and how my kids are progressing. What I don't want is to feel limited in what I can teach them, based on trying to teach to only a certain list of things. For example, I may be teaching more ancient history while the list may be focusing on early American history for that year. I may want to follow a "rabbit trail" and really delve deep into slavery and the Civil War, while a list may be telling me that I have to go less deep, and cover more history but at a much more shallow level.

 

I like working with my kids in Singapore Math. But to do so, I had to step down a level (my son who is in 4th grade is in 3A Math). This has put off his learning of all the multiplication facts (although I snuck most of them in on the side) for the sake of understanding addition at a much deeper level (IMHO) than what he was learning with the other curriculum. If there was a test I had to teach to, I feel it would limit and confine all the world of learning I want to give my kids.

 

I like the idea of showing progress, rather than simply testing. Of course, this would take more effort on the part of the state...

[lovelaughs_times_three]

It's not that research refutes the positive findings. It's that there has not been a truly accurate study, nor is there likely to be, because of the reasons I cited earlier. You will always have a portion of homeschoolers who refuse to participate, and there is currently no way to determine the complete population of homeschoolers.

 

The media uses the studies without questioning them, which is great for us as far as PR goes. But we should not be fooled ourselves into thinking that homeschooling in and of itself produces great results. We should always be concerned for whether we are doing the best we can do for our dc and not depending on the fact that any type of homeschooling is better than other options.

 

I can't speak for every study as I haven't reviewed all of them, but from the ones I have seen, there was a definite selection bias among the homeschool students sampled (ie their parents either submitted their scores or had to agreed to release them) where the public school scores were the aggregate of all students who were tested. For some of the other studies, the issue was both a selection bias and an issue with using too small of a sample of of homeschooled students. I never read far enough into those studies to determine exactly how the homeschool sample was chosen, but getting a true random sample from that group will always be tremendously difficult.

 

It's not necessarily that his research is wrong. It's more that you can't make general sweeping statements based on it. In order for a study to be scientifically valid, you would have to have a study that had a big enough sample. And that sample would have to be representative of the entire homeschool community. Because of the diverse nature of the homeschool community, that would be very hard to do - and even more difficult because not every state keeps track of homeschoolers at all. So for those states, any information would have to be reported by the homeschooling families themselves voluntarily.

 

You can, however, get from these studies the fact that for many homeschool families, homeschooling does work. Whether you are one of the many depends more on your individual circumstances. Are your kids progressing in their work? Do you have curriculum that is appropriate and rigorous enough (not the most rigorous, just enough to be age and grade appropriate)? Are you addressing issues that come up (because it's not the fact that they come up that is the problem but whether you address them over time)?

 

If I'm honest, I've had a couple of years when because of my ill health, I was not doing a stellar job with my homeschooling. Dh and I talked about putting the kids into ps at that time. We decided to hold off and tackle my ill health (thus hopefully addressing one of the issues) because our kids were ahead on the basics. My health has gotten better (though I still have issues) and I've gotten back to homeschooling with a vengeance. I've found though that there were areas where my kids academic needs were not met as well as they should have been during that time. I spend a few minutes feeling bad about it from time to time, but overall I've decided that it would be better if I just addressed the issues that I know about now.

 

Thanks so much for taking time to answer my question. I get it now. Too bad there can't be a more scientific study. It sure would help me feel more confident! (or make me change my mind about what I'm doing! :tongue_smilie:)

[lovelaughs_times_three]

By rigor I mean maintaining an atmosphere of intellectual joy and curiosity in our home so that my dc enjoy being challenged intellectually. It's not about the level: what is rigorous for my dc is not the same thing that is rigorous for another. It's not about the amount: I can do one really challenging math problem with my dc for 20 minutes and it is worth more than two hours spent filling out pages of simple problems.

 

It is the opposite of trying to get ahead at any cost or trying to just do more, which I often see in other families IRL who have high educational goals. They are dragging their dc through curriculum grade levels ahead or through a large pile of materials in the hopes that "ahead = rigor" or "more = rigor." Then those dc hate anything to do with learning, and they tell people that trying for a rigorous education killed the love of learning in their dc, and we get this false "rigor = hatred of learning" idea. Not true!

 

Thanks, Angela! I get what you are saying. I am certainly doing that for my youngest dd. She is good at Math, so I have purchased the Intensive Practice from Singapore to add to her study. I hope I can find other ways to equally challenge all my children.

 

What I love is the fact that my kids actually LOVE a challenge. They let me know if they think a curriculum is too easy/boring! They love to feel stretched. I credit this to the fact that the competition and shame factor is gone. In ps, when I was young, I remember how quickly I could feel stupid when I didn't figure out a problem as quickly as another student did. At home, they just get to tackle the problem and find success. Making them eager to try again. For me, at school, I found myself hoping the next problem would be easier so I didn't have to look as bad! :tongue_smilie:

[WIS0320]

In post 162, you were seemingly upset enough with people's responses to declare that you were bowing out and going to the curriculum board.

 

I didn't leave because I was upset, I left because I am very aware that I am a new homeschooler and that affects my opinions and how other people view them on a forum like this. I left because I was strident in tone (as I tend to be when I have strong opinions!) and didn't want to burn any bridges on this board with those who participate here regularly. I like this forum and want to remain a positive member. So, I rethought about my post and deleted it.

 

This is the exact post, so I'm not sure why anyone thought I was upset?

 

ETA: On second thought, I think I am too new around here to get into this discussion. I can see on the main board in other threads where people really feel like fingers are pointing at them and that has not been my intention. I've clearly edited this post and I'm bowing out. I'll head back over to the K-8 board to agonize some more about my curriculum choices. :-)

Another poster later quoted that post and indicated that she was sorry to see the deletion. So I jumped back in.

 

At this time my thoughts have been made known, I have been told that this discussion has been hashed out in the past and I will go and look for those threads in the archives. If all of this has already been discussed several times then I doubt I have much new to add to the conversation. :001_smile:

Edited September 1, 2011 by drexel

[Ria]

I posted some strong opinions and then changed my mind. Frankly, I don't think the homeschooling community in general likes being criticized and since I am such a new member of the community I figured I'd not antagonize at this point.

 

If it makes you feel any better about posting your opinions, it doesn't matter how long you've been in the homeschooling community or on these boards. I had been on the boards for many years, from close to the beginning (when the VegSource community migrated here) and homeschooled for 16 years, yet when I posted similar opinions several years ago they were met with similar responses.

 

My opinions are not meant to criticize homeschooling parents, but are meant to make them think a little deeper about what they are doing and how they are doing it. Homeschooling can be the ultimate education if the parent is willing to work to make it so.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I didn't leave because I was upset, I left because I am very aware that I am a new homeschooler and that affects my opinions and how other people view them on a forum like this. I left because I was strident in tone (as I tend to be when I have strong opinions!) and didn't want to burn any bridges on this board with those who participate here regularly. I like this forum and want to remain a positive member. So, I rethought about my post and deleted it.

 

This is the exact post, so I'm not sure why anyone thought I was upset?

 

Another poster later quoted that post and indicated that she was sorry to see the deletion. So I jumped back in.

 

At this time my thoughts have been made known, I have been told that this discussion has been hashed out in the past and I will go and look for those threads in the archives. If all of this has already been discussed several times then I doubt I have much new to add to the conversation. :001_smile:

 

Tone is notoriously difficult to read online and I apologize because it appears that I misread yours. Don't worry about rehashing conversations - we do that all the time here! I thought there was a tone there that didn't allow for anyone to have a different opinion than your own.

[lovelaughs_times_three]

Tone is notoriously difficult to read online and I apologize because it appears that I misread yours. Don't worry about rehashing conversations - we do that all the time here! I thought there was a tone there that didn't allow for anyone to have a different opinion than your own.

 

I suppose if there was a rule that we could never rehash a conversation, we might, just might, run out of things to talk about! :D Plus, there are so many new voices joining all the time, it is really cool to hear how someone else sees something. Even if it has already been said, it has never been said quite like you would say it. I really like the conversations here!

[Mrs Twain]

The following is a sample what our public elementary school does, which I know from experience since I had two kids there.

 

A significant amount of instructional time is spent doing activites and teaching about various subjects such as Halloween, Kwanzaa, dreidels, a Hindu holiday, Santa Claus including a holiday party with children watching a DVD movie about Santa Claus, the negative effects of bullying, "family life education," and Mardi Gras. The math program is about one year behind according a couple of scope and sequence lists which I have consulted. The small bit of history taught has to be balanced based on ethnicity and gender (i.e. one will never be able to cover all of the founding fathers since there are too many white men in that group), and includes statements such as Thanksgiving is about when the Pilgrims said thank you to the Indians. With one teacher for about thirty students, there is little or no time for individual evaluation of the students' writing. "Creative spelling" is encouraged. In order for our elementary school to pass the periodic evaluations, they teach the students songs and rhymes so that they will know how to pick the correct answer on the multiple choice test, the goal being high test scores rather than teaching the content of the subjects.

 

These are just a few snipets of our public school. I pray that I don't have to send my children there ever again for that kind of education. I can easily surpass their results if I pick out good curricula, make sure I am covering all of the basic subjects well, and try hard every day. I know I am surpassing them because of my kids' test results and comparison with the kids in our neighborhood.

 

After reading this thread, it sounds like all public schools are wonderful places where a superior education is being provided. I haven't seen that in real life. I wonder where all of these amazing public schools are. They are certainly not in my neighborhood.

[YLVD]

The following is a sample what our public elementary school does, which I know from experience since I had two kids there.

 

A significant amount of instructional time is spent doing activites and teaching about various subjects such as Halloween, Kwanzaa, dreidels, a Hindu holiday, Santa Claus including a holiday party with children watching a DVD movie about Santa Claus, the negative effects of bullying, "family life education," and Mardi Gras. The math program is about one year behind according a couple of scope and sequence lists which I have consulted. The small bit of history taught has to be balanced based on ethnicity and gender (i.e. one will never be able to cover all of the founding fathers since there are too many white men in that group), and includes statements such as Thanksgiving is about when the Pilgrims said thank you to the Indians. With one teacher for about thirty students, there is little or no time for individual evaluation of the students' writing. "Creative spelling" is encouraged. In order for our elementary school to pass the periodic evaluations, they teach the students songs and rhymes so that they will know how to pick the correct answer on the multiple choice test, the goal being high test scores rather than teaching the content of the subjects.

 

These are just a few snipets of our public school. I pray that I don't have to send my children there ever again for that kind of education. I can easily surpass their results if I pick out good curricula, make sure I am covering all of the basic subjects well, and try hard every day. I know I am surpassing them because of my kids' test results and comparison with the kids in our neighborhood.

 

After reading this thread, it sounds like all public schools are wonderful places where a superior education is being provided. I haven't seen that in real life. I wonder where all of these amazing public schools are. They are certainly not in my neighborhood.

 

My DD attended an amazing public montessori elementary school..only about 180 kids total, a great middle school (we homeschooled part of middle school due to medical issues). Her elementary school education was the best I could have hoped for.

 

My DD is now currently back in a public high school but it only has 80 kids total and it geared towards kids with learning disabilities.

 

I suppose I'm very lucky to have these opportunities. But, I also live in a very expensive area. That is probably why.

[I.Dup.]

I believe all kids deserve the right to good nutrition and I hate the fact that some people feed their kids crap, but does that mean I want the government coming in and checking over my dinner menus? Is that appropriate or even the best way to deal with the problem of obesity and type 2 diabetes in our culture?

 

Who even sets the standards for good nutrition when some people believe in low-fat, others in low-carb or veganism, etc?

 

It's not a perfect analogy, but in some ways the costs to society of poor health are just as much (or greater) than lack of education.

 

In theory I agree with the idea of educational oversight for homeschoolers, but in practice...

 

:iagree:

 

 

After reading this thread, it sounds like all public schools are wonderful places where a superior education is being provided. I haven't seen that in real life. I wonder where all of these amazing public schools are. They are certainly not in my neighborhood.

 

:iagree:100%!! Even if these magical public schools WERE in my neighborhood, I STILL would not feel comfortable sending my children there, I homeschool for a myriad of reasons, not only to "avoid" public schools.

[GingerPoppy]

The following is a sample what our public elementary school does, which I know from experience since I had two kids there.

 

A significant amount of instructional time is spent doing activites and teaching about various subjects such as Halloween, Kwanzaa, dreidels, a Hindu holiday, Santa Claus including a holiday party with children watching a DVD movie about Santa Claus, the negative effects of bullying, "family life education," and Mardi Gras. The math program is about one year behind according a couple of scope and sequence lists which I have consulted. The small bit of history taught has to be balanced based on ethnicity and gender (i.e. one will never be able to cover all of the founding fathers since there are too many white men in that group), and includes statements such as Thanksgiving is about when the Pilgrims said thank you to the Indians. With one teacher for about thirty students, there is little or no time for individual evaluation of the students' writing. "Creative spelling" is encouraged. In order for our elementary school to pass the periodic evaluations, they teach the students songs and rhymes so that they will know how to pick the correct answer on the multiple choice test, the goal being high test scores rather than teaching the content of the subjects.

 

These are just a few snipets of our public school. I pray that I don't have to send my children there ever again for that kind of education. I can easily surpass their results if I pick out good curricula, make sure I am covering all of the basic subjects well, and try hard every day. I know I am surpassing them because of my kids' test results and comparison with the kids in our neighborhood.

 

After reading this thread, it sounds like all public schools are wonderful places where a superior education is being provided. I haven't seen that in real life. I wonder where all of these amazing public schools are. They are certainly not in my neighborhood.

 

I was lucky enough to attend a stellar elementary school, so I know they exist. My daughter's ps that she attended from Kindergarten to 3/4 of the way through grade 4, was not what I would have wished for. It was a lot of what you describe above. There was so much time wasted on endless "parties" with movies and junk food. They never taught phonics (so that was part of our afterschooling). They didn't teach cursive, or typing, or music. In math, they were endlessly reviewing concepts like multi-digit addition and subtraction. By the time I pulled her in March of her grade 4 year, they had not covered ANY multiplication (nor did they in grade 3). Needless to say, division hadn't been taught either. And yet one day, they sent home a worksheet on reducing fractions--how can they do that without division? (Well, I know they could do it with pictures, but that hadn't been taught either.) In grade 2, during one of the key "socialization" times--lunch--they were playing movies so the kids could stare at a screen instead of interact with friends. Daily. For 40 minutes a day. I was pretty upset.

 

(This is considered a good public school in an upscale neighbourhood, and just for context, this is in Canada.)

 

To sum up, I was very disappointed with the curriculum at my daughter's school. Because of this, I've always supplemented with afterschooling. Without my extra teaching, I hate to think where she'd be right now.

 

Sure, some schools are doing a pretty good job, but I can beat pretty good any day. Plus, there are more reasons than academic that we're now homeschooling.

Edited September 1, 2011 by GingerPoppy

[Mommy22alyns]

 

After reading this thread, it sounds like all public schools are wonderful places where a superior education is being provided. I haven't seen that in real life. I wonder where all of these amazing public schools are. They are certainly not in my neighborhood.

 

 

:iagree:

[creekland]

It sure would help me feel more confident! (or make me change my mind about what I'm doing! :tongue_smilie:)

 

To feel more confident, spend some time on the college board or high school board watching those getting ready to go to college. The hive has oodles of academic (and otherwise) success stories from homeschooling. There are also plenty of people willing to share what worked (or didn't) for them.

[creekland]

 

Another poster later quoted that post and indicated that she was sorry to see the deletion. So I jumped back in.

 

And that poster is glad you jumped back in. I happen to agree with your assessment, so that could bias my thoughts. ;) In general though, I think we're all better off when people share their thoughts and we can mull them over keeping, modifying, or discarding as we wish.

 

 

 

After reading this thread, it sounds like all public schools are wonderful places where a superior education is being provided. I haven't seen that in real life. I wonder where all of these amazing public schools are. They are certainly not in my neighborhood.

 

The public school in which I work is eerily similar to yours. I was talking recently with an 8th grade English teacher who was supposed to have all 8th graders read 2 novels from a 4th grade level. Why? To keep unity, of course. It didn't matter that a fair number of the 8th graders should be reading above grade level and wouldn't be challenged in the least with 4th grade books. It wouldn't be "fair" to provide a differing education making some students feel inadequate in class.

 

I have my own 10th grader (in ps) doing a cyber English class due to the low level of one (or two) of his summer reading books - books supposedly for 10th grade Honors English. I then expect him to continue with the cyber class for 11th so he can do AP - something our school doesn't offer. He'll also do AP Bio by self studying and perhaps one other yet to be determined.

 

However, my middle son (homeschooled since 7th grade) is applying to colleges this year and has high stats. He'll be competing for admission and merit aid against oodles of other high stat kids with as good or better qualifications than he has and many of them came from public schools (just not ours).

 

As with homeschooling, it all depends on the school and what they provide.

[MelAR05]

:iagree:

 

This is exactly what I am finding to be true with my kids in my third year of homeschooling. The more we do and the higher my expectations, the more joy in learning we have.

 

:iagree:

 

I'm not trying to make the point that the majority of homeschoolers are failures. I agree with you, I think most people who homeschool have given it a lot of thought and put a good deal of time and effort into the endeavor. What I think is the problem is the defensiveness on the part of the general homeschooling community that shields the lousy homeschoolers from censure and oversight. The community appears to be more worried about "rights" and will defend, defend, defend to the bitter end. Homeschoolers have no problem pointing out the failings in public and private traditional schools so honesty would be appropriate when assessing the homeschooling community as well.

 

Maybe we learned that defensiveness from the public school system. :) I see them doing the exact same thing, not willing to change and defending to the bitter end. Just like students fall through the cracks in public school, some are going to go fall through in homeschools.

 

I believe homeschoolers defend to the bitter end for fear of having the right to homeschool at all being taken away. Give them an inch, they will take a mile.

 

I do agree with you in the sense that homeschoolers should be more open to assessment and improvement but I don't know if I think the current educational choices are what I want assessing my job as an educator.

 

I believe all kids deserve the right to good nutrition and I hate the fact that some people feed their kids crap, but does that mean I want the government coming in and checking over my dinner menus? Is that appropriate or even the best way to deal with the problem of obesity and type 2 diabetes in our culture?

 

Who even sets the standards for good nutrition when some people believe in low-fat, others in low-carb or veganism, etc?

 

It's not a perfect analogy, but in some ways the costs to society of poor health are just as much (or greater) than lack of education.

 

In theory I agree with the idea of educational oversight for homeschoolers, but in practice...

 

:iagree:

[Jean in Newcastle]

After reading this thread, it sounds like all public schools are wonderful places where a superior education is being provided. I haven't seen that in real life. I wonder where all of these amazing public schools are. They are certainly not in my neighborhood.

 

The problem is that there are some homeschoolers who do such a poor job that their kids are even behind the less than stellar schools. It happens when there is a dysfunction of some kind - sometimes it is a genuine learning disability (and obviously the child would have the same problem in school) but sometimes it is a dysfunction in the work ethic of the teacher/mom or a dysfunction in how the home operates to the point that the parent cannot teach the child because there is no respect there. These are the kids who the principal sees, who come back to ps 2 years behind in actual skills/content. I don't care so much about the PR in those cases as much as what it does for the child. It is difficult to catch up in public school for any reason and these kids do not have it easy.

[creekland]

The problem is that there are some homeschoolers who do such a poor job that their kids are even behind the less than stellar schools.

 

Yes, we've had kids come to our "less than average" ps from homeschooling and they've been woefully behind without any sort of disability as the reason. It happens far more often than it should. We've also had stellar students come to our school from homeschooling. I kind of feel sorry for them as I know their parents expect them to get a top notch education and it just doesn't happen up to the student's ability. Not here. Elsewhere it could.

[justamouse]

 

 

After reading this thread, it sounds like all public schools are wonderful places where a superior education is being provided. I haven't seen that in real life. I wonder where all of these amazing public schools are. They are certainly not in my neighborhood.

 

:confused: I think this is the exact defensiveness Drexel was talking about in this comment-

 

I'm not trying to make the point that the majority of homeschoolers are failures. I agree with you, I think most people who homeschool have given it a lot of thought and put a good deal of time and effort into the endeavor. What I think is the problem is the defensiveness on the part of the general homeschooling community that shields the lousy homeschoolers from censure and oversight. The community appears to be more worried about "rights" and will defend, defend, defend to the bitter end. Homeschoolers have no problem pointing out the failings in public and private traditional schools so honesty would be appropriate when assessing the homeschooling community as well.

 

Homeschooling should not be excused from criticism. *obviously* people here prefer homeschooling, but what I am saying is that a lousy homeschooler would do better to put their child in a lousy public school.

 

I have great schools and STILL homeschool my children-it doesn't mean my schools suck, it means MY family has different priorities. Those priorities may line up well with your own, but that doesn't mean that kids in my town don't get a good education. But to homeschool and then deny (with all good intentions, of course) the child of an education? That is not right.

 

 

The problem is that there are some homeschoolers who do such a poor job that their kids are even behind the less than stellar schools. It happens when there is a dysfunction of some kind - sometimes it is a genuine learning disability (and obviously the child would have the same problem in school) but sometimes it is a dysfunction in the work ethic of the teacher/mom or a dysfunction in how the home operates to the point that the parent cannot teach the child because there is no respect there. These are the kids who the principal sees, who come back to ps 2 years behind in actual skills/content. I don't care so much about the PR in those cases as much as what it does for the child. It is difficult to catch up in public school for any reason and these kids do not have it easy.

 

Exactly.:iagree:

Edited September 2, 2011 by justamouse
guh

[Crimson Wife]

the state laws require a homeschool family to maintain records which show academic progress, hours of instruction and what was taught throughout the year. Now, unless the parent fudges that said child started the year with much less skills than they did, that parent will need to show progress from CVC to something a lot more over the year if they want to prove progress, or be able to show why the child did not progress beyond the level near where they started (LD?).

 

So, to me at least, it isn't so much necessary to set up a list of standards as it is to set up a method to measure progress over each year.

 

Is the state in question micromanaging the academic progress of students enrolled in B&M private schools?

 

I believe that students enrolled in private homeschools should be held to the EXACT SAME STANDARDS AS OTHER PRIVATE SCHOOL STUDENTS. No more, no less.

 

Either require ALL private school students (including homeschooled ones) to take standardized tests, or exempt them all. Either require ALL of them to have a portfolio review, or exempt them all. And so on, and so forth.

 

It is extremely unfair to scrutinize one set of privately educated students more than another set, just because of the location of that private education (at home vs. at a B&M school).

[Jean in Newcastle]

Homeschooling should not be excused from criticism. *obviously* people here prefer homeschooling, but what I am saying is that a lousy homeschooler would do better to put their child in a lousy public school.

 

 

:iagree: I knew there was a problem. I guess I was hoping that it was not that common a problem. From some of the comments from those who teach homeschoolers, it seems like it might be more of a problem than I thought. But then some of the studies with good test scores hint that in some areas anyway that it might not be as much of a problem. I guess the final answer is that there really isn't enough hard data of the kind that means anything.

[Kirch]

By rigor I mean maintaining an atmosphere of intellectual joy and curiosity in our home so that my dc enjoy being challenged intellectually. It's not about the level: what is rigorous for my dc is not the same thing that is rigorous for another. It's not about the amount: I can do one really challenging math problem with my dc for 20 minutes and it is worth more than two hours spent filling out pages of simple problems.

 

It is the opposite of trying to get ahead at any cost or trying to just do more, which I often see in other families IRL who have high educational goals. They are dragging their dc through curriculum grade levels ahead or through a large pile of materials in the hopes that "ahead = rigor" or "more = rigor." Then those dc hate anything to do with learning, and they tell people that trying for a rigorous education killed the love of learning in their dc, and we get this false "rigor = hatred of learning" idea. Not true!

 

:iagree: When I think of rigor, I think of expecting my kids to work at or near the top of their ability. Work that demands effort but is doable. Work that gives a child a great sense of accomplishment when completed well. Work that makes them think and stretches them--but not too far (like I said in the previous point--it's doable). It's an ongoing challenge (a VERY rigorous one!) for me to find that line. Sometimes they do need a break--a day of lighter, easier work in one or more subjects, and sometimes I think you have to work up to more rigorous standards, or settle for less rigor in one area for a while as you challenge them in another.

 

For example, ds 1 is about halfway through WWE 1, and I KNOW he is ready to move on to WWE 2. But moving him up right now would mean fighting him tooth and nail on it for a while (he doesn't want to move up, and he is often . . . dramatic . . . at first when presented with new challenges or expectations). He's being challenged in other areas and is still progressing in writing, so I'm not going to push it yet. But we are skipping weeks so he'll finish the book faster, and I'm upping my expectations of him for the work he *is* doing.

 

I think a rigorous education also has an element of doing/including some things that may not be as challenging but are essential as the foundation for future learning. Spelling right now is not a challenge for ds 1, but I still consider what we're doing as rigorous because he's learning the rules he'll need for later on when it is tougher for him (we use AAS). And even though the actual spelling itself isn't too hard for him at this point, my expectations are high for him as far as memorizing the rules and being able to demonstrate/explain them.

[justamouse]

:iagree: I knew there was a problem. I guess I was hoping that it was not that common a problem. From some of the comments from those who teach homeschoolers, it seems like it might be more of a problem than I thought. But then some of the studies with good test scores hint that in some areas anyway that it might not be as much of a problem. I guess the final answer is that there really isn't enough hard data of the kind that means anything.

 

I know, it's so hard to tell. I would hazard a guess that the schools see more homeschool dropouts re-enroll their children and so of course, they see the worst of it. The part that scares me is the co-op teachers sharing that their homeschooled students are not on grade level, or unwilling to work. :glare:

[Ginny May]

Home schooling doesn't work for everyone, same as PS doesn't. PS teachers will just see those whom it doesn't work for. They won't see the successes because the successes are still at home, homeschooling.

 

That's my standard response anyway. It's simply a case of selection bias on the teacher's part.

 

:iagree:

[Jean in Newcastle]

The part that scares me is the co-op teachers sharing that their homeschooled students are not on grade level, or unwilling to work. :glare:

 

See, I've never ever had time to go to co-ops because it would interfere with our rigor! But of course I realize that many people on this board go to them - some just for social interaction and some for outside accountability.

[justamouse]

See, I've never ever had time to go to co-ops because it would interfere with our rigor! But of course I realize that many people on this board go to them - some just for social interaction and some for outside accountability.

 

Same reasons for us. :001_smile:

[SeekingHim77]

I wouldn't worry about the things that are said on this thread. They are just generalizations. No need to worry-just make sure you're giving your children a great education and all will be well. :001_smile:

[MamaBearMO]

Is the state in question micromanaging the academic progress of students enrolled in B&M private schools?

 

I believe that students enrolled in private homeschools should be held to the EXACT SAME STANDARDS AS OTHER PRIVATE SCHOOL STUDENTS. No more, no less.

 

Either require ALL private school students (including homeschooled ones) to take standardized tests, or exempt them all. Either require ALL of them to have a portfolio review, or exempt them all. And so on, and so forth.

 

It is extremely unfair to scrutinize one set of privately educated students more than another set, just because of the location of that private education (at home vs. at a B&M school).

 

I hadn't looked at the regulations for private schools in Missouri, but did after reading your reply. It looks like private schools, like homeschools, are exempt from testing. The regs also have in them that curriculum choice is up to school (or parent in homeschooling) and that neither can be compelled to follow a particular "sect". Each are expected to provide instruction in the core subjects (homeschoolers have a number of hours to meet each school year) and include, starting by 7th grade, MO constitution, US constitution and American history. Textbooks aren't provided to either, but students from either may enroll in the MO Virtual Instruction Program and may also utilize special ed services at the public schools.

Edited September 2, 2011 by MamaBearMO

[momma2three]

Around here there are minimum standards that private schools must adhere to, or else they are shut down. I've never heard of it happening with a k-12 school, but it does happen with trade "colleges" with some frequency if there's proof that their graduates are not passing whatever licensing exams there are in enough numbers.