Rant/hurt/ want christians to learn love instead of judgement

[MSNative]

I went back thru the first 15 pages and couldn't find one example of posters calling other posters names. Please feel free to pm the post number...I'm kinda curious what you consider name calling :001_smile:

QUOTE]

 

I pm'd you. :)

[CAMom]

I went back thru the first 15 pages and couldn't find one example of posters calling other posters names. Please feel free to pm the post number...I'm kinda curious what you consider name calling :001_smile:

 

Some came close...like I said...passionate! ;)

 

 

 

Well it started about page 4 or 5....{ETA: the hostility started around those pages-I wasn't being specific as to posters calling other posters names}

 

Simka do you not think that claiming that people are not "real Christians" or calling them "white washed tombs" is inappropriate? Aren't you just judging them based on what someone else said about them and not after having gotten to know them? How could you claim from one short post (the OP) that people are not "real Christians?"

 

There was plenty more in the thread.

Edited October 4, 2010 by CAMom

[Sophia]

 

As far as the question of why he is allowing this to interfere with his faith; we have all been teenagers. Teens are some of the most insecure people on this planet. It's the time of their lives when more mature Christians need to embrace them, piercings, blue hair, skinny jeans, and all.

 

Yes, we all have been teens.

I remember it well. I have also worked professionally with teens, as a counselor in the Department of Corrections, during which time I really grew to appreciate how much guidance they still needed. A teen professing to be a Christian would benefit from a mature Christian reminding him that his faith is based upon the grace of God, not on the behavior of others.

Having that truth emphasized will mean more to him later in life than whether or not someone affirms how he chooses to dress today.

[Laurie]

 

He is a loving, caring, gentle, poetic musical type kids. He loves people but honestly he can't keep "home school" friends because their parent don't approve of him. These aren't little kids but junior and senior kids that can't befriend a fellow 17 yo who is allowed to choose his own music, own hair, and oh gasp he got his tongue pierced. They consider him "evil" a bad influence or whatever.

:

 

I haven't read all the replies, but I wanted to add my thoughts. It's very painful when your child feels rejected; I understand this. My own son had a severe speech impediment and there were kids who didn't want to play with him because of the way he talked. Because of that experience, I'm always shocked when I meet someone whose speech is affected by tongue piercings. I can't help but think of how much time and energy we spent going to speech therapy and practicing at home so that my ds would overcome his speech impediment, and here is someone who voluntarily did it to him/herself!

At my dentist office there are pamphlets in the waiting room about the dangers of tongue piercings. I think this is far more extreme than someone who just chooses to wear long bangs.

I believe tongue piercing is a bad choice. I don't understand why a parent would give a child under his/her roof that much choice, and truthfully it would concern me as a parent to have my own children spending a lot of time with someone who is making what I consider to be bad choices with his parent's approval. Yes, this would concern me and not because I'm a Christian but because I'm very cautious.

[Murphy101]

Didn't read the entire thread...

 

1. I think far too often it is easier to blame looks. I don't know what happened to make the OP think people aren't being friends with her boy bc of his looks/style. From the sound of it, it could just as easily be because they have nothing in common with him.

 

2. pqr has a valid point that appearance do matter. Maybe this is one of those social lessons. When in Rome kind of things. When applying for a job, you look a certain way. When going to a wedding you look a certain way. There is a level of expected appearance that really cannot be argued away. It has nothing to do with being Christian. It's just part if humanities social structure. Bucking it won't change it much. I have a bil who hasn't had steady employment for years because he won't cut his hair and thinks he should be able to wear his rocker jeans everywhere. Sure he can. Not gonna keep a job though.

 

3. For all the hype about how looks shouldn't matter, anyone who values their appearance more than making friends isn't much different are they? Aren't they saying they value their pierced tongue more than making people feel comfortable around them?

 

4. I wouldn't have a problem associating with the OPs boy going by the OP. I probably wouldn't tell my kids not to associate with him based on the OP. (Though I would say point blank that no piercings are allowed for boys here. Period.:) )

 

5. If red bras are whoreish then going braless due to nursing all the time makes me? And I love a nice mixed drink or glass of wine and dh home brews his beer. Given the number of children I have, I think its safe to say whatever it says about me - it does not mean I'm really cold in the winter. Or the summer. Or the fall....;)

 

6. In case it hasn't been mentioned, some people would not let their children associate with anyone they felt was behaving in a self-destructive manner. Behaving in ways such as promiscuous sex, multiple or untraditional piercings, goth/emo makeup clothing, drinking, behavior that automatically sets them up for ridicule would be deemed as unhealthy and self-destructive by many people, regardless of faith belief. * I * am not saying that it necessarily IS. I'm saying that many people absolutely would view it that way.

[astrid]

I don't understand why a parent would give a child under his/her roof that much choice, and truthfully it would concern me as a parent to have my own children spending a lot of time with someone who is making what I consider to be bad choices with his parent's approval. Yes, this would concern me and not because I'm a Christian but because I'm very cautious.

 

I'd wager that many teens who pierce their tongues (and other body parts) and get tattooed don't exactly ask for permission. I have many students who decide on a whim to have it done and arrive home to show their parents after it's a fait accompli. When this happens, approval and permission are moot points.

 

astrid

[Laurie]

I'd wager that many teens who pierce their tongues (and other body parts) and get tattooed don't exactly ask for permission. I have many students who decide on a whim to have it done and arrive home to show their parents after it's a fait accompli. When this happens, approval and permission are moot points.

 

astrid

 

Getting pierced and being allowed to keep the ring/hardware are two completely different things. ;)

[Murphy101]

I'd wager that many teens who pierce their tongues (and other body parts) and get tattooed don't exactly ask for permission. I have many students who decide on a whim to have it done and arrive home to show their parents after it's a fait accompli. When this happens, approval and permission are moot points.

 

astrid

 

Not in my state. They are not supposed to give either unless a parent is present to say it's okay. They have to show a license and so forth. I'm sure enterprising teens can lie their way around it, but that sure wouldn't speak any higher of them to me.

 

Tats I guess that might apply.

 

But if my kid comes home with a piercing, I would think the first reaction would be to demand it be removed that moment. Not sure what consequence I'd give to get them to do it. I do know that when my friend Jeremy got his earring pierced after his grandfather (who he lived with) repeatedly told him not to do it. His grandfather came home from work to see Jer sleeping on the sofa with that earring glistening and promptly walked over and yanked it out and threw it away. I wouldn't do that! :lol:

[astrid]

Well, yes.......but, to put this delicately, often the "hardware" and it's strategic placement is not visible to parents. They may not even be aware that their son/daughter is so adorned. ;)

 

Then there's the case of tattoos--- not a simple matter of removing the hardware.

 

astrid

[Murphy101]

Oh my. Yes I suppose that's true.

 

Though if it isn't seen, how the heck does anyone else know? Doesn't sound like how it comes to be known is very charming or appropriate either?:001_huh:

 

Though I shudder to contemplate what jer's grandpa would've done if it had been a tongue, navel, or er "other" ring!:svengo:

[Impish]

I guess running teens over with a magnet will be the hip new trend for hands on parenting...:001_huh:

[Murphy101]

I guess running teens over with a magnet will be the hip new trend for hands on parenting...:001_huh:

 

Well if you send them to public school here, I'd suppose the entry and exit metal detectors would let everyone know.

 

So really home school parents just needs to be more like B&M schools?:001_huh:

[astrid]

Oh my. Yes I suppose that's true.

 

Though if it isn't seen, how the heck does anyone else know? Doesn't sound like how it comes to be known is very charming or appropriate either?:001_huh:

 

Though I shudder to contemplate what jer's grandpa would've done if it had been a tongue, navel, or er "other" ring!:svengo:

 

 

Kids talk, brag, etc. As a 7th grade teacher I learned WAAAAY more than I ever wanted to know about many of the kids just by fulfilling my hall and cafeteria monitoring duties. ;)

 

astrid

[astrid]

I know you're being facetious, but I don't think metal detectors pick that up, do they? I mean I've been through metal detectors at airports and at schools when I give professional development workshops and my jewelry has never set them off.

 

Granted, it's just necklace, earrings, wedding/engagement ring and occasionally a bracelet...

 

 

astrid

[Mrs Mungo]

I know you're being facetious, but I don't think metal detectors pick that up, do they? I mean I've been through metal detectors at airports and at schools when I give professional development workshops and my jewelry has never set them off.

 

Granted, it's just necklace, earrings, wedding/engagement ring and occasionally a bracelet...

 

 

astrid

 

I think it depends upon the size and the metal involved. My eldest set off a metal detector with a necklace one time.

[elegantlion]

I think it depends upon the size and the metal involved. My eldest set off a metal detector with a necklace one time.

 

I set off a metal detector with a gum wrapper once. It was just in my pocket though, not pierced into my body anywhere.

[Impish]

Yeah, but I think body jewelery has a higher % of steel in it. I'm thinking of gauges, belly rings, tongue studs.

 

Betting a magnet would stick. ;)

 

And to think, I *thought* those long handled magnets I bought were just for science!

[mommaduck]

Also, I'm seeing belly rings and tongue studs that are not metal (just take a peek at the selection at WM).

[Impish]

Hmph. *heads off to convince her kids they're allergic to plastic in their bodies*

 

I'll just have Wolf screen dates really closely. ;):D

[mommaduck]

I remember my grandfather grumbling when I first started dating DH. "Well, at least that's all the jewelry he has on and I'll accept it because of what it is..." (hubby wore a small cross on a chain...boys in my family were not supposed to have any jewelry, piercings, or wear pink)

[simka2]

Well it started about page 4 or 5....{ETA: the hostility started around those pages-I wasn't being specific as to posters calling other posters names}

 

Simka do you not think that claiming that people are not "real Christians" or calling them "white washed tombs" is inappropriate? Aren't you just judging them based on what someone else said about them and not after having gotten to know them? How could you claim from one short post (the OP) that people are not "real Christians?"

 

There was plenty more in the thread.

 

No, because if you read the line below that one you see that I presented a different possible explanation.

 

It might be considered judgemental to just read one line of someones post and draw a conclusion ;).

[Murphy101]

Also, I'm seeing belly rings and tongue studs that are not metal (just take a peek at the selection at WM).

 

Yes, that's not normally for the initial piercing? Only after it has healed, then obviously you can use whatever you like.

 

The body art shop around the corner only used surgical steel for the initial piercing ring or post. She says it lasts better, heals better, and there are far fewer people who have a bad reaction to them.

 

But maybe she is stricter than some. She is very good. I let her pierce the ears of my baby girls. Except for the youngest, who had to go to go the gun route because the new laws say a body shop can't do it unless they can verbally ask for it and we prefer to get the ears pierce at about a month old.

[justamouse]

Didn't read the entire thread...

 

 

2. pqr has a valid point that appearance do matter. Maybe this is one of those social lessons. When in Rome kind of things. When applying for a job, you look a certain way. When going to a wedding you look a certain way. There is a level of expected appearance that really cannot be argued away. It has nothing to do with being Christian. It's just part if humanities social structure. Bucking it won't change it much. I have a bil who hasn't had steady employment for years because he won't cut his hair and thinks he should be able to wear his rocker jeans everywhere. Sure he can. Not gonna keep a job though.

 

 

At work one of the partners is 50 and wears his hair in a death metal 80s do down to his waist.

 

No one wears button downs, everyone wears jeans and pullovers. Even the chemists. You know what matters at work? Work. Your work ethic, how creative you are, how much of a team player you are. And this is an FDA regulated facility (white coats and hairnets). Want the ultimate work experience? Go work at Google. Younger bosses are millennials. They don't care what you look like. Especially when you can fix 250k $ tableting machines with your hands tied behind your back. Granted, I know that if you work at Morgan Stanley anything less than Books Brothers is frowned upon (I have a friend who works there), but if that's your road, you're ready and willing to make those choices, you know?

 

Of course, it also helps when you own the company and wear jeans and pullovers every day. ;-)

[CAMom]

No, because if you read the line below that one you see that I presented a different possible explanation.

 

It might be considered judgemental to just read one line of someones post and draw a conclusion ;).

 

Yes, I read the whole thing.:)

 

You presented what you felt were two explanations. That's it. Either they are not "real Christians" (ie not saved) or they are motivated solely by fear. I can think of a lot of other possible explanations. Many of which would not be so negative.

 

I don't think we can judge their motivations entirely based on the OP.

 

I do think it's sad that some people would limit their contacts based exclusively on someone's appearance but I think we would draw a lot more flies with honey than vinegar when trying to help someone see things differently.

[Murphy101]

At work one of the partners is 50 and wears his hair in a death metal 80s do down to his waist.

 

No one wears button downs, everyone wears jeans and pullovers. Even the chemists. You know what matters at work? Work. Your work ethic, how creative you are, how much of a team player you are. And this is an FDA regulated facility (white coats and hairnets). Want the ultimate work experience? Go work at Google. Younger bosses are millennials. They don't care what you look like. Especially when you can fix 250k $ tableting machines with your hands tied behind your back. Granted, I know that if you work at Morgan Stanley anything less than Books Brothers is frowned upon (I have a friend who works there), but if that's your road, you're ready and willing to make those choices, you know?

 

Of course, it also helps when you own the company and wear jeans and pullovers every day. ;-)

 

Sure, if you can get a job where the boss is okay with that - lucky you.:)

But they still are no where near the norm.

Even at companies that are very relaxed, the employees that work in person with customers are usually given stricter rules.

No one is denying that there are obviously places where people who have that style have no issues.

 

My point was that if you know that your style is making things difficult for you and you know that for whatever reason your style makes other people feel uncomfortable - then own up that you are a contributor to the difficulty. It isn't all about who is more Christian or who is judging who. A good deal of it is nothing more than expected social norms for a given situation.

[LittleHouseHomeschool]

<<As soon as I finished posting, my sons came into the room and I told them about the thread. As I spoke to them, something occurred to me. There is a parallel in your son's situation with a situation in the early church. Paul gives instructions in 1 Corinthians 8. It's instruction on Christian freedom. Some people were being judged for eating meat that had been sacrificed to false idols. Paul tells the people involves that it is okay to eat the meat. But then he tells them this:

 

"If food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble." ~1 Corinthians 8:13

 

Then later he says, "Though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more." 1 Corinthians 9:19

 

 

Just wanted to address this as it has now come up in a couple threads and both times the context has been wrong. In the other thread I had dh read it and he said the problem is in the way people are applying that verse. It is meant to be applied that if (Paul) a more "mature" christian notices that one of his accepted behaviors causes a "new" believer to stumble in his young faith, than he would stop the behavior. For example: if I as a christian I feel that it is okay to drink, but a new believer comes over and is obviously distressed by my drinking...I won't do it in front of him.

 

We know this is true, because later when Peter is trying to put more rules on the new christians, Paul calls him on the carpet about it(ie circumcsion) The difference is this is a meeting of equals. Paul and Peter were equals.

 

I agree with what you've said here.

 

I simply think that someone needs to take the high road. I don't know the OP, but perhaps they are more mature than those who have chosen to shun them? I wouldn't know. I was simply giving the original poster something to think about as she encourages her son to grow through this situation. This is a tremendous opportunity to help him grow spiritually.

 

It all comes down to humility. Who will be more mature? But you are right...we need to be careful about taking passages out of context.

 

That said, we cannot control those than choose to shun us. We can only control ourselves. So I guess it boils down to examining ourselves for the "why," of what we are doing and seeking the Lord about it all. Then allowing our faith to take an action of love.

 

We are all called to that.

[tex-mex]

The way we dress, how we decorate our bodies and the music we listen to are all advertisements for who we are. When mixed messages are sent, usually mixed results are received.

 

From what you have said, your son is a believer and is not just coming to Christ. You are upset with other Christians because they will not look past his outside advertising.

 

This will not only impact him among Christians, but will also impact him in all other areas of life including jobs. In general people believe you are who you say you are by your advertising, by your actions, and least by your words.

(ETA: I have only read the posts up to this point on page one...)

I am sorry... but I completely disagree with the insensitivity of your reply to the OP. You are coming across as judgemental and the very thing her son is veering away against. God looks at the heart -- not the outside "cover".

Edited October 4, 2010 by tex-mex

[Murphy101]

In honor of this thread I'm going to where this shirt today in public.

 

I think it's very cute.

 

No doubt someone will be scandalized and worry for my kids.:D

 

http://shirt.woot.com/friends.aspx?k=14639

 

Oh well. I also let me boys dance. tango, waltz, foxtrot.... With girls. *gasp*

:tongue_smilie::D

[Slartibartfast]

In honor of this thread I'm going to where this shirt today in public.

 

I think it's very cute.

 

No doubt someone will be scandalized and worry for my kids.:D

 

http://shirt.woot.com/friends.aspx?k=14639

 

Oh well. I also let me boys dance. tango, waltz, foxtrot.... With girls. *gasp*

:tongue_smilie::D

 

 

:lol: That made me snort.

[TravelingChris]

As Laurie said, tongue piercing is a very bad idea and my kids generally don't like to hang around kids who take pride in doing a stupid and ill-advised action.

 

As Martha said, dressing in certain ways is considered to be rebellious. It is bucking the social norms of that group. In some other group, not having piercings or tattoos or edgy clothing will be the outsider thing to do. It all depends on the group.

[Mrs Mungo]

In honor of this thread I'm going to where this shirt today in public.

 

I think it's very cute.

 

No doubt someone will be scandalized and worry for my kids.:D

 

http://shirt.woot.com/friends.aspx?k=14639

 

Oh well. I also let me boys dance. tango, waltz, foxtrot.... With girls. *gasp*

:tongue_smilie::D

 

:lol:

[simka2]

As Laurie said, tongue piercing is a very bad idea and my kids generally don't like to hang around kids who take pride in doing a stupid and ill-advised action.

 

As Martha said, dressing in certain ways is considered to be rebellious. It is bucking the social norms of that group. In some other group, not having piercings or tattoos or edgy clothing will be the outsider thing to do. It all depends on the group.

 

 

I agree whole heartedly, the only problem is the OP was hurting from the hypocrisy of a group of people who worship a man who could be considered the ultimate rebel of his times. You know, bucking the sabbath and all that ;)

[simka2]

Yes, I read the whole thing.:)

 

You presented what you felt were two explanations. That's it. Either they are not "real Christians" (ie not saved) or they are motivated solely by fear. I can think of a lot of other possible explanations. Many of which would not be so negative.

 

I don't think we can judge their motivations entirely based on the OP.

 

I do think it's sad that some people would limit their contacts based exclusively on someone's appearance but I think we would draw a lot more flies with honey than vinegar when trying to help someone see things differently.

 

I actually agree with the bolded part ;)!

 

The way I see this the OP came here in pain, because of something Christians did. It not my job to look into ALL the possible reasons. To be someone that empathizes, and is safe to talk to is the kind of person I want to be. If she were asking for alternate views or advice the discussion might be very different.

 

I thought I was being more than generous in even bringing up a gentler option. The point is we don't have all the info, so better to just take her at her word ;)! and be sensitve to her in her moment of pain. KWIM?

[justamouse]

In honor of this thread I'm going to where this shirt today in public.

 

I think it's very cute.

 

No doubt someone will be scandalized and worry for my kids.:D

 

http://shirt.woot.com/friends.aspx?k=14639

 

Oh well. I also let me boys dance. tango, waltz, foxtrot.... With girls. *gasp*

:tongue_smilie::D

 

Awesome.

 

Sure, if you can get a job where the boss is okay with that - lucky you.:)

But they still are no where near the norm.

Even at companies that are very relaxed, the employees that work in person with customers are usually given stricter rules.

No one is denying that there are obviously places where people who have that style have no issues.

 

My point was that if you know that your style is making things difficult for you and you know that for whatever reason your style makes other people feel uncomfortable - then own up that you are a contributor to the difficulty. It isn't all about who is more Christian or who is judging who. A good deal of it is nothing more than expected social norms for a given situation.

 

My POV is this-if this is this kid, if this is the way he expresses himself and that is his truth, then he has absolutely every right to get upset when he is made to change because people refuse to see him, they only see his outside=their judgments. And this is going to happen more and more as these kids get older and move higher up in the workforce (50s parents and hippies, anyone?). Out here on the East Coast (spit on the ground and pour salt over your shoulder, yo) it's more normal. Not high finance and law, but for the workforce, yep.

[HistoryMom]

Just a quick note from the atheist in the corner who has read this entire thread:

 

Thank you for showing me that there are a variety of Christian perspectives on the acceptance of difference. I agree with the bulk of what's been said here today in support of the OP. I didn't know that would be the case, so thank you for that new understanding.

 

I've also been reminded that we all are flawed human beings and each do our fair share of judgement and assumption-making based on outward appearances. I need to fight harder against that tendency in myself. I appreciate the reminder.

 

Thanks again,

[OnTheBrink]

I think the portions of Scripture you quoted here fit this situation perfectly.

 

Christians, too often, let "matters of conscience" divide them. They build entire churches and doctrines around personal preferences about stuff that isn't essential, rather than living in unity.

 

One person's conscience won't allow them to wear pants or listen to rock music... so they pass judgment on those who do and teach their children to do the same and they won't worship in the same church with people who do those things... Another person feels free to drink alcohol in moderation and wear red bras...;) they pass judgement on the brother with the "weaker conscience" and then act unlovingly toward them by openly flaunting their freedoms in front of them, etc. And, because of mutual judgment, the church remains divided.

 

The verses you quoted inform this situation, but the Scriptures are more balanced than what you implied. Paul goes on to say, "Do not let anyone speak evil of that which you believe is good." So, while Paul says we are supposed to refrain from doing things (like drinking or wearing certain kinds of clothes) in front of Christians who we know will take offense to those things, we do not have to let their conscience dictate our stances and we do not have to stand by and let them bash Christians who feel free to do those things.

 

Case in point: My husband and I feel free to drink, not in excess, just in moderation. It's more important to be filled with the Holy Spirit. In fact, stuff we buy usually goes bad before we use it all. Just to point out how little we actually consume.

 

But, anyway, that said, while we feel free to do that in private and in certain company, but when his parents come to visit, before they arrive, we get rid of all our alcohol. We do not drink in front of them. We do NOT think this is hypocritical, but rather, a loving consideration of what they do not feel free to do. (We dance, but we didn't dance at our wedding for our family's sake, etc.)

 

Now, they KNOW we drink. They KNOW why we feel free to do so. We've had long conversations about the topic. But, we respect them, so we don't do it in front of them. We think that doing so may grieve the Holy Spirit, harm the unity we have with them, and we think they are more important than our freedom to drink. But, if they launch into a sermon on the evils of Christians who feel free to drink, we feel free to defend our freedom to do so without fearing their condemnation of us... God is our judge and we do everything in good conscience before him.

 

I think that is what Scripture teaches us to do. We each must do everything without sinning against our own consciences and if anything we do causes us to feel doubt (that God wouldn't approve), we shouldn't do it... no matter what people say in defense of it, because everything must be done "in faith."

 

Thanks for bringing up those Scriptures. They are some of the best to inform these "grey areas" that cause so much trouble in the Christian church.

 

Excellent post!

[Gwenhwyfar]

this thread has me wanting more bits of metal. :laugh:

 

(i only wear my nose ring now, but up until a couple of years ago i also had my left eyebrow, labret, & left lower lip done as well.)

[Rosie_0801]

i've seen this repeated a few times in this thread and it leaves me curious ~ how in the world would anyone know if they had 'shared interests' or such with someone else until getting to know them?

 

i'm currently wearing a nose ring. can you tell me what my hobbies are? my favourite tv show? books that i enjoy? foods i like to cook? anything at all - beyond the fact that i like nose rings?

 

of course not.

 

 

Of course not. Surely you understand, though, why people use appearance judgments to make a "yes/no/maybe" decision on future interactions.

 

1. It is the most easily available information to anyone with reasonable vision, which is nearly everyone.

 

2. We don't have the capacity to befriend everyone, so we have to use some process of elimination, and we need it to be a quick process. For practical purposes, it doesn't matter if it is a fair process, it matters that it reduces our social interactions down to manageable so we can function.

 

Yes, it sucks to be on the receiving end of the "no" judgments; but that is a consequence of the choices we make about our appearances. If we decide our visual appearance as we've chosen it to be is more important to us than being accepted by people who don't accept people who look like us, then we must take responsibility for that.

 

Yes it sucks that people making judgments on appearance are missing out on people who that may really click with, but one must assume they already have enough people in their lives, or they wouldn't be so fussy.

 

What is really lousy is people who've known a kid for years suddenly shunning him because he's started growing his hair, or some such thing. What do they think? Hair growth is directly proportional to an interest in growing pot in his mum's basement? It would make more sense to cheerfully tease him about his hairdo and continue to converse as you always have. Or if you haven't, and you are truly concerned, start talking and you'll probably find out what you are looking for. If they choose not to do that, the kid can only assume they didn't care about him. Now they are not under any obligation to care, but it is not nice to find out people who you thought cared don't.

 

Rosie

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

Of course not. Surely you understand, though, why people use appearance judgments to make a "yes/no/maybe" decision on future interactions.

 

1. It is the most easily available information to anyone with reasonable vision, which is nearly everyone.

 

2. We don't have the capacity to befriend everyone, so we have to use some process of elimination, and we need it to be a quick process. For practical purposes, it doesn't matter if it is a fair process, it matters that it reduces our social interactions down to manageable so we can function.

 

Yes, it sucks to be on the receiving end of the "no" judgments; but that is a consequence of the choices we make about our appearances. If we decide our visual appearance as we've chosen it to be is more important to us than being accepted by people who don't accept people who look like us, then we must take responsibility for that.

 

Yes it sucks that people making judgments on appearance are missing out on people who that may really click with, but one must assume they already have enough people in their lives, or they wouldn't be so fussy.

 

What is really lousy is people who've known a kid for years suddenly shunning him because he's started growing his hair, or some such thing. What do they think? Hair growth is directly proportional to an interest in growing pot in his mum's basement? It would make more sense to cheerfully tease him about his hairdo and continue to converse as you always have. Or if you haven't, and you are truly concerned, start talking and you'll probably find out what you are looking for. If they choose not to do that, the kid can only assume they didn't care about him. Now they are not under any obligation to care, but it is not nice to find out people who you thought cared don't.

 

Rosie

 

One of the most sensible posts I've read on this thread.

 

So funny the Christians here name calling and judging others "back". Weird.

 

I know lot's of ppl who aren't Christians who would not let their children model after Hollywood, current fashion, or def. not let them get piercings. Sheesh. I don't want my kids to look like the vampires or rock stars (Hollywood, media). If they were a vampire, well, okay, but they're not. ;) How embarrassing if these were my children's role models. I don't apologize for it AT ALL. Would I feel comfy having one of their friends around who looked like that. I don't like it!! Period. Bible or no. So, probably not.

Edited October 4, 2010 by mommyjen

[dirty ethel rackham]

Yes...he may be a great kid, but that is not the point.

 

But for many of us, this is precisely the point. Being a great kid is the important part. For me, the person is more important than the outer trappings. The tongue piercing is not a choice I would want my kids to make, but I have confidence that they would make an intelligent choice because I didn't raise them to be sheeple.

[Murphy101]

My POV is this-if this is this kid, if this is the way he expresses himself and that is his truth, then he has absolutely every right to get upset when he is made to change because people refuse to see him, they only see his outside=their judgments. And this is going to happen more and more as these kids get older and move higher up in the workforce.

 

I think it is unhealthy to be that emotionally attached to what a person wears. I mean I love my jeans and tshirts, but I don't get upset about wearing something more suitable for a different situation, especially if in theory at least, it is a situation where I want people to feel comfortable with me. There is no "truth" to my clothes or my hair or my (lack of) makeup. That's like saying my truth is the navy blue paint in my school room. No it isn't. Sure I like it, but it is not some deep truth.:confused:

 

What is really lousy is people who've known a kid for years suddenly shunning him because he's started growing his hair, or some such thing. What do they think? Hair growth is directly proportional to an interest in growing pot in his mum's basement? It would make more sense to cheerfully tease him about his hairdo and continue to converse as you always have. Or if you haven't, and you are truly concerned, start talking and you'll probably find out what you are looking for. If they choose not to do that, the kid can only assume they didn't care about him. Now they are not under any obligation to care, but it is not nice to find out people who you thought cared don't.

 

Rosie

 

:iagree:

[Garga]

I'm not sure if this really contributes to the conversation, but recently I've felt funny for wearing dressy clothes at church.

 

No one has said anything or looked at me a certain way...but I've wondered if my "dressy" clothes are off-putting to the more casual people. I've wondered if they see me in a skirt and heels, makeup and jewelry and are assuming that I'm judging them for their casual clothes! How twisted is that! (Maybe I just need to get over myself. No one is probably looking at me anyway!)

 

I haven't worn my dresses in about 2 months because I don't want to give the vibe that I'm dressing up because I'm smug.

 

P.S. I've always made a point to give a cheery smile to the teenagers I see in the hall--no matter what they're wearing. Then I wonder if they think I'm that crazy old lady who gives them the cheesy grins. I just want them to feel welcome...but am not sure how to do it!

[HRAAB]

I realize this thread has become more about piercings and tattoos, but I want to point out that I have seen people shunned (and no, I did not imagine it) because the women wear jeans and shorts (not super short), sleeveless tops, color their hair, read Harry Potter, listen to music other than Christian music and their marriages are based on respect, not Biblical submission plus probably a few other things I can't think of right now. I imagine there are quite a few of us who have felt the sting of being singled out, not because we are outlandish in our dress, but rather because we don't feel obligated to follow others' extremely strict and radical interpretations of the Bible and church teaching.

 

Then if you want to add into that mix that we're Catholic, and not radically conservative ones, that adds another whole layer of reasons why we're to be avoided by some people.

 

And it can most definitely impact your faith. Even though I know not to base my faith on people, it still does have a huge impact when people you share beliefs with treat you in such a manner. It certainly could easily impact a teen, who is at a very vulnerable point in life, with their faith when people of faith act this way.

[Murphy101]

But for many of us, this is precisely the point. Being a great kid is the important part. For me, the person is more important than the outer trappings. The tongue piercing is not a choice I would want my kids to make, but I have confidence that they would make an intelligent choice because I didn't raise them to be sheeple.

 

So now this lady's kid is some sheeple?:001_huh:

Or just not intelligent?:001_huh:

 

I'm going to assume that is not what you intended.:)

 

Truth is that who our closest friends are and who we spend the majority of our time with DOES impact how we think, feel, and to some extent, how we act. This is doubly true of teens, whose personalities are evolving and looking to discover who they want to be. If a parent is contributing or encouraging or accepting of what I deem as distractive behavior THAT will bother me far more than what the kid has done.

 

Pretty much every parent has at some point said the same variation on any topic of your choice.

 

I have confidence that my child will make an intelligent choice and not sheeply imitate others in __________. (insert whatever... drinking, pot, piercing, tattoo, sex, academic cheating, lying about whatever, cussing, change/loose

faith, speed, look at porn, bully someone...)

 

Maybe some are just way better mothers than me.

Probably.

But I just don't feel the slightest amount, much less the public Zeus-sized declaration of hubris, of confidence or pride in my ability to bend any one, much less all 9, of my children's free will to the degree that I am willing to say that about anything.

 

My children have done things that made me look at them in complete

:blink::huh::ohmy: because they are each individual thinking creatures with free will.

 

I'll say I'm doing the best I can to teach them what I believe to be right and to be good and to be best for them.

 

I'll say I wouldn't go along with many things and there's some things, a few, I'd absolutely resort to tough love over.

 

But the ONLY thing parenting 9 children so far has taught me with absolute confidence is that free will sucks when you are a parent. God started with only two kids and He was very clear in His expectations, affectionate, always

there in every way for them, and they could do anything except one thing. And they did it! That passage and the one where Mary loses Jesus are the ones where I identify the most with Our Father in Heaven. Whenever I worry about whether I'm doing enough, I try to remember that I sure ain't God and I sure ain't the virgin Mary and God couldn't make just two obey and Mary LOST the Christ Child! And suddenly I feel a bit better that things will turn out okay in the end. They disobey occasionally, but nothing so far that will bring suffering for thousands of years to all of humanity and I have never taken more than a stalled heart beats to find the ones that tend to wander off, vs the three DAYS Mary couldn't find her 12 year old son.

 

But then again, maybe no one will want to hang out with me because of my irreverent references above even.

 

There's just no pleasin some folks.

[CAMom]

I actually agree with the bolded part ;)!

 

The way I see this the OP came here in pain, because of something Christians did. It not my job to look into ALL the possible reasons. To be someone that empathizes, and is safe to talk to is the kind of person I want to be. If she were asking for alternate views or advice the discussion might be very different.

 

I thought I was being more than generous in even bringing up a gentler option. The point is we don't have all the info, so better to just take her at her word ;)! and be sensitve to her in her moment of pain. KWIM?

 

Oh I agree that we need to be empathetic to the OP. I feel terrible for her son if, in fact, he is simply be judged on his appearance.

 

Where I noticed the problem is when Mamageek came in and basically got skewered. Then when she bowed out she got some less than gracious responses. I'm just saying that the empathy and grace should go all the way around.:)

[Murphy101]

And it can most definitely impact your faith. Even though I know not to base my faith on people, it still does have a huge impact when people you share beliefs with treat you in such a manner. It certainly could easily impact a teen, who is at a very vulnerable point in life, with their faith when people of faith act this way.

 

From one RC to another :grouphug:

[SailorMom]

Yes - it can absolutely impact faith. As a matter of fact - this sort of behavior (among other things) caused me to question my faith and do a lot of soul searching and research.

I'm now a diest.

I have also been told that because I read Harry Potter I am a Satanist who will go to - uh - well - somewhere very hot - by women who hold themselves in high esteem.

[happyWImom]

I don't know how I missed this post before, but I did, and I want to reply, before I read through all of the responses (and probably the disagreements).

 

First of all, I am sorry for your sons experiences, and the hurt you are both going through. When we see our children hurting, I think we hurt twice as much.:grouphug:

 

Second of all, it is very hard to see other Christian's acting in Un-Christian ways, especially at our own expense. But, we have to constantly remind ourselves that God is the one we believe in-and that He doesn't judge, and is constant-not the other "so-called Christians" that you've been around. And we aren't to judge them, either. He will. It's not up to us.

 

I guess you can look at it this way, knowing how these people are, you wouldn't want to be part of them or have your son be part of them, would you? Ideally, you would want them to be different and to accept your son, but that's not the way it is, so just wash your hands of them. Try not to get caught up in the anger (easier said than done, I know) and be done with it, and them.

 

I haven't read all of the responses, but I can guess that there have been a lot that have to do with appearances, etc... And it is real easy to get caught up in that. I'm already having to hold myself back from dictating to my dd (8!) on how she looks. But then I stop myself. I just tell my dc that you just need to be "presentable", and by that, I mean clean, hair brushed (wear it however you want), clean clothes (wear whatever combo you want), age appropriate (meaning not sexy-not dressing like an adult), but that's it. If she wants to wear face paint to church, dress up like a cat or wear summer clothes in winter, I don't care. I'm glad that they aren't "conforming to the patterns of this world" and acting like little sheep.:001_smile:

 

So stay strong, and in the words of Journey "Don't stop believing"!:D

[justasque]

I think it is unhealthy to be that emotionally attached to what a person wears. I mean I love my jeans and tshirts, but I don't get upset about wearing something more suitable for a different situation, especially if in theory at least, it is a situation where I want people to feel comfortable with me. There is no "truth" to my clothes or my hair or my (lack of) makeup. That's like saying my truth is the navy blue paint in my school room. No it isn't. Sure I like it, but it is not some deep truth.

 

I think it's that way for some people, but for others, it really deeply matters to them what they look like and how they present themselves to others. I can think of one kid I know who has always been a very feminine girl - always wearing skirts and dresses, etc., even when climbing trees or playing in a creek. She is miserable when she has to wear "sensible" unfeminine clothes. I can think of another who has only very rarely worn a dress - it's just not her, she doesn't feel "herself" in one. I know women who don't feel right if their hair is too long, and others who don't feel right if their hair is too short. I can think of a few men I know who are very careful about their appearance and try to be very fashion-forward, and others who wear the first thing they pull out of the drawer, whether it matches or not.

 

I saw a picture once of women in a prison, from the 1950's or 60's. They made their own uniforms from striped fabric. Most of them look exactly the same, but there are a handful of women who took the fabric and made something unique. Somehow, even in that drab environment, they needed to bring a little of their own style to their appearance.

 

Things can be very hard for someone who is drawn to dressing in a way that doesn't mesh with their cultural surroundings. Somehow this "taste" thing is a part of us, in a way that I don't fully understand. For some people, it seems like it's not that easy to do what everyone else does just to get along.

[Mimm]

So now this lady's kid is some sheeple?:001_huh:

Or just not intelligent?:001_huh:

 

I'm going to assume that is not what you intended.:)

 

Truth is that who our closest friends are and who we spend the majority of our time with DOES impact how we think, feel, and to some extent, how we act.

 

 

I can't be sure, but I think what she meant was that her kids are not sheep, meaning they won't do something (like get a tongue ring) just because a friend does.

 

And yes, our friends may influence us, but I think people are overestimating that influence. I was homeschooled growing up and my best friend got her tongue pierced when we were teens and I never had the least desire to do that. (I also didn't let it interfere with my friendship with her. Yay for a middle ground!) Your children are homeschooled. They probably value peer approval less than the average teen. Isn't that one of the many advantages of homeschooling?