Rant/hurt/ want christians to learn love instead of judgement

[JessReplanted]

I would really suggest that you try to find a church that is more open to the "less than cookie-cutter" Christian. We are out there. Your son shouldn't have to feel isolated and alone b/c he doesn't look like a Duggar. (and I love the Duggars.. just a good example though).

[JessReplanted]

i guess I can see both sides to this equation. I don't think people should have to be all like in order to be accepted. But sometimes we as parents tend to make quick jugments based on what we see or hear.

 

Here is one of my areas of ignorance: "heavy metal music." Based on what I have SEEN, and to a small degree, heard, i would "assume" (wrongly?) that the music has bad lyrics. In fact even now I'm thinking I have never heard of the concept of heavy metal and "socially acceptable lyrics."

 

So from your post I learned something new. Is there even Christian metal, maybe? I know there is Christian rock, but to me "metal" has always signaled that whole anti-social "we don't want our teens to go there" category.

 

If you can educate those of us parents who think "metal = bad" maybe that would be a step in the right direction!

 

Wow... Ok, I would suggest that you equate 'metal' with 'rock'. There is a lot of very loud Christian rock music with appropriate lyrics. (I don't have any desire to listen to it, but it is out there).

[Trish]

According to Wikipedia there IS Christian metal. I certainly didn't know that.

 

:D

[Macrina]

I have a visible tattoo and my nose is pierced. That being said I am the head teacher of a SOTW class that is made up of mostly Christian families and no one has a problem with it. That being said I have always felt that homeschooled secular kids are better company for my dc then public schooled Christian families. I think that says something. Look for evangelical churches or investigate Orthodox Christianity. You are going to find more people prone to have an issue with your son in reformed circles (IMO).

[mommaduck]

i guess I can see both sides to this equation. I don't think people should have to be all like in order to be accepted. But sometimes we as parents tend to make quick jugments based on what we see or hear.

 

Here is one of my areas of ignorance: "heavy metal music." Based on what I have SEEN, and to a small degree, heard, i would "assume" (wrongly?) that the music has bad lyrics. In fact even now I'm thinking I have never heard of the concept of heavy metal and "socially acceptable lyrics."

 

So from your post I learned something new. Is there even Christian metal, maybe? I know there is Christian rock, but to me "metal" has always signaled that whole anti-social "we don't want our teens to go there" category.

 

If you can educate those of us parents who think "metal = bad" maybe that would be a step in the right direction!

Yes, there is Christian metal (didn't know this till highschool when I met my husband and he introduced me to Bloodgood and WhiteCross). My fundamentalist church did not even permit Contemporary Christian Music, let alone Christian rock and Christian metal. More conservative or fundamentalist churches believe that it's not the lyrics, but the music that is bad. The reasons range from "it started out as, was used for 'the devil's music'" to "if it stresses the first and third beat, it's a march and glorifies God's armies and if it stresses the second and third beat, then you want to dance to it and that is found in 'the devil's music' throughout the world" :glare:

 

So yes, it exists. Those parents may or may not know this, but if they do, they most likely already have a reason against it as well.

[mommaduck]

I have a visible tattoo and my nose is pierced. That being said I am the head teacher of a SOTW class that is made up of mostly Christian families and no one has a problem with it. That being said I have always felt that homeschooled secular kids are better company for my dc then public schooled Christian families. I think that says something. Look for evangelical churches or investigate Orthodox Christianity. You are going to find more people prone to have an issue with your son in reformed circles (IMO).

:iagree: Sometimes I feel that I get along better with people that aren't out trying to "prove their faith" but rather simply living it. There are people out there that don't go around talking about Christianity, that may not look like your typical Christian, but you can see through their lives and the way they treat others. There are those that aren't Christian that have treated me as a sister when various other Christians treated me like garbage. It's sad.

 

I've found the least amount of judgment in the Orthodox Church, honestly (and this isn't me telling you that that would be the only place, just my own testamony). I'm not having to live up to another's view of Christianity, instead I'm allowed to walk this journey with peace.

[Meriwether]

Sure, casually dressed women with babies in a convention center usually stocked with business people would signal "homeschooler convention this way." BUT, you also have variables within that group. There are fundamentalist homeschoolers, hippie homeschoolers and plenty of us in the middle. I would not automatically assume that the moms in denim jumpers are legalistic Christians and I would not automatically assume that the moms with dreads are UUs (I've known too many UUs in denim jumpers and dreadlocked Christians). That's because my life experience tells me that you cannot really tell much about people's beliefs and/or character based upon the way they are dressed. I've known horrible people who present themselves very well.

 

Do *some people* make assumptions based upon how people are dressed? Sure they do. But, I think it's a mistake on several levels. I do not think it's a matter of human nature, I think it's a matter of cultural conditioning. I think that conditioning breaks down when you associate with lots of different types of people.

 

:iagree:wholeheartedly with everything in your last paragraph except the bit about human nature. This isssue is about cultural conditioning (and I don't think it is right!), but it is human nature to define yourself in a group context. I couldn't care less about my home town now, but I rooted like crazy for the home team while living there. And I agree that your appearance doesn't say anything about your character; I'm saying you make a statement about yourself that others might read more into than you intend. If I saw a teenage kid carrying around a pacifier when I taught school, I would peg that kid as one to keep my eye on because that was a gang thing. I always gave my students the benefit of a doubt, but I would have been watching.

[easygoer]

 

Why are his choices acceptable but mine not so?

 

This is the only thing, it's been bugging me all night long. I have not caught up on the morning's replies so if I'm repeating something then I'll just lend my voice...

 

His *choices* are about the way he treats...HIS HAIR. Your *choices* are about the way you treat another person.

 

You can't compare the way I treat MY HAIR with the way I treat YOUR KIDS. You see no difference in effect and consequence?

 

This whole "you're being intolerant of my intolerance" argument I have never been able to wrap my mind around, to pretend that all "choices" are just equal "choices."

[mommaduck]

Oh my goodness....I have a red bra and I NEVER wear nylon stockings. Where does that leave me??? :lol:

 

Diane W.

married for 22 years

homeschooling 3 kiddos for 16 years

The first time I bought a black bra, my mama asked me if I was having teA (there are people that think that way). My stepdad said only whores get their ears pierced (of course, with the exclusion of his mother and sister :glare: ).

[....]

My husband said that he knew of a church in a small NC town near them whose pastor DID post a list on the door. Something along the lines of, "No pants, no jewelry, no makeup", etc. He claims that if you entered without abiding by the rules you would be promptly escorted out.

 

I personally know of a preacher who wouldn't baptize men with long hair. They had to get a "proper haircut" first. Can you imagine Jesus refusing to baptize someone because they had long hair? Or refusing for ANY reason? :glare:

 

OK, how can I say this diplomatically? I don't want to offend anyone...but there seems to be a group of American Christians who are almost creating their own version of Christianity, which is unrecognizable to those of us in the "older denominations". I've been reading lots of Dietrich Bonhoeffer this year and when he visited the United States in the '30's, he said American Christianity was so fragmented - he said the pastors from Europe had never seen anything like it. He was also quoted as having a huge concern about our theology.

 

I'm not going to say "someone's right" and "someone's wrong", but I think it's disturbing that we're all so broken up into groups in Christianity. I have friends who are fundamentalist and I'm pretty sure they would have no idea what we were doing or why in one of our services. On the other hand, I would not be allowed to take Communion at their church (by my own church's rules). :confused:

 

I also don't equate clothing with Christianity. Jesus even says, "Pay no attention to the clothing you wear." Think of all the horrific murders and genocide happening all over the world...do you think it matters that your teenager has wild hair?

 

Maybe at some point, we're all going to come together as one group. I agree with Bonhoeffer. I think we're all too fragmented. I'm not sure why and I'm not sure how it would fix itself. I'm definitely not a pastor. :glare:

[Nakia]

This is the only thing, it's been bugging me all night long. I have not caught up on the morning's replies so if I'm repeating something then I'll just lend my voice...

 

His *choices* are about the way he treats...HIS HAIR. Your *choices* are about the way you treat another person.

 

You can't compare the way I treat MY HAIR with the way I treat YOUR KIDS. You see no difference in effect and consequence?

 

This whole "you're being intolerant of my intolerance" argument I have never been able to wrap my mind around, to pretend that all "choices" are just equal "choices."

 

This! Thank you. I could not, for the life of me, figure out how to word it. You did a great job.

 

I find it interesting that those of us who are what others might call "loose" Christians :rolleyes: are reprimanded for being judgmental of someone being judgmental. The truth is we are all just sick of the legalism and the falling away of what it means to be a Christian--a Christ follower. All the extra-biblical rules and regulations are mind-boggling, to be honest. Are we not allowed to be righteously angry at someone who judges and hurts a young man, who is a Christ follower, on the basis of his appearance?

[elegantlion]

For those wondering about christian metal, CBD has an entire section. :D

Edited October 4, 2010 by elegantlion

[mommaduck]

That is why I have stated, on multiple occassions, that I am not arguing from a Christian perspective and make no Biblical reference.

I may not have read far enough yet, but I'm going to ask: then WHAT are you basing your view on? Where is your bias coming from (and yes, I'm aware that everyone has bias, that's why I'm asking).

[Nakia]

I may not have read far enough yet, but I'm going to ask: then WHAT are you basing your view on? Where is your bias coming from (and yes, I'm aware that everyone has bias, that's why I'm asking).

 

I think it has something to do with the fact that he doesn't want the bad influence to rub off on his kids. And I think it's his personal decision. I have no idea his religious leanings.

[TXMomof4]

That is why I have stated, on multiple occassions, that I am not arguing from a Christian perspective and make no Biblical reference.

 

I haven't read the whole thread, but just wanted to put this out there. The problem OP is having (from my understanding) is that it is a Christian group that is behaving this way. Not a group at the mall, not a group as PS, not a group at the park. A group claiming to have the heart of Christ.

 

The church is supposed to be a haven for believers. A place where we can come together with people who have experienced the love and forgiveness of God and can rejoice in that - regardless of any worldly concerns. The concern over appearances is a very worldly influence.

 

Your beliefs or choices for parenting just aren't what the problem is here. The problem is that a group of people calling themselves Christians are denying fellowship to someone based solely on their own judgement. If her son went and applied for a job and didn't get it based on his appearance, that would be one thing. An employer has the right to judge based on appearance. A Christian doesn't have that right. Period.

[mommaduck]

I think it has something to do with the fact that he doesn't want the bad influence to rub off on his kids. And I think it's his personal decision. I have no idea his religious leanings.

But what is he basing the assumption that this kid is a "bad influence"? I've seen skirt wearing, Gothardite girls that were horrible influences on a church (lying, leading boys on, causing other forms of trouble) and the girls that were excluded from the youth group (for psing, cheerleading, wearing jeans and halters) were the sweetest, most caring people you ever met and could actually explain their faith. This was an observation from me, a headcovering, skirtwearing, hsing mama (though you can add that I've gotten funky with my coverings and love big hoop earrings...this thread is also making me really want to add pink or purple to my hair).

 

So, I'm curious, WHAT "bad influence" is pqr ASSUMING about this kid?

[Nakia]

But what is he basing the assumption that this kid is a "bad influence"? I've seen skirt wearing, Gothardite girls that were horrible influences on a church (lying, leading boys on, causing other forms of trouble) and the girls that were excluded from the youth group (for psing, cheerleading, wearing jeans and halters) were the sweetest, most caring people you ever met and could actually explain their faith. This was an observation from me, a headcovering, skirtwearing, hsing mama (though you can add that I've gotten funky with my coverings and love big hoop earrings...this thread is also making me really want to add pink or purple to my hair).

 

So, I'm curious, WHAT "bad influence" is pqr ASSUMING about this kid?

 

I'm curious, too. And we will probably not get a straight answer. ;)

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

:grouphug:

I'm sorry to hear your son is going through such a difficult time.

I'm sorrier still that he's allowed the behavior of others to influence how he feels about what his Savior has done for him.

The fact is that people are going to disappoint your ds for the rest of his life.

His relationship with the Lord should be based on what he knows to be true about Christ and his own need for a Savior and not how others are behaving. As painful as this time may be, it's also a wonderful opportunity for him to dive into the scriptures, letting God speak to his heart and strengthening his relationship with the One he can always count on.

 

 

 

I think this is the most important point in all 20 pages of this argument. A difficult but adult decision about religion and faith comes when one is forced to look at faith/religion as a personal issue and not a social group. I hope this is an issue your son can come to terms with in a manner he finds comforting.

 

Secondly, for a group of folks preaching understanding of different life choices there is much intolerance of one point of view going on. Let's face it, we all make choices on how to look, how to live, what words we choose to express ourselves and the people we meet judge us based on those choices. Fair or not, like it or not, that is how the world works. When you make those choices you have to be willing to live with the consequences. Even when the consequences are difficult and may not reflect the full picture of the individual in question. This is a two way street, one person's choice to have a body piercing and tattoos is judged just as much as the next person's choice to have manicured nails and a designer handbag. (Or insert which ever pair of opposites you choose.) Seeing them doesn't tell you who they are but like it or not we all get first impressions based on such appearances.

 

And, FWIW, why does an avatar matter? Is it because it is a visual cue to who someone is on the board or is it just a high tech way to judge appearances?

[MSNative]

I think this is the most important point in all 20 pages of this argument. A difficult but adult decision about religion and faith comes when one is forced to look at faith/religion as a personal issue and not a social group. I hope this is an issue your son can come to terms with in a manner he finds comforting.

 

Secondly, for a group of folks preaching understanding of different life choices there is much intolerance of one point of view going on. Let's face it, we all make choices on how to look, how to live, what words we choose to express ourselves and the people we meet judge us based on those choices. Fair or not, like it or not, that is how the world works. When you make those choices you have to be willing to live with the consequences. Even when the consequences are difficult and may not reflect the full picture of the individual in question. This is a two way street, one person's choice to have a body piercing and tattoos is judged just as much as the next person's choice to have manicured nails and a designer handbag. (Or insert which ever pair of opposites you choose.) Seeing them doesn't tell you who they are but like it or not we all get first impressions based on such appearances.

 

QUOTE]

 

Well said.

[Daisy]

I'm a very conservative Christian in appearance and behavior. Unfortunately, sometimes I judge people by their appearance. I acknowledge it is human behavior. Yes, other people do it, too. I've just never thought it was something to be proud of or try to justify.

 

What I expected to hear on this thread was a response to a hurting woman and teenager that sounded something like this...

 

I'm sorry the Christian community has hurt you. We (all of us) need to be better at looking beyond appearances because that is what Jesus would have done. I hope your son finds true friends and that his faith is strengthened.

 

Why don't we just take responsibility and acknowledge this is an area that the church could improve upon?

[Impish]

Friend of mine owns a music studio. He was hiring for a part time (student) position. In his posting, he bluntly stated that anyone with facial piercings need not apply.

 

It wasn't because he's Christian (though he is), its because he's a civilian instructor for Pipe and Drum for the Cadets (I forget which branch) and he holds the same standard as the Cadets do for dress code/appearance.

 

We all make judgements. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

 

I'm sorry your son was hurt.

 

Unfortunately, some personal choices make a statement. Facial piercings being one of them. And not everyone is going to agree/support/ignore the statement being made. And they have as much right to their viewpoint as anyone else does.

 

I don't know what the Christian reason would be...for some people, they just find some piercings to be off putting and well...icky. *shrug*

[TXMomof4]

I'm a very conservative Christian in appearance and behavior. Unfortunately, sometimes I judge people by their appearance. I acknowledge it is human behavior. Yes, other people do it, too. I've just never thought it was something to be proud of or try to justify.

 

What I expected to hear on this thread was a response to a hurting woman and teenager that sounded something like this...

 

I'm sorry the Christian community has hurt you. We (all of us) need to be better at looking beyond appearances because that is what Jesus would have done. I hope your son finds true friends and that his faith is strengthened.

 

Why don't we just take responsibility and acknowledge this is an area that the church could improve upon?

 

Yup! Acknowledging that this is something Christians struggle with - across the board is a huge step. If we won't welcome a friend's child because of his hair color, how can we prepare to welcome a stranger who is truly living a life that we might have reason to object to. If we can't welcome that stranger, how could we ever hope to touch that strangers life. If we reject a friend's child because of his hair, are we prepared to answer to God for that rejection?

 

I'm not saying discernment has no place, but the only way to get to know a person's heart or intentions is to spend time with them.

[PineFarmMom]

I think this is the most important point in all 20 pages of this argument. A difficult but adult decision about religion and faith comes when one is forced to look at faith/religion as a personal issue and not a social group. I hope this is an issue your son can come to terms with in a manner he finds comforting.

 

Secondly, for a group of folks preaching understanding of different life choices there is much intolerance of one point of view going on. Let's face it, we all make choices on how to look, how to live, what words we choose to express ourselves and the people we meet judge us based on those choices. Fair or not, like it or not, that is how the world works. When you make those choices you have to be willing to live with the consequences. Even when the consequences are difficult and may not reflect the full picture of the individual in question. This is a two way street, one person's choice to have a body piercing and tattoos is judged just as much as the next person's choice to have manicured nails and a designer handbag. (Or insert which ever pair of opposites you choose.) Seeing them doesn't tell you who they are but like it or not we all get first impressions based on such appearances.

 

 

 

:iagree: Very well said!! My kids won't be having piercings/tattoos, etc., while we are supporting them, but I have had many discussions about this type of thing with them. More than me guiding them to expect the whole, wide world to line up with them and embrace their decision to get a tattoo or piercing (that is completely impractical and not grounded in reality), I encourage them to make sure that they are ready for the fact that some people will have an immediate opinion formed upon seeing them. A piercing or tattoo is a personal decision and needs to be thought through in a logical way and is based on the personal responsibility of the person who chooses the tattoo/piercing and not on all the world around them. Expecting everyone to sing kumbaya and embrace their decision would be pretty out of touch with reality!! This is the real world we live in here. I certainly would discourage them from basing their faith on the actions and thoughts of anyone around them. That is not authentic faith anyway. Their relationship with the Lord will ultimately take them through highs and lows, friendships and the loss thereof, churches and church hurts, etc. I want my own faith and theirs to be a lasting and deep one, not one based on the flawed people around us.

[Julie in CA]

I am friendly & polite to people I meet.

At the same time, my very best friends are people with whom I have a lot in common and/or have shared interests. Are people truly "shunning" a kid who looks very different, or are they looking at what he's choosing to present of himself and assuming that they probably do not have either a lot in common or shared interests? Not choosing to carry an acquaintance over into close friendship doesn't necessarily mean condemnation.

 

Even at the risk of becoming a target of condemnation myself, I'm going to have to say that I agree with the few posters who've pointed out the hypocrisy of calling for tolerance while at the same time, being very intolerant of those with differing viewpoints. :001_huh:

Edited October 4, 2010 by Julie in CA

[sparrow]

I'm a very conservative Christian in appearance and behavior. Unfortunately, sometimes I judge people by their appearance. I acknowledge it is human behavior. Yes, other people do it, too. I've just never thought it was something to be proud of or try to justify.

 

What I expected to hear on this thread was a response to a hurting woman and teenager that sounded something like this...

 

I'm sorry the Christian community has hurt you. We (all of us) need to be better at looking beyond appearances because that is what Jesus would have done. I hope your son finds true friends and that his faith is strengthened.

 

Why don't we just take responsibility and acknowledge this is an area that the church could improve upon?

 

 

And this is the reason I have not *completely* given up on a path back to true faith. Thanks.

[justamouse]

Maybe at some point, we're all going to come together as one group. I agree with Bonhoeffer. I think we're all too fragmented. I'm not sure why and I'm not sure how it would fix itself. I'm definitely not a pastor. :glare:

 

I totally agree. (and I love Bonhoeffer, too) This is an American thing-these rules and fundamentalist fissions within the church. We need to revisit who Christ is.

 

A great book I've been reading is JESUS MANIFESTO by Viola and Sweet. Basically a wake up call reminding the church who Christ is.

[justamouse]

This is the only thing, it's been bugging me all night long. I have not caught up on the morning's replies so if I'm repeating something then I'll just lend my voice...

 

His *choices* are about the way he treats...HIS HAIR. Your *choices* are about the way you treat another person.

 

You can't compare the way I treat MY HAIR with the way I treat YOUR KIDS. You see no difference in effect and consequence?

 

This whole "you're being intolerant of my intolerance" argument I have never been able to wrap my mind around, to pretend that all "choices" are just equal "choices."

 

This is it. Perfect. You totally nailed it. :iagree:

[astrid]

If there's one thing I've learned in my life, it's "Never Say Never....."

 

I've read a lot of folks over the years on this board and in real life say things like, "My kid would NEVER ______________!"

 

or

 

"I would NEVER allow _______________ in my home."

 

Children are not objects or animals whose every move/thought/desire/action we as parents can control, as much as we'd like to think we can. Some of those very same parents who believed that, for instance, their dd would NEVER have premarital s*x have become early grandparents, no doubt. I've read about that very situation several times on this board, in fact. Children are human beings, not robots. With guidance and love, we all hope our kids make choices of which we approve ALL the time. But the fact is, sometimes they don't. That's all part of growing up, learning who they are, and finding their niche in the world.

 

As adults, most of us have the foresight to anticipate possible consequences of of our actions, then weigh those consequences against our desire to make that choice. At 17--- not so much. And for all we know, perhaps the OP once thought that no kid of HERS would EVER pierce or tattoo ANY body part. Parenting is on-the-job training, and right now, the mama is hurting because her baby is hurting. He's hurting because of the actions of others, and it smarts all the more coming from their fellow Christ followers.

 

We all just do our best, and hope and pray that it's good enough. It's a tricky business, dealing with absolutes.

 

astrid (JMHO, YMMV)

[Nakia]

Yet again, I want to ask are we not allowed to feel righteous anger at the situation the OP has given us? Why not? I am angry that Christians reject a child because of his appearance. That is not being intolerant. I am trying to understand. Of course, we all have our rights to not let our kids hang out with anyone different than we are. That doesn't make it any less sad.

 

As far as the question of why he is allowing this to interfere with his faith; we have all been teenagers. Teens are some of the most insecure people on this planet. It's the time of their lives when more mature Christians need to embrace them, piercings, blue hair, skinny jeans, and all.

[astrid]

:iagree:

 

So what made Mother Theresa such an inspiration to Christians? The fact that she spent a lifetime ministering to the poor? Or the fact that she looked past outward appearances and saw the value of the human within?

 

A little compassion goes a long, long way.

 

astrid

[mommaduck]

Yet again, I want to ask are we not allowed to feel righteous anger at the situation the OP has given us? Why not? I am angry that Christians reject a child because of his appearance. That is not being intolerant. I am trying to understand. Of course, we all have our rights to not let our kids hang out with anyone different than we are. That doesn't make it any less sad.

 

As far as the question of why he is allowing this to interfere with his faith; we have all been teenagers. Teens are some of the most insecure people on this planet. It's the time of their lives when more mature Christians need to embrace them, piercings, blue hair, skinny jeans, and all.

I don't know a single kid that grew up in church that didn't at some point struggle either with their faith or with their particular branch of faith. Honestly, the kid's a teenager! He's growing, he's learning to think independently, he has a lot to learn. Goodness, don't question whether he really has faith, just understand that he is where we've all been (and please excuse me if I don't believe anyone that says they've never questioned...because if you haven't, then I have to wonder if you are regurgitating what you've been taught vs owning it).

[Meriwether]

I'm a very conservative Christian in appearance and behavior. Unfortunately, sometimes I judge people by their appearance. I acknowledge it is human behavior. Yes, other people do it, too. I've just never thought it was something to be proud of or try to justify.

 

What I expected to hear on this thread was a response to a hurting woman and teenager that sounded something like this...

 

I'm sorry the Christian community has hurt you. We (all of us) need to be better at looking beyond appearances because that is what Jesus would have done. I hope your son finds true friends and that his faith is strengthened.

 

Why don't we just take responsibility and acknowledge this is an area that the church could improve upon?

 

 

If this was directed at me, I'm not explaining myself very well. I'm not proud of human failings and I'm not trying to justify unkindness. I'm just saying that a) it is human nature b) Christians are human and have human failings c) the OP's son, unfortunately, seems to be around Christians with that particular failing.

 

If a parent had posted a thread entitled rant/why would a kid with a tongue ring/long hair come to a CHRISTIAN co-op, I would have been all over that. I feel for the OP and her son. I wouldn't have a problem with him. I'm just saying that given the realities of the situation, he might have to be the one to show others his good qualities. That doesn't make the other people right.

[simka2]

As soon as I finished posting, my sons came into the room and I told them about the thread. As I spoke to them, something occurred to me. There is a parallel in your son's situation with a situation in the early church. Paul gives instructions in 1 Corinthians 8. It's instruction on Christian freedom. Some people were being judged for eating meat that had been sacrificed to false idols. Paul tells the people involves that it is okay to eat the meat. But then he tells them this:

 

"If food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble." ~1 Corinthians 8:13

 

Then later he says, "Though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more." 1 Corinthians 9:19

 

 

Just wanted to address this as it has now come up in a couple threads and both times the context has been wrong. In the other thread I had dh read it and he said the problem is in the way people are applying that verse. It is meant to be applied that if (Paul) a more "mature" christian notices that one of his accepted behaviors causes a "new" believer to stumble in his young faith, than he would stop the behavior. For example: if I as a christian I feel that it is okay to drink, but a new believer comes over and is obviously distressed by my drinking...I won't do it in front of him.

 

We know this is true, because later when Peter is trying to put more rules on the new christians, Paul calls him on the carpet about it(ie circumcsion) The difference is this is a meeting of equals. Paul and Peter were equals.

 

In the OP, they are not equals.

 

 

"

 

Hope that made a lick of sense :001_smile:

[Gwenhwyfar]

At the same time, my very best friends are people with whom I have a lot in common and/or have shared interests.

 

i've seen this repeated a few times in this thread and it leaves me curious ~ how in the world would anyone know if they had 'shared interests' or such with someone else until getting to know them?

 

i'm currently wearing a nose ring. can you tell me what my hobbies are? my favourite tv show? books that i enjoy? foods i like to cook? anything at all - beyond the fact that i like nose rings?

 

of course not.

 

toss in a few other things and maybe - MAYBE - you might get a tiny something. if i mentioned that i was wearing jeans & a t-shirt with a cat on it, you might be safe assuming that i like cats... of course, maybe that t-shirt was a joke gift from a friend who knew i was terribly allergic and hated cats. ;)

 

[i feel the need to say: I LOVE CATS. was just for demonstration purposes.]

[DianeW88]

Yay! From the (gasp!!!!!) LDS Church member! To think tha the LDS (extreme sarcasm) Church could even know the heart of Christ.

 

We try. Even if I am wearing a red bra with no nylons. :lol:

 

Diane W.

married for 22 years

homeschooling 3 kiddos for 16 years

[simka2]

This is the only thing, it's been bugging me all night long. I have not caught up on the morning's replies so if I'm repeating something then I'll just lend my voice...

 

His *choices* are about the way he treats...HIS HAIR. Your *choices* are about the way you treat another person.

 

You can't compare the way I treat MY HAIR with the way I treat YOUR KIDS. You see no difference in effect and consequence?

 

This whole "you're being intolerant of my intolerance" argument I have never been able to wrap my mind around, to pretend that all "choices" are just equal "choices."

 

 

Thank you for saying this! I was about to, but you put it so much better ;)!

[MSNative]

Yet again, I want to ask are we not allowed to feel righteous anger at the situation the OP has given us? Why not? I am angry that Christians reject a child because of his appearance. That is not being intolerant. I am trying to understand. Of course, we all have our rights to not let our kids hang out with anyone different than we are. That doesn't make it any less sad.

 

As far as the question of why he is allowing this to interfere with his faith; we have all been teenagers. Teens are some of the most insecure people on this planet. It's the time of their lives when more mature Christians need to embrace them, piercings, blue hair, skinny jeans, and all.

 

 

I think it's the intolerance toward people with opposing viewpoints that is upsetting some people. I agree that Christians ought to look beyond outward appearances. I'm sad and frustrated that OP's son is feeling shunned at church. However, I think that Christians need to allow others to express diff. perpectives without calling them names or ranting at them. We are called to love all, not just those who agree with us.

 

And Nakia, I agree with you 100% on your second paragraph. Could not have said it better.

[simka2]

I haven't read the whole thread, but just wanted to put this out there. The problem OP is having (from my understanding) is that it is a Christian group that is behaving this way. Not a group at the mall, not a group as PS, not a group at the park. A group claiming to have the heart of Christ.

 

The church is supposed to be a haven for believers. A place where we can come together with people who have experienced the love and forgiveness of God and can rejoice in that - regardless of any worldly concerns. The concern over appearances is a very worldly influence.

 

Your beliefs or choices for parenting just aren't what the problem is here. The problem is that a group of people calling themselves Christians are denying fellowship to someone based solely on their own judgement. If her son went and applied for a job and didn't get it based on his appearance, that would be one thing. An employer has the right to judge based on appearance. A Christian doesn't have that right. Period.

 

Bingo!!!! ;)

[simka2]

Just gotta say...this boy and hula hoop girl are welcome at my church anyday :)

 

But so would someone in a dress or suit and tie!

 

It doesn't take a genius to judge whats on the outside of a person. But it does take real love, to reach down deep and pull out the priceless treasures that are buried in all of us!

[justamouse]

grrr. messed up my post

Edited October 4, 2010 by justamouse

[CAMom]

I think it's the intolerance toward people with opposing viewpoints that is upsetting some people. I agree that Christians ought to look beyond outward appearances. I'm sad and frustrated that OP's son is feeling shunned at church. However, I think that Christians need to allow others to express diff. perpectives without calling them names or ranting at them. We are called to love all, not just those who agree with us.

 

 

 

:iagree: When we rant at, harshly speak to, name call, etc. those with differing positions we lose an opportunity. We lose the opportunity to minister to them and bring them along to something better. If we relate to them gently as the "weaker brother" in a certain circumstance, we gain the ability to show them a better way.

 

How many of us previously held an opinion (even strongly) that we eventually changed and now can't believe we ever thought that way? Did you grow and change your opinion as a result of someone who was hostile to you? My guess is not.

 

I've gone through a huge spiritual growth over the past 6 years where many of my views were challenged and I ended up seeing where I had been wrong and changing them. The effective people were those who were patient with me and gentle in probing and asking questions.

 

If in our righteous indignation we are hurting others, then how are we any better than those judging the OP's son on his outward appearance?:confused:

[simka2]

I think it's the intolerance toward people with opposing viewpoints that is upsetting some people. I agree that Christians ought to look beyond outward appearances. I'm sad and frustrated that OP's son is feeling shunned at church. However, I think that Christians need to allow others to express diff. perpectives without calling them names or ranting at them. We are called to love all, not just those who agree with us.

 

And Nakia, I agree with you 100% on your second paragraph. Could not have said it better.

 

Granted, I think some post may have beena bit passionate, but I don't see much in the way of intolerance. Confusion, questioning, pointing out double standards and disagreeing, but not a lot of intolerance. ;)

[elegantlion]

 

It doesn't take a genius to judge whats on the outside of a person. But it does take real love, to reach down deep and pull out the priceless treasures that are buried in all of us!

 

:iagree: When my son was little he came home from an event and had a X marked on his hand. It reminded me that he is my treasure, he is priceless to me. I'm pretty sure God feels the same way about him and others.

 

If Jesus is my +, then I am the x.

[PineFarmMom]

:)

Edited October 4, 2010 by Texas T

[simka2]

:iagree: When we rant at, harshly speak to, name call, etc. those with differing positions we lose an opportunity. We lose the opportunity to minister to them and bring them along to something better. If we relate to them gently as the "weaker brother" in a certain circumstance, we gain the ability to show them a better way.

 

How many of us previously held an opinion (even strongly) that we eventually changed and now can't believe we ever thought that way? Did you grow and change your opinion as a result of someone who was hostile to you? My guess is not.

 

I've gone through a huge spiritual growth over the past 6 years where many of my views were challenged and I ended up seeing where I had been wrong and changing them. The effective people were those who were patient with me and gentle in probing and asking questions.

 

If in our righteous indignation we are hurting others, then how are we any better than those judging the OP's son on his outward appearance?:confused:

 

I think the big difference...is those on here are being asked to explain their belifes, whereas the original poster is just being judge. He's not even being given the chance...that we know of.

 

Otherwise great post!

[MSNative]

Granted, I think some post may have beena bit passionate, but I don't see much in the way of intolerance. Confusion, questioning, pointing out double standards and disagreeing, but not a lot of intolerance. ;)

 

I can think of several intolerant posts off the top of my head. I started to list them but that seemed to much like tattle telling and trying to slam people. Guess I'd suggest going back and rereading some of the posts. I'm confident you can find the intolerant ones. I'm all about lively debate, but I think we can do it without mocking and name calling. Happily the majority of posters have been careful to be respectful.

[VBoulden]

As soon as I finished posting, my sons came into the room and I told them about the thread. As I spoke to them, something occurred to me. There is a parallel in your son's situation with a situation in the early church. Paul gives instructions in 1 Corinthians 8. It's instruction on Christian freedom. Some people were being judged for eating meat that had been sacrificed to false idols. Paul tells the people involves that it is okay to eat the meat. But then he tells them this:

 

"If food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble." ~1 Corinthians 8:13

 

Then later he says, "Though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more." 1 Corinthians 9:19

 

The principle is this. We have MUCH freedom in Christ. But we should never demand our rights...but rather think of others as more important than ourselves. In this, we love people, "no matter what."

 

I think the portions of Scripture you quoted here fit this situation perfectly.

 

Christians, too often, let "matters of conscience" divide them. They build entire churches and doctrines around personal preferences about stuff that isn't essential, rather than living in unity.

 

One person's conscience won't allow them to wear pants or listen to rock music... so they pass judgment on those who do and teach their children to do the same and they won't worship in the same church with people who do those things... Another person feels free to drink alcohol in moderation and wear red bras...;) they pass judgement on the brother with the "weaker conscience" and then act unlovingly toward them by openly flaunting their freedoms in front of them, etc. And, because of mutual judgment, the church remains divided.

 

The verses you quoted inform this situation, but the Scriptures are more balanced than what you implied. Paul goes on to say, "Do not let anyone speak evil of that which you believe is good." So, while Paul says we are supposed to refrain from doing things (like drinking or wearing certain kinds of clothes) in front of Christians who we know will take offense to those things, we do not have to let their conscience dictate our stances and we do not have to stand by and let them bash Christians who feel free to do those things.

 

Case in point: My husband and I feel free to drink, not in excess, just in moderation. It's more important to be filled with the Holy Spirit. In fact, stuff we buy usually goes bad before we use it all. Just to point out how little we actually consume.

 

But, anyway, that said, while we feel free to do that in private and in certain company, but when his parents come to visit, before they arrive, we get rid of all our alcohol. We do not drink in front of them. We do NOT think this is hypocritical, but rather, a loving consideration of what they do not feel free to do. (We dance, but we didn't dance at our wedding for our family's sake, etc.)

 

Now, they KNOW we drink. They KNOW why we feel free to do so. We've had long conversations about the topic. But, we respect them, so we don't do it in front of them. We think that doing so may grieve the Holy Spirit, harm the unity we have with them, and we think they are more important than our freedom to drink. But, if they launch into a sermon on the evils of Christians who feel free to drink, we feel free to defend our freedom to do so without fearing their condemnation of us... God is our judge and we do everything in good conscience before him.

 

I think that is what Scripture teaches us to do. We each must do everything without sinning against our own consciences and if anything we do causes us to feel doubt (that God wouldn't approve), we shouldn't do it... no matter what people say in defense of it, because everything must be done "in faith."

 

Thanks for bringing up those Scriptures. They are some of the best to inform these "grey areas" that cause so much trouble in the Christian church.

Edited October 4, 2010 by VBoulden

[simka2]

I can think of several intolerant posts off the top of my head. I started to list them but that seemed to much like tattle telling and trying to slam people. Guess I'd suggest going back and rereading some of the posts. I'm confident you can find the intolerant ones. I'm all about lively debate, but I think we can do it without mocking and name calling. Happily the majority of posters have been careful to be respectful.

 

 

I went back thru the first 15 pages and couldn't find one example of posters calling other posters names. Please feel free to pm the post number...I'm kinda curious what you consider name calling :001_smile:

 

Some came close...like I said...passionate! ;)

 

In fact pqr,, put it very well, when he said he was thankful for the civil discourse...or something like that.

[Johanna]

boy, come to our church and community!!! We'd LOVE him, he'd fit right in....seriously. Its a shame what they are doing to him, remind him that its not like that everywhere and God will provide...

[Word Nerd]

If in our righteous indignation we are hurting others, then how are we any better than those judging the OP's son on his outward appearance?:confused:

 

:iagree: One poster even seemed to be presuming to judge the salvation of the people mentioned in the OP's post, which is ironic and hypocritical if I read the post correctly. (Sorry, I don't have time to scroll through 25 pages and find it.)