Rant/hurt/ want christians to learn love instead of judgement

[pqr]

I find this sort of an ironic statement from someone who doesn't have an avatar. Is that because you'd prefer us to know you from your words and not base our opinions on your appearance?

...and an avatar would give you a sense of my appearance?

[GWOB]

That stinks!

 

I'm so :mad: I might blow a gasket.

 

I am so sick to death of cr@p (gasp) like that.

 

What's next? Hand out the 100 steps to looking like a Christian brochure at the door of the church, co-op, whatever.

 

Do we understand just how pharasitical that sounds?

 

We've added a long list of rules to Scripture and then imposed those rules on everyone just so we come out smelling like roses. If that doesn't sound like a Pharisee, then I don't know what would.

 

 

Daisy, I cannot even begin to describe the respect I have for you at this very moment.

 

(Echo the bolded statement.)

[astrid]

It would depend. If I disagreed strongly enough then I would probably lose the friendship.

 

I place parenting above friendship and if I thought the influence was nagative then yes the friendship would be sacrificed, wouldn't you do the same over an issue that you felt strongly about?

 

 

So, I"m guessing THIS PASTOR would be a no-go, then, eh? Too bad, though...he seems like a decent guy. And he's a friend of Ree's.

 

But wait--- if you scroll down a bit HERE, you'll see that his tattoos are BIBLE VERSES!!! Does that earn him extra points?

 

Astrid

[Abigail4476]

I probably should read the whole thread before I respond, but I feel a bit lazy. :D

 

I wouldn't end a friendship with ANY of my best friends simply because they got a piercing...or a tattoo...or implants...or any other marked, physical changes. Cosmetic changes can sometimes reflect emotional changes or turmoil (or not), but they don't change the person. They could be said to reflect changes that have already occurred within the person. We all have the tendency to "sum people up" with a glance--that's just how humans gather information about others. However, we use our intelligence to temper our instincts, so that we don't judge people unfairly by their physical appearance.

 

Furthermore, for a Christian, it is paramount that we acknowledge that only God knows the heart of a man, and work with the knowledge that we can't possibly know what is inside a person by viewing only the outside. To judge otherwise is to place ourselves in God's shoes. Jesus said, "By their fruits [actions?] shall you know them", and also, "By THIS shall all men know you are my disciples; if you have love for one another." IMO, the only way we can accurately gather information about someone's heart from a scriptural perspective is by observing their actions. And even then, we have to be careful, lest we judge unfairly still.

 

As a human being: we need to make snap judgments to a point; it's a survival skill.

 

As Christians: we must sometimes (often?) lay down what is instinctive in favor of what is Christlike.

 

Now, how these principles apply to raising (and protecting) children is a whole new post. :D (But here I go adding to this one anyway. More laziness!) We allow our children a lot of independence in choosing their friends. We are very conservative in lifestyle, politics and religion, but we routinely have children in our home who fall far outside the lines we draw for our family. Generally speaking, as long as their friends are polite, moral, show good character, and don't seem to be leading our children to be making negative choices, we allow friendships to continue. We have yet to end a friendship for any of our children; we instead address behavioral issues in a discussion and ask them what they think about continuing friendships.

 

My dd13 recently made the decision to avoid a particular girlfriend because she used constant bad language. We didn't even broach the subject; she told us about it after the fact. The girl wouldn't stop using certain words that my daughter found offensive, even though she asked her nicely, so she stopped calling/texting/hanging out. Of her own accord. Those are the kinds of decisions I want my children to make. I want them to set their own boundaries and learn how to choose friends wisely on their own.

 

Some of the worst influences can be wolves in sheep's clothing. I say don't judge a book by its cover, and actually get to know the kids your children like. They may like them for a reason, and it may not be because they want to have identical piercings. You might be surprised at who the "good ones" really are. ;)

[Joker]

I haven't read the responses, but it seems to me that you have judged these Christians as being non-loving and the secular kids as being loving when in fact they probably accept him because they find they have more in common with him rather than some ability to practice great acts of charity. And if you do think that is the case, that great acts of charity are required, your son needs to rethink his life choices. A few of my kids have been accepted and some have been rejected. It's life and my kid's problem and mine by association. We can't assume to know why rejection occurs unless we're privy to all of the inner workings of the mind of him who did the rejecting and likewise he can't necessarily understand our child since he doesn't know the workings of his mind. So who is judging?

 

The problem is that it shouldn't require "great acts of charity" to get to know who someone is inside before you judge the outside. I don't think the OP is judging but she is upset that others have judged her son. I am a Christian but I am sickened by all the judgment that is taking place. I was raised in a Christian home and we were taught it is only God's place to judge - our place was to love and be a light. I, unfortunately, do not see a lot of light.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Well I will not argue about your criteria but find it odd that you do not accept that others may also have additional things that they find unacceptable.

 

 

You are correct in that I am INTOLERANT of those who would spew hatred around my kids. You are right: I don't want my kids to think that racism, homophobia, classism is acceptable or something that we joke about. That is miles away from saying, "we don't associate with them because they have a piercing/tattoo/hairstyle/clothing that we don't like". :001_huh:

[simka2]

:iagree:

 

 

 

FWIW, my church sings this song every week. I've never heard the pastor complain about anyone's hair. Of course, his daughter is named after James Taylor...soo....*shrug* ;)

 

 

:lol::lol::lol: OMG!!!!! MY dh looks over and starts singing this...and I didn't have a clue what it was!!!!!! :lol: He was raised in church, I'm the heathen!

[Gwenhwyfar]

...and an avatar would give you a sense of my appearance?

 

do it up. give us a 'face' ~ we don't all have our own photographs; get something that you feel represents you.

 

(avatars are fun!)

[pqr]

I get what you are saying...and you do have that right. I think you and these other moms are going to have to accept the consequences of your surface judgements. Unfortunately, your children will miss out on relationships with some amazing people, your family *may* carry the label of "judgemental christians who drive people away from the church."

 

I really do not say that meanly, although it really comes across that way. But, just as you judge others, so you will be judged...I think that's how the verse goes.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Perfect sense, but we all have our values and just as I respect the rights of the OP to allow her son to behave as he does I respect the right of parents to react to said behavior and keep such examples away from their children.

 

In my case, I do not base this opinion upon a religous teaching and have attempted to make that clear.

[Abigail4476]

That stinks!

 

I'm so :mad: I might blow a gasket.

 

I am so sick to death of cr@p (gasp) like that.

 

What's next? Hand out the 100 steps to looking like a Christian brochure at the door of the church, co-op, whatever.

 

Do we understand just how pharasitical that sounds?

 

We've added a long list of rules to Scripture and then imposed those rules on everyone just so we come out smelling like roses. If that doesn't sound like a Pharisee, then I don't know what would.

 

 

My husband said that he knew of a church in a small NC town near them whose pastor DID post a list on the door. Something along the lines of, "No pants, no jewelry, no makeup", etc. He claims that if you entered without abiding by the rules you would be promptly escorted out.

 

I personally know of a preacher who wouldn't baptize men with long hair. They had to get a "proper haircut" first. Can you imagine Jesus refusing to baptize someone because they had long hair? Or refusing for ANY reason? :glare:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

do it up. give us a 'face' ~ we don't all have our own photographs; get something that you feel represents you.

 

(avatars are fun!)

 

In the spirit of transparency I will confess that my avatar IS my picture. I type rather fast for a red dog with no opposable thumbs. :001_smile:

[astrid]

do it up. give us a 'face' ~ we don't all have our own photographs; get something that you feel represents you.

 

(avatars are fun!)

 

Heck yeah....I have a whole lot less facial hair than my avatar! And my eyes are blue, not brown. No piercings though, except for a whole in each ear but I hate wearing earrings so I'm sure they're closed by now. But wait...wouldn't that make me LESS holey? :D

 

astrid

[Mimm]

In the spirit of transparency I will confess that my avatar IS my picture. I type rather fast for a red dog with no opposable thumbs. :001_smile:

 

Impressive...

;)

[GWOB]

I am not too sure of the Christian connection here, but the way one dresses and comports oneself does say something about that individual.

 

If one chooses to have a piercing then by default one also chooses to make a statement that will be read by others in different ways. I trust that the OP has the son she wishes and loves (and he sounds like a good boy), but he made a decision when he decided to dress in a certain manner, have long hair and punch a hole in his tongue. Why then can a parent, of another child, not make a similar decision that, because of this, he does not want his son to associate with boys who think that such behavior is acceptable? Why are the choices of other parents less valuable than the choices of a parent who allows her son to behave in such a manner? Why are my values less important than someone else's when I say, frankly and without malice, that I would not want my children to associate with a boy who had a tongue ring? Why rant against people like me?

 

We all make our beds and then have to sleep in them. Decisions matter and to complain about what should be obvious consequences to a decision is hardly fair.

 

FWIW I feel very sorry for the boy and wish that he were not hurting as he obviously is, but again choices have consequences.

 

Is this a joke? You cannot possibly be serious. MY Jesus would never say such things, but YMMV, I guess

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Impressive...

;)

 

 

Well, I'm no DaVinci feline, but I get the job done. :D

[simka2]

So, I"m guessing THIS PASTOR would be a no-go, then, eh? Too bad, though...he seems like a decent guy. And he's a friend of Ree's.

 

But wait--- if you scroll down a bit HERE, you'll see that his tattoos are BIBLE VERSES!!! Does that earn him extra points?

 

Astrid

 

 

If you scroll down farther there's a great beer! Ya, I wouldn't want them to leave either!!!! ;)

[pqr]

Is this a joke? You cannot possibly be serious. MY Jesus would never say such things, but YMMV, I guess

 

That is why I have stated, on multiple occassions, that I am not arguing from a Christian perspective and make no Biblical reference.

[astrid]

Is this a joke? You cannot possibly be serious. MY Jesus would never say such things, but YMMV, I guess

 

Neither would mine, but every day I think fewer and fewer know the one I know. Either that or I"m the one whose been voted off the island.

 

astrid

[Daisy]

My husband said that he knew of a church in a small NC town near them whose pastor DID post a list on the door. Something along the lines of, "No pants, no jewelry, no makeup", etc. He claims that if you entered without abiding by the rules you would be promptly escorted out.

 

I personally know of a preacher who wouldn't baptize men with long hair. They had to get a "proper haircut" first. Can you imagine Jesus refusing to baptize someone because they had long hair? Or refusing for ANY reason? :glare:

 

WOW.

 

Pretty heretical actually.

 

Must be a pretty sweet deal for those who could care less about actually having a relationship with Jesus. Just join the country club and abide by the dress club and your eternal salvation is assured.

[astrid]

.....but aren't Christians supposed to live according to Christ's teachings? Are we not supposed to treat others as Jesus would?

 

astrid

[Mrs Mungo]

If you scroll down farther there's a great beer! Ya, I wouldn't want them to leave either!!!! ;)

 

I have alcohol in my avatar, I'm doooooooomed.

 

That is why I have stated, on multiple occassions, that I am not arguing from a Christian perspective and make no Biblical reference.

 

I haven't seen a logical reason to come to the conclusion that long hair or piercing=bad person either. But, we can agree to disagree if you can't think of one.

[QueenCat]

I have known more than one teenager with hair too long, piercings, tattoos, whom were just the most gentle and loving souls. My heart breaks for them as I see them judged.

 

Then take the kid who helped put the addition on my home. He's the "model Christian" and his parents are heavily involved in the church and an outreach ministry. This kid is SO nice and sweet......... and then my oldest comes home to tell me how at school he has no friends because he's so nasty, how he's a pothead, how he's a heavy drinker. But at church they have NO CLUE. BUT, he's clean cut and appealing to the conservative Christian's eyes.

 

So maybe it's IS more important to have friends whom are acceptable outside and not inside?:001_huh:

 

We like people for who they ARE, NOT for what they look like.

 

:lurk5: Well said!!! Two of the WORST behaved teens I know are CLEAN CUT, and FAKE IT at church. They are incredibly MEAN yet the adults at church are far nicer to them than to a couple of the kids who dress in the more rocker, cool clothes style yet are NICE and have a rep for being NICE to everyone!

[Caitilin]

That is why I have stated, on multiple occassions, that I am not arguing from a Christian perspective and make no Biblical reference.

 

But the OP was discussing the treatment that her ds received from those who claimed that they WERE operating from the perspective of Christians; the resultant hoopla has to do with those who ARE Christians saying "wait, wait, wait! This isn't what Christians do!" If you're not arguing for conservative dress only from a Christian perspective, as this is, in fact, the paradigm under discussion, I fail to see what possible reason you have for continuing to restate that it's your right as a parent to keep your children from all those who make different and therefore "wrong" choices. We agree that it's your right. We don't see what possible relevance this has, if you're not claiming to come at it from the Christian perspective.

 

And FWIW, I am with those who dress conservatively themselves, but love interesting clothes on others. :)

[pqr]

 

 

I haven't seen a logical reason to come to the conclusion that long hair or piercing=bad person either. But, we can agree to disagree if you can't think of one.

 

....that is because I never said that. Indeed I said that the OP's son sounded like a good boy.

[Caitilin]

....that is because I never said that. Indeed I said that the OP's son sounded like a good boy.

But you also said that the fact that he sounds like a good boy doesn't matter--his appearance is more important than his goodness.:001_huh:

[pqr]

But you also said that the fact that he sounds like a good boy doesn't matter--his appearance is more important than his goodness.:001_huh:

 

 

Where did I say that it was "more" important? I simply said that it was an unwanted inflluence?

[Abigail4476]

I am not too sure of the Christian connection here, but the way one dresses and comports oneself does say something about that individual.

 

It probably does say something, but more often than not you have to actually get to know the person to find out what they're expressing. It's broad brushing to assume every woman who bleaches her hair blonde and paints on a mole is trying to express Marilyn Monroe. :D

 

If one chooses to have a piercing then by default one also chooses to make a statement that will be read by others in different ways. I trust that the OP has the son she wishes and loves (and he sounds like a good boy), but he made a decision when he decided to dress in a certain manner, have long hair and punch a hole in his tongue.

 

I'm going to agree with you to this point :D and the rest of my post will be less amiable. I agree that as a parent, we have a responsibility to educate our children about society and make sure they understand that choices do come with consequences. Any choice we make will be met with judgment by someone along the way, and that person will then make a decision about our value based on that judgment. And they will treat us accordingly. We can't prevent that from happening; we can only make careful choices and make sure the ones we make are worth the risk.

 

Why then can a parent, of another child, not make a similar decision that, because of this, he does not want his son to associate with boys who think that such behavior is acceptable? Why are the choices of other parents less valuable than the choices of a parent who allows her son to behave in such a manner? Why are my values less important than someone else's when I say, frankly and without malice, that I would not want my children to associate with a boy who had a tongue ring? Why rant against people like me?

 

Parents can also make choices, but from a Christian standpoint we must realize that our choices reflect our beliefs. So, if we choose not to befriend someone because of outward appearance, we are teaching our children the opposite of Christian principles. If you're choosing not to associate with a person who has a piercing for a reason other than just "how it looks", then perhaps you should express that instead. It might make more sense as a "value."

 

We all make our beds and then have to sleep in them. Decisions matter and to complain about what should be obvious consequences to a decision is hardly fair.

 

True, we do, but it's not my place to make certain that other people sleep in their beds, messily made or otherwise. Grace doesn't go around pushing people back in between the sheets.

 

FWIW I feel very sorry for the boy and wish that he were not hurting as he obviously is, but again choices have consequences.

 

And we're back to agreeing on something; thank God for small favors! :tongue_smilie: Choices have consequences. I just think we should be careful about being the ones who dole out those consequences, especially when we have the option to choose kindness instead. I don't want to be the Christian who treats someone rudely because they look different from me; I would love to be the exception to that expectation; wouldn't you? Wouldn't you like to teach your children that we should be kind to others, even when they look drastically different from us? Don't you think that is a Christlike principle?

[QueenCat]

And you are not an old lady. I got my first tattoo at 30, and this past spring when I got my nose pierced, my then 9 year old was horrified because, as she said, I am way to old and uncool for that. So basically, I am just doing all this to embarrass my children. :lol::lol::lol:

 

Life is all about embarrassing our children! :lol:

[Daisy]

 

And we're back to agreeing on something; thank God for small favors! :tongue_smilie: Choices have consequences. I just think we should be careful about being the ones who dole out those consequences, especially when we have the option to choose kindness instead. I don't want to be the Christian who treats someone rudely because they look different from me; I would love to be the exception to that expectation; wouldn't you? Wouldn't you like to teach your children that we should be kind to others, even when they look drastically different from us? Don't you think that is a Christlike principle?

 

Yes! I love this.

[Mrs Mungo]

....that is because I never said that. Indeed I said that the OP's son sounded like a good boy.

 

Understand, I'm just trying to look at this with a logical POV.

 

If it isn't that such things=bad person, then what is your reasoning?

 

The only reason I've seen is that you don't want your children emulating such behavior. Will your sons be allowed to hang out with girls or are you worried they will start wearing dresses and makeup?

 

I believe I have instilled good morals and values in my kids. My eldest has dyed her hair green in the past. If that lost her some friends, we didn't know about it and we live in an extremely conservative community.

 

My kids know that there are choices we make based on our family's values that may be different than the Jones family or the Smith family. We don't watch horror movies, for example. We don't say "oh no, the Smith family watches horror movies, you can't hang out with them. We say "I realize the Smith family watches horror movies, we're still not doing that, here's why."

 

With the tongue ring. Let's say dd says "Mom! Megan Jones got a tongue ring, it's so cool, can I get one?" I would explain why I think a tongue ring is a bad idea, especially when I'm paying for her dental care. I would offer acceptable alternatives if she wanted to experiment with her appearance-extra earring holes, a purple streak in her hair, more funky eyeliner, etc.

 

I would hope that by the time your children are teens, you will be able to have similar conversations with them.

Edited October 4, 2010 by Mrs Mungo

[QueenCat]

MAN do I hate it when I don't explain myself clearly.

 

My ds was asked to be the youth role model, THEN went into PS and was picked on for short hair and Izods, THEN grew out his hair and changed his dress, and was shunned by the pastor and mostly everyone else in the church because his appearance changed. They never appreciated that his HEART didn't.

 

Very sad, I would say that your pastor and his wife probably do not have Jesus in their hearts.

[Mimm]

Where did I say that it was "more" important? I simply said that it was an unwanted inflluence?

 

You have made it clear that the tongue ring is enough to disqualify a person from friendship with you, so clearly the tongue ring is more important than any other thing about a person. Their personality, morals, character, thoughts and ideas are less than the tongue ring because apparently none of these can override the tongue ring.

[pqr]

I am afraid I must end this one as I need to head off to work. Hope to continue later.

 

I am glad that, for the most part, it has remained cordial even if I doubt we shall ever agree.

[Gwenhwyfar]

I am afraid I must end this one as I need to head off to work. Hope to continue later.

 

I am glad that, for the most part, it has remained cordial even if I doubt we shall ever agree.

 

you still need an avatar. :w00t:

 

(come back and surprise us ~ double dog dare ya.)

 

[it's all in good fun]

[Sophia]

I love Jesus and am a born again Christian and also home school but honestly am so tired of judgmental, isolationist, legalistic "Christian" that continue to hurt my son. I am so hurt for him and so tired of all of them. He is totally turning his back on Christianity because of these families.

 

:rant:

 

:grouphug:

I'm sorry to hear your son is going through such a difficult time.

I'm sorrier still that he's allowed the behavior of others to influence how he feels about what his Savior has done for him.

The fact is that people are going to disappoint your ds for the rest of his life.

His relationship with the Lord should be based on what he knows to be true about Christ and his own need for a Savior and not how others are behaving. As painful as this time may be, it's also a wonderful opportunity for him to dive into the scriptures, letting God speak to his heart and strengthening his relationship with the One he can always count on.

 

Dh and I are very conservative Christians. I suppose some would call us fundamentalist...I prefer the term biblical, but whatever. Ds(17) is also a professing Christian, but is more liberal in preferences (just as conservative in doctrine though.)

 

He has a genuine love for people and the gift of grace; always giving others the benefit of the doubt. But, like many other people on this thread, he does have trouble extending grace to people he has determined to be judgemental. This really does grieve my mother's heart for him and is an area in which I would like him to grow.

Imnsho, shunning or mocking from the other side does nothing to enhance his (or anyone's) walk with the Lord.

 

My encouragement to ds and to your ds as well, is to look upon those they see as self-righteous, legalistic, etc., as fellow pilgrims who are also stumbling (as we all do!) and wait for God to change their hearts. And if he doesn't, then trust He will work all things out for the good. For your ds that may mean he'll bring the right friends along for him, for mine it may mean something else.

I just really believe that at this age especially, trials like this can refine our young adults and really turn them into spiritual powerhouses!

It's late, sorry if I rambled. Praying for you and your son,

[Abigail4476]

:grouphug:

I'm sorry to hear your son is going through such a difficult time.

I'm sorrier still that he's allowed the behavior of others to influence how he feels about what his Savior has done for him.

The fact is that people are going to disappoint your ds for the rest of his life.

His relationship with the Lord should be based on what he knows to be true about Christ and his own need for a Savior and not how others are behaving. As painful as this time may be, it's also a wonderful opportunity for him to dive into the scriptures, letting God speak to his heart and strengthening his relationship with the One he can always count on.

 

Dh and I are very conservative Christians. I suppose some would call us fundamentalist...I prefer the term biblical, but whatever. Ds(17) is also a professing Christian, but is more liberal in preferences (just as conservative in doctrine though.)

 

He has a genuine love for people and the gift of grace; always giving others the benefit of the doubt. But, like many other people on this thread, he does have trouble extending grace to people he has determined to be judgemental. This really does grieve my mother's heart for him and is an area in which I would like him to grow.

Imnsho, shunning or mocking from the other side does nothing to enhance his (or anyone's) walk with the Lord.

 

My encouragement to ds and to your ds as well, is to look upon those they see as self-righteous, legalistic, etc., as fellow pilgrims who are also stumbling (as we all do!) and wait for God to change their hearts. And if he doesn't, then trust He will work all things out for the good. For your ds that may mean he'll bring the right friends along for him, for mine it may mean something else.

I just really believe that at this age especially, trials like this can refine our young adults and really turn them into spiritual powerhouses!

It's late, sorry if I rambled. Praying for you and your son,

 

I LOVE this post! Great advice, especially in the first paragraph. :hurray:

[DaffodilDreams]

What in the WORLD do long hair or skinny jeans have to do with being a Christian (or not)? I have known children of pastors and chaplains who were perfectly right with God who had colorful hair, multiple piercings and so forth. So what?!

 

Exactly! One of our associate pastors has a beautiful diamond stud nose ring. I love that our church doesn't pass judgment on anyone (leaves that job where it belongs!). Unfortunately, where I live, there aren't many places of worship or homeschool groups like that, though. Thankfully, there are a few; maybe one day there will be more.

[CAMom]

:grouphug:

I'm sorry to hear your son is going through such a difficult time.

I'm sorrier still that he's allowed the behavior of others to influence how he feels about what his Savior has done for him.

The fact is that people are going to disappoint your ds for the rest of his life.

His relationship with the Lord should be based on what he knows to be true about Christ and his own need for a Savior and not how others are behaving. As painful as this time may be, it's also a wonderful opportunity for him to dive into the scriptures, letting God speak to his heart and strengthening his relationship with the One he can always count on.

 

Dh and I are very conservative Christians. I suppose some would call us fundamentalist...I prefer the term biblical, but whatever. Ds(17) is also a professing Christian, but is more liberal in preferences (just as conservative in doctrine though.)

 

He has a genuine love for people and the gift of grace; always giving others the benefit of the doubt. But, like many other people on this thread, he does have trouble extending grace to people he has determined to be judgemental. This really does grieve my mother's heart for him and is an area in which I would like him to grow.

Imnsho, shunning or mocking from the other side does nothing to enhance his (or anyone's) walk with the Lord.

 

My encouragement to ds and to your ds as well, is to look upon those they see as self-righteous, legalistic, etc., as fellow pilgrims who are also stumbling (as we all do!) and wait for God to change their hearts. And if he doesn't, then trust He will work all things out for the good. For your ds that may mean he'll bring the right friends along for him, for mine it may mean something else.

I just really believe that at this age especially, trials like this can refine our young adults and really turn them into spiritual powerhouses!

It's late, sorry if I rambled. Praying for you and your son,

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

I read the whole thread and my heart aches for the OP's son.

 

But, my heart aches over the judgement passed by others as well. Instead of extending grace and perhaps seeing others as "the weaker brother" there is a mob mentality that jumps all over them.

 

To me, it's just sad all the way around. When a believer tries to back out of a conversation and is answered with a "good" or a "thank you" where is the grace in that? Why do we treat each other that way? IMO, it's no better than the judgement the OPs son is facing.:(

[DaffodilDreams]

These threads always make me remember my dad. When I was about 16 he came in from work. My older brother had some friends who had stopped by but they didn't tell us there was someone waiting in the truck outside. My dad comes in and asks who's outside and is told, "Oh, that's "J" but he didn't know if you would let him in since he's black." :001_huh: (This is small town Texas and obviously "J" had met some very mean people.) My dad gets red-faced and goes outside. He comes back in about 15 minutes later with "J" and tells us all that anyone regardless of what color they are, how they dress, what their hair looks like or how many earrings they had in their ears - all are welcome in our house. He ranted for a while and then left. More of my brothers friends started showing up over the next few weeks because they knew my dad wasn't going to hassle them about their earrings.:tongue_smilie: My dad let us know that it just didn't matter what a person looked like - that we should pay more attention to who they are inside. I wish more people paid attention to the inside.

 

Your dad is my new hero!!!! This is what I'm trying to teach my dd. I don't want her to grow up to fear or judge people for their race, s~xual identity, socio-economic status, etc. I want her to value the differences in people and to see how the world is a brighter and more interesting place because we are unique. I want her to know that she is okay no matter what others might think of her or say about her and to feel that those who don't value her for who she is rather than what she looks like, what she wears, etc. are the ones who lose out. I want her to champion those afraid to speak out for themselves. I don't want her to hate others because they are not like her. I've seen too many parents - whether unknowingly or not - impart hatred for others to their children. My own parents succeeded in this with my brothers but thank God my grandparents saved me from that path. Now my one brother is passing this along to his children. It's a horrid cycle and parents have the power to break it.

[Meriwether]

First, :grouphug: to the OP.

 

On this issue I have some mixed thoughts. Yes, Christians should not judge based on outward appearance. I am very sorry for the hurt the OP's son is experiencing. It seems to me, though, that on this board, Christians are often judged very harshly and those judgements are applauded. For that reason I try to flip it around to see what would happen in a reverse situation.

 

Appearance and the way a person presents themselves do matter. Doesn't the saying go "you never have a second chance to make a first impression"? Take me for instance. I am overweight with ill fitting clothes and my hair is pulled back in a ponytail, but otherwise not fixed. I do not wear makeup. I do not make a favorable first impression and I have been judged for that. I don't blame anyone but myself. I could explain that I've never (since I stopped growing) gained weight except while pregnant and I am too cheap to buy clothes in every size I'm going through, but that doesn't change the fact that I don't appear to advantage. In another 3 months I'll have lost most of the baby fat and will be wearing my real clothes. From past experience, I will be treated differently.

 

For those of you who are so disgusted with the judgemental Christians, how do you think a skirt wearing, long haired Christian girl would be viewed by ________________? I'll let you fill in the blank. In fact, if you saw a group of conservative ladies wearing long dresses, what would you first think? (In the interest of full disclosure, my family dresses up for church. I wore pants to church today for the first time in about 4 years. My girls wear dresses to church. I believe in wearing my nicest clothes to church as a way of worshiping God, but I rarely wear dresses on other occasions. I just dislike the hate the fundamentalists often get.)

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that being judgemental is a human condition with some people being more so and others less. My high school boyfriend grew his hair out after we started dating , and I thought it was very ugly (the style, it was only long on top, it didn't even reach his neck). I never said anything to him about it, and I didn't break up with him over it. However, I wouldn't have started dating him if he had grown his hair out first because I did not find it attractive. I make judgements when I see certain situations, and you do to. Some Christians make unkind judgements (some are so judgemental I believe it to be their besetting sin), but the vast majority that I know are very kind and loving. And they also happen to be conservative - even fundamentalist.

Edited October 4, 2010 by Meriwether

[Mrs Mungo]

Appearance and the way a person presents themselves do matter. Doesn't the saying go "you never have a second chance to make a first impression"? Take me for instance. I am overweight with ill fitting clothes and my hair is pulled back in a ponytail, but otherwise not fixed. I do not wear makeup. I do not make a favorable first impression and I have been judged for that. I don't blame anyone but myself. I could explain that I've never (since I stopped growing) gained weight except while pregnant and I am too cheap to buy clothes in every size I'm going through, but that doesn't change the fact that I don't appear to advantage. In another 3 months I'll have lost most of the baby fat and will be wearing my real clothes. From past experience, I will be treated differently.

 

Nobody is denying this fact. I had a friend in high school who was in a band. He had long hair, he had an earring, etc. He's now the manager of a bank. He has short hair, no earring, he wears suits, not ripped jeans. That's a life choice that he's making as adult. He's still the same person.

 

For those of you who are so disgusted with the judgemental Christians, how do you think a skirt wearing, long haired Christian girl would be viewed by ________________? I'll let you fill in the blank. In fact, if you saw a group of conservative ladies wearing long dresses, what would you first think? (In the interest of full disclosure, my family dresses up for church. I wore pants to church today for the first time in about 4 years. My girls wear dresses to church. I believe in wearing my nicest clothes to church as a way of worshiping God, but I rarely wear dresses on other occasions. I just dislike the hate the fundamentalists often get.)

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that being judgemental is a human condition with some people being more so and others less. My high school boyfriend grew his hair out after we started dating , and I thought it was very ugly (the style, it was only long on top, it didn't even reach his neck). I never said anything to him about it, and I didn't break up with him over it. However, I wouldn't have started dating him if he had grown his hair out first, because I did not find it attractive. I make judgements when I see certain situations, and you do to. Some Christians make unkind judgements (some are so judgemental I believe it to be their besetting sin), but the vast majority that I know are very kind and loving. And they also happen to be conservative - even fundamentalist.

 

I wouldn't think twice about it. I've been friends with liberals and fundamentalists. We had a bowling event with our Christian teen homeschool group the other night. There were boys with long hair, boys with short hair. There were girls with long and short hair. There were girls with makeup and girls with none. There were girls in shorts, girls in skirts. They all manage to get along. They are homeschooled, therefore their families are more influential than their peers. These families value interaction with other teens, even if the families have slightly different opinions on dress. The kids and families get along well because our values are similar when it comes to issues of *character*.

[Meriwether]

 

Sorry. When I asked "what would you think" I didn't really mean you had to tell me. I didn't even mean to suggest that people would have negative feelings. I just wanted people to think about what assumptions they would have/conclusions they would draw. When my sister and I attended the homeschool conference this summer, we were walking through several large buildings connected with a skywalk - each of us slinging a baby. We weren't sure where we were going and it was a good 20 minute walk from our hotel room. We saw lots of business attire as we were walking. This made us a little nervous because we didn't know if we were going the right way. Then two women came from a connecting hallway and headed the same direction we were going. One of them was slinging a baby and both of them were dressed casually. As we turned the next corner, we saw several husbands/wives or groups of ladies eating packed lunches. We saw several ladies wearing long skirts and then several more with nursing babies. Before we saw the actual convention, we knew we were headed in the right direction. Although there was a variety of people at the convention, we, as a homeschool group, had distinctive dress and behaviors.

 

Groups tend to be that way. The business people, the homeschoolers, the fundamentalists, the jocks, the goths, the geeks, the cowboys, the gangmembers. If you dress in a way that aligns yourself with a particular group, you shouldn't be surprised if people assume you have certain behaviors to go along with the look. I'm not saying it is right; I'm saying it is a common reaction - not limited to Christians. I don't say any of this to diminish the OP's pain. I said in my first post that I have mixed thoughts about this. I don't think the OP's son should have to change to be accepted, but he may have to make extra effort for people to see his good qualities. Again, I'm not saying that is right.

[Mrs Mungo]

Groups tend to be that way. The business people, the homeschoolers, the fundamentalists, the jocks, the goths, the geeks, the cowboys, the gangmembers. If you dress in a way that aligns yourself with a particular group, you shouldn't be surprised if people assume you have certain behaviors to go along with the look. I'm not saying it is right; I'm saying it is a common reaction - not limited to Christians. I don't say any of this to diminish the OP's pain. I said in my first post that I have mixed thoughts about this. I don't think the OP's son should have to change to be accepted, but he may have to make extra effort for people to see his good qualities. Again, I'm not saying that is right.

 

Sure, casually dressed women with babies in a convention center usually stocked with business people would signal "homeschooler convention this way." BUT, you also have variables within that group. There are fundamentalist homeschoolers, hippie homeschoolers and plenty of us in the middle. I would not automatically assume that the moms in denim jumpers are legalistic Christians and I would not automatically assume that the moms with dreads are UUs (I've known too many UUs in denim jumpers and dreadlocked Christians). That's because my life experience tells me that you cannot really tell much about people's beliefs and/or character based upon the way they are dressed. I've known horrible people who present themselves very well.

 

Do *some people* make assumptions based upon how people are dressed? Sure they do. But, I think it's a mistake on several levels. I do not think it's a matter of human nature, I think it's a matter of cultural conditioning. I think that conditioning breaks down when you associate with lots of different types of people.

Edited October 4, 2010 by Mrs Mungo

[sagira]

Sure, casually dressed women with babies in a convention center usually stocked with business people would signal "homeschooler convention this way." BUT, you also have variables within that group. There are fundamentalist homeschoolers, hippie homeschoolers and plenty of us in the middle. I would not automatically assume that the moms in denim jumpers are legalistic Christians and I would not automatically assume that the moms with dreads are UUs (I've known too many UUs in denim jumpers and dreadlocked Christians). That's because my life experience tells me that you cannot really tell much about people's beliefs and/or character based upon the way they are dressed. I've known horrible people who present themselves very well.

 

Do *some people* make assumptions based upon how people are dressed? Sure they do. But, I think it's a mistake on several levels. I do not think it's a matter of human nature, I think it's a matter of cultural conditioning. I think that conditioning breaks down when you associate with lots of different types of people.

 

Great post; especially the last paragraph. This is exactly why I would want my children to meet people of all different dress styles, piercings, etc. It's the school of life, to learn that people could be impeccably manicured and be mean, that sloppy people can be nice and smart, that hippie-looking dress could be conservative in values. Vive la differance!

[asta]

1. pqr - why are you trolling this thread?

 

2. OP - I feel for your son; I have seen many kids/adults drift away from religion and other healthy support systems due to the judgment they have received from others.

 

3. @ Abigail re: Wolves in Sheep's clothing. Isn't that the truth. The only problems my son has had in the "friend" arena has been this type of person. And, being the type of person he is (trusting, taking people at their word), I have had to unfortunately step in to point out the most serious problems (eg: stealing, drugs, etc.).

 

 

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[Slartibartfast]

That is why I have stated, on multiple occassions, that I am not arguing from a Christian perspective and make no Biblical reference.

 

That would be difficult as in every picture I have seen of Christ he has long hair, is wearing a skirt and what appear to be birkenstocks. ;)

[LittleHouseHomeschool]

I haven't read this entire thread...not enough time. But I wanted to ask a question. The OP said that her son was turning away from his faith because of judgemental Christians.

 

Why is that so? His faith has nothing to do with other people. At least, it shouldn't have anything to do with anyone but him and the Lord. Does he have an ongoing relationship with Jesus?

 

Sadly, I have felt challenged by judgmental people who call themselves Christians, for other reasons. I've come to realize that not all people who label themselves as such truly are in relationship. Perhaps they are immature Christians. Perhaps they are just sinning. God has called me to love people, "No matter what." (Just as He does) Yes, it hurts. Yes, people need to be told the truth. Faith, hope and love...but the greatest of these is love. God tells us that we must count the cost of following Him. And it does cost.

 

If your family truly loves the Lord, perhaps other people need to see your dedication and commitment to Him. "I will remain faithful, Jesus...no matter what." I have a feeling, that a person could change the world with love like that.

[Trish]

i guess I can see both sides to this equation. I don't think people should have to be all like in order to be accepted. But sometimes we as parents tend to make quick jugments based on what we see or hear.

 

Here is one of my areas of ignorance: "heavy metal music." Based on what I have SEEN, and to a small degree, heard, i would "assume" (wrongly?) that the music has bad lyrics. In fact even now I'm thinking I have never heard of the concept of heavy metal and "socially acceptable lyrics."

 

So from your post I learned something new. Is there even Christian metal, maybe? I know there is Christian rock, but to me "metal" has always signaled that whole anti-social "we don't want our teens to go there" category.

 

If you can educate those of us parents who think "metal = bad" maybe that would be a step in the right direction!

[LittleHouseHomeschool]

As soon as I finished posting, my sons came into the room and I told them about the thread. As I spoke to them, something occurred to me. There is a parallel in your son's situation with a situation in the early church. Paul gives instructions in 1 Corinthians 8. It's instruction on Christian freedom. Some people were being judged for eating meat that had been sacrificed to false idols. Paul tells the people involves that it is okay to eat the meat. But then he tells them this:

 

"If food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble." ~1 Corinthians 8:13

 

Then later he says, "Though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more." 1 Corinthians 9:19

 

The principle is this. We have MUCH freedom in Christ. But we should never demand our rights...but rather think of others as more important than ourselves. In this, we love people, "no matter what."

[TravelingChris]

My daughters do not prefer to be friends with kids like the OP son. Why? Because they have nothing in common in interests. It has nothing to do with shunning or thinking he isn't a Christian. THat doesn't mean they want to be friends with every boy who has short hair and no piercings either. But they don't find certain looks becoming and they don't like heavy metal music, regardless of lyrics. I don't think my kids are so strange. There are lots of kids and only maybe ten or so they become friendly with. That doesn't mean they are rude to others. But it works out that they tend to be friendly with others who are dressed and groomed sort of similarly. It isn't the deciding factor since one of my older dd's friends last year had horrible taste in clothing and while dd always complained (to me, not to her)about that, she still was friends with the girl.

 

I guess I don't think we usually form friendships based solely on a shared Christian view. There are so many Christians in the US and most of us limit our friendships to a much smaller group. FOr my daughters, this includes the subset of kids who have goals they can value and also aren't into rebellious behavior. My kids are much more judgemental than I am and I believe this behavior is a result of their being young. So the girls don't want to be friends normally with kids they call Emo but they aren't calling them names or shunning them. They simply aren't going to be their friends. I am sure they would be like this with kids with tattoos or piercings. It isn't their thing. Just like many kids would find their music tastes or movie tastes or whatever to be to their liking.

 

I haven't had to stop any friendships ever. Can't say I won't have to since I still have an almost 14 yo who might decide to be rebellious and then I would have to evaluate the friendship. I have no set and fast rules about who they can't have as friends. But if some friend was a disruptive influence, I would be limiting contact. I am not saying the OP's son is a disruptive influence. I just think that the issue may not be who is a Christian but other things.

 

I would not attend a church that had a dress code or a list of do nots on the door as some PP attested to. That is totally contrary to the Christian message.