Rant. I don't want to live nextdoor to my in-laws anymore.

[Doodlebug]

Your mil has pancreatic cancer?

That changes a lot in terms of the support I would expect from my dh. And that would change the expectations I have of myself/ homeschooling.

Too, family farming is a unique family culture dynamic and dils have a tough row to hoe! The right boundaries are important, and I think they look more personal - getting serious about carving out time for you to be you with your family, friends, interests. This cultivates a sense of freedom instead of feeling trapped. But it does require personal agency, consideration, and planning.

[SHP]

This was hard for me. I suggest boundaries for you. You cannot control your husband and inlaws. I like what someone else said about school hours being a set time each day. Beyond that, I would be unavailable most of the week. I would agree to a once a week extended family meal that is during a set time, say noon-4 on a Sunday. That gives plenty of time to help with clean up. While cleaning isn't fun it is a good way to create an end. That would be the extent of what I would commit to, unless I was consulted aabout and agreed to plans by/with SIL in advance. I might open up one or two evenings a months for that, at most. I would justify it using SIL own words about why she is there. "Oh, well I know SIL really wants to X and since we see you all the time we want to make sure she has the opportunity!"

I would create family activities for your family to be together and busy. Do you have a bowling/arcade/laser tag entertainment place? A skating rink? Driving range? Hiking? Escape rooms. Anything really. Precovid we did a random adventure of the week. We all wrote out things we wanted to do that were permanent attractions and put them in a jar and drew one for the weekly family adventure. I also kept a list of temporary exhibits as well that we wanted to visited and tried to hit one a month. 

Not everything has to be out of the house, game day, making a Rube Goldberg machine (no eggs, trust me), or whatever. Just be unavailable. 

Re: MN

Since only one vehicle is taken to MN, I would book a trip in the opposite direction and the morning of departure pack my stuff and go. I would probably tell them in advance. Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on my mood. 

[Katy]

Your SIL brought a kid with covid to visit her mother who is in treatment for pancreatic cancer?

Forget avoiding a fight, I’d be threatening divorce at this point. Make some boundaries now. Stick to them. Consider DH’s tantrums similar to a toddler’s and don’t give in. Ever. Because doing so just tells him you’re a pushover. 

[prairiewindmomma]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

Your SIL brought a kid with covid to visit her mother who is in treatment for pancreatic cancer?

Forget avoiding a fight, I’d be threatening divorce at this point. Make some boundaries now. Stick to them. Consider DH’s tantrums similar to a toddler’s and don’t give in. Ever. Because doing so just tells him you’re a pushover. 

Tells you what you need to know about boundaries and consideration of others in the family of origin, doesn’t it….

[kirstenhill]

On 11/7/2023 at 10:49 AM, Ting Tang said:

I do wonder how much this will all last.  Of course, I want my MIL to pull through, but my husband has already said I will regret what I've had to say about the Minnesota trip when she passes away.   I've not said much about this upcoming Christmas trip for that reason.  But I start to feel sad when I realize I am almost 43, and my younger days are limited to--and I'm not even very young.  When we were dating and even married early on, I guess I never thought that it would be an annual thing. I never even thought to ask, and I am not sure I was ever told. 

 

About the bolded specifically, I think HE would regret missing any time he doesn't spend with his family, but it is projecting his feelings on your to say that you will feel that way too.  I think it's totally fair to push back on this and say that as the years go by, you will regret not making more memories with just your immediate nuclear family, or that as you get older you will regret places that you would like to visit as a family but haven't been able to visit because of the time and money spent on the annual MN trip. 

I am very conscious at my kids' ages of the number of vacations we will take together, and the number of years we will have for our special immediate family traditions.  My DD is 19/Sophomore in college, and I know that as soon as she graduates and gets a job, she will be unlikely to be home at every holiday, join us for vacations, etc.   Even when your kids are young, you are still looking at a limited number of years where your whole family is at home living under one roof. 

We are going to spend the "day of" both Thanksgiving and Christmas with DH's family this year, and I'm not particularly happy about that, but willing as we haven't done it very many years in our marriage, and my DH is honestly worried about the number of years that his mom has to enjoy holidays with family (due to health concerns).  But I will not hesitate at all to say (if he suggests it again next year), that our immediate family is also a big priority, and if we prioritize MIL on the day of the holiday (and let me note that she is not the one pushing for the day-of gathering - there are other family dynamics at work here too) this year, then next year we should definitely prioritize immediate family. 

You've been prioritizing extended family for years, and I definitely think you need to speak up for yourself, and what you really want to have as  memories to look back on when your kids are grown.

[DawnM]

I am sorry.  That sounds smothering.   It sounds like you will need to set some new boundaries and that won't be a pleasant thing to do after so many years of not having them.

[Quarter Note]

There’s something basic that seems to be missing in so many in-law relationships:

ALL healthy adult to adult relationships should be based on respect, whether it’s husband-wife, MIL-DIL, two sisters-in-law, friend-friend, etc.  Just because a wedding has taken place does not mean in any way that the foundational work of grounding a relationship in respect can be bypassed.  

Or, to put it another way, a wedding is not a proof of purchase of a woman’s time, schedule, or holiday celebrations.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Quarter Note
typo

[Ting Tang]

Thank you all for your comments and input.  It was a rough week, being sick with colds.

I told my husband today I didn't want to go on the winter trip.  He asked if I felt that way, even if his mother was feeling well enough to go.  Then he asked how the kids would feel about it.  Granted this was in a text message, but we don't really see each other without the kids around.

So, I just didn't answer.  The fact is, I am going to be the "bad guy" for not wanting to spend more time with his family away, with his mother being sick.  

I didn't plan this trip.  I am just always expected to go along with things.  Maybe that does make me evil and cruel.  But I honestly just do not want to do it.  Being cooped up in a hotel for two days with a kiddie water park doesn't sound fun to me. Maybe it is some people's dream winter getaway, but I feel like it will be the same dynamic. Me with them, waiting to go home.

Oh well.  

[Laura Corin]

6 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Thank you all for your comments and input.  It was a rough week, being sick with colds.

I told my husband today I didn't want to go on the winter trip.  He asked if I felt that way, even if his mother was feeling well enough to go.  Then he asked how the kids would feel about it.  Granted this was in a text message, but we don't really see each other without the kids around.

So, I just didn't answer.  The fact is, I am going to be the "bad guy" for not wanting to spend more time with his family away, with his mother being sick.  

I didn't plan this trip.  I am just always expected to go along with things.  Maybe that does make me evil and cruel.  But I honestly just do not want to do it.  Being cooped up in a hotel for two days with a kiddie water park doesn't sound fun to me. Maybe it is some people's dream winter getaway, but I feel like it will be the same dynamic. Me with them, waiting to go home.

Oh well.  

He can take the kids,  if he likes.

[Faith-manor]

37 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Thank you all for your comments and input.  It was a rough week, being sick with colds.

I told my husband today I didn't want to go on the winter trip.  He asked if I felt that way, even if his mother was feeling well enough to go.  Then he asked how the kids would feel about it.  Granted this was in a text message, but we don't really see each other without the kids around.

So, I just didn't answer.  The fact is, I am going to be the "bad guy" for not wanting to spend more time with his family away, with his mother being sick.  

I didn't plan this trip.  I am just always expected to go along with things.  Maybe that does make me evil and cruel.  But I honestly just do not want to do it.  Being cooped up in a hotel for two days with a kiddie water park doesn't sound fun to me. Maybe it is some people's dream winter getaway, but I feel like it will be the same dynamic. Me with them, waiting to go home.

Oh well.  

You did just fine. He needs to not be condescending and show you some respect. You don't need to answer if answering will not improve his attitude.

I really hope he leaves the kids home with you. It could be a nice time to make some memories with them, do things they like, relax and have some down time to plan the new schedule after they return so everyone can be informed of when you are and are not available.

[Katy]

I had fun taking my kids to an indoor waterpark last Spring Break, but I would not in any way call it a vacation. The kids were overstimulated and had trouble regulating anything. And I rarely see my in-laws outside of holidays. You’ve been more than selfless with your time. Stay home & have him take the kids. 

[Innisfree]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

I told my husband today I didn't want to go on the winter trip.  He asked if I felt that way, even if his mother was feeling well enough to go.  Then he asked how the kids would feel about it.

It sounds to me like he was asking questions, trying to gauge how you and the kids feel. That doesn’t sound negative. I would respond to questions with answers: “Yes, even if your mom is feeling better, I don’t want to go, because I feel stuck there without anything to do. Let’s ask the kids how they feel. Maybe they would like to go with you while I stay home.”

Are you perceiving his questions as being loaded or critical? Maybe they are, but maybe they’re just questions.

This is the point where you can change the pattern by articulating what you want to have happen. You don’t have to be critical of his family’s plans, but you can enunciate your preferences. You don’t have to back down.

[marbel]

20 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

It sounds to me like he was asking questions, trying to gauge how you and the kids feel. That doesn’t sound negative. I would respond to questions with answers: “Yes, even if your mom is feeling better, I don’t want to go, because I feel stuck there without anything to do. Let’s ask the kids how they feel. Maybe they would like to go with you while I stay home.”

Are you perceiving his questions as being loaded or critical? Maybe they are, but maybe they’re just questions.

This is the point where you can change the pattern by articulating what you want to have happen. You don’t have to be critical of his family’s plans, but you can enunciate your preferences. You don’t have to back down.

This is about what I was thinking.  My husband often interprets my questions to him as complaints or criticism, but they are just questions. In his case, it comes from his parents' passive aggressive non-communication style: everything has a subtext. It has taken me a long time to "retrain" him (for lack of a better word) to see questions as... just questions. 

This does present a good opportunity to further discuss this, if he will. 

[Ting Tang]

24 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

It sounds to me like he was asking questions, trying to gauge how you and the kids feel. That doesn’t sound negative. I would respond to questions with answers: “Yes, even if your mom is feeling better, I don’t want to go, because I feel stuck there without anything to do. Let’s ask the kids how they feel. Maybe they would like to go with you while I stay home.”

Are you perceiving his questions as being loaded or critical? Maybe they are, but maybe they’re just questions.

This is the point where you can change the pattern by articulating what you want to have happen. You don’t have to be critical of his family’s plans, but you can enunciate your preferences. You don’t have to back down.

Well, he usually says it's about the kids.  But all of our trips are "water" vacations of some sort, and we have a pool in the back yard.  We also have a lot at a gated community with access to a beautiful pool, diving board, and water slide.  So I don't feel this is necessary, lol.

I'm trying not to be mean, considering his mom's health.  I think it has just been this way for so long, and the fact his mom is sick shouldn't have anything to do with it, but now it will.  I am rarely asked. I am just told.  Ugh.  But I love the idea of him going with everyone... ha ha

[Grace Hopper]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I had fun taking my kids to an indoor waterpark last Spring Break, but I would not in any way call it a vacation. The kids were overstimulated and had trouble regulating anything. And I rarely see my in-laws outside of holidays. You’ve been more than selfless with your time. Stay home & have him take the kids. 

We spent one weekend at a water park hotel and that was enough to convince me that, along with Chuck E Cheese, such places are portals to h-e-double hockey sticks. A crowded pool in unfamiliar surroundings at holiday travel/peak virus spreading season sounds like a giant stress bomb for the parent who will be left in charge of supervising kids in the water. 

1 hour ago, Innisfree said:

It sounds to me like he was asking questions, trying to gauge how you and the kids feel. That doesn’t sound negative. I would respond to questions with answers: “Yes, even if your mom is feeling better, I don’t want to go, because I feel stuck there without anything to do. Let’s ask the kids how they feel. Maybe they would like to go with you while I stay home.”

Are you perceiving his questions as being loaded or critical? Maybe they are, but maybe they’re just questions.

This is the point where you can change the pattern by articulating what you want to have happen. You don’t have to be critical of his family’s plans, but you can enunciate your preferences. You don’t have to back down.

I agree that tone is hard to read in a text message and that you need to make time and opportunity to discuss this face to face. Send the kids out to play or whatever, or invite your husband outside so you can have an adult conversation. (This is so important in marriage even when there’s nothing serious to discuss!) 

I’d practice saying, “I have decided not to go. I will stay home with any kids who do not wish to go, and you (dh) can take those who want to go with you.”

fwiw I think his continually bringing up the mother card is (a) projecting his feelings onto you, and (b) manipulating you so he can have fun without being responsible for the kids. I mean, if mom lives right next door you already have *plenty* of time to spend with her. In fact, true quality time together, especially as life winds down for one party in the relationship, can come down more to quiet, important conversations than shared adventure. Water park hotels don’t strike me as the kind of place for generating such quality conversations. 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Grace Hopper

[Innisfree]

6 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

  I am rarely asked. I am just told.  Ugh.  But I love the idea of him going with everyone... ha ha

But now he’s asking, so answer. You brought up how you feel, and he’s trying to find out more. That’s not the time to quit talking.

 I agree that talking in person would be better, but don’t just drop the subject. Either send the kids out to the yard, etc., or talk after they’re in bed, or call him on the phone, or keep texting. Just don’t assume a negative attitude on his part without clarifying.

[marbel]

34 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

But now he’s asking, so answer. You brought up how you feel, and he’s trying to find out more. That’s not the time to quit talking.

 I agree that talking in person would be better, but don’t just drop the subject. Either send the kids out to the yard, etc., or talk after they’re in bed, or call him on the phone, or keep texting. Just don’t assume a negative attitude on his part without clarifying.

re: the bolded - if you just drop it, it's going to look like agreement (because he wants it to look like agreement). Now is your chance to change the status quo. Keep talking!  💗

[freesia]

I do think it’s important that you keep saying but the kids who want to go with you can. Of course he likes the trip—he gets a vacation while you watch the kids. 

[thatfirstsip]

If it's about the kids, that's fine! He can take the kids. He surely doesn't need you to take care of them for a few days.

 

[Jaybee]

It's actually possible that not everybody else in the family is crazy about these trips either. You might be paving the way for some other people to also make different choices. It might not be seen as progress to those who want things to stay the same year after year, but as the grandkids in the family start getting older, it will likely change anyway. 

[Bootsie]

Have you considered stating what you would like to do rather than telling him what you do not want to do?  If the issue is that you want to take a take a different getaway, spending the time and money in a different manner, stating that you don't want to go on the family trip still doesn't get you what you would like to do. 

Or, if it really does sound good for him to go and take the kids and you stay behind, then you might try presenting it as a win for everyone:  "I know that it is really important to you to go on the family water park trip and the kids would probably enjoy the time with their grandmother and cousins.  And, I know that I am usually tired after all of the business of Christmas.  How would it be if you take the kids and enjoy the trip while I stay home and enjoy the peace and quiet for a few days to relax and rejuvenate?  I think everyone will enjoy the few days more that way?"  

[Carol in Cal.]

On 11/7/2023 at 4:49 PM, Ting Tang said:

So the fact we are all sick from the germs she brought prompted me to post this. She’d mentioned how much sickness was floating around at her school where she teaches, and the kids said she was coughing more than usual. I cannot tell you how many times this has happened. Once, she found out my niece had Covid and still came down! She does stay nextdoor, but it’s still a disruption in our lives. She doesn’t take advantage of us or anything like that… just too much all the time…she likes to make sure her kids get farming opportunities. It’s just my entire social life seems to be around them. Multiple weekends, weekdays, and vacations. I don’t even feel like my husband uses my labor for the MN trip; it’s just more time we’re not really interacting with each other and are around the in-laws if we are together. Once at a restaurant on vacation, he didn’t even  sit with me and the kids and then made a remark about how I didn’t order the kid drinks—I’d thought he had. I feel like one day that will be me—tears, with the inability to get into vehicle on the way to a vacation. I just know few other women would do this, yet he paints me as the bad guy. I thought if we didn’t live nextdoor, we could be more of a unit. I can’t see a way out without a fight.  I agree it’s wrong to tell be I’ll regret this when MIL passes, but maybe she’ll also live a long time, and I’ll have wasted so many years being unhappy. Probably just in time for my middle aged ailments. 

I’ve been reading along and I get it.  That midwestern vacation vibe, where the guys have fun and the kids have some fun and the women don’t.  Yup.  DH’s FOO is like that.  Every season his dad would go off to hunt or fish, and it was SACRED.  And if you went along, the kids might get some hunting or fishing lessons but the women would have to do all the cooking, cleaning up, and kid wrangling.  

I avoided that by saying what I wanted, not what I didn’t want.  Deer season is always Thanksgiving week there.  I would say, I am willing to join you but not until I go to church here at home on Thanksgiving.  That’s the point of Thanksgiving to me.  Which, since the good hunting is the prior Saturday, meant essentially that I would just go for a couple of days, and would not be the DIL who cooked the darned deer hearts wrong, a complaint I heard frequently about my sister in law.  Let me just state for the record that I have no idea how to cook a stupid deer heart, no interest in eating one, and less than no interest in learning how to cook one.  Or 2 or 3, which would be typical.  Nor do I want to go outside and see the deer hung up on the swing set to drain or whatever they do out there.  Plus the group would all be jammed into the ‘place up north’ which was an isolated cabin in the cold, an assortment of no less than 10 people, no one getting enough sleep, lots of beer, lots of guns (albeit generally very safely handled.)

The way this played out was that DH stopped bringing this up, and once or twice he went without me, and I was great with that.

Generally, though, mostly I handled stuff like this by having other things to do.  I’d go visit but bring books along.  I’d research fun things to do in the area, most of which the FOO had never done either, and some subset of the group would go visit those things.  Or I’d plan another vacation and make all the arrangements and make it attractive but not be invested in whether or not DH went.  It took away some of the fun of it for me, because I like to look forward to things, and without being able to picture whether he was along it was hard to do that, but it made it easier to just be busy.  Christmas—same thing.  He wanted to go there for Christmas, turns out they don’t really DO ANYTHING for Christmas, while we have Big Family Customs, so when we went there we flew on Christmas Day so we could do Big Family Christmas Eve, which was absolutely important to me.  We did that a couple of times—once with just him and DD and several times all three of us, and it was fine.  

All this to say, just being the complainer usually doesn’t play out well.  It invites others to jolly you along or guilt you or do whatever it takes to get you to agree.  Whereas, if you have something you want to do instead, all laid out, that you’re excited about yourself, it’s a much stronger and more persuasive stance.  You’re more likely to prevail that way and a lot more likely to enjoy yourself.

Also, just in general, I’d say to make a list of things you enjoy doing alone, and with each of your kids, or all of them, and plan one of those things every week, even if it’s just for an hour or two.  It’s really important to fill your cup and your relationship with your kids’ cup, and it sounds like life is not working out that way right now at all.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Carol in Cal.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

Well, he usually says it's about the kids.  But all of our trips are "water" vacations of some sort, and we have a pool in the back yard.  We also have a lot at a gated community with access to a beautiful pool, diving board, and water slide.  So I don't feel this is necessary, lol.

I'm trying not to be mean, considering his mom's health.  I think it has just been this way for so long, and the fact his mom is sick shouldn't have anything to do with it, but now it will.  I am rarely asked. I am just told.  Ugh.  But I love the idea of him going with everyone... ha ha

Ya. It has nothing to do with mom. Seriously. Of all the things to NOT take a cancer patient to, a crowded child infested, spreading influenza and covid infused, noisy, over stimulated environment is the thing. Sheesh. They are most certainly not thinking about what is best for her.

You husband gets a vacation because HE gets to go off and do his thing while you single parent. He is trying to manipulate you emotionally and using his mother as the screw he tightens. That is truly disgusting and gross.

[BusyMom5]

If you have went on the big family trip for that many years, I'm sure your kids have a lot of fun memories attached to it.  I would still go, but I would have my own agenda of things to do- like plan school, read, etc.  Things you can do on your own.  I'd also insist on having my own car so I could go shopping or out to eat, movies, or wherever.   

It sounds like the main stress is from the frequency of SIL trips and how it upsets the daily flow in your house.  As kids get older, school takes a lot more time.  I try to keep 4 mornings a week for school- no one here, no one calls, kids can't go places.  I'm flexible when I can be, but I know if I don't try to keep on track we will fall behind- especially the high schoolers!  Between activities and family meals, you are stretched too thin.  I would come up with a reasonable amount of time for meals and playing with cousins and set that boundary.  Something like weekdays 2-6, and weekends home by bedtime.  

If you farm, I'm not sure by your post if you are living there or running the farm, then you need flexibility built into your life.  Cows get sick, right now its deer season and my boys will be hunting this week until mid morning,  winter sometimes means chopping ice in ponds, helping feed hay, sometimes we have bottle calves (like now).  I try hard to balance that along with getting our work done.  

Hugs- it sounds like you are all very stressed out.  Mil diagnosis is hard, and itvwill require everyone to work together ❤️ 

[Terabith]

I love the beach.  My husband really likes the beach. It turns out neither of my kids like the beach, which we didn’t find out till they were about 12.  To be fair, I think they had fun when they were really little, but when they got old enough to express an opinion, they did, and that’s great and healthy and we changed the trips we planned!  Because vacations should be fun for all the people going on them!

[thatfirstsip]

25 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I’ve been reading along and I get it.  That midwestern vacation vibe, where the guys have fun and the kids have some fun and the women don’t.  Yup.  DH’s FOO is like that.  Every season his dad would go off to hunt or fish, and it was SACRED.  And if you went along, the kids might get some hunting or fishing lessons but the women would have to do all the cooking, cleaning up, and kid wrangling.  

I avoided that by saying what I wanted, not what I didn’t want.  Deer season is always Thanksgiving week there.  I would say, I am willing to join you but not until I go to church here at home on Thanksgiving.  That’s the point of Thanksgiving to me.  Which, since the good hunting is the prior Saturday, meant essentially that I would just go for a couple of days, and would not be the DIL who cooked the darned deer hearts wrong, a complaint I heard frequently about my sister in law.  Let me just state for the record that I have no idea how to cook a stupid deer heart, no interest in eating one, and less than no interest in learning how to cook one.  Or 2 or 3, which would be typical.  Nor do I want to go outside and see the deer hung up on the swing set to drain or whatever they do out there.  Plus the group would all be jammed into the ‘place up north’ which was an isolated cabin in the cold, an assortment of no less than 10 people, no one getting enough sleep, lots of beer, lots of guns (albeit generally very safely handled.)

The way this played out was that DH stopped bringing this up, and once or twice he went without me, and I was great with that.

Generally, though, mostly I handled stuff like this by having other things to do.  I’d go visit but bring books along.  I’d research fun things to do in the area, most of which the FOO had never done either, and some subset of the group would go visit those things.  Or I’d plan another vacation and make all the arrangements and make it attractive but not be invested in whether or not DH went.  It took away some of the fun of it for me, because I like to look forward to things, and without being able to picture whether he was along it was hard to do that, but it made it easier to just be busy.  Christmas—same thing.  He wanted to go there for Christmas, turns out they don’t really DO ANYTHING for Christmas, while we have Big Family Customs, so when we went there we flew on Christmas Day so we could do Big Family Christmas Eve, which was absolutely important to me.  We did that a couple of times—once with just him and DD and several times all three of us, and it was fine.  

All this to say, just being the complainer usually doesn’t play out well.  It invites others to jolly you along or guilt you or do whatever it takes to get you to agree.  Whereas, if you have something you want to do instead, all laid out, that you’re excited about yourself, it’s a much stronger and more persuasive stance.  You’re more likely to prevail that way and a lot more likely to enjoy yourself.

Also, just in general, I’d say to make a list of things you enjoy doing alone, and with each of your kids, or all of them, and plan one of those things every week, even if it’s just for an hour or two.  It’s really important to fill your cup and your relationship with your kids’ cup, and it sounds like life is not working out that way right now at all.

Per the bolded: it's not that I think you're wrong. I'm sure this is more persuasive 

 

I just don't understand a equal relationship in which you have to persuade the other person to let you choose to not go on a vacation you hate. Can't you just...not go? You don't need to persuade anyone. You're an entire adult. You can just say "I don't want to do this; I don't enjoy it." - and then not do it, because you don't enjoy it.

 

[Carol in Cal.]

3 minutes ago, thatfirstsip said:

Per the bolded: it's not that I think you're wrong. I'm sure this is more persuasive 

 

I just don't understand a equal relationship in which you have to persuade the other person to let you choose to not go on a vacation you hate. Can't you just...not go? You don't need to persuade anyone. You're an entire adult. You can just say "I don't want to do this; I don't enjoy it." - and then not do it, because you don't enjoy it.

 

You don’t have tp persuade them.  It’s just that they might not try so hard to persuade YOU, and/or if you plan something as an alternative they might want to join you.

Right now the dynamic is that the whole family has always done these things together, and everyone is expected to go along with it.  If you just say that you don’t want to, that’s a lot less strong than saying what you want to do instead.

Like this:

DH:  Well, we’ll be having some fun in the hot pools for sure this year!

You:  I don’t want to go this year.

Vs.

DH:  Well, we’ll be having some fun in the hot pools for sure this year!

You:  Actually, I’ve planned something else this year for a change—a road trip to the Grand Canyon!  I’m so excited—I’ve always wanted to see it.  I’m sure the kids will love it, too, and it fits great with their geology studies.  I’m still debating between a helicopter tour or a raft trip through it on the river.  Either way it will be so great!

The question in each case is, what does DH say next, and do you stand your ground?  But in the first case you’re kind of just a spoiler, while in the second you’ve thought through a great alternative.  The latter is easier for DH to explain to his family, which is important to him, and more likely to end up being fun than just staying home while everyone else goes off for the family custom ‘fun’, and also generally stronger because it’s not got the subtext of “I hate those trips” but rather the subtext of “Going on a trip is fun, and here’s the one I’m laying out this year.”  So, fewer hurt feelings generally.

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Well, he usually says it's about the kids.  But all of our trips are "water" vacations of some sort, and we have a pool in the back yard.  We also have a lot at a gated community with access to a beautiful pool, diving board, and water slide.  So I don't feel this is necessary, lol.

I'm trying not to be mean, considering his mom's health.  I think it has just been this way for so long, and the fact his mom is sick shouldn't have anything to do with it, but now it will.  I am rarely asked. I am just told.  Ugh.  But I love the idea of him going with everyone... ha ha

I think his mom’s illness could have something to do with it if they keep thinking it could be the last one…but sometimes dying doesn’t happen on a schedule.

If you went on the trip on the premise that this is the last one, is there room to negotiate more elbow room for your nuclear family on an ongoing basis? If so, that might not be enough to make you want to go, but it could be another tool to use to communicate your wishes and might land differently in his brain.

We used to think around potential last this or that with grandparents, but then my grandmother had turned out to live a long healthy life. Now we prioritize seeing her any time it works (we don’t live near her), and we don’t take her for granted, but people have loosened up and are willing to flex now that we realize there really is no way to plan. I get that pancreatic cancer is different, but you can’t constantly downshift your family priorities in a family where you see your MIL all the time.

[marbel]

19 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Like this:

DH:  Well, we’ll be having some fun in the hot pools for sure this year!

You:  I don’t want to go this year.

Vs.

DH:  Well, we’ll be having some fun in the hot pools for sure this year!

You:  Actually, I’ve planned something else this year for a change—a road trip to the Grand Canyon!  I’m so excited—I’ve always wanted to see it.  I’m sure the kids will love it, too, and it fits great with their geology studies.  I’m still debating between a helicopter tour or a raft trip through it on the river.  Either way it will be so great!

Hmm... I think there is a middle ground that is more likely not to result in a huge blowup. I would not announce that not only am I not going on the usual trip, but I have already planned something for myself and the kids, excluding Dad. 

Why not something like:

Actually, I need to do something different this year. We've been doing this a long time and I know you love it, but it doesn't work for me, and hasn't for a long time. I'd like to do [whatever different thing you want to do]. I haven't discussed with the kids yet but they should have a choice of which to do. 

I'd discuss with the kids after it's been made clear to Dad that Mom is not going, and see what option (go with Dad/go or stay with Mom) they prefer. They may split up, or who knows? I've read the whole thread but I don't have a clear picture that the kids either love or hate this trip. (I do remember that one kid expressed a desire to do more nuclear family activities but I don't know if Dad knows that or not.) 

Re: a pp expressed that maybe this will break the seal of everyone going on the trip whether they want to or not. Look up the Abilene Paradox. I lived that every time we visited my in-laws. Finally I told my husband we needed to take some control over that visit or we'd be either sitting around their house "visiting" for a week, or going off on outings that no one was really interested in. 

[kathyl]

I don't see anything wrong with just saying 'I'm staying home this year'.  And no matter what 'reason' he comes up with to justify your going, keep coming back with a simple 'It's not about _____.  I'm just staying home.'  

IOW, if you don't have the emotional bandwidth to do what others are saying above (all great ideas, btw), just keep it extremely simple.

That's kind of how I blundered into it in my situation.  A simple 'I'm staying home this year'.  And let the chips fall where they may.  Deal with those chips after the 'vacation' is over.

Oh, and OP, you are definitely NOT "being mean".  I mean, like someone said upthread, what the heck are they thinking taking a cancer patient to a water park full of kids anyway?!  It might feel like you're being mean just because it's new behavior.  But once you get the hang of saying 'No, not this time' you'll LOVE it.  😉 

[kbutton]

45 minutes ago, marbel said:

Abilene Paradox. I lived that every time we visited my in-laws.

I had no idea that had a name. MIL is the queen of living this out.

[Carol in Cal.]

16 hours ago, marbel said:

Hmm... I think there is a middle ground that is more likely not to result in a huge blowup. I would not announce that not only am I not going on the usual trip, but I have already planned something for myself and the kids, excluding Dad. 

Why not something like:

Actually, I need to do something different this year. We've been doing this a long time and I know you love it, but it doesn't work for me, and hasn't for a long time. I'd like to do [whatever different thing you want to do]. I haven't discussed with the kids yet but they should have a choice of which to do. 

I'd discuss with the kids after it's been made clear to Dad that Mom is not going, and see what option (go with Dad/go or stay with Mom) they prefer. They may split up, or who knows? I've read the whole thread but I don't have a clear picture that the kids either love or hate this trip. (I do remember that one kid expressed a desire to do more nuclear family activities but I don't know if Dad knows that or not.) 

Re: a pp expressed that maybe this will break the seal of everyone going on the trip whether they want to or not. Look up the Abilene Paradox. I lived that every time we visited my in-laws. Finally I told my husband we needed to take some control over that visit or we'd be either sitting around their house "visiting" for a week, or going off on outings that no one was really interested in. 

I didn’t mean to imply that I had already planned something with the kids excluding Dad.

I meant to imply that I had planned out a fun trip and hoped that Dad and the kids would also come along and enjoy it.

[Happy2BaMom]

TingTang, I went through your posts and have pasted below a series of things you've said which really stood out to me. I think it might be worthwhile for you to see in black & white what your own experience with your own husband is:

"My husband has a tendency to side with his family and to disregard the value of my feelings over theirs….

"I have been going on this trip since 2010.  Almost every year, it has resulted in some kind of fight before or during the trip.  He points out all the reasons why it's a great trip for our family and how much the kids love it, basically discrediting my reasons for not wanting to go…..

"I'd probably go on that after Christmas trip with just my own family, but my only excuse for not going with all of them is I do not want to be around them so much, and that is not good enough for them...

"We are not aligned or bonded these days when it comes to how we spend our free time or what the kids do.  😞 He is not into kid extracurriculars at all, even with the boys....

"He always says how much he wants me to go, but I feel like I do a lot of sitting around and waiting for him while he is out fishing, then I feel obligated to socialise with them for 10 days straight.  We tow a boat, and he is very opposed to bringing two vehicles, so I just always feel kinda trapped...

"It’s just my entire social life seems to be around them. Multiple weekends, weekdays, and vacations. I don’t even feel like my husband uses my labor for the MN trip; it’s just more time we’re not really interacting with each other and are around the in-laws if we are together....

"I just know few other women would do this, yet he paints me as the bad guy.....

"The fact is, I am going to be the "bad guy" for not wanting to spend more time with his family away, with his mother being sick....  

"I didn't plan this trip.  I am just always expected to go along with things....

"I am rarely asked. I am just told....."

************************************************************

You & your dh have some *serious* marital issues going on. (Sorry if that's harsh, but your own words tell the story.) If he won't attend counseling with you (which I kinda doubt he will, but perhaps....), you will have to accept that you are at a crossroads. You will need to: put & shut up (which is what you've been doing, and is what he wants you to do) and quietly live a miserable life, or you can choose to start educating yourself for how to advocate for your own needs (& the needs of the children); this might include seeking counseling just for yourself (highly advised), but you could also go the self-help route with books and videos. The downside of Choice #2 is that it *will* increase conflict in the relationship(s), and you'll need to be prepared for how to navigate that while calmly holding your ground and w/o becoming Bitch Mama (which will play into the narrative that you're being Unreasonable).

It's not fun, but this relationship is at a crossroads, too. It either needs to grow, or it will continue to die. (A relationship where one party continually ignores and denigrates the needs & wants of the other party *is* a dying relationship.)

Again, sorry if this is harsh, but I don't see that pretense is helpful here.

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Happy2BaMom

[SHP]

On 11/12/2023 at 4:53 PM, Carol in Cal. said:

I’ve been reading along and I get it.  That midwestern vacation vibe, where the guys have fun and the kids have some fun and the women don’t.  Yup.  DH’s FOO is like that.  Every season his dad would go off to hunt or fish, and it was SACRED.  And if you went along, the kids might get some hunting or fishing lessons but the women would have to do all the cooking, cleaning up, and kid wrangling.  

Interesting. I had never heard this before. It wasn't a thing in my FOO. In my husband's FOO he does the grunt work to give his dad a break. FIL and DH are the only ones in that family who are not lazy bums or not so drunk as to be unable to do anything. I was not OK with DH doing all the work, I was not OK with FIL doing all the work, and like h3ll if I am going to clean up after the lazy bums/drunks. So we stopped going. No big family vacations. No small family vacations. Not even a camping trip. I feel bad that FIL still cleans up after his middle aged-nearing retirement age children, but that is his boundary to establish and not something I can do for him. 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, SHP said:

Interesting. I had never heard this before. It wasn't a thing in my FOO. In my husband's FOO he does the grunt work to give his dad a break. FIL and DH are the only ones in that family who are not lazy bums or not so drunk as to be unable to do anything. I was not OK with DH doing all the work, I was not OK with FIL doing all the work, and like h3ll if I am going to clean up after the lazy bums/drunks. So we stopped going. No big family vacations. No small family vacations. Not even a camping trip. I feel bad that FIL still cleans up after his middle aged-nearing retirement age children, but that is his boundary to establish and not something I can do for him. 

I grew up in the Midwest and also have never heard of this and don’t think it’s really a Midwest thing, more of a family culture thing regardless of location. I personally knew lots of men growing up who went on hunting or fishing trips, usually with other adult men. The wives rarely went along, and then it was usually after the kids were grown and gone, and usually the kids only went when it was a day trip, not a vacation, unless they were at least teenagers who could take care of themselves. My brother still goes on hunting trips with other men, never with his wife or children and they are young adults now. I’m not saying what Carol described doesn’t happen in the Midwest, I just don’t think it’s some common Midwest cultural thing.

 

[Shoeless]

Not just midwestern; I've seen that dynamic in my corner of Texas. Hunting, fishing, camping trip: kids run wild, dad is busy being outdoorsy/half in the bag, and mom is responsible for cooking, washing, kid watching.  Doesn't sound like much fun to me. 

My FOO does an east coast variation on this: apple or pumpkin picking at a u-pick farm at least an hour from home. The day ends with cranky, sticky kids, dad wandering off for a nap, and mom angrily making dinner, bathing kids, making pies, cleaning the kitchen while dad snoozes. 

[City Mouse]

I hope I’m not causing more pain, but with Ting Tang’s post about her father passing, I can really see the big glaring issue.

She is supposed to bend over backwards to do everything that DH and DH’s family wants, but she had to go to. Chicago all alone for her father’s passing. It doesn’t even sound like her DH offered to go with her, or that any of those other family members stepped up to take care of things at home so that he could go with her. 
 

No wonder she doesn’t want to live with those people. I would be running for the hills. I will leave off any further opinions as I would be not nice.

[QueenCat]

14 hours ago, Frances said:

I grew up in the Midwest and also have never heard of this and don’t think it’s really a Midwest thing, more of a family culture thing regardless of location. I personally knew lots of men growing up who went on hunting or fishing trips, usually with other adult men. The wives rarely went along, and then it was usually after the kids were grown and gone, and usually the kids only went when it was a day trip, not a vacation, unless they were at least teenagers who could take care of themselves. My brother still goes on hunting trips with other men, never with his wife or children and they are young adults now. I’m not saying what Carol described doesn’t happen in the Midwest, I just don’t think it’s some common Midwest cultural thing.

 

Definitely not a Midwest thing... Probably happens everywhere, but is certainly not the culture of the midwest.

[Ting Tang]

On 11/14/2023 at 9:20 AM, City Mouse said:

I hope I’m not causing more pain, but with Ting Tang’s post about her father passing, I can really see the big glaring issue.

She is supposed to bend over backwards to do everything that DH and DH’s family wants, but she had to go to. Chicago all alone for her father’s passing. It doesn’t even sound like her DH offered to go with her, or that any of those other family members stepped up to take care of things at home so that he could go with her. 
 

No wonder she doesn’t want to live with those people. I would be running for the hills. I will leave off any further opinions as I would be not nice.

My ill MIL watched the kids.  He went plowing (done with harvest).  I wondered if he didn't offer because he was confused about the severity, but here is the kicker:  I texted him from Chicago telling him my father had passed.  When I got home from Chicago, the kids came home from nextdoor.  He was still at work---plowing.  I'm sorry, he could have at least been there when I got home.  It was about 7PM.

Now his cousin whom I've never met is coming into town to "say goodbye" to his aunt and mother, who both have cancer the first weekend in December.  It happens to have been arranged by his sister.  He may or may not be there because it is another hunting weekend, and I better not be mad because "I wouldn't like grocery store receipts" without the meat.  I was told she wants to meet me and the kids, but honestly, I don't see why I need to be involved in this when it is a busy weekend. Nobody asked me.  My daughter's birthday is one day, and the next, she has a sports clinic.  I am being gaslighted.  He said he wouldn't go to my dad's funeral if I didn't meet his cousin---all because I said I wanted to "celebrate my daughter's birthday."  He said sometimes we had to do things we didn't want to do.  But this has been going on long before his mom has been sick.  I've never liked going to MN, we had arguments about it since 2010. And I am sorry, she had breast cancer several years ago and has been battling this for two years. I feel like my own life is passing me by in a way.  My husband just had his own birthday, and I actually thought he was a year younger. I was so out of it, and that was so stupid of me, but sometimes I do feel frozen in time.  They just make plans for me.  Because his mom is dying, for years, I have to come last. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Ting Tang

[Faith-manor]

5 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

My ill MIL watched the kids.  He went plowing (done with harvest).  I wondered if he didn't offer because he was confused about the severity, but here is the kicker:  I texted him from Chicago telling him my father had passed.  When I got home from Chicago, the kids came home from nextdoor.  He was still at work---plowing.  I'm sorry, he could have at least been there when I got home.  It was about 7PM.

Now his cousin whom I've never met is coming into town to "say goodbye" to his aunt and mother, who both have cancer the first weekend in December.  It happens to have been arranged by his sister.  He may or may not be there because it is another hunting weekend, and I better not be mad because "I wouldn't like grocery store receipts" without the meat.  I was told she wants to meet me and the kids, but honestly, I don't see why I need to be involved in this when it is a busy weekend. Nobody asked me.  My daughter's birthday is one day, and the next, she has a sports clinic.  I am being gaslighted.  He said he wouldn't go to my dad's funeral if I didn't meet his cousin---all because I said I wanted to "celebrate my daughter's birthday."  He said sometimes we had to do things we didn't want to do.  But this has been going on long before his mom has been sick.  I've never liked going to MN, we had arguments about it since 2010. And I am sorry, she had breast cancer several years ago and has been battling this for two years. I feel like my own life is passing me by in a way.  My husband just had his own birthday, and I actually thought he was a year younger. I was so out of it, and that was so stupid of me, but sometimes I do feel frozen in time.  They just make plans for me.  Because his mom is dying, for years, I have to come last. 

Ting Tang, I am so sorry! You are right about the gaslighting, and he is abusing you. Flat out abusing you even if it isn't physical in nature.

I don't know if you have any desire to attempt to save the marriage or not. But I do believe that regardless of ANY of his behavior or his family's antics, it is time for you to just stand up and say No. No is a full sentence. I know many couples who have no relationship with each other who live as roommates for the sake of finances and stability for the kids. You can do that, and it is a perfectly acceptable choice while you sort this out. The fact that your dad died and he couldn't be bothered to give a rat's ass at all about you is a clue to me that in all likelihood, he doesn't care in any way about you. So you need to take care of yourself and the kids, he is a pay check and not much more. Don't bad mouth him to the kids, but also don't expect any involvement from him. Start thinking about how you want 2024 to go for you and the kids. Draw some lines in the sand. Get a routine going, and if he complains tell him "too bad, so sad, this is how it is now because I am taking charge of my life and doing what is best for our children", and then ignore his whining and complaining.

Again, I am so sorry. It sucks. It sucks big time. However, I do not believe he cares enough to change.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Faith-manor

[Innisfree]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

He said he wouldn't go to my dad's funeral if I didn't meet his cousin

This is beyond awful. Immature, bean counting, reflexive cruelty. 

[freesia]

I don’t know. I don’t completely agree with Faith-manor. When someone changes the family system by acting out of role, there is push back. Ting, I recommend you get counseling to help you with your boundary setting. You can stand up for yourself and say no. He will push back bc that’s your system—but that doesn’t mean you have to change. So you hate the grocery bill? He doesn’t have to stay home, you don’t have to stay home.  It’s not a good weekend for your family. That’s ok. If he chooses to go hunting to help the family, then he can explain that to his sister. 

[freesia]

3 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

This is beyond awful. Immature, bean counting, reflexive cruelty. 

I would call his bluff on this. 

[City Mouse]

I get so mad for you just reading this, and I’m sure what you post is just the tip of the ice burg. He doesn’t respect you at all. He seems to see you only as an extension of himself, and he talking to you as if you were a child. 

My DH and I do lots of things without the other - including visiting relatives and taking vacations. I would not have been able to stay married for 30+ years if my DH had the same expectations as yours. 

[Lecka]

He is just not showing up for you, for the death of a parent.  Really this is one of those times when someone should just show up for their spouse no matter what else is going on.  

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

He may or may not be there because it is another hunting weekend, and I better not be mad because "I wouldn't like grocery store receipts" without the meat. 

Off topic msybe but I hate this argument.  Sure the meat itself might be free or cheap depending on how you process  it, but allllll the other expenses that go into hunting aren’t being accounted for.  Guns, feed, special clothes, gas to hunting area, 4 wheelers, lease/rent/mortgage/taxes on the property you hunt at, etc.  aren’t free. The by product of meat might be free but it’s a very expensive hobby.  

In my opinion that is just further gas lighting. 

[Heartstrings]

55 minutes ago, freesia said:

When someone changes the family system by acting out of role, there is push back.

I think that thinking through what the possible push back could be is a helpful exercise at least though.  If it’s possible he’d become physical if not placated, then that says something.  If he is likely to tell her to leave if he isn’t getting his way then thst says something.  
 

She can always go back to placating him while she makes plans if she tries to stand up for herself and learns something uncomfortable.  

[BusyMom5]

Not going to support ME at a parents funeral would be so hurtful, I'm not sure I could get over it.  I think much of your feelings are coming from this incredible lack of care/love/partnership.  Hugs, and I hope this week is good for your family.   

[Ting Tang]

Honestly, I don't care if he goes hunting.  It is a very expensive hobby, and though it isn't my thing, as long as I do eat meat, I just go along with it. I just don't think I should be required to visit with his cousin, a visit planned by others, on my daughter's birthday, without him.  It's not like I never see his mother--she lives next door.  I see her plenty.  I'm certainly not choosing to not ever see her.  I have given his family 13 years of my life--so many days, weekends, trips, gatherings, etc.  I have few memories made by my husband and me with and without our children.  If I told him we are going on the same trip for 10 days with my brother's family, I think he would be mortified.  Of course, that will never happen because I'd never expect that.  Before we got married, I never thought to ask if I'd have to do their family vacations every single year.  Till this day, nobody has asked.

He said that his comment about the funeral was to "give me a taste of my own medicine" with regard to his cousin's visit, a cousin he never talks to.  We all know this isn't the same.  It is hurtful, but maybe I should just go by myself and be done with it.  I told him, "you said what you said."  

I am at the point of being okay with saying no.  I am going to tell him I am tired of being in a marriage where I am not put first by him, we aren't put first as a couple to ourselves, etc.  I am going to tell him I'm going to put myself first since he certainly isn't.  He can either change, stay the same, or divorce me.  But I'm just not doing this any more.  I didn't marry him.  It turns out I married his family, and he never detached to make a family of his own.  Nobody would put up with this.  Whatever we had in the beginning has deteriorated over the years because of all of this.  

Yes, you should be there for a spouse when a parent dies, regardless of the circumstances.  You just don't say certain things, and I think what he said is different from what I am saying. His mother and sister can have their time with his cousin. 

I am rambling so much.  Thank you all for making me feel more sane!

[prairiewindmomma]

I don’t want to minimize the amount of hurt you feel by your husband’s emotional betrayal, but I would also encourage you to pause for a moment and put the emotions aside and really plan out your next moves:

1. Are your kids ready to go back to public school? What would they need to do to become ready?

2. Are you ready to begin FT employment? Can you sustain yourself above poverty level? Is there education or training that you need first?

3. Who would be the right attorney for you and your situation? What would a division of assets likely look like? 
 

Be strategic. Things sound like they are at a crossroads, and your timing of drawing lines in the sand could potentially really shape your life. Be smart while doing what you need to do.