Why do people say Kids/young people don’t want to work/expect free money???

[Ginevra]

Where does this belief come from and why is it perpetuated? 
 

I literally cannot name one young person or teenager who refuses to work for pay and/or expects “free money”. My kids all worked from an early age. My recent college grad is trying to get a “real” job but has not landed one yet. My teenager works several days a week at a fast food place, where everyone else but the managers are teens/young adults. 
 

I *do* think it is hard to fill positions; I see this with the position my boss is trying to hire so I can train someone before I leave. But I don’t understand where this belief comes from, that says there are eligible workers who are just rather sitting around waiting for their free money. 
 

Any insight? What is your experience where you live? 

[Ausmumof3]

My son works pretty hard at two jobs and most kids his age are getting jobs.

[HomeAgain]

Kids today are less likely to let themselves get jerked around.  That's what it comes down to.  It's a shift in workplace culture.  They have no loyalty to a place that might treat them poorly and will move on.  It makes those in an older culture a bit like fish out of water, trying to navigate these changing values.

[cintinative]

I have two kids that work for Kroger. On a regular basis, other kids don't show up for work. On any given Saturday, as many as seven or eight do not show up. They are not laid off, I'm guessing because of labor shortages (?).  This same thing happens at their friend's store about 30 minutes away.  If people don't want to work, they don't come in.

I have a friend who is a nurse and she had another girl she was precepting that didn't show up to work for multiple days. Finally they did let her go, because she literally refused to come in.

I don't know that the generalizations are all true (how often are they really?), but there is definitely a problem where we live with people not being responsible and showing up to work when they are scheduled. 

 

[Zinnia2]

Most teenagers and young adults I know are also working.

However, there is still a noticeable amount of service jobs that are open.  Because there are so many openings, people can choose where to work, and they choose the places that have the reputations for being the most fair places to work.  We probably really do have a worker shortage where I live--it is a small, growing town that has focused on tourism and attracting retirees for the last 20 years.  Those things have worked well....lots of both tourism and retirees.  But those folks aren't working at McDonald's.  

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, cintinative said:

I have two kids that work for Kroger. On a regular basis, other kids don't show up for work. On any given Saturday, as many as seven or eight do not show up. They are not laid off, I'm guessing because of labor shortages (?).  This same thing happens at their friend's store about 30 minutes away.  If people don't want to work, they don't come in.

I have a friend who is a nurse and she had another girl she was precepting that didn't show up to work for multiple days. Finally they did let her go, because she literally refused to come in.

I don't know that the generalizations are all true (how often are they really?), but there is definitely a problem where we live with people not being responsible and showing up to work when they are scheduled. 

 

Wow! I haven’t experienced that at all! So interesting…

[Bootsie]

I don't think there is a blanket statement like that that can be made, but I  have seen several things that contribute to that type of thinking:

1)  We have lots of "fundraisers" for kids events that are simply asking for donations; you will see groups on a street corner with their containers collecting money for their sports team to "got to state".  The kids are not washing cars or doing chores to raise the money.

2)  You don't see any teens in my area doing things like mowing lawns to earn money.  I would be hard pressed to find a teen I could hire to mow my lawn even for a couple of weeks during the summer while I am on vacation.  They do not even mow the lawns at their own houses.  For example, my neighbors across the street have three boys who have to pick up their baseball and other sports equipment when the lawn service comes to do their lawn.

3) My young adult children have seen a number of friends just decide not to show up for work when they decide to take a ski trip or other vacation--if they lose their job they will find another.  Or, they have had friends set up "go fund me" accounts for their study abroad trip or other activity they would like to participate in.  

[happi duck]

I think it started being said by people who are against universal healthcare, expanding public school past 12th grade, raising minimum wage, unions for baristas etc, student debt forgiveness, decent paid leave/sick days etc.  A way to make treating people decently sound ridiculous.

Now it's just generalized to "kids" want everything to be free.

I doubt the people doubling down on that know any examples and think every working "kid" is an exception.

[Arcadia]

My teens don’t work and we don’t expect them to. Among my social circles, teens and young adults rarely work. I know a friend’s kid that worked as a lifeguard for fun money. Another friend’s child works as a dental assistant while in college because she is applying to school of dentistry. The focus is more on getting internships. None of them are asking or thinking about free money but their food and shelter are already provided by parents. Our local retail stores and supermarkets seems to be overstaffed though but it could be more staff are on duty because we are approaching Thanksgiving and Christmas. Fast food joints here are well staffed.

[prairiewindmomma]

I have relatives who say this repeatedly. They all watch a certain news channel. And, indeed, this phrase and line of thinking is repeated there often. 

[vonfirmath]

36 minutes ago, cintinative said:

I have two kids that work for Kroger. On a regular basis, other kids don't show up for work. On any given Saturday, as many as seven or eight do not show up. They are not laid off, I'm guessing because of labor shortages (?).  This same thing happens at their friend's store about 30 minutes away.  If people don't want to work, they don't come in.

I have a friend who is a nurse and she had another girl she was precepting that didn't show up to work for multiple days. Finally they did let her go, because she literally refused to come in.

I don't know that the generalizations are all true (how often are they really?), but there is definitely a problem where we live with people not being responsible and showing up to work when they are scheduled. 

 

This. I work for a plumbing/sheetmetal company and I know we have a hard time hiring people who will consistently show up and work. (most of our hires are low-mid 20s so if this thread is about teens, I guess this does not apply)

Edited November 2, 2022 by vonfirmath

[marbel]

In my observation, young people want to work. They just don't want to work in demoralizing jobs. 

The jobs that are lacking workers here are customer service related - retail, food service, call center. My kids and I have or had jobs in that sector and it's not a good place to be.  I worked in a customer service call center and we would constantly have employees just vanish, presumably because they got a better gig. Just wouldn't show up for work, and their computer (we worked at home using company-issued equipment) would show up at the office at some point, shipped in or dropped off. It's brutal work, mentally and emotionally. Customers are getting nastier and more demanding. In my area, shoplifting is rampant. Food service workers take a lot of abuse from customers. My daughter told me that she was unusual among her retail and food service coworkers in that she had never had a customer throw something at her. She's seen people throw drinks, keys, food at coworkers. Apparently it's quite normal. 

One of my kids is looking for work, having a hard time getting hired because of having a liberal arts degree and thus considered overqualified. But that kid would be a great, hard worker and just wants to work while they figure out life after college (focusing on warehouse, stocking, and similar behind-the-scenes work for now). The other has two part time jobs, one related to customer service but in a setting where, for the most part, customers are not angry and not stealing. 

 

 

[Clemsondana]

Most of the teens in my circles work hard at something.  Some have a paid job, and other focus on extracurriculars, and of course some do both.  And, I teach teens, too.  We see the full range.  There are teens that work hard at whatever they do - they may not be the best athlete, musician, or student, but they do their best with a good attitude.  Then there are the students who come to class, refuse to take notes, turn in work late (or not at all), and then complain that the teacher is impossible.  I'm fortunate because I've taught a couple hundred students, so at this point when a student complains to the co-op board that I require an unreasonable amount of work they all know better because I've taught their kids, but things like that, and cheating, are happening with increasing frequency.  We have kids who sign up for Science Olympiad and then don't come to practice.  It's a voluntary activity - if you don't want to do it, don't take a space from somebody who does!  We've had several last-minute scrambles to cover for kids who didn't show up to competitions without warning the coaches ahead of time.

So...my examples aren't with work, but I'd imagine that the behaviors that I see translate into their work ethic in other areas.  Of course there are students who struggle academically but are great in a hands-on job, but those students are usually trying and aren't what I'm talking about.  It seems to be between 5-20% of the students, maybe higher, and at least double what it was when I first started 10 years ago.  Depending on your situation you could think that there are none of these students or that these kids make up 1/2 of the population.  Locally, I know of a couple of fast food places that are being kept open at night by a skeleton staff of high schoolers, and whenever the high school needs something done (a quick post-storm clean-up, etc) they call the sports teams to come take care of it, so there are plenty of kids doing something useful with their time and happy to help out.  But, there are also kids demanding high grades for no work, so I could easily imagine they'd expect money for not doing a lot at their job.  

[Farrar]

WaPo had an interesting article about teens and work over the summer. It traces the history of this very idea in terms of generations. A few pull quotes below.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/07/22/millennials-genz-teen-jobs/

Quote

Our first instinct, informed by endless stories of helicopter parents and padded college applications, was to look at what economists might call supply factors: Why weren’t millennials willing to work?

...

The zoomers were consistent: It wasn’t teens who changed, it was businesses. So, we got on the phone again.

Lyn James owns Flowers & Cappuccino by Lasting Visions, a bright spot of floral arrangements and fancy coffees in Bowman, a rural hub of 1,470 on North Dakota’s rolling western plains. (She’s also Bowman’s mayor.)

In the past, James said, she struggled to find teen workers. It’s impossible to build a regular schedule around their myriad obligations at school, in the community, and at their homes and ranches.

But with workers in short supply, teen hiring became a necessity. So James embraced flexibility: She began drawing up schedules that accommodated teen activities and hired a mix of young folks involved in different sports and clubs who don’t all need to be off at the same time.

“We still have good coverage and staffing, and yet the kids can still be kids,” James said.

...

Payroll data from more than 200,000 businesses using Gusto shows a similar trend nationwide. In April 2019, teens made up about 2 percent of new hires on their platform, said Gusto’s Pardue. By this April, the teen share of new hires had more than quadrupled to 9 percent. Wages grew faster for teens than for any other age group.

“What we’re seeing across all industries, really, is that teens are stepping up to fill this gap as older workers age out of the workforce or are either still unable or unwilling to come back,” Pardue said.

So, if school and extracurriculars don’t actually keep teens from working — as long as businesses are willing to hire them — maybe this isn’t a supply problem at all. Maybe millennials’ notorious, generation-defining exit from the teen labor force was always about demand.

When demand for workers changes, teens feel it first. They’re more exposed to the cruelties of the economic cycle than any other group. And millennials have had worse economic luck than any other generation in history.

 

[Clemsondana]

I'll add...businesses vary a lot in their hiring.  30 years ago, one of my fellow band kids worked at McDonalds, and they absolutely worked around her schedule - Friday night games, Saturday competitions, after school practices.  Chick-fil-A seems to work around kids' schedules, too, as long as they aren't just avoiding all non-preferred shifts.  But, our local grocery store has been advertising for ages with spots to fill.  I checked one week asking about whether it was possible to work 1 4-hour shift each week, every week, and they said no, the minimum was 2.  My kid would happily work a 4-hour early morning stocking or checking shift, but doesn't want to commit to more than that because of extracurriculars.  I understand, but it's lose, lose - they still have spots, and kid doesn't work.  Kid has a couple of ideas for work starting next spring/summer, so we'll see how that goes.    

[BusyMom5]

I'm sure it varies based on where one lives, but it is true that many places hire younger workers and then only a certain percentage of them actually show up for their shifts or do their jobs.  My DD got a job this summer and they hired about 2x the number of people they needed,  then weeded them out.  Its a bad business model, bc they gave all the new hires about 10-15 hours a week.  Some quit immediately bc they needed more hours.  Many had issues with child care, transportation,  or they just didn't want to work certain shifts.  Mine was at every shift on time, and filled in when needed.  They want her to come back on Christmas break, but I don't think she plans on it.  In some cases its true that some of them didn't want a job, but family forced them to apply.  They get the job, do a crappy job at it (as in just do not do the job, even if they show up), or just stop showing up.  Others need and want a job, but it takes too long to work through the hiring process and working your way up to regular hours. Some come to work but did not do their jobs correctly- so that's write-ups until they can fire them.

I know people like to poo-poo jobs like Wal-Mart or McDonald's,  but they are paying a good wage near me, and they also need more regular workers.  Some are lacking in the management department,  but its all a hot mess bc neither side can win.  It is a great place for younger workers to get experience and references!  Its impossible for hiring managers to tell who will be reliable and who won't- some don't even really do interviews (my DD just got a call offering her the job- no references called, no meeting at all).  It ends up not being fair to anyone.  If more new hires showed up and learned their job,  hiring managers could hire for the positions and times they needed.  If managers had reliable help, they wouldn't have to keep so many of that lower end scrambling for child care, giving so few hours, and unpredictable hours.  The flakey employees put a burden on everyone.   I have been in businesses that have said "X many people didn't show up today.  Sorry we are short-handed."  

[prairiewindmomma]

My kids’ experiences have been that their places of employment are chronically understaffed—-but their hours are often cut, managers are slow to hire replacements, and other workers often leave when they discover they can earn a few $ an hour more somewhere else. My kids remain where they are only because they have preferred shifts that also allow them to go to school. They have never been late, never been sick, never taken a vacation day, and they work hard. They have watched coworkers collapse at work from exhaustion and heat, been threatened and assaulted, and have had extensive dealings with mentally ill people. For all of that, they did not get the pay raise as agreed by their unions and their employers, so their unions are suing for enforcement. 
 

If their coworkers ghost when they find a better paying job, that doesn’t cut their shifts repeatedly, and doesn’t have an abusive manager…they aren’t necessarily personally offended. 

[Arcadia]

16 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

.  In some cases its true that some of them didn't want a job, but family forced them to apply. 

College applications also asked for number of hours worked so not only parents but guidance counselors as well are recommending getting job experience to teens and young adults. Kids are “competing” on ECAs, community service hours and work experiences for college applications and internship applications.  

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, happi duck said:

I think it started being said by people who are against universal healthcare, expanding public school past 12th grade, raising minimum wage, unions for baristas etc, student debt forgiveness, decent paid leave/sick days etc.  A way to make treating people decently sound ridiculous.

Now it's just generalized to "kids" want everything to be free.

I doubt the people doubling down on that know any examples and think every working "kid" is an exception.

This is how it is meant locally. The very same people who complain about kids being "freeloaders" are also the ones consuming far more in social security and Medicare benefits than they ever paid in. While I don't have an issue with that because I think a civilized nation should simply take care of folks, I do have a massive issue with the hypocrisy of it.

I think it is often just a way for employers degrade an entire generation as an excuse for treating them poorly. Here, fast food and grocery stores refuse to publish the weekly shift schedule more than one day in advance. How are they supposed to schedule doctor's appointments, car repairs, or anything else with less than 48 hours notice? These same employers refuse to give any kind of regular set schedule. It is beyond unpredictable. I suspect it is this way so that they force people to be absent, and then use it as an excuse to never give pay raises for promotions.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Faith-manor

[BlsdMama]

7 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

This. I work for a plumbing/sheetmetal company and I know we have a hard time hiring people who will consistently show up and work.

I’m curious the location and starting wage. I have an uncle I adore who says the same but consider this: If pay is $15/hour and Chic FilA is $15/hour and I don’t have to exert myself unduly, where am I going to go? He installs irrigation systems and they get wet & dirty. It’s very physical, not to mention my friends don’t work there and no free chicken. 😉 

As far as adults, my 17 year old completes his welding courses in December. He’s told starting wage is $24-$28 with benefits for full time employees. What we’re seeinga lot of is that many employers have not raised their wages to be competitive with other local employers. The truth is there is a labor shortage caused by exiting boomers. All of the people who were able to move to better jobs and better past have moved and/or are moving. 
 

i hear a lot of grumbling that “kids these days don’t want to work,” but I think that’s the easy (and political) out to shed blame. 
 

My college students both work. They’ve both mentioned shortages. I do think practice comes into play. Both my parents and my father in law grew up on working farms. They worked from a young age. My 12 year old nephew helped harvest and I don’t mean, “Aw how cute, sitting with Grandpa.” My kids have worked as farm labor. It’s hot, dirty, sweaty work. They know what it is to work hard and it is most certainly true that a smaller percentage of the under twenty crowd have had that experience. My dad’s generation? They weren’t working for fun money. They worked to make the family farm go ‘round. There was no, “Okay Dad, after this video game.”

 

 So I guess it matters who is doing the talking, like most things. Some of the chatter is genuine, other far less genuine. 

[Laura Corin]

There were a lot of jobs advertised in the local tourist town this summer. Hobbes walked into two with part-time hours and was then offered full-time hours at one of them. So he dropped the one that didn't guarantee hours -  maybe that looked like a young person not wanting to work.

Here part of the issue is older people giving up working during Lockdown and not coming back. Young people have a lot of jobs to choose from .

[Carrie12345]

Easy targets that shift perceived responsibility are easy to “sell”.

My kids started working early until my current 15.5yo, who wants to work, but I don’t feel it’s in his best interest right now.

I also believe it’s ridiculous to place an expectation of work on anyone attending school full time.  
And our current unemployment numbers are insanely low.

We continue to create too many low paying jobs    (clarifying below) for the size of the workforce and ignore fortifying the fields we actually need as a society.

So, like, none of us (or almost none of us) need 5 dollar stores per town. But we get 5 dollar stores per town. And the dollar stores don’t pay enough to be worthwhile to the small number of available potential workers, leaving the stores insufficiently staffed, and working the few employees they have to the bone for those peanuts. Or making for crappy staffs that aren’t fireable if the store is to stay open.

So we say “no one <good> wants to work” instead of “there are no good jobs available.”

 

[cintinative]

Tagging onto @Clemsondana's post, my kids have definitely seen kids who don't want to work when they are at work. They are supposed to be doing carts, but they are out in the parking lot, on their phone, scrolling.  Or they just disappear and no one can find them when they are needed to do something. It drives my oldest nuts--he is often the one who has to go out and do carts to "catch up" because some kid barely moved any carts over his shift.  That said, I don't think that my son would say the majority are this way. 

[Grace Hopper]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Where does this belief come from and why is it perpetuated? 
 

I literally cannot name one young person or teenager who refuses to work for pay and/or expects “free money”. My kids all worked from an early age. My recent college grad is trying to get a “real” job but has not landed one yet. My teenager works several days a week at a fast food place, where everyone else but the managers are teens/young adults. 
 

I *do* think it is hard to fill positions; I see this with the position my boss is trying to hire so I can train someone before I leave. But I don’t understand where this belief comes from, that says there are eligible workers who are just rather sitting around waiting for their free money. 
 

Any insight? What is your experience where you live? 

I JAWY! My kids work darn long workweeks, two of them do emotionally gut-wrenching work and one of them is waaaaay underpaid for it. 
 

I do know there are people who can’t afford to work at many of the open jobs because they wouldn’t be compensated enough to meet their bills, so they take two part time jobs that add up to more. 

[Bootsie]

In the 1980's the labor force participation rate of 20-24 year olds in the US was almost 80%; today it is just above 71%.  The labor force participation rate of teens (16-19 years old)  has fallen even more dramatically-from over 55% in the 1980s down to about 35% today.  

[Clemsondana]

1 minute ago, cintinative said:

Tagging onto @Clemsondana's post, my kids have definitely seen kids who don't want to work when they are at work. They are supposed to be doing carts, but they are out in the parking lot, on their phone, scrolling.  Or they just disappear and no one can find them when they are needed to do something. It drives my oldest nuts--he is often the one who has to go out and do carts to "catch up" because some kid barely moved any carts over his shift.  That said, I don't think that my son would say the majority are this way. 

Even with sports stuff, where kids are making an impression on the coach, there is a lot of goofing off.  In baseball, the players do a lot of the field maintenance and work at tournaments as fundraisers.  Kid is boggled at how little some kids do when they are 'working'.  Actually, that's one of kid's thoughts for summer work.  The organization putting on the tournaments has some paid people working the stat streaming, and then the host field has kids volunteer to cover the scoreboard.  Kid said that the paid workers were so incompetent that he usually ended up doing both the scoreboard and the stats - they'd play on their phone and miss stuff, making the stats wrong.  So, kid is going to see if the coach will help hook him up to do paid work over the summer.  Apparently, kid could do it and also do the volunteer shift to help out the team.  🙂 Kid plays a lot of tournaments, but they are with a different org and kid could likely work 2 days a week, which would be fine.  Kid may or may not be a starter for the team, but coach likes his work ethic so I'm guessing he'll help kid get a job if he can.  

[QueenCat]

9 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

In the 1980's the labor force participation rate of 20-24 year olds in the US was almost 80%; today it is just above 71%.  The labor force participation rate of teens (16-19 years old)  has fallen even more dramatically-from over 55% in the 1980s down to about 35% today.  

I think for the 16-18 year olds, more are involved in extra curriculars than used to be. And more 18-22 are in college? At least, it seems like that. I don't have actually stats to give but from my experiences, in the places we've lived, more kids go to college. And are either not working or working less. Mine only worked their required scholarship hours during the school year (5 hours per week). They worked more in the summer.

[Heartstrings]

11 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

In the 1980's the labor force participation rate of 20-24 year olds in the US was almost 80%; today it is just above 71%.  The labor force participation rate of teens (16-19 years old)  has fallen even more dramatically-from over 55% in the 1980s down to about 35% today.  

I think that's because of college, for both groups.  More people go to college, and get more advanced degrees today than in the 80s.  That's a big chunk of that 20-24 age bracket.  They are in college or grad school. 

Teens are doing more in high school to get into college or compete for scholarships.  College prep requires multiple APs, several clubs, preferably leadership positions in those clubs, hours spent in tutoring and test prep for the all important SAT scores that so many scholarships depend on.  All of that means fewer hours for teens to work.  Plus the issue of employers not accommodating things for teens.  

[JennyD]

As long as I have to be involved in transportation -- either by driving or loaning my car -- I won't let my teens apply for any job that doesn't have consistent, predictable hours.  

[Farrar]

53 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

My kids’ experiences have been that their places of employment are chronically understaffed—-but their hours are often cut, managers are slow to hire replacements, and other workers often leave when they discover they can earn a few $ an hour more somewhere else. My kids remain where they are only because they have preferred shifts that also allow them to go to school. They have never been late, never been sick, never taken a vacation day, and they work hard. They have watched coworkers collapse at work from exhaustion and heat, been threatened and assaulted, and have had extensive dealings with mentally ill people. For all of that, they did not get the pay raise as agreed by their unions and their employers, so their unions are suing for enforcement. 
 

If their coworkers ghost when they find a better paying job, that doesn’t cut their shifts repeatedly, and doesn’t have an abusive manager…they aren’t necessarily personally offended. 

This highlights something that I'm hearing about a good bit - teens are getting involved in unions pretty early. My kid has now met like three teens who were involved in union activities, including leading a group that was unionizing a Starbucks, all in high school. Zoomers see these sorts of conditions and they have a really different view of unions as a result.

[Bootsie]

6 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think that's because of college, for both groups.  More people go to college, and get more advanced degrees today than in the 80s.  That's a big chunk of that 20-24 age bracket.  They are in college or grad school. 

Teens are doing more in high school to get into college or compete for scholarships.  College prep requires multiple APs, several clubs, preferably leadership positions in those clubs, hours spent in tutoring and test prep for the all important SAT scores that so many scholarships depend on.  All of that means fewer hours for teens to work.  Plus the issue of employers not accommodating things for teens.  

I do think that the higher college attendance rate is impacting this to some degree.  However, these numbers measure any labor force participation, not simply full-time workers.  So, if a kid goes to college and works a couple of hours per week, or works some in the summer or over holidays, that is considered "participation" in the labor force.  My guess is that full-time labor force participation among these groups has fallen off even more dramatically.

[Farrar]

8 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Teens are doing more in high school to get into college or compete for scholarships.  College prep requires multiple APs, several clubs, preferably leadership positions in those clubs, hours spent in tutoring and test prep for the all important SAT scores that so many scholarships depend on.  All of that means fewer hours for teens to work.  Plus the issue of employers not accommodating things for teens.  

If you read the WaPo article I linked, which is looking at the data, they basically found that this only accounted for a small portion of that drop. The bigger drop is businesses weren't hiring them and wages weren't worth it. And that's the element that's beginning to change.

Also, I'll just put out there as a college consultant for anyone who doesn't realize... most colleges LOVE kids who worked, especially at a job long term. Doesn't matter if it's Chick-fil-a or Dunkin Donuts or whatever. It shows reliability and responsibility in a way that many school activities do not.

[Heartstrings]

3 minutes ago, Farrar said:

The bigger drop is businesses weren't hiring them and wages weren't worth it.

I can see this being an issue.  If I'm in charge of scheduling I don't want to keep up with ever changing teen schedules.  Which is where kids benefit from the tight labor market, more employers are willing to deal with more inconvenience.

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

I can see this being an issue.  If I'm in charge of scheduling I don't want to keep up with ever changing teen schedules.  Which is where kids benefit from the tight labor market, more employers are willing to deal with more inconvenience.

Exactly. Which is why the numbers are starting to rise again.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

There were a lot of jobs advertised in the local tourist town this summer. Hobbes walked into two with part-time hours and was then offered full-time hours at one of them. So he dropped the one that didn't guarantee hours -  maybe that looked like a young person not wanting to work.

Here part of the issue is older people giving up working during Lockdown and not coming back. Young people have a lot of jobs to choose from .

Not guaranteeing hours is a big deal. A new department store is set to open in the county seat. They want to hire 40 people, of which only 20 will be give more than 20 hours per week. The other 20 are on call, no notice workers, no guaranteed hours, and many will be fired after the Christmas rush. Management is mad that no one is applying. Well duh! People have to be able to make a living. They will choose to go to the tire center, the pharmacy, the good hardware where the employers give their employees 40 hours a week, pay competitively, and treat them decently. I just want to say to all of these kinds of wishy washy employers, "Stop, Whining! Karma is a b*tch. You reap what you sow."

As for other issues, my husband's company also had a massive wave of retirement in IT when the return to work for those without permanent work remote agreements came into play, and everyone was giving up covid protocols. They were in that 59.5-65 age range where they could access their 401K without penalty, and if they could swing insurance, had the option to not return. His company had hundreds of positions to fill. I am happy for the new college hires. They brought on a whole bunch and are mentoring them through. Dh has four to mentor, and he is so impressed with them. They have been well educated, and are catching on quickly. There will be another wave of retirement in three or four years, and so they will all be eligible for promotions. He waited so much longer than that when he was young in his career despite his skill set being phenomenal. So I am thrilled for these young workers.

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Faith-manor

[Heartstrings]

I think the idea that kids don't want to work comes from people seeing jobs unfilled and work backwards.  They aren't taking into account that about a million people died, about a million people retired, about a million people started their own companies and we're "missing" at least a million immigrants due to Covid. But it's easier to blame "kids these days". 

 

We also probably have a glut of places that require lower skilled (hate that phrase) workers.  We probably have too many restaurants and retail stores in most places.  A few businesses and franchises  need to close so that our number of jobs and number of workers for those jobs can come into alignment. 

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

Kids today are less likely to let themselves get jerked around.  That's what it comes down to.  It's a shift in workplace culture.  They have no loyalty to a place that might treat them poorly and will move on.  It makes those in an older culture a bit like fish out of water, trying to navigate these changing values.

Yep.

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

I have a friend who is a nurse and she had another girl she was precepting that didn't show up to work for multiple days. Finally they did let her go, because she literally refused to come in.

There are a lot of nursing issues locally. A lot. It makes a big problem for the other practitioners who have to work with them. Even where standards are high, there are so, so many things falling through the cracks. 

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

I don't think there is a blanket statement like that that can be made, but I  have seen several things that contribute to that type of thinking:

1)  We have lots of "fundraisers" for kids events that are simply asking for donations; you will see groups on a street corner with their containers collecting money for their sports team to "got to state".  The kids are not washing cars or doing chores to raise the money.

2)  You don't see any teens in my area doing things like mowing lawns to earn money.  I would be hard pressed to find a teen I could hire to mow my lawn even for a couple of weeks during the summer while I am on vacation.  They do not even mow the lawns at their own houses.  For example, my neighbors across the street have three boys who have to pick up their baseball and other sports equipment when the lawn service comes to do their lawn.

3) My young adult children have seen a number of friends just decide not to show up for work when they decide to take a ski trip or other vacation--if they lose their job they will find another.  Or, they have had friends set up "go fund me" accounts for their study abroad trip or other activity they would like to participate in.  

I see this sometimes too, but not always.

Regarding #3, I will say that if an employer is not flexible, sometimes this is the only way. Family time is precious. I am NOT talking about the family that takes multiple, multiple last minute trips all the time. 

In high school, my employer prioritized some kids and their activities over others. It was frustrating. They also posted the schedule as Sunday through the next Saturday, so you couldn't make family plans. It's only gotten worse with some employers (others are great!).

1 hour ago, vonfirmath said:

This. I work for a plumbing/sheetmetal company and I know we have a hard time hiring people who will consistently show up and work. (most of our hires are low-mid 20s so if this thread is about teens, I guess this does not apply)

I am taking it as all young people, including young adults. Ditto around here. The county career center places a high value on attendance to try to get kids ready for this. It's a huge part of what they see as their role because it's such a big problem.

1 hour ago, Clemsondana said:

Of course there are students who struggle academically but are great in a hands-on job, but those students are usually trying and aren't what I'm talking about.  It seems to be between 5-20% of the students, maybe higher, and at least double what it was when I first started 10 years ago.  Depending on your situation you could think that there are none of these students or that these kids make up 1/2 of the population.  Locally, I know of a couple of fast food places that are being kept open at night by a skeleton staff of high schoolers, and whenever the high school needs something done (a quick post-storm clean-up, etc) they call the sports teams to come take care of it, so there are plenty of kids doing something useful with their time and happy to help out.  But, there are also kids demanding high grades for no work, so I could easily imagine they'd expect money for not doing a lot at their job.  

I agree.

1 hour ago, BusyMom5 said:

The flakey employees put a burden on everyone.   

Yep. 

42 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

We continue to create too many low paying jobs    (clarifying below) for the size of the workforce and ignore fortifying the fields we actually need as a society.

So, like, none of us (or almost none of us) need 5 dollar stores per town. But we get 5 dollar stores per town. And the dollar stores don’t pay enough to be worthwhile to the small number of available potential workers, leaving the stores insufficiently staffed, and working the few employees they have to the bone for those peanuts. Or making for crappy staffs that aren’t fireable if the store is to stay open.

So we say “no one <good> wants to work” instead of “there are no good jobs available.”

Rural small cities and towns in a nutshell...

[vonfirmath]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

I’m curious the location and starting wage. I have an uncle I adore who says the same but consider this: If pay is $15/hour and Chic FilA is $15/hour and I don’t have to exert myself unduly, where am I going to go? He installs irrigation systems and they get wet & dirty. It’s very physical, not to mention my friends don’t work there and no free chicken. 😉 

 

 

Austin-area

Every job has a minimum wage they must pay at each level. And must submit wage reports showing it. We're a unionized shop. So I would not think the wage was outrageously low. And we do have some that are quite loyal. But what do I know. it is not the job I do.

 

However "not getting paid what I want to be" does not justify accepting the job and showing up 3 or 4 days out of 5. (And then the same the next week. And the next week -- so this is not the person who just leaves without saying they are leaving) If you need to make more, that's great. Give your notice and go find another job. don't leave us expecting you to show up and don't even call to tell us you are not coming in today.

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by vonfirmath

[Faith-manor]

23 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think the idea that kids don't want to work comes from people seeing jobs unfilled and work backwards.  They aren't taking into account that about a million people died, about a million people retired, about a million people started their own companies and we're "missing" at least a million immigrants due to Covid. But it's easier to blame "kids these days". 

 

We also probably have a glut of places that require lower skilled (hate that phrase) workers.  We probably have too many restaurants and retail stores in most places.  A few businesses and franchises  need to close so that our number of jobs and number of workers for those jobs can come into alignment. 

This is so astute! A McDonalds, Taco Bell, Burger King, Dollar General, and CVS on every street corner of every city in America is not a sustainable plan. Corporate expansion though had never been about long term planning, but always about short term gain. " Oh look, we are expanding". Stock price skyrockets. Investors make a killing. Then boom, oh wait, we don't have customers and employees for all of these places. Stock tumbles. And round that ring we go again. No one ever blames the corporate fat cats making these decisions though...just the regular Joe trying to make a living, and living on a budget that does not include eating out 7 nights a week, and buying knickknack crap and candy all the live long day. 

[WendyLady]

Just a couple observations, which prove nothing but seem interesting to me. My youngest son is going to college at the same university that his oldest sister attended, about 12 years apart. This fall, the food court was offering large bonuses and still not filling open positions. 

The food court and nearly all student jobs shut down for Covid and even last year they didn’t have a full food court open. It’s possible that students who would have traditionally needed to work on campus found jobs in town. Or families found that they could help cover more expenses for their college students than they would have before?

This fall, we also noticed that there seemed to be no junker cars on campus any more. Our daughter drove my grandmas 20+ year old toyota Tercel when she was a student (total junker). Our son doesn’t have a car to drive.

Perhaps it is just me assuming everyone is like me, but my attitude about helping college students has changed over the last 12 years. My parents believed in not helping college students in any way. You were lucky to get a phone call after you left for college and if you couldn’t find a way home for Christmas or summer, then that was fine.

We had a small college fund for our daughter but she was expected to be mostly independent and she had great scholarship. I never checked her bank account. Our son also has a scholarship but not as great, and he has a job to help cover some expenses, but we are helping him with monthly grocery costs, and I check to make sure he has money for food (he cooks and doesn’t eat a meal plan). My parents live near our college kids and my mother likes to say “you help your kids soooooooo much!” And we do help more than my parents did but it feels like we do less than most others.

All that to say, maybe it’s the parents not the kids. If I’m doing more to support my college kid financially, maybe I’m not alone. I think the newer cars in the very full freshman parking lots may show that parents are doing more to support their college kids than a generation or even 10 years ago. 

[cintinative]

48 minutes ago, Farrar said:

 

Also, I'll just put out there as a college consultant for anyone who doesn't realize... most colleges LOVE kids who worked, especially at a job long term. Doesn't matter if it's Chick-fil-a or Dunkin Donuts or whatever. It shows reliability and responsibility in a way that many school activities do not.

I needed to see this. My kid doesn't have loads of extracurriculars but he does work about 22 hours every week and more (when they can schedule him) in the summer.

I should have mentioned this before, but the same kid complained last summer that he couldn't get enough hours. He wanted about 30-34 and they were consistently giving him 16.  It was because they had a whole bunch of kids who worked Saturday only, etc. during the school year that also wanted more summer hours. 

We do have the issue of an unpredictable schedule. Really the only way we found to avoid that is to really limit availability. Even so, some weeks he works Thursdays and some he doesn't.  Shrug. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by cintinative

[whitestavern]

My kids started working at 14 and never were without a job after that. Almost none of their friends had jobs until after college, though a few got summer jobs during. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by whitestavern

[Faith-manor]

31 minutes ago, WendyLady said:

Just a couple observations, which prove nothing but seem interesting to me. My youngest son is going to college at the same university that his oldest sister attended, about 12 years apart. This fall, the food court was offering large bonuses and still not filling open positions. 

The food court and nearly all student jobs shut down for Covid and even last year they didn’t have a full food court open. It’s possible that students who would have traditionally needed to work on campus found jobs in town. Or families found that they could help cover more expenses for their college students than they would have before?

This fall, we also noticed that there seemed to be no junker cars on campus any more. Our daughter drove my grandmas 20+ year old toyota Tercel when she was a student (total junker). Our son doesn’t have a car to drive.

Perhaps it is just me assuming everyone is like me, but my attitude about helping college students has changed over the last 12 years. My parents believed in not helping college students in any way. You were lucky to get a phone call after you left for college and if you couldn’t find a way home for Christmas or summer, then that was fine.

We had a small college fund for our daughter but she was expected to be mostly independent and she had great scholarship. I never checked her bank account. Our son also has a scholarship but not as great, and he has a job to help cover some expenses, but we are helping him with monthly grocery costs, and I check to make sure he has money for food (he cooks and doesn’t eat a meal plan). My parents live near our college kids and my mother likes to say “you help your kids soooooooo much!” And we do help more than my parents did but it feels like we do less than most others.

All that to say, maybe it’s the parents not the kids. If I’m doing more to support my college kid financially, maybe I’m not alone. I think the newer cars in the very full freshman parking lots may show that parents are doing more to support their college kids than a generation or even 10 years ago. 

I just wanted to say that the prices of used cars has gone through the roof to the point that for our 22 year old, it was not worth getting a "junker". The price tag for a nag that was going to break down every few weeks was absolutely ridiculous so it was far better to help him buy newer by giving down payment money and co signing the loan. I know many parents in that same boat. It was the only way to get their young adults into any kind of safe transportation. Also, in my parents' day, they seriously did not worry about safety issues. And those issues did not impact car insurance prices. Parents now tend to think about safety more on top of the fact that car insurers now charge an astronomical amount for cars without modern safety features, and those features must be proven to be in working order. Over the life of the car, literally having or not having side curtain airbags alone was enough to make the price difference between an older model vs. a newer model, cost prohibitive. Unless used car prices on older models go way down, I think we will continue to see a lot of parents helping their young adults get newer cars.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Faith-manor

[regentrude]

16 minutes ago, WendyLady said:

All that to say, maybe it’s the parents not the kids. If I’m doing more to support my college kid financially, maybe I’m not alone. 

On the topic of supporting college students: college has gotten much more expensive. And it may make more sense financially for the family to support the student so he can focus on classes to maintain the high GPA for their merit scholarship that is much more money than they could earn working a minimum wage job. 
We did not require our kids to work while in college; any jobs they took were related directly to their field and useful to build a strong resume. But we couldn't have paid for DS' school without his 20 k/year merit scholarship. That calculation was a no-brainer.

ETA: On the car issue: it makes more financial sense to get a not-so-old used car or even a new car that will last, as opposed to an overpriced junker that is unreliable and causes all kinds of issues a college student is ill-equipped to deal with. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by regentrude

[EmilyGF]

Our experience is that kids can't get jobs where we live, but we have a huge unemployed adult population and a very high minimum wage. DS17 filled out about 15+ job applications and followed up in-person for each one. Usually he ended up getting told, "We prefer hiring adults." (He ended up doing a summer math enrichment at the university instead, when nothing worked out, and continued to teach piano privately.)

OTOH, there are local employers who give out "I was on time today!" stickers to employees to acknowledge them for punctuality, so hiring adults doesn't seem to have worked well, either. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

I know a some kids who don't work, and who appear to think they are entitled to money from the bank of Mom and Dad whenever it is required. They haven't made the connection between work, money and their parent's life hours yet.

It seems a class thing for me where I am - the middle class kids don't get jobs, the working class kids do.

(of course, it goes without saying, I do not know all the kids everywhere - this is only true within my circles - I am sure there are middle class kids with jobs all over the world)....

Tbf, my own parents were the same - they didn't want my sibling or I to work while at school - we needed to 'focus on our academics'. I think they made a mistake, and that earning one's own money can be an important source of freedom and autonomy for teens.

 

 

[bolt.]

I live in a major city in Canada, and I almost never see teen workers doing any kind of job at any time. Like, I literally can't remember the last time I saw a person younger-looking than my 17yo stocking shelves or taking fast food orders. I really notice this when I travel and stop in a rural place or smaller city and I say to myself, "Wow, that worker sure is young!"

So I don't really know what that's about. Some of my friends' teens have work such as refereeing in sports leagues or lifeguarding, but most high schoolers are not working that I know of. I don't know what that's about, but (without implying anything 'bad' about it) it might be immigration? That a business would rather have a full-time reliable grown up worker who will stay on the job for years -- rather than a revolving-door of teen workers? Many people who immigrate to Canada "land" here (literally, our airport is international) and start their lives here. I think those folks are open to opportunities that also appeal to teens and young adults, but as applicants they may be more highly motivated, more qualified, and perceived as more reliable than the younger crew.

By this, I absolutely do not mean "darn immigrants stealing our jobs" -- I think enterprising world-traveling new citizen adults deserve to secure the good jobs they apply for! (Most of them would thrive even better if they could get jobs in areas where they are skilled and qualified, but that's another story.) To me, I haven't really felt that many families truly need a teen to be an income earner in order to make ends meet. Teen work is not usually subsistence work, it's often fun-money work. (That may be my privilege and my peer group doing the talking, though.) (And teens who really do need to become income earners before the norm sure do suffer the worst of both worlds.)

[Clemsondana]

To follow up with a couple of comments...yes, we had planned to get a used car for our teen(s), but if we were willing to wait for a new car to come in (it took 6-8 weeks) then it cost around the same thing as a used one.  So, with better safety, gas milage, and a warranty, the new one was the better deal.  

But, about college...something has shifted over the past 20 years.  Lots of students had help from parents, or parents who paid for everything, but college was cheap and we lived a pretty bare-bones existence.  We had no TV for the first 2 years, lived in small dorm apartments (not singles) and cooked our own inexpensive food, many of us walked everywhere, etc.  I remember bartering - take me to the store and I'll fix dinner to pay for the gas money.  We did treat ourselves - dinner at a greasy spoon diner and a trip to the dollar theater.

I go on campuses now and it's a different world.  Students with Starbucks, restaurants everywhere, dining halls have really good, upscale food like made-to-order omelets...I can't figure out how they pay for it all.  It's almost like...well, I have so much in student loans, what's a hundred dollars a month in coffee?  I don't actually understand what is going on, but the contrast of 'cheap college and bare bones living' vs 'crazy expensive college with high end food and amenities' doesn't make sense to me.  There may be some reasonable explanation, but I wonder if people see students living a nicer lifestyle than they do, for things like eating out and alcohol costs, and then see students complaining about student debt, and feel like some young adults put the cart before the horse.  Not all students are doing this, clearly, but some students seem to be living the good life before they've earned the money to fund it (and without family who can pay for it for them).  This doesn't fit with most of the kids that I know, but friends who work on campuses see it and marvel.  

[QueenCat]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

I do think that the higher college attendance rate is impacting this to some degree.  However, these numbers measure any labor force participation, not simply full-time workers.  So, if a kid goes to college and works a couple of hours per week, or works some in the summer or over holidays, that is considered "participation" in the labor force.  My guess is that full-time labor force participation among these groups has fallen off even more dramatically.

For the most part, yes. But many students work their scholarship hours, which are paid in the form of their scholarship, not in a paycheck. They aren't technically part of the workforce.

[Faith-manor]

About college. What I see happening is colleges actively wooing, vying for the kids whose parents pay cash...the ones with parents who saved generously their whole lives for their education, kids who come from upper middle class and wealthy homes. The poor, ramen noodle kids aren't living on campus because the size of scholarships has two dwindled dramatically in the face of huge tuition/room and board increases, and financial aid is not generous. Those kids take 11 credit hours a semester which allows them to move off campus because they are not traditional, full time freshmen, and live five -six people to small abodes rented off campus eating tuna and noodles all the time. I know plenty of them. They try to get out in four to four and half years by taking 6-8 credits every summer if they can afford it, and if the right courses are offered. Middle class kids often would prefer some cheap, bare bones dorms as a balance to rising costs, but colleges refuse to provide them since that doesn't help them woo the rich American studrnts, and the full pay foreign students. U diversified also tend to have a high number of commuter students who have parents living close enough that they can stay at home and save rooming costs. So all of those crazy, over the top amenities tend to be there for just the upper echelon of students.

Our two eldest kids long distance commuted to campus, our middle son lived on campus and eventually though he was in the cheapest dorms, could not afford to stay since we could not afford to give him more money, and moved off campus with four friends in a two bedroom dump of an apartment that they shared until we pitched a fit about the condition of the place, and found means to help the four of them get into something safe. Our last was in the cheapest dorms possible at his state school, and managed to stay there all for years due to enough scholarships that with our parental contributions and his summer earnings, he could manage it.