Smaller Family

[TexasProud]

Just musing. I was at my mom's looking at a photo we took at my grandmother's 80's birthday.  In that photo, my mom is 54.  Right now I am about to turn 55 and my mom is about to turn 79.  Anyway, there are my grandmother's 3 children and their spouses. Then two of the children had three children and they all had spouses and at that point 3 kids each. My mom had 2 kids and my sister and I had our spouses. I had 2 kids then and my sister had one. Plus some of my grandmothers siblings. Anyway, a huge picture. 

If my mom survives another year to her 80th, there would be a total of 8 people in the picture. Me, my husband and our three children and my sister, her husband and one child.  Just interesting.  

[Ausmumof3]

20 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Just musing. I was at my mom's looking at a photo we took at my grandmother's 80's birthday.  In that photo, my mom is 54.  Right now I am about to turn 55 and my mom is about to turn 79.  Anyway, there are my grandmother's 3 children and their spouses. Then two of the children had three children and they all had spouses and at that point 3 kids each. My mom had 2 kids and my sister and I had our spouses. I had 2 kids then and my sister had one. Plus some of my grandmothers siblings. Anyway, a huge picture. 

If my mom survives another year to her 80th, there would be a total of 8 people in the picture. Me, my husband and our three children and my sister, her husband and one child.  Just interesting.  

I think this is a pretty common now. We are a declining population without immigration in Australia and I imagine US is the same? My MIL is the exception. She was one of five, only had two and has seven grandkids. 

[Carrie12345]

My grandmother was 1 of 6 so, yeah, we had some great, big pictures!

She and her siblings all had 2-3 kids.

 I’m the exception with 5. My grandmother had 3 (to adulthood), two of those had 3 and one none, my cousins have 3, 2, and 0, and my sisters have 2 and 1.

Even though my parents have 14 grandchildren combined, the most we’ve ever had in one place is 10. (Big, but not as big as family parties when I was a kid.)

[freesia]

Yes, I had 12 first cousins and my children have 2. 3 of my cousins had no children and one of my siblings, 3 of dh’s cousins and his sister have no children. I have to say, though, that my grandfather ( born in about 1890) was one of 12 and only 3 had children. That was because World War 1 killed many of the young men in their town and 9 of the siblings were girls-8 of whom never married. However, my dad had a bunch of cousins bc, good Irish Catholics that they were, the children who had children had many children. 

[Brittany1116]

DH's fam has done reunions for decades. Pics from 80s are soooo crowded. Pics from last 10 years are a small percentage of the earlier ones. First gen here was 9 kids. Current gens have 1-3.

[kristin0713]

My mom is one of 12 and both of my parents have a huge extended family of cousins. I grew up going to really big parties for every occasion, holiday, party, and funeral. Like 30 people at Thanksgiving would have been considered a small crowd. But now when it’s my immediate family and our families, there are just 14 of us. And when we’re not all together because some are with their in-laws, it’s weird and sad and boring. DH’s side is totally different. The extended family is smaller to begin with and there is a lot of dysfunction. Anyway. I do wish my kids could experience what I did with huge parties and so many cousins that you don’t even know who is a first cousin or a second or several times removed cousin. But everyone is so spread out now and no one takes up the task of hosting anything super big anymore. 

[MEmama]

Neither of my parents families were large historically; dad has one sibling and mom has 2. I have two and ofc DS is an only child and my parent's only grandchild (neither of my siblings have kids or long term partners). We are a mix of cultures and geography, so it’s not a reflection of tradition or place.

It seems unlikely that most of our generation's kids will choose to have their own. Were I young today I certainly wouldn’t.

[edelweiss]

6 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Neither of my parents families were large historically; dad has one sibling and mom has 2. I have two and ofc DS is an only child and my parent's only grandchild (neither of my siblings have kids or long term partners). We are a mix of cultures and geography, so it’s not a reflection of tradition or place.

It seems unlikely that most of our generation's kids will choose to have their own. Were I young today I certainly wouldn’t.

I could have written this myself. I doubt that my daughters will have children, and I am not encouraging them to!! 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I don’t think it’s uncommon at all.  My family is probably the exception to the rule. I had two cousins on my mom’s side, five on my dad’s. (I have loads and loads of second and third cousins though)

My kids have 11 cousins on my side; my husband has one sister and she’s infertile so unless an adoption happens(unlikely), they’ll only have cousins on my side.  My youngest sisters are in their 20s and unmarried but both have expressed repeatedly that they hope for four or five kids themselves, so I expect there will be more cousins in the future, plus I am pretty sure two of my sisters aren’t done having kids. Unfortunately we are spread so far apart across the country that there are no large cousin gatherings over Christmas and summers.  
But I know so many people in my age group who never married though they wanted to, and many more who have had secondary infertility and only have had one child.  Among my peers my three kids seem like a large family.  And I would have had more kids if it had been possible physically. But I think my siblings and I are outliers in the number of children we wanted and had.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[retiredHSmom]

My mom was one of five and she is the only one that had kids. My dad was an only child. I have no first cousins and due to my dad'd military career I do not know my second cousins at all.

Four of my five siblings had children (I had 3, one sister had 4 and the other 2 had 2 each) and now my first grandson is three months old and my other two children would like to get married and have children so our family is growing. we are up to 25 for Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter.

 

[regentrude]

My DHs parents were only children. Both my grandmothers were only children. My father was an only.

My mom's two siblings have passed away, and three of my 5 cousins are dead.

I have two siblings,  but my brother cannot have children, and my sister had one. None of that is atypical. 

[elegantlion]

My mom was one of eight siblings. None of her siblings had 8 children, most had 1, 2, or 3 children. One had 4 children and another 6. My first cousin have a huge age span, and I don't really know some of them, all of them are older now - at least in their 40s. Most have less than 3 children, some none and probably never will. 

[TexasProud]

So for those of you encouraging your children not to have children, what will happen to them in old age?  Who will take care of them?  I mean the bulk of mom's care is coming to me, but my sister IS helping as much as she possibly can.  But I worry about my kids if they don't have their own kids to help them when they get older. I mean if oldest doesn't but the other two do, then their kids can help take care of them.  That is what I see are some single elderly aunts being taken care of by grand nieces and nephews. But if no one has kids...

Edited July 26, 2022 by TexasProud

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

5 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

So for those of you encouraging your children not to have children, what will happen to them in old age?  Who will take care of them?  I mean the bulk of mom's care is coming to me, but my sister IS helping as much as she possibly can.  But I worry about my kids if they don't have their own kids to help them when they get older. I mean if oldest doesn't but the other two do, then their kids can help take care of them.  That is what I see are some single elderly aunts being taken care of by grand nieces and nephews. But if no one has kids...

Nursing homes and social workers. I don’t expect my three kids to take care of me, but I also know that, frankly, people who have lots of family in and out get better care in the nursing home.  And it’s really important to have someone advocate for you.  I expect to wind up in a nursing home but hopefully my kids will be involved. My mom has been taking care of her parents almost full time for four or five years now and it’s taken a huge toll on her, but that side of my family is very against nursing homes and won’t consider it at all.

[Pam in CT]

My own family is trending the other way -- my mom was an only child, my father had only one brother, and that brother married another only child... so that one pair of uncle/aunt were the only ones I had; and their kids were the only cousins I had. Growing up my extended family was tiny; it is MUCH larger now.  I had three kids, my brother had three, two of those three cousins had three and the other had two.  So even on my side my kids have loads of cousins, and too many to count on my husband's side.

Both my only-child mother and my only-child aunt were born out of Depression/WWII origin stories; and given those stories I expect their parents may well have felt pretty apocalyptic about bringing children into a broken world.

 

This time does feel similarly fragile.  I know my eldest plans to have kids but I dunno about the other two.

[catz]

There are a fair number of childless people in our church.  They tend to be educated, work longer, and plan better.  They often move to like a senior living option when they're relatively young and active which makes stepwise care in place easier.  

I mean you can have children and there is no guarentee that they will both outlive you and be in a position to help care for you.  

I have seen relatives actually improve and live better when moved to a nursing home sitution.  They are kind of forced to move and socialize and eat balanced meals.  I do think we generally have higher quality options than most but I am not opposed at all.  My mom and my FIL both currently live alone, I assume at some people they will need to move to an assisted living option.  

[regentrude]

17 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

So for those of you encouraging your children not to have children, what will happen to them in old age?  Who will take care of them?  I mean the bulk of mom's care is coming to me, but my sister IS helping as much as she possibly can.  But I worry about my kids if they don't have their own kids to help them when they get older. I mean if oldest doesn't but the other two do, then their kids can help take care of them.  That is what I see are some single elderly aunts being taken care of by grand nieces and nephews. But if no one has kids...

I do not expect my kids to care for me. I hope I may be able to move close and be involved in their lives, but I do not expect them to nurse me. That is what professional help is for. I know the toll eldercare takes on folks, and I do not want to burden my kids with it. That is not the reason I wanted kids.

Also, having children does not guarantee that they would be able to care for an elder parent; it may be impossible for a variety of reasons. Both my brother and my niece need care because of disabilities; my aunt outlived both her children; my DH and I live on a different continent and are not able to contribute except financially. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by regentrude

[TexasProud]

8 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Nursing homes and social workers. I don’t expect my three kids to take care of me, but I also know that, frankly, people who have lots of family in and out get better care in the nursing home.  And it’s really important to have someone advocate for you.  I expect to wind up in a nursing home but hopefully my kids will be involved. My mom has been taking care of her parents almost full time for four or five years now and it’s taken a huge toll on her, but that side of my family is very against nursing homes and won’t consider it at all.

Yes, me too, but that is sort of my point.  I was there all the time for my husband's grandmother and yes, it made a difference in her care.  If they do not have kids and no one to advocate for them, then wouldn't they just get dumped and forgotten??  I hate to think of my kids in that situation.

[TexasProud]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

I do not expect my kids to care for me. I hope I may be able to move close and be involved in their lives, but I do not expect them to nurse me. That is what professional help is for. I know the toll eldercare takes on folks, and I do not want to burden my kids with it. That is not the reason I wanted kids.

Also, having children does not guarantee that they would be able to care for an elder parent; it may be impossible for a variety of reasons. Both my brother and my niece need care because of disabilities; my aunt outlived both her children; my DH and I live on a different continent and are not able to contribute except financially. 

Again, I totally agree.  I've already told them they can move me against my will if I am not thinking clearly and that to remember what I said now and that I love them.  But again, they would be advocating for me.

[TexasProud]

And I guess I am waxing nostalgic as well. The best part of my childhood was all of the family gatherings with cousins and aunts and uncles.  We were in and out of each other's houses. We met to cheer on Phi Slamma Jamma ( Houston Cougars). It wasn't just holidays.  I have fond memories of that.  Our kids didn't meet quite that often, but we got together with my husband's family A LOT and they also have ton of fun memories with cousins and aunts and uncles.  

And their cousins are married and some have kids and they are following the tradition. Tons of families here are as well.  

Edited July 26, 2022 by TexasProud

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

And I guess I am waxing nostalgic as well. The best part of my childhood was all of the family gatherings with cousins and aunts and uncles.  We were in and out of each other's houses.

Yes, of course we are nostalgic for out childhoods, and maybe getting more so with age. After emigrating, I struggled for years with the knowledge that my children would miss all of the things that I remembered fondly from my childhood: multi-generation household, holidays at grandma's, freedom to explore a real city, cultural opportunities.... But they had a good childhood, too. It looked very different from my own, but it had many rich and beautiful experiences I did not have.

[BlsdMama]

On my dad's side (the one I was closest to) Grandma was the caboose baby of 5, I think.  It might have been six.  Grandpa was 2nd child, 1st son, out of four. We knew his siblings well growing up. Grandma & Grandpa had 11 kids.  None of them had very big families.  Then I was one of 3.  
My family of origin picture is 2+ my sister's family (5), my brother's family (5), and ours (13.)  But our family pic would currently have us (2), DD's family (6), DD+her husband (2), plus 9 unmarried kiddos. 😉 You never know when one couple will skew the math, lol.

[marbel]

My family has shrunk but is possibly growing, maybe. My mom was one of 8; my dad one of 5. I have a boatload of cousins; I can't count them all. But my parents had 8 grandchildren altogether and families are tending small or not kids at all; there are 8 great-grandchildren so far.  (My kids are young yet so no idea what they will do.) 

I would not encourage or discourage my adult kids with regard to their family plans. I mean, I'd like to be a grandmother some day - my mother was a fantastic grandma - but it's not up to me. I assume my kids will figure that out on their own. As for their old age, there is no predicting how all that will go, whether they have kids or not. I would never suggest someone have kids so they have have a caregiver in old age. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by marbel

[JennyD]

47 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

My own family is trending the other way -- my mom was an only child, my father had only one brother, and that brother married another only child... so that one pair of uncle/aunt were the only ones I had; and their kids were the only cousins I had. Growing up my extended family was tiny; it is MUCH larger now.  I had three kids, my brother had three, two of those three cousins had three and the other had two.  So even on my side my kids have loads of cousins, and too many to count on my husband's side.

Both my only-child mother and my only-child aunt were born out of Depression/WWII origin stories; and given those stories I expect their parents may well have felt pretty apocalyptic about bringing children into a broken world.

 

This time does feel similarly fragile.  I know my eldest plans to have kids but I dunno about the other two.

Yeah, my family is also not at all a straight line towards smaller families.  Immigration and war disrupted a lot of family formation.  My dad is an only child, but his father was one of 18 (only 6 of whom survived to adulthood).  My mom is one of five, but AFAIK her father was an only child.  

Edited July 26, 2022 by JennyD

[BlsdMama]

42 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

So for those of you encouraging your children not to have children, what will happen to them in old age?  Who will take care of them?  I mean the bulk of mom's care is coming to me, but my sister IS helping as much as she possibly can.  But I worry about my kids if they don't have their own kids to help them when they get older. I mean if oldest doesn't but the other two do, then their kids can help take care of them.  That is what I see are some single elderly aunts being taken care of by grand nieces and nephews. But if no one has kids...

34 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Nursing homes and social workers. I don’t expect my three kids to take care of me, but I also know that, frankly, people who have lots of family in and out get better care in the nursing home.  And it’s really important to have someone advocate for you.  I expect to wind up in a nursing home but hopefully my kids will be involved. My mom has been taking care of her parents almost full time for four or five years now and it’s taken a huge toll on her, but that side of my family is very against nursing homes and won’t consider it at all.

Unique perspective here because obviously I require baby-sitting (for me) NOW and I have kids at home.  I think what @TexasProud is talking about might not even be the physical labor of caring, but it goes even deeper - the loving part that caretakers don't need.  Paid careworkers do the physical aspect.  One thing that has really hit DD in her time working as a CNA is how starved for touch/contact some of her older patients are.  I *hate* having the kids do even the simplest aspects of my care which currently means unloading my mini chair from the trunk, helping me get into it, and swinging my legs into correct position.  Fetching things - like a towel for shower if Dad is away on business or a cup of coffee.  That said, caring for someone and having eyes to see the need that exists has truly changed THEM.  They are a far more compassionate lot.  If I choke on a bite of anything, DS7 instantly asks, "Mom, are you okay? Do you need a drink of water?" @Mrs Tiggywinkle - I don't like the idea of being so needy with the kids at home.  I'm hopeful I'll plateau for a bit because my child who is *most* helpful might be tempted to put life on hold to help.  I hate any idea of that at all.  It's interesting - I remember talking to my Grandma about how much I hated the current culture of, "That's what nursing homes are for," and she as a pro-family person said, "Did you ever think maybe older people prefer a nursing home?" She went on to say that she isn't sure she'd want to be surrounded by young kids 24/7 again, family noise, etc.   She later had to be in a home because of fronto-temporal dementia and the heavy physical/emotional toll.  The physical weight was born by professional caregivers and the family had respite so they could handle the emotional toll.

 

 

There is a certain amount of oversight that exists as well.  Grandpa was in assisted living in his small town community and he had visitors a LOT - all 11 kids live in state with the majority being close.  His grandkids visited often.  Beyond the perks of having visitors, there's also the knowledge by caregivers that family will be in pretty much every day.  In a different setting, there is a lot of value to the accountability and the weight of visits distributed across even 4 is less weight than an only child.  In my Grandpa's case, so what if someone goes on vacation for 7-10 days?  

[J-rap]

I've seen a pattern of larger families during my grandparents' generation (most of my grandparents had 4-6 siblings -- they have all long passed away).  Then my parents' generation tended to be much smaller.  They were born right at the start of or during the Great Depression.  Both of my parents had just one sibling.  When my parents' generation had their own children, in the late 50's through early 70's, they became bigger again -- averaging 3 children for the typical Protestant families I knew.  Typical Catholic families seemed to have even larger families -- anywhere from 4-12.

Now in my own children's generation (and up to 15 years older), almost everyone seems to be having either 2 children or no children at all.  Many are choosing none at all.

I do wonder, a little, how that will play out in old age.  Of course I'd never suggest that young people have children just so they're helped in their old age.  But almost all of my friends have elderly parents who need assistance now.  We're all busy helping a parent with shopping, doctor appointments, driving, or spending many afternoons/week with a parent in a long-term-care center, making sure all their needs are being met, etc.  I think long term care centers really depend quite a bit on children stepping in to help their elderly parents.

Edited July 26, 2022 by J-rap

[Pam in CT]

re "encouraging" adult offspring to have smaller / larger / any number of children

1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

So for those of you encouraging your children not to have children, what will happen to them in old age?  Who will take care of them?  I mean the bulk of mom's care is coming to me, but my sister IS helping as much as she possibly can.  But I worry about my kids if they don't have their own kids to help them when they get older. I mean if oldest doesn't but the other two do, then their kids can help take care of them.  That is what I see are some single elderly aunts being taken care of by grand nieces and nephews. But if no one has kids...

I really can't imagine "encouraging" my young adult offspring to not-have children, or to have lots of children, or exactly three children as I did, or anything of the sort, really.

It's their choice, not mine. 

[Carrie12345]

8 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re "encouraging" adult offspring to have smaller / larger / any number of children

I really can't imagine "encouraging" my young adult offspring to not-have children, or to have lots of children, or exactly three children as I did, or anything of the sort, really.

It's their choice, not mine. 

And why would I encourage them to prioritize their last few years of need above 18+ years of being beaten down by a structure not built for raising families?  
And then *their kids have to? And their kids?

If it’s what they want for their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, great.   
Or just save some money all that time for the best care in those 70s and 80s.

I made humans for my own personal entertainment, but not with the intent of reciprocity. 

[Pam in CT]

4 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

....

I made humans for my own personal entertainment, but not with the intent of reciprocity. 

[TexasProud]

21 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re "encouraging" adult offspring to have smaller / larger / any number of children

I really can't imagine "encouraging" my young adult offspring to not-have children, or to have lots of children, or exactly three children as I did, or anything of the sort, really.

It's their choice, not mine. 

Yeah, I agree. But some in this thread said they were encouraging them not to have children.

[Carrie12345]

2 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yeah, I agree. But some in this thread said they were encouraging them not to have children.

That’s fair. 
In my own case, I am supportive of my kids’ mentions of maybe remaining childless, or at least not creating additional humans. I don’t call that encouragement, but it sort of is in a way. 

[TexasProud]

12 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

And why would I encourage them to prioritize their last few years of need above 18+ years of being beaten down by a structure not built for raising families?  
And then *their kids have to? And their kids?

If it’s what they want for their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, great.   
Or just save some money all that time for the best care in those 70s and 80s.

I made humans for my own personal entertainment, but not with the intent of reciprocity. 

I guess I understand where you are coming from based on the other thread.  But it feels like the structure for raising families IS the family. Part of being in a family is being responsible for each other.  Now obviously, I am talking from a stable, privileged background.  But that is what I am musing about. I want that stable, family to support one another.  Obviously if I am a single mom with not other support then that is an issue.  But that is my point, I guess.  We all look out for one another. If my children decide not to go that route, who supports them? But again, this is NOT a conversation I would ever have with them because it is THEIR life, not mine. I have no say.

Edited July 26, 2022 by TexasProud

[SKL]

Yeah, my folks have 6 kids (which is actually more than either of their parents).

They have a total of 3 children-in-law and 6 grandkids - 9 if you count steps.  So far none of the grandkids are married or parents (unless you count steps).

Edited July 26, 2022 by SKL

[Carrie12345]

1 minute ago, TexasProud said:

I guess I understand where you are coming from based on the other thread.  But it feels like the structure for raising families IS the family. Part of being in a family is being responsible for each other.  Now obviously, I am talking from a stable, privileged background.  But that is what I am musing about. I want that stable, family to support one another.  Obviously if I am a single mom with not other support then that is an issue.  But that is my point, I guess.  We all look out for one another. If they decide not to go that route, who supports them? But again, this is NOT a conversation I would ever have with them because it is THEIR life, not mine. I have no say.

I think it’s SO much harder today than when my mom had kids, or even when my kids were younger, though she and I definitely did have struggles. 
Making adequate income today often depends on mobility. My parents relocated in order to provide for their needs, which is why I didn’t have family support. They need to work, which is why my sibling doesn’t have consistent support. Our aunts and uncles all had/have to work. Heck, my grandmother worked until her own late 60s.

Income is stagnant, cost of living is raging, child care is a disaster, schools are a mess, health care is a nightmare.

My kids know what an insane privilege it is to have parents who can assist them, and also know their odds of reaching that themselves are stacked against them, even with our help. 

[Pam in CT]

re what we read depends on where we stand

5 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yeah, I agree. But some in this thread said they were encouraging them not to have children.

That is interesting. I had not, myself, "received" that sense as I was reading through the thread; so I went back and looked.  There were only a handful of posts that seemed (to me) to even speak to the issue:

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

...It seems unlikely that most of our generation's kids will choose to have their own. Were I young today I certainly wouldn’t.

 

2 hours ago, edelweiss said:

I could have written this myself. I doubt that my daughters will have children, and I am not encouraging them to!! 

[those were the only comments posted before your response "So for those of you encouraging your children not to have children..."]

then a couple more after

51 minutes ago, marbel said:

..I would not encourage or discourage my adult kids with regard to their family plans. I mean, I'd like to be a grandmother some day - my mother was a fantastic grandma - but it's not up to me. I assume my kids will figure that out on their own. ...

 

33 minutes ago, J-rap said:

...Now in my own children's generation (and up to 15 years older), almost everyone seems to be having either 2 children or no children at all.  Many are choosing none at all....

 

and to *my* reading, all of those posts are either speaking of how the poster herself would feel if at childbearing age now; or relaying what they're observing in their offspring.

I don't read any of those posts as "encouraging" their offspring to not have children, as you seem (?) to. 

But maybe the difference is in how we view the issue to begin with?

 

[regentrude]

16 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

 But it feels like the structure for raising families IS the family. Part of being in a family is being responsible for each other. 

Plenty of us are raising families without extended family support. It's not always possible - for a variety of reasons. And it wasn't all rosy in the past either (both my grandmother and great-grandmother were war widows)

Quote

 If my children decide not to go that route, who supports them? 

Partners. Spouses. Friends.
(ETA: Many of my friends don't have children - it's not like that is a new idea of the young generation)

Edited July 26, 2022 by regentrude

[Sneezyone]

33 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

If it’s what they want for their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, great.   
Or just save some money all that time for the best care in those 70s and 80s.

I made humans for my own personal entertainment, but not with the intent of reciprocity. 

This construct is anathema for a lot of people. Children are always a 'blessing', 'gift' or tangible EXTENSION of self vs independent beings with agency all their own that should be respected (which I, like you, find infinitely challenging and entertaining). While I share my adult lessons learned with them and hope they take something from it, they get to make their own choices based on the inputs/environment they're seeing that extend beyond me. *shrug*

[TexasProud]

13 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Plenty of us are raising families without extended family support. It's not always possible - for a variety of reasons. And it wasn't all rosy in the past either (both my grandmother and great-grandmother were war widows)

Partners. Spouses. Friends.
(ETA: Many of my friends don't have children - it's not like that is a new idea of the young generation)

Good point.  I am looking at things from my experience I guess. Hard to imagine for me. 

[prairiewindmomma]

When I married and then had my first two children in close succession, the older women in my family (not my mother—who had always had access to birth control in her marriage—I am talking grandparent and great-grandparent level of age older) pulled me aside and talked about the challenges physically I would face of having kids too close together. They talked about how freeing birth control was for my generation compared to what they had been through, and how to talk to my husband about “not wearing me out.”
 

Having lots of kids wasn’t considered a blessing by them, even though most had done it.

I still had more kids after that, but so far none of my children have any desire to ever have children, and I can’t say that I blame them. 

 

[mom31257]

Both our families are small. 

On my side, I am the middle of three girls. My older sister could never have children. I have 2 kids, but I had trouble getting pregnant and had them later  (age 30 and 36). My younger sister only had one son, who developed uncontrollable seizures at 4 months old, and her husband eventually insisted they never have more children. My mom has passed away as well as my BIL and only nephew.

On my husband's side, he is one of two boys. We have the two kids. His brother only had one child because his wife has some physical disabilities and felt like she could only care for one. My niece has two kids and won't have more. 

My daughter isn't sure she wants to have children, but my son wants to have a couple of kids.  I think I need to find some local kids without grandparents and "adopt" them! 

[mommyoffive]

My grandma had 4 kids

my mom had 2 kids, one sister had 3, one had 1, and one had 8

I have 5 and wish I had more.  For me I see all the pros of having a smaller family and the cons of having a bigger family.  I am not telling my kids to have kids or not.  Do what you want.   I am very much trying to parent them in a different way.  There was a lot of pressure on me from my family to only have a certain number of kids.  And only have kids once I was 35.  Every time I had a kid past the number that was a good number I got a lot of comments over and over again.  But in the end I wish I would have had kids younger and had more.  Other people were pressuring me to have kids on our wedding day and before that.  I am honest with my kids about the work kids are and how a bigger family is more work.  But in the end I won't ever comment on if they have kids or not or how many they have.  I will be super excited if they have kids.  One kid.  20 kids.  Each one will be a gift that I will be so happy to see.  But if they don't there are pros to that too and I am not going to knock it. 

[elegantlion]

3 hours ago, TexasProud said:

So for those of you encouraging your children not to have children, what will happen to them in old age?  Who will take care of them?  I mean the bulk of mom's care is coming to me, but my sister IS helping as much as she possibly can.  But I worry about my kids if they don't have their own kids to help them when they get older. I mean if oldest doesn't but the other two do, then their kids can help take care of them.  That is what I see are some single elderly aunts being taken care of by grand nieces and nephews. But if no one has kids...

At this point, ds doesn't want kids. He's not in a relationship, so it's not an issue at this point. I can see him finding someone who also doesn't want children and being quite content. They'll probably have cats instead. 

3 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Nursing homes and social workers. 

Probably this.

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

I do not expect my kids to care for me. I hope I may be able to move close and be involved in their lives, but I do not expect them to nurse me. That is what professional help is for. I know the toll eldercare takes on folks, and I do not want to burden my kids with it. That is not the reason I wanted kids.

 

Also this. DS understands that he is not obligated to care for me as I age. He currently lives with my mother (who is a very healthy, vibrant 85 year old). He's been best buddies with my mom  all of his life, but I've also told him that he is free to move if a job necessitates that. I doubt it will and I see him living in the house even after my mom passes away. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

54 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

When I married and then had my first two children in close succession, the older women in my family (not my mother—who had always had access to birth control in her marriage—I am talking grandparent and great-grandparent level of age older) pulled me aside and talked about the challenges physically I would face of having kids too close together. They talked about how freeing birth control was for my generation compared to what they had been through, and how to talk to my husband about “not wearing me out.”
 

Having lots of kids wasn’t considered a blessing by them, even though most had done it.

I still had more kids after that, but so far none of my children have any desire to ever have children, and I can’t say that I blame them. 

 

Yes—my great grandmother, born in 1912, could not fathom why my parents wanted a large family. She was the youngest of 12 and married into a family of 14, and thought birth control was the greatest invention ever.  She repeatedly advised my mom to stop having babies, that it would wear her out, that she should have stopped at two kids if she were smart, that all of us would have a terrible childhood.  It was a constant refrain from her.  She lived to see some of her great great grandchildren and remained appalled that her great grandkids also planned on 3+ children. When my cousin got pregnant in her teens and kept the baby, my great grandmother about gave up the ghost right there.  She was a product of her times and her mother had not had choices, and she had not had choices, but she could not fathom that given the choice to access birth control and/or termination, we all still wanted 3+ children or would carry teen pregnancies when we “didn’t have to.”

[J-rap]

It's interesting how times have changed, and I'm sure they'll continue changing.  But for my generation, no one seemed to even think about NOT having children.  It was just a natural path.  If there happened to be a random person who was married but chose not to have children, the older generation thought they were selfish. 

Now, I see many young married couples choosing to not have children, or at least not thinking of it as their main goal as a couple... but certainly not for selfish reasons.  They care about a lot of things ~ the planet, helping others, and maybe don't like the way the world is today and worry about bringing up children in it.   I think it's good that couples are realizing that they have a choice.

I do love the extended family structure.  I used to take it more lightly but have appreciated it more as I get older.  We've learned to put aside our differences when necessary, and always be there for each other and also for each other's kids.  My adult children know they always have many layers of support.

But, I know you can have that type of structure and support that's non-family as well.  Maybe it takes a little more work to cultivate, maybe not.

Re: old age.  I certainly don't expect my children to physically care for me when I'm old and infirm, but I know they'll make sure I'm being well taken care of wherever I end up.  

Edited July 26, 2022 by J-rap

[SKL]

Oh yeah, at least one of my grandmas used to have things to say about people who have a pile of kids close together.  I don't think she realized she was putting my mom down in the moment.

I can understand people who had fewer, harder choices being a bit surprised when the next generation, having more/better choices, opts out of those choices.  Like my mom, whose generation all got measles & mumps, was surprised some folks in my generation opt out of vaccines.

When I was a teen / young adult, my mom would often point out how many kids she had at my age (to point out that my life was relatively easy [and the least I could do was ____]).  One day I responded, "do you think it would be better for me to have __ kids right  now?"  "No," she said, and I don't think she tried that tack again.  😛

[Clarita]

3 hours ago, TexasProud said:

So for those of you encouraging your children not to have children, what will happen to them in old age?  Who will take care of them?  I mean the bulk of mom's care is coming to me, but my sister IS helping as much as she possibly can.  But I worry about my kids if they don't have their own kids to help them when they get older. I mean if oldest doesn't but the other two do, then their kids can help take care of them.  That is what I see are some single elderly aunts being taken care of by grand nieces and nephews. But if no one has kids...

There are issues with having no offspring and not a large enough younger generation to take care of older generation. There are issues with having too many people have too many kids. It's hard to find the perfect balance for sure. 

I volunteered at a convalescent home. I raise my kids so they know they need to visit me. They need me to be a part of their lives and I need them to be a part of mine.

[Sneezyone]

38 minutes ago, Clarita said:

There are issues with having no offspring and not a large enough younger generation to take care of older generation. There are issues with having too many people have too many kids. It's hard to find the perfect balance for sure. 

I volunteered at a convalescent home. I raise my kids so they know they need to visit me. They need me to be a part of their lives and I need them to be a part of mine.

Really?? I don't need or expect/demand my kids visit me/dh in our old age. I don't feel like they owe me anything. They didn't ask to come here. They're not in my debt for being born. I WANT them to WANT to connect because DH and I still have something valuable to offer and I WANT them to perceive/appreciate that value. DH and I, in terms of location/household amenities and advice, are planning with that in mind. We fully expect to be independent adults and I've told my kids to travel, and live full lives BEYOND us. We've told them to put us in a senior home together vs. turning their lives upside down. DH and I are planning to pay for it tho. We HOPE they'll visit. We WANT their company but I'm not gonna quibble if they want me in a home down the street for easy access for ex. I'd just as soon pack my bags and move in with my bestie if DH is gone and my kids aren't amenable.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Faith-manor]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

I do not expect my kids to care for me. I hope I may be able to move close and be involved in their lives, but I do not expect them to nurse me. That is what professional help is for. I know the toll eldercare takes on folks, and I do not want to burden my kids with it. That is not the reason I wanted kids.

Also, having children does not guarantee that they would be able to care for an elder parent; it may be impossible for a variety of reasons. Both my brother and my niece need care because of disabilities; my aunt outlived both her children; my DH and I live on a different continent and are not able to contribute except financially. 

This! I have had my health wrecked at times trying to be a staff to elderly relatives that need a staff. One person can't, and shouldn't do it all. 

My father was one of four, and by the time their mother had her stroke, the other three were disabled or had major health conditions that precluded them being involved in her care. My mom was in her very early 50's and very healthy so she tried to care for her. Two years later her health was wrecked, and that had now been passed on to me to deal with. Grandma went to a nursing home, but now with a brother that had had a heart attack and stroke, and a sister living in France, it falls on me, and the expectation that I will do this is HUGE! Absolutely gigantic. Dh is one of three, and the other two do not contribute to their mother's care, and live out of state. We are absolutely squashed, and all of this started while we still had kids in high school. I am soon concluding a two month of period of caring for DD while she recovers from a bad covid case that looked like it was going to blossom into long covid if she didn't get intensive rest.

I am wiped out. I can't keep going 24/7. Dh told his mother that from now on, except to driving her to her medical appointments, everything I have been doing for her MUST be hired done or doesn't get done. If she won't spend her money on that, then she has to go to a nursing home now. This week she hired two teen girls to do her housework weekly, and someone to cook her evening meals. I put my foot down a while back about all the lawn care because dh works so many hours that I was doing that too. Both mothers have hired people to take that over. Thankfully, mom is going through a period of being very stable and physically energetic so I am not having to worry about that.

Having gone through this, I will NEVER ask my kids to take care of me. I can't imagine putting them through that.

As for generation size, my mom was one of 3, and her mom was one of 17. Her father was 1 of 5. They had 3 children, and none of the 17 nor of the 5 of the previous generation had more than 3 children, and most had 2 with some never marrying and having any. My sons are committed to not having any children. My sister is not having children. My brother did have 5, 2 whom are not having children. 1 has 3 children. And the other 2 have 2 children each and took permanent measures to prevent more.

On dh's side his paternal grandfather was an only child, and his grandmother one of four. His father was one of 1 of 3 in the next generation, the eldest had 2 children, the middle had 2 children. Of those 7 grandchildren, 3 chose not to have any. The rest had anywhere from 4 to 1 a piece.

The vast majority of my son's friends have decided not to have children, and many have even chose sterilization already. I suspect that there will continue to be significant population decline in the US now that immigration is so tight, and reproductive rights have been infringed in such a way that proper prenatal care is not a thing in some regions.

[regentrude]

37 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I volunteered at a convalescent home. I raise my kids so they know they need to visit me. They need me to be a part of their lives and I need them to be a part of mine.

So you made it clear to your kids that they will be limited in their job options because you need them to visit you.

I am grateful that my parents never laid that guilt trip on me. Emigration is hard enough already.

Edited July 26, 2022 by regentrude

[TexasProud]

20 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Really?? I don't need or expect/demand my kids visit me/dh in our old age. I don't feel like they owe me anything. They didn't ask to come here. They're not in my debt for being born. I WANT them to WANT to connect because DH and I still have something valuable to offer and I WANT them to perceive/appreciate that value. DH and I, in terms of location/household amenities and advice, are planning with that in mind. We fully expect to be independent adults and I've told my kids, travel, and live full lives BEYOND our kids. We've told to put us in a senior home together vs. turning their lives upside down. DH and I are planning to pay for it tho. We HOPE they'll visit. We WANT their company but I'm not gonna quibble if they want me in a home down the street for easy access for ex. I'd just as soon pack my bags and move in with my bestie if DH is gone and my kids aren't amenable.

I doubt she is going to demand.  She has trained them to see the need, which unfortunately many just stick them in there and then don't think about them again. NOT ALL!! And yes, there has to be boundaries.

But I think we have missed something.  I took my daughter to see my husband's grandmothers from the time she was 6 until she was 10.  The boys, too, but they were in high school at that point and had classes and they just were not as flexible.  But my daughter and I went and spent several mornings a week in the memory care unit.  Sometimes we sang hymns with them.  Sometimes we played balloon volleyball.  Sometimes she would give a violin concert. Sometimes we just went around and visited.  Even though they weren't "all there," my daughter got so much wisdom from them.  Plus, there is something about seeing people as valuable just because they exist.  But so many stories all of them.  My life was enriched for the years we did that.  I think there is something inherently wrong with the young being shielded from old age. Yes it is hard. Yes, it is undignified sometimes. But that is life. Not sure if I am making any sense.  

But yes, my mom told me what you told me and what you said is pretty much what I told my kids.  However, I have a feeling, my example will serve as an example for them.  Because, to be honest, I treated my dad, my husband's grandmother, and now my mom the way I would like someone to treat me: with dignity, respect and love.  I hope they will do the same.  But again, their life. And again, I am NOT saying you need to be there 24/7 and have no boundaries.