Breastfeeding isn't free op-ed

[Farrar]

Did this get discussed? It was being shared a lot in my circles yesterday.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2022/breastfeeding-cost-time-money/

I appreciate the effort here to quantify the cost of the labor of parenthood, specifically of breastfeeding. And the effort to point out how much parenting costs us and how women disproportionately bear that cost and how there's also a lot of privilege in being able to absorb that cost for a family.

But also... the vast majority of that time cost is sunk whether you breastfeed or formula feed. It doesn't matter. Like yeah, formula feeding is a little more time efficient. But you can't just hand a baby a bottle and leave them there. It takes human time and labor to feed all babies no matter what they eat. Plus, feeding is one of the key ways that you bond with a baby. So again, even for parents going back to work, they typically want to/need to spend bonding time with their babies and this is one of the ways it happens. Formula feeding shaves some of that time off, but not all. And then if a mom isn't staying home, but returns to work, then someone else is feeding that baby and their labor costs money too. 

Basically... babies are just time consuming and expensive no matter how you parent. So despite my appreciation that putting a monetary value on some of these tasks can help us appreciate them in some ways... I wonder if they also weirdly devalue and imply that you can make them more efficient in ways you just can't. It's hard to fully put a price tag on what babies take out of a family because it's a lot no matter what parenting style you choose or have chosen for you by circumstance. But also, you can't put a price tag on babies period. And this is why new parents need support and programs and so forth. It's not... formula or breastfeeding, it's just... babies are expensive and parents need support if they're going to have babies. Which they hopefully will, by the way. I think things like this that quantify those costs aren't encouraging any new potential moms to dive in.

[Melissa Louise]

It's just yet another volley in the anti breastfeeding wars. 

Breast milk should be counted in GDP. Women should be compensated for their breastfeeding labour. It isn't free. 

 

[Katy]

The hardest period of my life was trying to breastfeed then exclusively pump for a preemie who’d had severe jaundice. I chose to supplement with bottles to improve the labs enough to stay out of the NICU (which worked, partly because she was born just after midnight so we had an extra day in the hospital),  but it ruined her latch and she always preferred a bottle. My mom was a la leche nazi and I think she still doesn’t believe that jaundice can kill a baby.  Her harassment left me an emotional wreck. Only my OBGYN talking about how she had just been to a conference discussing a correlation between exclusive breastfeeding and autism and that it may be either starvation or chemical exposure did I finally feel okay supplementing. Pumping exclusively when you have other kids and try very hard not to parentify the oldest is extremely difficult. 
 

ETA: my OB was trying to remove the mom guilt, she still encouraged breastfeeding. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Katy

[Melissa Louise]

One post in and we're at breastfeeding Nazis. 

No, we can't discuss this issue. Because of inflammatory language like that. 

[Terabith]

I love breastfeeding.  I am super duper committed to breastfeeding.  I breast fed my youngest till she was 3.5.  

Breastfeeding my oldest almost killed them though and is one of the hardest things I've done.  

I was incredibly committed, and I took classes before oldest was born.  I went to La Leche meetings.  I was all in.  And then they just couldn't figure it out, and they couldn't stay awake, and the fewer calories they took in, the harder it was to keep them awake.  

Bottle feeding was exponentially easier.  So much easier.  So much faster.  They could drink a bottle before they fell asleep, because bottles are easier than breasts.  I exclusively pumped for six months, until I got pregnant again and supply tanked and I just couldn't produce enough milk with the pump to feed oldest.  We switched to formula at six months.  

I mean, yes, babies are definitely time consuming to feed, but I would say bottle feeding took at least two thirds less time than nursing.  (Not counting pumping time. That took massive amounts of time and labor and was hard.)

[Farrar]

38 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

It's just yet another volley in the anti breastfeeding wars. 

Breast milk should be counted in GDP. Women should be compensated for their breastfeeding labour. It isn't free. 

 

Yes. It struck me as very defeatist and anti-breastfeeding in this weird way.

Like, yes, some women can't and some don't choose to. And that's actually fine! This isn't about that. And quantifying that labor is maybe necessary. But then... also... babies take the majority of that time no matter what. Like, you can't work during the first few weeks of a baby's life in the vast majority of circumstances no matter how you feed them. And the labor is worth it to society in the long run for the families who do choose it.

[KSera]

41 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

It's just yet another volley in the anti breastfeeding wars.

I've noticed they have flared up hard recently. I thought somehow we had mostly moved on from that, so it's disappointing to see it so strong again.

FWIW, it's weird for me to hear that some people find bottle feeding faster and/or easier. I had one child with medical issues that required me to do that for awhile and I found it incredibly difficult and stressful. And the added stress of having to make sure I'd packed enough of it when we went out of the house and keeping it cold and worrying about what if the car broke down and I didn't have enough with me, what if there was a recall for contamination, etc, etc. Wow, that was just a really stressful thing to me when I couldn't just breastfeed that one.

[Terabith]

Exclusively pumping takes massive resources.  It really requires a very good pump, as well as bottles, and lots of freezer space. I couldn't build up a stash of milk, despite producing enough for triplets, because we had a tiny apartment freezer.  We used breast milk for all kinds of random things:  coffee, cereal, baked goods, fed it to older child when I was nursing younger one, and I still threw away a ton of milk.  

I do not think I could have exclusively pumped if the child who needed it had not been my first born, because it kept me tied to a pump, and because of breast size, my hands full, for more than four hours a day.  

[Farrar]

4 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I mean, yes, babies are definitely time consuming to feed, but I would say bottle feeding took at least two thirds less time than nursing.  (Not counting pumping time. That took massive amounts of time and labor and was hard.)

But do you feel like the babies took that much less labor time that you could have worked more with no additional labor support because you formula fed? Or maybe you can't really compare? I just think... okay, it took less time, which is nice. But then did the babies themselves take so much less time that you could work and also not hire help in some form? I just don't see this as being a useful quantification in that sense. Parents who go back to work go back to work and have to come up with ways to pay for care. Parents who don't, don't, and lose their income whether they bf or formula feed.

[Farrar]

Just now, Terabith said:

Exclusively pumping takes massive resources.  It really requires a very good pump, as well as bottles, and lots of freezer space. I couldn't build up a stash of milk, despite producing enough for triplets, because we had a tiny apartment freezer.  We used breast milk for all kinds of random things:  coffee, cereal, baked goods, fed it to older child when I was nursing younger one, and I still threw away a ton of milk.  

I do not think I could have exclusively pumped if the child who needed it had not been my first born, because it kept me tied to a pump, and because of breast size, my hands full, for more than four hours a day.  

I don't think anyone should be pressured to exclusively pump long term. It seems like the worst of all possible worlds, honestly. The benefits of breast milk are so modest by themselves. It can't possibly be worth it unless it's a parent's absolute hill to die on or unless it's part of a transition to actually being able to bf.

[Terabith]

Just now, Farrar said:

But do you feel like the babies took that much less labor time that you could have worked more with no additional labor support because you formula fed? Or maybe you can't really compare? I just think... okay, it took less time, which is nice. But then did the babies themselves take so much less time that you could work and also not hire help in some form? I just don't see this as being a useful quantification in that sense. Parents who go back to work go back to work and have to come up with ways to pay for care. Parents who don't, don't, and lose their income whether they bf or formula feed.

My oldest took a lot less time in general, beyond the pumping time, than my youngest, but I think that was largely personality?  My oldest was the world's easiest baby.  They were incredibly sleepy.  Incredibly easy going.   My youngest was......not.  She did not sleep more than two hours at a stretch until she was four years old.  There is no way, if she'd been the first child, that we would have had another 17 months later, and I'm not entirely sure we would have had a second child at all.  

I did work when youngest was the only baby, but of course they required day care.  I mean, there's no getting around CHILD CARE costs for an infant.  That's just sunk into the nature of a baby.  I probably could have had a job working from home with oldest without child care, for the first 9 months or so.  There's no way I could have with youngest, but again, that has more to do with the fact that oldest child slept an incredible amount and was so easy and easy going.  But I don't think that's necessarily the case because of formula, and I think child care costs are just inherent in having a baby.  

[Farrar]

It just seems like there's already a lot of straw man arguments here. Some people can't breastfeed. Um, okay, no one said they had to? Some people are nasty about it. Um, yeah, but I'm really not trying to be. Sometimes breastfeeding takes really, really longer because of particular issues. Again, yeah. And sometimes formula feeding does. Babies and bodies are all individual.

Just... keeping in mind that feeding is part of bonding with and caring for a baby... it's just all part of a piece to me. I don't think you can totally pull out the costs for anything other than the products associated with it.

[Brittany1116]

I need to read the article and replies after dinner. I only had 2 kids and I did it all: BF and FF and EP. My quick reply to OP's last paragraph: I concur.

[Katy]

 IME, bottles were much easier & faster than breastfeeding, not to mention babies sleep through the night much faster. I know that isn’t true for everyone. 

Breastfeeding never came easy to me. 

Exclusively pumping was awful.

The hardest babies to feed have NG tubes. 

[Clarita]

I mean there is so much variation in the breastfeeding/formula feeding/overall feeding journey of babies. None of the things people say about breastfeeding or formula feeding is true for everyone.  

My youngest could not for the life of her figure out how to bottle feed. She give the nipple a few licks, make some I want milk noises and wonder why milk wasn't squirting out at her. 

47 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I don't think anyone should be pressured to exclusively pump long term. It seems like the worst of all possible worlds, honestly.

I exclusively pumped for my oldest for a month. Reasoning, it was more painful not to. Yes it is worst between breastfeeding and formula feeding. 

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Breast milk should be counted in GDP. Women should be compensated for their breastfeeding labour. It isn't free. 

Or perhaps we should realize that the world's most important jobs are valued on a different scale.

[Lecka]

I agree with the critique, but I saw it and took it more as — some people are really unaware and think breastfeeding is so simple and easy.   For someone with very little knowledge I think it would be informative.  
 

More on-topic, I read something years ago about the military.  On one hand, it’s a job done for pay.  On the other hand, it’s this patriotic thing.  
 

If it’s a job for pay, you want to be paid fairly and have decent working conditions.

If it’s this patriotic thing, you want to make a ton of sacrifices, never complain, and never care about things like fair pay and decent working conditions.

 

I think this about a lot of things where capitalism and valuing things by money doesn’t translate into value.

But also “it’s a job” or “no it’s not just a job.”  Like with teaching, nursing, off the top of my head.  
 

The article I read was in a magazine and written by a sociologist I think, it was a good article.  It was talking about how there is a conflict between seeing it either way or both ways, because there are ways it is both, and ways seeing it one way or the other selectively can cause problems.

 

 

[Murphy101]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

Did this get discussed? It was being shared a lot in my circles yesterday.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2022/breastfeeding-cost-time-money/

I appreciate the effort here to quantify the cost of the labor of parenthood, specifically of breastfeeding. And the effort to point out how much parenting costs us and how women disproportionately bear that cost and how there's also a lot of privilege in being able to absorb that cost for a family.

But also... the vast majority of that time cost is sunk whether you breastfeed or formula feed. It doesn't matter. Like yeah, formula feeding is a little more time efficient. But you can't just hand a baby a bottle and leave them there. It takes human time and labor to feed all babies no matter what they eat. Plus, feeding is one of the key ways that you bond with a baby. So again, even for parents going back to work, they typically want to/need to spend bonding time with their babies and this is one of the ways it happens. Formula feeding shaves some of that time off, but not all. And then if a mom isn't staying home, but returns to work, then someone else is feeding that baby and their labor costs money too. 

Basically... babies are just time consuming and expensive no matter how you parent. So despite my appreciation that putting a monetary value on some of these tasks can help us appreciate them in some ways... I wonder if they also weirdly devalue and imply that you can make them more efficient in ways you just can't. It's hard to fully put a price tag on what babies take out of a family because it's a lot no matter what parenting style you choose or have chosen for you by circumstance. But also, you can't put a price tag on babies period. And this is why new parents need support and programs and so forth. It's not... formula or breastfeeding, it's just... babies are expensive and parents need support if they're going to have babies. Which they hopefully will, by the way. I think things like this that quantify those costs aren't encouraging any new potential moms to dive in.

I don’t think the goal was to encourage moms to opt in. I think the goal was to point out that breastfeeding comes at a high price that only mothers can pay - and social policies should recognize that cost.  And I agree with it. 

Breastfeeding isn’t free.  There’s a reason so few women choose it here and even more reason why so few continue past the first few weeks.  The solution to that isn’t bottles of extremely expensive government subsidized formula for all. It’s changing ridiculous social policies that penalize the basic needs of biology in women and infants. 

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

FWIW, it's weird for me to hear that some people find bottle feeding faster and/or easier.

It was for me by far.

[MercyA]

I didn't read the article as anti-breastfeeding. Is anyone really anti-breast feeding? Honest question. I know some people are anti-public breastfeeding. And I know decades ago it was something that many women just didn't do. But do people actively and publicly discourage it as a practice now? What are their reasons? 

I found the article a welcome dose of realism in a world that says that breastfeeding is easy and cheap. 

[Farrar]

25 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t think the goal was to encourage moms to opt in. I think the goal was to point out that breastfeeding comes at a high price that only mothers can pay - and social policies should recognize that cost.  And I agree with it. 

Breastfeeding isn’t free.  There’s a reason so few women choose it here and even more reason why so few continue past the first few weeks.  The solution to that isn’t bottles of extremely expensive government subsidized formula for all. It’s changing ridiculous social policies that penalize the basic needs of biology in women and infants. 

I agree that was the goal. And with your larger point there.

But also, I felt that some of the monetary calculations were a bit silly. Much of this level of cost is borne no matter how you choose to feed. And some of the framing seemed to subtly undermine or discourage breastfeeding or make it seem more elitist, like the whole special tea thing. No matter what choices you make, babies are expensive and time consuming. This seemed to imply that bf'ing is exponentially more so and I don't fully buy that. Bf'ing precludes handing off a large portion of that labor, but the labor doesn't vanish. And both poor and wealthy women and everyone in between choose to bf. Circumstances are individual, but also... bf'ing is not elite. Formula is not impoverished. Lots of women choose both at all sorts of levels of income. Because again, babies are just a series of expensive choices. And sometimes bf'ing turns out to be extra expensive because it involves a lot of specialists and difficulty and giving up high salaries. And sometimes formula turns out to be expensive with a baby who has special needs or allergies. It's just... individual.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Farrar

[Melissa in Australia]

3 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I didn't read the article as anti-breastfeeding. Is anyone really anti-breast feeding? Honest question. I know some people are anti-public breastfeeding. And I know decades ago it was something that many women just didn't do. But do people actively and publicly discourage it as a practice now? What are their reasons? 

I found the article a welcome dose of realism in a world that says that breastfeeding is easy and cheap. 

My sil is anti breastfeeding . Told me to my face that I was like a pig when I was feeding my baby. I have always been so glad that all my in-laws live on the other side of the world.

[lmrich]

The article was interesting. I can't imagine trying to keep  up with all the hours  involved. 
Personally, I enjoyed breastfeeding. I do remember after my first baby, I would sit in the rocking chair and nurse him and have sweat drip down - could not believe how much work my body was doing. I know I needed to eat more while breastfeeding than I did when pregnant (some weeks) so she could add that to her expenses, too. 

[MercyA]

3 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

My sil is anti breastfeeding . Told me to my face that I was like a pig when I was feeding my baby. I have always been so glad that all my in-laws live on the other side of the world.

That is crazy. I'm so sorry.

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

FWIW, it's weird for me to hear that some people find bottle feeding faster and/or easier. I had one child with medical issues that required me to do that for awhile and I found it incredibly difficult and stressful. And the added stress of having to make sure I'd packed enough of it when we went out of the house and keeping it cold and worrying about what if the car broke down and I didn't have enough with me, what if there was a recall for contamination, etc, etc. Wow, that was just a really stressful thing to me when I couldn't just breastfeed that one.

I agree. Neither my experience breastfeeding nor my experience bottle feeding was smooth, but once we were up and running, breastfeeding was easier for these and other reasons. That's with me nursing a kid for 40+ hours per week (which we now know was likely due to a hypermobile jaw, so he couldn't feed efficiently even though he was super quick to catch on to how to nurse). 

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

Exclusively pumping takes massive resources.  It really requires a very good pump, as well as bottles, and lots of freezer space. I couldn't build up a stash of milk, despite producing enough for triplets, because we had a tiny apartment freezer.  We used breast milk for all kinds of random things:  coffee, cereal, baked goods, fed it to older child when I was nursing younger one, and I still threw away a ton of milk.  

I do not think I could have exclusively pumped if the child who needed it had not been my first born, because it kept me tied to a pump, and because of breast size, my hands full, for more than four hours a day.  

I agree with the person that said that exclusive pumping is the worst of both worlds--I did it for a few days with the kid I ended up bottle feeding. 

[Ausmumof3]

I didn’t read the article because it wasn’t free either 😂

[Catwoman]

48 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

My sil is anti breastfeeding . Told me to my face that I was like a pig when I was feeding my baby. I have always been so glad that all my in-laws live on the other side of the world.

That’s horrible!!! 🤬

I never had the slightest interest in breastfeeding, but it’s so weird that anyone would think there was anything wrong with it — particularly another woman!

Your SIL seems to have some serious issues… 

[Ausmumof3]

58 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I didn't read the article as anti-breastfeeding. Is anyone really anti-breast feeding? Honest question. I know some people are anti-public breastfeeding. And I know decades ago it was something that many women just didn't do. But do people actively and publicly discourage it as a practice now? What are their reasons? 

I found the article a welcome dose of realism in a world that says that breastfeeding is easy and cheap. 

Not saying there’s a specific anti breastfeeding vibe to the article that I didn’t read, but I think it’s a bit naive to think that breastfeeding is not sometimes discouraged and extended breastfeeding is definitely discouraged. Plenty of negative comments, generally from men about it. I personally had two separate doctors tell me my baby was getting no benefit from breastfeeding at 18months. And that’s trained medical professionals so you can imagine the state of things among the general population. 
 

secondly formula manufacture is big business. There are always going to be vested interests in promoting formula feeding. We need to make sure there’s equal funding available to promote and help breastfeeding to counteract that.

[Ting Tang]

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

I don't think anyone should be pressured to exclusively pump long term. It seems like the worst of all possible worlds, honestly. The benefits of breast milk are so modest by themselves. It can't possibly be worth it unless it's a parent's absolute hill to die on or unless it's part of a transition to actually being able to bf.

I EPd for all four, one ended midway through babyhood due to illness.  But I did it long term for others.   It was hard, but I did save money on formula.  I also delayed solids for babies 2-4.  Not because I was hardcore about anything, but it made life easier, lol.  You just need to do what is best for you. There are many times I wanted to quit, but I couldn't bring myself to do it. Nowadays I think little about how my kids were fed as babies. The child who got the most formula is smart and healthy.  I am just glad it was available when we needed it.

[Dmmetler]

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

Exclusively pumping takes massive resources.  It really requires a very good pump, as well as bottles, and lots of freezer space. I couldn't build up a stash of milk, despite producing enough for triplets, because we had a tiny apartment freezer.  We used breast milk for all kinds of random things:  coffee, cereal, baked goods, fed it to older child when I was nursing younger one, and I still threw away a ton of milk.  

I do not think I could have exclusively pumped if the child who needed it had not been my first born, because it kept me tied to a pump, and because of breast size, my hands full, for more than four hours a day.  

I EP’d and pumped for about 2 years before my supply just plain stopped supplying. It definitely wasn’t easy, and I have to be honest, it was less for L and more for me. At first, it was that after a highly medicalized, high risk pregnancy where my sole job was to lie on my side, not stress out, and gestate, and I was on a ton of drugs which would have made it hard to do anythung requiring much thought, I needed to do something right. And I had a baby who was a preemie and slept a lot at first, which helped. Breastfeeding was the one thing I could do right, and when that failed, I think the nurse who brought in a breast pump did so as much for my emotional state as for the baby. Then, one of my friends has a child diagnosed with an immunodeficiency, and the immunologist suggested she look into a breast milk bank. At the time, L was starting solids, and I was still producing a ton and had a freezer full, so I then fed her child for the next year and a half, which, again, was emotionally beneficial to me, as well as to my friend’s child. About the time L was 2, my supply just stopped, almost overnight. 
 

Definitely not easy, cheap or something that would have worked if I had been working unless I had a job I could sit at a computer attached to a pump during. My insurance paid for a really, really good double pump and multiple kits to go with it, so I could run one load of pumping parts and bottles a day. I had a good sized freezer. I had a husband who was able to work from home quite a bit, so when I was pumping, he could handle baby emergencies. And, I had a baby who became mobile late and talked early, and loved books and being read to (and eventually read early as well), so my kid’s asynchronous development and neurodiversity played into making it possible. So, after having nothing else go right, it was kind of like God wanted me to win that one. 
 

If I could just take a pill and relactate immediately, I would probably volunteer to pump again given the formula shortage. I still have my pump in the closet. Because while it’s a pain, I have the flexibility to do so, and it was emotionally fulfilling to me.  

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

Circumstances are individual, but also... bf'ing is not elite. Formula is not impoverished.

Growing up in Asia, formula and powdered milk was regarded as something the poorer people could afford and children would be able to get free milk powder from the government. The wealthier people would be able to afford fresh milk (about US$9/gallon). Also breastfeeding was considered something that the richer folks could afford to do because poor people need to work and hopefully have elderly relatives provide free babysitting. I gave my mid range electric breast pump away to a good friend who could not afford one and needs to go back to work. People would assume my husband’s pay is high for me to be able to be a SAHM. 

[Sunshine State Sue]

I liked the article.  It was her response to the  “TRY BREASTFEEEDING! It’s free and available on demand.” “God literally designed mothers to feed their babies.” ideas.

I liked the article because it's a dose of reality.  I wish I had understood the reality of breastfeeding beforehand.  I think I would have been better prepared and less disappointed/discouraged.

I don't know if I had "low" supply or if ds was just a slow nurser.  I spent 30min nursing every hour for months and months.  I went back to work 2 days/wk at 8 weeks post partum.  Pumping was a total drag.  I did it for 1 year.  I could never get more than 2oz at a time.  I pumped 7 days/wk in order to get enough for those 2 days/wk I worked.  Some formula was used, and I felt like a failure because of it.

OTOH, I loved not having to worry about bringing formula with me anywhere.  I breastfed anywhere and everywhere as discreetly as I possibly could.

Breastfeeding and pumping takes time and that's not a job that can be given to someone else like formula feeding can.  Before reality hit me, I thought it would be wonderful bonding with my baby time, not bored again sitting on the couch time.

 

 

[maize]

As someone who struggles with executive function, the thought of bottle feeding feels far more difficult than breastfeeding.

I was fortunate to not have supply issues, but the length of time my kids breastfed (most for at least three years) had as much to do with it being an easy, no-prep, no clean-up way of feeding them as anything else.

[Lecka]

I went through WIC stuff while I was pregnant because I was afraid of having to pay for formula for twins.  I also heard horror stories about $$$ specialty formulas being more expensive for twins.  Then only later did I find out — if we had that situation our insurance would have paid for the specialty formula?  Or people meant you get a doctor note and take that to the WIC office.

It ended up that I didn’t need formula for them.  
 

However at the time, they didn’t have extra food for breastfeeding moms on WIC (iirc).  Now they do.  
 

I am glad they did that, I think it’s much more equitable.  
 

I just did a quick Google and the top result said 47% of infants are receiving formula through WIC.

 

It’s one of those things where I think it really changes the price calculations, to either be a burden to pay for, or to be going through WIC and dealing with that.  
 

Edit:  my understanding is the WIC income limits are the same in the whole country, and that must be something that is not fair between higher and lower cost parts of the country.  

Edited June 2, 2022 by Lecka

[Farrar]

8 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Growing up in Asia, formula and powdered milk was regarded as something the poorer people could afford and children would be able to get free milk powder from the government. The wealthier people would be able to afford fresh milk (about US$9/gallon). Also breastfeeding was considered something that the richer folks could afford to do because poor people need to work and hopefully have elderly relatives provide free babysitting. I gave my mid range electric breast pump away to a good friend who could not afford one and needs to go back to work. People would assume my husband’s pay is high for me to be able to be a SAHM. 

Yeah. I mean, there are ways in which it can become associated with poorer or wealthier lifestyles - some of which are systemic, others of which are cultural associations. Both feeding approaches. At one point, formula was considered the more wealthy thing here and now it's definitely switched. I think there are ways that poverty encourages formula and wealth encourages bf'ing right now specifically in the US. But not entirely. 

[kbutton]

3 minutes ago, Lecka said:

However at the time, they didn’t have extra food for breastfeeding moms on WIC (iirc).  Now they do.  

I got WIC 17.5 years ago when I wasn't even BFing anymore. It didn't last long--they messed up our qualification, so I missed out on some of my eligible time. I got baby checks and checks for me. I think maybe it was six months for the mom, and I was near the six month mark when we got everything straightened out. I think I got a month or so of checks for myself at that point. 

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, maize said:

As someone who struggles with executive function, the thought of bottle feeding feels far more difficult than breastfeeding.

I can see how it would seem that way, but for me--also someone who struggles with executive function--breastfeeding was so much more stressful and difficult. It was always--which side was last, what time did I do it, how long did I do it, when should I pump, how long should I pump, how much should I freeze. People were telling me to "just relax" (just like they did when I couldn't conceive!), people were telling me to drink more water, I tried special teas, I tried special diets, and on and on, and all the time my baby was rarely content. 😞 

And then, oh, the simplicity and wonder and glory of bottles. I knew how exactly many ounces she was getting and how often to feed her and she grew chubby and happy and slept well. I was more relaxed. She was more relaxed. We enjoyed our feeding times. I could feed her a bottle anywhere. Others could feed her too. The dishwasher made short work of cleaning the supplies and the bottle warmer heated the bottles to a perfect temperature quickly and easily. 

I thank God for formula. 

[Melissa Louise]

5 hours ago, EKS said:

Or perhaps we should realize that the world's most important jobs are valued on a different scale.

Sure, when we live in a world where love pays the rent. 

[LucyStoner]

If breastfeeding goes well, formula feeding isn’t significantly less time (though the work of formula feeding can be split among caregivers in a way nursing can’t).  If breastfeeding is challenging, formula feeding is vastly more efficient.  Trying to breastfeed when your supply isn’t there is so incredibly time consuming that bottle feeding was a legit vacation by comparison.  

Americans can’t wonder why breastfeeding rates are low when women have minimal, if ANY, paid leave after birth and when staying out of the workforce for family caregiving is a financial decision that reverberates for literal decades and is quite possibly the largest reason so many elderly women fall into poverty.  

I was back at work three weeks after a c-section and NICU stay when my older son was born.  Motivated to return to my career?  No, I was motivated to eat and pay the rent.  At the time I was working admin support at an non-profit whose mission it was to support parents of newborns, I sh!t you not.  But I wasn’t eligible for even unpaid leave because I hadn’t been at my job for a year.  Even if I had been eligible for my employers paid leave, I believe that it was 8 weeks.  Because of our own savings and assets, I was able to stay home a year when my younger son was born.  Spoiler alert: breastfeeding worked with him.  
 

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

WIC has always included food for pregnant and postpartum women who were breastfeeding.  It was expanded to cover postpartum women who weren’t breastfeeding within a few years of the programs initial passage.    

It now also covers 6 months for women after they have miscarried.  

[prairiewindmomma]

One thing the article doesn't discuss is the work "penalty" women may pay if they pump at work. You are sometimes seen as being less committed and less "available" in your job.  You miss out on meetings or water cooler discussions because you are off pumping. If you are hourly, you may miss out on pay because while they must allow pumping time, they don't have to pay you for it. You may take heat asking for a separate fridge or sharing space in the work fridge for milk storage. You may have dry-cleaning bills if you are as uncoordinated as I am with stopping pumping. You may go through a bazillion microwave sterilizer bags for pump parts. 

I rarely see discussion about this aspect of things....the conversation is usually simplified down to the usual mommy wars with a side snark about WIC. Frankly I wish we'd see more "Fed is Best" discussion. Women don't need to tear down other women....parenting is hard enough as it is.

[Arcadia]

3 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

One thing the article doesn't discuss is the work "penalty" women may pay if they pump at work. You are sometimes seen as being less committed and less "available" in your job. 

@MercyA@Melissa in Australia my MIL is pro breastfeeding when daughter and DILs are on paid maternity leave because of the savings in not having to buy formula. She is anti-pumping at the workplace because she feels that would jeopardize performance bonus and promotions (in-laws treat their children as money trees). She is also pro feeding grandchildren table foods early because they are cheaper than formula.

[Murphy101]

4 hours ago, lmrich said:

The article was interesting. I can't imagine trying to keep  up with all the hours  involved. 

For people worried they aren’t supplying enough, or have other issues, the modern use of phone trackers is very helpful and reassuring. 

Bottle feeding was no brainer easy peasy compared to breastfeeding for me.  Because I didn’t have to do it!  Y’all. Formula fed babies stay full like double or more time. That’s why so many of them of can sleep 4-6 hours straight at night even at 2 months old and the breastfeeding moms feel like zombies from still feeding every 2-3 hours.  They need less bottles bc they are full faster and for longer. And did I forget to mention that even when they do need the bottle it doesn’t have to be mom that gives it?  Yep. Anyone can do it. Heck probably 70% or more prop the bottle on a pillow or whatever. (Yes I know it shouldn’t be done and I didn’t do it but good luck finding any daycare that doesn’t and most moms do it even though they get told not to in parenting classes and by pediatricians.

And many daycares here won’t take babies that have breast milk bottles.  Because they can’t promise to keep it the right temp. But powered formula can be mixed up in a few minutes and never goes bad.  And the daycares are set up on the timing of formula, and breast milk fed babies often need fed more often.

Breastfeeding is absolutely an elite option here. I don’t know anyone very low income the even thinks to breastfeed. In 27 years of motherhood, I’ve only met 2 women who kept a career and breastfed.

While I do think “fed is best”. I also think women are pushed to bottle feed regardless of what may be best for either mother or child bc It’s the modern day version of birthing in the planting field with a few good squats and then keeping on like it’s no big deal idealized stereotype of peasant stock that our lack of family social policy allows to be a workforce expectation.

In countries with more breastfeeding and a lot less formula pushing - they tend to have better social policies for new mothers. Even in really awful in most otherwise ways countries. 

[Ellie]

8 hours ago, Farrar said:

I don't think anyone should be pressured to exclusively pump long term. It seems like the worst of all possible worlds, honestly. The benefits of breast milk are so modest by themselves. It can't possibly be worth it unless it's a parent's absolute hill to die on or unless it's part of a transition to actually being able to bf.

I never pumped. Or supplemented in any way. Yay me.

[Dmmetler]

15 hours ago, Farrar said:

I don't think anyone should be pressured to exclusively pump long term. It seems like the worst of all possible worlds, honestly. The benefits of breast milk are so modest by themselves. It can't possibly be worth it unless it's a parent's absolute hill to die on or unless it's part of a transition to actually being able to bf.

I don't think anyone starts out with the idea of exclusively pumping long term. It's either nurse at home and pump at work, or thsr you start pumping because the baby can't nurse, and then the baby never catches on, so "a few days" turns into months or years. My insurance finally bought the high end hospital grade pump after 3 months. 

[maize]

8 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

WIC has always included food for pregnant and postpartum women who were breastfeeding.  It was expanded to cover postpartum women who weren’t breastfeeding within a few years of the programs initial passage.    

It now also covers 6 months for women after they have miscarried.  

It includes more food now than it used to as well; it was pretty limited when my oldest was a baby.

[maize]

9 hours ago, MercyA said:

I can see how it would seem that way, but for me--also someone who struggles with executive function--breastfeeding was so much more stressful and difficult. It was always--which side was last, what time did I do it, how long did I do it

Yeah, everyone has a different experience.

I never, ever tracked which side or what time or how long.

They always wanted me to track in the hospital during my postpartum stays; I just made stuff up. 

But again, that's me being home full time, zero supply issues, and babies who liked to eat. A lot. There was never any question about whether they were getting enough; several of them gained a pound a week on average in the first few months.

I did have occasional latch problems to deal with, and crazy sore nipples at the beginning with each of them; I also never found breastfeeding comfortable. But easy, yes, for me it it was.

[lmrich]

So glad WIC will pay extra for bf moms. Twenty years ago... my infant was hospitalized and because I was bf mom they fed me and made sure I had a bed in her room. I can't imagine if you were bottle feeding that they would make you leave to go get meals.. but that is what it sounded like. 

 

[Farrar]

11 hours ago, maize said:

As someone who struggles with executive function, the thought of bottle feeding feels far more difficult than breastfeeding.

I was fortunate to not have supply issues, but the length of time my kids breastfed (most for at least three years) had as much to do with it being an easy, no-prep, no clean-up way of feeding them as anything else.

I don't usually struggle overmuch with executive functioning, but I certainly did when I had two infants to care for on very little sleep!

I'm with you in that I also just found everything about bf so much simpler once I had supply and everything was settled after those first few weeks. I never had to think about it. I never had to worry. I never had to question anything about feeding. It was so much easier. When I stayed with my brother after his little one was born and they were exclusively doing formula, the bottles! The washing! Oy my. It would have been the straw that broke the camel's back for me.

But everyone's straw is different and being trapped between bf'ing babies on the sofa off and on all day with just the TV and book would have been someone else's.

[denarii]

38 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I don't usually struggle overmuch with executive functioning, but I certainly did when I had two infants to care for on very little sleep!

I'm with you in that I also just found everything about bf so much simpler once I had supply and everything was settled after those first few weeks. I never had to think about it. I never had to worry. I never had to question anything about feeding. It was so much easier. When I stayed with my brother after his little one was born and they were exclusively doing formula, the bottles! The washing! Oy my. It would have been the straw that broke the camel's back for me.

But everyone's straw is different and being trapped between bf'ing babies on the sofa off and on all day with just the TV and book would have been someone else's.

Yes! I triple fed my twins for 4 weeks before I managed to get them ebfing and it was glorious. Ebfing tandem saved my sanity. Pumping, bottles, formula, etc nearly broke me. 

But as a Canadian I get 12-18 months maternity leave. If I had to return to work at 6wks and pump I would have switched to formula.