Shooting at a Texas elementary school

[DawnM]

7 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

It's really not OK for people to blame mental illness when the individual who committed this crime was allowed to legally purchase a gun. He had the money and the law on his side. He had no diagnosis on file to prevent access. He was not required to undergo a background check that would prevent a purchase even if he had been adjudicated too ill to own a gun. Ammosexuals don't get to use mental illness to excuse the heinous mass murders of every legal gun owner when they do not vote for withholding gun sales from anyone, ever. The hypocrisy of it all.

Ammosexuals?   Ok, I have never heard that term before.

And I watched a piece on racial profiling and they said that when a white person mass murders they automatically say mental illness, but when a black person does the same thing, they don't use those terms.   It is like they are excusing the white person by saying they couldn't help it, but the black person is just evil.    It was eye opening.

[TexasProud]

Yes, absolutely we need to work on the gun laws. No question.

But I have another question, not quite sure how the boy got in there. When I taught, we had only one entrance and it was locked. You had to let the people in. My brother-in-law is head of security for a very large school district in Texas and tis is hammered home. They even do regular checks and have people try to get through ( and yes, sometimes they do) and it is really hammered into their heads not to. And this young man had body armor and guns in clear view if I understand. So just wondering what protocols this building had in place. Because I thought it was a statewide mandate to only have one locked entrance.

Yes, sad, we shouldn't have to do this. But we do. Just what ran through my head.

[Lady Florida.]

8 hours ago, Joker2 said:

One of my dc’s high schools in Florida was mostly all outside. There were no hallways because there were just a bunch of different buildings with classrooms and each had an outside door. There was no way to have any security other than the one armed officer they had.

That describes most schools in Florida, not just high schools. It's what made finding the Parkland shooter so difficult.

[lauraw4321]

6 hours ago, Shelydon said:

Guns exist.  How do you make 'no guns at all' happen? That seems like it would then be an increase in criminal use of guns that are imported illegally or stolen from the armed forces. 

You ask people to turn in their guns. Then you require it. 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

Ammosexuals?   Ok, I have never heard that term before.

And I watched a piece on racial profiling and they said that when a white person mass murders they automatically say mental illness, but when a black person does the same thing, they don't use those terms.   It is like they are excusing the white person by saying they couldn't help it, but the black person is just evil.    It was eye opening.

The ideological stance is so common it has a name…in the dictionary. You can hover over it for look up and it’s meaning is plain. 

[Katy]

This is an article on Ramos from WP. I gifted it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/25/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-gunman/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWJpZCI6IjMzNDYxMjU3IiwicmVhc29uIjoiZ2lmdCIsIm5iZiI6MTY1MzQ4MDQxNywiaXNzIjoic3Vic2NyaXB0aW9ucyIsImV4cCI6MTY1NDY5MDAxNywiaWF0IjoxNjUzNDgwNDE3LCJqdGkiOiJhYWM4YzdiMS1iN2M1LTQxOTItOTE2Ni0zMWY5Y2Q3MDg3NjEiLCJ1cmwiOiJodHRwczovL3d3dy53YXNoaW5ndG9ucG9zdC5jb20vbmF0aW9uLzIwMjIvMDUvMjUvdXZhbGRlLXRleGFzLXNjaG9vbC1zaG9vdGluZy1ndW5tYW4vIn0.EOGmFtoZIVf6ApShrGOnD4VmZVNmeRxR6-AJG36aJ80
 

 

[Katy]

It also appears that while you have to be 21 to buy a handgun from a gun store in Texas, you only need to be 18 to legally buy from a private citizen. 

https://www.uslawshield.com/buying-a-gun-in-texas/

[Faith-manor]

8 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Start prosecuting parents. EVERY.FLIPPING.TIME.

Bingo. Bring cameras into the courtroom for all to see. Make the sentences huge. I am really hoping that Ethan Crumbley's parents here in Michigan will stick. I want cameras showing them in shackles "ball and chains of iron style" lead to the maximum state penitentiary in Jackson, Mi. Primetime. Laws need to be passed to hold parents of minors accountable for murder when they let their kids get access to guns among many, many more laws including safe storage. However, Michigan is so damn full of ammosexuals and militia, white supremacist pieces of sh$t, nothing is going to get done.

2A lovers don't give a f@ck who dies. They really don't. Their own children can die, but they still won't change their minds. They are addicted to their guns in a very sick, demented, sexual way.

My Dd called me yesterday crying, "Mom, promise me if anything happens to me that you and dad will homeschool N and C. Promise me. I just can't bear to think of my kids going to school when we know nothing is ever going to change." I promised. It wouldn't be easy. I will be 70 when C is 18, Mark will be 74. But everyday all across this country parents and grandparents, aunts and uncles, guardians who have no choice have to send their kids to school and hope to god no homicidal monster shows up with a gun. 

Anyone who refers to the USA as a civilized country is ignorant. Anyone who refers to this country as "developed" is wrong. Guns kill more children than car accidents. Masks to prevent a million people from dying was a bridge too far. Ammosexuals who think the O.K. Corral was fun times are everywhere. Highest maternal death rates among the "developed" nations. The list is long of all the horrific things we "best" other nations at. Why anyone still even wants to come here, I will never know.

My heart is breaking, and we have the Crumbleys practically in our back yard as well as a gazillion more just like them all posting all over facebook, "You can have my guns when you pry them out of my cold, dead hands." 

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, absolutely we need to work on the gun laws. No question.

But I have another question, not quite sure how the boy got in there. When I taught, we had only one entrance and it was locked. You had to let the people in. My brother-in-law is head of security for a very large school district in Texas and tis is hammered home. They even do regular checks and have people try to get through ( and yes, sometimes they do) and it is really hammered into their heads not to. And this young man had body armor and guns in clear view if I understand. So just wondering what protocols this building had in place. Because I thought it was a statewide mandate to only have one locked entrance.

Yes, sad, we shouldn't have to do this. But we do. Just what ran through my head.

From where he abandoned his car and judging by where the police were searching ground after the event it looks like he went into a back door.   He could have broken the glass and unlocked it that way or it might have been unlocked.  It was a school with less than a student students in a tiny town so it wouldn’t surprise me if they had no or very lax protocols since everyone always thinks that stuff like this can’t happen where they are, especially in small towns where everyone knows everyone.    Especially if the fact that they had an armed guard made everyone feel secure. 
 

It seems like the police and a security guard engaged with him almost immediately, but they probably didn’t expect body armor.   The cops were right behind him, I think they followed/chased him there from the grandmother.   So an armed guard and cops right on his heels did almost nothing.  

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I live less than an hour from where the Buffalo shooter bought his weapon.  New York has fairly reasonable gun laws; there is no open carry, concealed carry required a permit, the permit is a process that requires fingerprints, reference checks, back ground checks and is signed off by a county judge, assault weapons are banned, we have Red Flag laws.  I actually know someone with a hot temper who threatened a coworker during an argument and a judge issued an order hours later to remove all the weapons from his home pending mental health evaluation. The cops showed up and took the guns. You have to apply for a purchase document to buy a gun and can only possess guns that you have documents for.  If you inherit a gun they’re held pending all kinds of checks.

Despite this, the shooter in Buffalo was able to legally obtain a semiautomatic rifle which he then illegally modified to have higher capacity.  And despite all of this, the small city I am a paramedic in has multiple shots fired investigations a week with frequent shootings, mostly non life threatening but it’s not uncommon to have  a shooting related homcide.  I’m willing to bet a lot of money that almost none of those weapons are legally obtained. I don’t know the details of illegal weapons, if they’re imported from somewhere or mostly stolen, but maybe fingerprint locks would stop some of that. Or maybe not.

I don’t see the need for assault style weapons, but almost everyone I know has a weapon. Many many people here hunt and that venison feeds their families throughout the winter.  I can’t imagine taking away their guns.  Even without hunting, my own husband always carries a pistol when out working in the fields or the woods.  Not due to humans, but there are bears and coyotes and other wildlife that make carrying a pistol prudent.  Most people I know carry when they’re out in the woods, but maybe not so much in the grocery store or movie theater.  We’re a lot more concerned about bears than active shooters, I guess, and I wouldn’t want those people to not have access to weapons either.  

Schools here are usually double locked with people buzzed in and an armed SRO, but it would take nothing to shoot out a glass door and step through. I’ve never understood why that was really considered secure. I suspect it’s just security theater to make people feel better.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[Farrar]

5 hours ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

Is it really truly the case that more of your population care about the right to own a gun than the right to safely go to school/shops/concerts/church?

Is it really truly the case that your lawmakers care more about votes than lives?

Why in the world aren't there restrictions on gun ownership?

I'm clearly missing something obvious.

 

On one level, yes, it's just that simple. 

On another level, more Americans support some form of gun control that's not already in place than not. In fact, most gun owners do. For some gun control measures, it's a pretty high number. It's just that it doesn't fully translate into our representatives actually passing this stuff. There are lots of things that get in the way. Money is one of them - representatives take $$$ from the gun lobby, which just wants to block absolutely everything that even rhymes with gun control.

But there are a bunch of other reasons too. Voting numbers are pretty low in the US. So even when most Americans want something, sometimes the number of Americans who vote who want something is lower.

And even when most voters want something, there are some voters who are single issue or just a few issue voters. So those voters tend to hold a bit more power with their issue because other voters will look at a dozen things and if the candidate disagrees with them about guns but agrees with them about ten other things while the other candidate disagrees about something, especially about taxes, then they'll overlook the gun issue. On the flip side, the single issue voters will never overlook the gun issue. That means that there's more reason to stick to the gun rights.

And even when voters are motivated, the gun rights side has been more successful in gerrymandering (which is not to say that the gun control side hasn't gerrymandered too, just that the gun rights side has done it much more effectively in more states). That means that if there's a state where 55% of people support gun rights overall (though, as pointed out above, they may also support some gun controls) and 45% of people support gun control overall - it's likely that 75% of their representatives are gun rights, while about 25% are gun control. That's gerrymandering because the districts purposefully carve up the voters who care about the gun control into smaller groups who are overwhelmed by the other side. This image explains it really well. Obviously, that's about way more than gun control. But gun control is one of many issues that this is happening with.

Also, the US government is just really mired in inertia right now. It's very difficult to get something done even when everyone agrees about it. Like, there are some things that both parties agree on and an overwhelming majority of Americans support. Cooperation in and of itself has become a negative. It doesn't win elections. So if you cooperate about fixing a pothole or a tax loophole everyone agrees on... it can actually hurt you in winning the election. So there's not a lot of reason to do it. On the other hand, blaming the other side and getting everyone angry can help you win. And it doesn't even have to be true anymore. The number of Americans who believe in demonstrably untrue conspiracy theories is growing. So in that context, getting something controversial done is just next to impossible.

[chiguirre]

7 hours ago, Shelydon said:

Australia doesn't border Mexico with enormous drug cartels and high rates of illegally imported weapons.  It is far easier to regulate islands.  Uvalde is about an hour from the Mexico border.

The illegal weapons flow from the US to Mexico, not the other way.

Here's a concise overview of the Mexican gun situation. It's Wikipedia, but it's a great place to start.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_firearms_into_Mexico

Mexicans have a right to own firearms,^[1] but legal purchase from the single Mexican gun shop in Mexico City, controlled by the Army, is extremely difficult.^[2] Guns smuggled into Mexico are sometimes obtained at gunshops in the United States and carried across the US-Mexico border.^[3][4] In other cases the guns are obtained through Guatemalan borders^[5] or stolen from the police or military.^[6] Consequently, black market firearms are widely available. Many firearms are acquired in the U.S. by women with no criminal history, who transfer their purchases to smugglers through relatives, boyfriends and acquaintances who then smuggle them to Mexico a few at a time.^[7] 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by chiguirre

[denarii]

7 hours ago, Shelydon said:

Australia doesn't border Mexico with enormous drug cartels and high rates of illegally imported weapons.  It is far easier to regulate islands.  Uvalde is about an hour from the Mexico border.

Except the illegal gun trade over the Mexican border is primarily guns leaving the US not entering it.

And older PBS article but it does highlight the problem

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/the-flow-of-guns-from-the-u-s-to-mexico-is-getting-lost-in-the-border-debate

"Research shows that a majority of guns in Mexico can be traced to the U.S. A report from the U.S Government Accountability Office showed that 70 percent of guns seized in Mexico by Mexican authorities and submitted for tracing have a U.S. origin. "

another source

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/beyond-our-borders/

"However, many of the same gaps and weaknesses in U.S. gun laws that contribute to illegal gun trafficking domestically likewise contribute to the illegal trafficking of guns from the United States to nearby nations."

 

This is a problem for Canada too. American guns illegally brought across the boarder were used in the deadliest mass shooting Canada has ever seen.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/how-the-nova-scotia-mass-shooter-smuggled-guns-into-canada-1.6437579

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by denarii

[Happy2BaMom]

44 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Anyone who refers to the USA as a civilized country is ignorant. Anyone who refers to this country as "developed" is wrong. Guns kill more children than car accidents. Masks to prevent a million people from dying was a bridge too far. Ammosexuals who think the O.K. Corral was fun times are everywhere. Highest maternal death rates among the "developed" nations. The list is long of all the horrific things we "best" other nations at. Why anyone still even wants to come here, I will never know.

My heart is breaking, and we have the Crumbleys practically in our back yard as well as a gazillion more just like them all posting all over facebook, "You can have my guns when you pry them out of my cold, dead hands." 

I was going to post something similar in a response to Chooky. Many people outside the US still have vestiges of seeing the US as a world leader and the 'best place' and don't understand how much our values have degraded over the last 30-40 years (side note: my Native American friends tell me they haven't degraded at all, they've just come forward now that resources are no longer abundant).

What much of the US values (now, at least) is selfishness without the obligation of societal responsibility. There are even legislators who have openly stated that there is "no such thing as a public good". We elect who we are and, yes, there is gerrymandering, but federal Senators, state Governors, and most (all?) state Supreme Court judges are elected state-wide, so gerrymandering doesn't matter, and....we still elect the same type of people. (but, yes, low turn-out is a factor). And the same no-restrictions-all-guns-all-the-time politicians will all (or nearly all) be re-elected (or newly elected) this fall....in that, I have no doubt.

And I agree with you, Faith, but I'd point out that pretty much the only people coming here now are immigrants fleeing violence, starvation, and death from developing countries. We don't get many permanent immigrants from Europe (as our previous president once semi-famously bemoaned) or other countries that have educated populations in stable societies. They're not interested.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Happy2BaMom

[maize]

8 hours ago, Katy said:

I have two questions...

1) Why don't we make the legal age of adulthood 25 or 26?  Meaning you need a fully functioning frontal lobe to purchase guns.  We could make an exception for those in the military or similar civil service jobs (Americore) perhaps.  But neuroscience has shown the founding fathers were correct.  I'm thinking this would be easier to get passed than other, better options I can think of.

2) Does anyone know what the legal age to purchase handguns in Texas is?  I saw the law changed with regard to carrying them at 18, but did that mean an 18 year old is free to purchase them as well?

There's no reason military service members would need to own guns. Military weapons are issued at work, generally kept at work, and tracked very carefully. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by maize

[lauraw4321]

The story about the shooter is gut wrenching. 

[ktgrok]

11 hours ago, lewelma said:

My other sister teaches at a community college on the second floor, so no way to exit. After begging for years, only 2 weeks ago did they finally put a lock on the inside of the door. 

You can buy a roll up ladder that hooks into the window frame from Amazon, we have them for the second story as fire escape options in my house. she'd need a way to break the window first, but it's an idea. not just for shooter situation, but for fire exit as well. 

11 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Unfortunately, with the ability to make guns using 3d printers, I guess I keep hoping that some schools will have more security and better planning.  That is all. I think EVERYTHING needs to be addressed.  Schools should be safe and secure.  They are not.  😞

Nothing that involves moving parts is easy to make with a 3d printer. Even if you have a good file to print from, things get messed up, you have to tweak it, and then add in that firing a gun creates a lot of heat, and the resin used to make the gun melts (that's how it prints, by melting the filament), it really isn't capable of creating a weapon of mass destruction. Certainly not simply. 

Also, still need bullets. We can regulate ammo. 

10 hours ago, Farrar said:

If I start talking about it, I'll just start screaming. I'm in that weird space between so angry I'm incandescent and so numb I couldn't care less.

That's about where I am. I'm numb, but in an awful way, like the closest I can imagine to being suicidal. I don't want to die, but I'd really like the world to just hit pause, or stop spinning. 

At this point I'm distracting my brain with massive amounts of crossword puzzles, because I can't think about the zillion ways the world is too awful when I'm doing a crossword puzzle. It's actually at the level of being unhealthy probably, no one needs to do half a dozen crosswords a day, but I figure it's better than getting drunk or locking myself in my room in the dark for a week. 

Also listening to audio books and reading. Anything to purposely keep my mind from contemplating what actually happened. The minute my brain goes there I shut it down. Because really, I am not equipped to think about that. I'm the person who can't even watch violence on TV because my mirror neurons or empathy or whatever is too strong. To contemplate this ? I can't. Not and stay sane. 

I cannot think about this and stay sane. 

The whole damn country needs grief counseling I think. 

Is that even a thing? Is it normal to need grief counseling from the dang news?? Cause I think that's where I'm at. Between all the other BS happening, and now this...it's too much. 

I took my own elementary student into my bed last night to watch TV, then let my dogs, who are not allowed upstairs, into bed too. Cause life is too dang short. 

10 hours ago, rebcoola said:

I've never seen school with that kind of security in real life. I wonder what the cost is compared to the actual occurrence of problems.  They have various lockdown procedures and protocols.

Pretty sure my mind just broke further, contemplating what the lives of 18 children is worth in actual currency. 

9 hours ago, Terabith said:

How do you keep kids from bringing guns in?  An elementary school student at a school five minutes away from me, where I have taught, brought a gun to school last week.  I just don't see these kinds of precautions keeping guns out, since most shooters are students.  

We have schools in Orlando that require clear backpacks, that they get from the school, with the idea of preventing people from having a gun in their backpack. Of course you could just wrap it up in a t-shirt or something and then stick it in the backpack. But yeah, that's one measure being taken. 

I have driven by the sign on the school over the summer, reminding parents to pick up the clear backpacks, and wanted to cry. 

8 hours ago, Lillyfee said:

 

Lots of women also say "If my husband is not home, I have the gun on my night table. " also here I am like "the chance that your kid accidentally shoots himself or that you misinterpret a situation and kill somebody harmless is so much more likely than that you shoot a serious criminal that comes in your house."

 

Yup. There have been 2 times in 10 yrs we have taken the gun out of the safe to have it closer for protection, both times put it up on top of the refrigerator, and both times was during an active man hunt for an armed criminal in my actual neighborhood. Like, with helicopters circling over my street. I stayed in eyesight of that gun, so no kid could try to access it without me knowing, and it was for about an hour each time. When the helicopters left, it went back in the safe. (also, did not chamber a round, and that particular gun requires adult strength to chamber a round, as another precaution, and that second gives an adult another second to evaluate the situation)

the idea of having it out, loaded, where anyone could get it while I slept, AND where I would be sleepy while easily accessing it? Insanity. 

7 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I mean…we prove this with a dozen other metrics.  Maternal mortality, literacy rates, health outcome, deaths of despair, violent crimes of all sorts, proportion of population behind bars….

All things we could change, just like we could change this. We just don't. 

7 hours ago, KSera said:

Let's go all in on the 2nd Amendment then and freaking WELL REGULATE our militia. Let's regulate the hell out of it.

Exactly how I feel. 

5 hours ago, lewelma said:

I went looking to find countries like the USA with gun ownership, and found this list for the number of guns per capita, the USA is far far above all other countries. Double the next closest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

But then I found this list with percentage of households with guns by country.  It shows the USA as number 1 at 42% of households but only slightly above the next highest Finland at 38%. If you look at the top 10 countries, most of them feel pretty safe to me. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent_of_households_with_guns_by_country

I guess I was just surprised that the USA is not the huge outlier that I thought it was, there are just certain households that have a ton of weapons. 
 

The issue with the actual number of guns, vs households, is that it means more guns to be handed off to a friend to borrow, or more guns stolen and falling into the hands of a criminal. If households had one, instead of a dozen, even the ammosexuals might take better care of it, I think. That's my best explanation for why the sheer number, vs number of households, make such a difference in the level of violence. 

4 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

https://www.scotland.police.uk/about-us/what-we-do/firearms-and-explosives-licensing/firearms-and-shotguns/

'On receipt of your application, your enquiry will be allocated to a local Firearm Enquiry Officer (FEO). They will carry our enquiry including interviewing your referees, background checks, and a home visit and security check.'

The certificate lasts five years, but any member of the public or doctor who is concerned about the fitness (eta usually concerning diagnosed mental illness that might affect ability to own a gun safely or documented violent conduct) of a licence holder to continue holding guns can flag this to the police for investigation.

This makes so much sense. And I get it, people scream 2nd ammendment like it is freaking scripture handed down by God himself. but it isn't. We can change it. That's what an ammendment IS for heavens sake. 

20 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I live less than an hour from where the Buffalo shooter bought his weapon.  New York has fairly reasonable gun laws; there is no open carry, concealed carry required a permit, the permit is a process that requires fingerprints, reference checks, back ground checks and is signed off by a county judge, assault weapons are banned, we have Red Flag laws.  I actually know someone with a hot temper who threatened a coworker during an argument and a judge issued an order hours later to remove all the weapons from his home pending mental health evaluation. The cops showed up and took the guns. You have to apply for a purchase document to buy a gun and can only possess guns that you have documents for.  If you inherit a gun they’re held pending all kinds of checks.

Despite this, the shooter in Buffalo was able to legally obtain a semiautomatic rifle which he then illegally modified to have higher capacity.  And despite all of this, the small city I am a paramedic in has multiple shots fired investigations a week with frequent shootings, mostly non life threatening but it’s not uncommon to have  a shooting related homcide.  I’m willing to bet a lot of money that almost none of those weapons are legally obtained. I don’t know the details of illegal weapons, if they’re imported from somewhere or mostly stolen, but maybe fingerprint locks would stop some of that. Or maybe not.

I don’t see the need for assault style weapons, but almost everyone I know has a weapon. Many many people here hunt and that venison feeds their families throughout the winter.  I can’t imagine taking away their guns.  Even without hunting, my own husband always carries a pistol when out working in the fields or the woods.  Not due to humans, but there are bears and coyotes and other wildlife that make carrying a pistol prudent.  Most people I know carry when they’re out in the woods, but maybe not so much in the grocery store or movie theater.  We’re a lot more concerned about bears than active shooters, I guess, and I wouldn’t want those people to not have access to weapons either.  

Schools here are usually double locked with people buzzed in and an armed SRO, but it would take nothing to shoot out a glass door and step through. I’ve never understood why that was really considered secure. I suspect it’s just security theater to make people feel better.

I think even countries with fairly strict gun laws often have exceptions for rural people to have a shot gun or other small capacity firearm. Not to mention stricter requirements on who can have one. I do think we can have laws that let a person hunt for venison without letting someone own dozens of high capacity firearms. 

[maize]

I've been intentionally limiting how much I read about this shooting. My heart breaks for the families.

We do need far more gun control. 

I live in hunting country; I get that most people who own guns have basically zero risk of using them irresponsibility. 

Just as most people who drive cars aren't irresponsible with them. But we regulate car ownership far more than we regulate gun ownership.

Aside from the risk of mass shootings and homicides (which we rightfully recognize as horrific) guns take a terrible toll in this country every single year through suicide. 

My husband struggled with serious suicidality for two decades. I can only guess, but I put my risk of being a widow at this point at at least 50% had we ever kept a gun in the household; mental illness and guns are really, really, really bad things to mix. Far worse than drinking and driving. But we act like oh well, nothing at all we can do about this.

[Heartstrings]

11 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

he issue with the actual number of guns, vs households, is that it means more guns to be handed off to a friend to borrow, or more guns stolen and falling into the hands of a criminal. If households had one, instead of a dozen, even the ammosexuals might take better care of it, I think.

What’s really sad is after events like this gun sales go UP.  Today, this weekend, a bunch of ammo-sexuals will be going to buy guns because “their gonna try to take our guns after this”.   There’s a scarcity mentality that takes over even for people with plenty of guns at home.  They envision fighting off the deny that is coming to round up their guns.  Happens every time something like this happens.  Which serves to make these events immensely profitable for what should be a saturated market.  
 

It’s like every time a liberal says ban guns a gun nut sprouts 2 more.    

Edited May 25, 2022 by Heartstrings

[ktgrok]

Also, I'm 100 percent for yearly safe checks, to be sure guns are IN the safe, and it is locked. If my car can be inspected yearly like it is in some states, so can a gun safe. (without notice ideally). 

And it shouldn't be that you get arrested if your gun is used in a crime if you didn't store it properly. Just not storing it properly , even if no crime was committed with it, should be enough to arrest you and slam you with a BIG fine and some jail time/community service/etc. 

Let's catch people improperly storing BEFORE the crime happens. Have an anonymous hotline to report such things. 

[Lillyfee]

There are two big problems why the US is going that way. You have the most predatory form of government where corporations are in charge. This is not a government by the people for the people. It is a government against the normal people and almost like a modern form of slavery. 

Second,  people get lied to that nothing changes. A lot of people here I talk to have a completely wrong picture about the rest of the world. They think there is more crime, they think people are less free somewhere else or poorer and all that is not true for the most part. But no the gap between rich and poor is insane, no health insurance as a human right, shootings every day. That has to change.

 

[Jaybee]

6 hours ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

This is heartwrenching. I just can't comprehend how this can just keep on happening. It is so so so far from my reality. It's horrifying.

Explain it to me.

Is it really truly the case that more of your population care about the right to own a gun than the right to safely go to school/shops/concerts/church?

Is it really truly the case that your lawmakers care more about votes than lives?

Why in the world aren't there restrictions on gun ownership?

I'm clearly missing something obvious.

 

I don't understand it either. The mindset is...just hard for me to fathom. I live smack dab in the middle of a very pro-gun culture. Once I mentioned to a former police officer here that we don't have any guns, and she looked at me like I was crazy. I think most people here carry. We didn't grow up here, but did actually grow up in a pro-gun culture area--not like it is today, though. Dh has gone hunting a few times with borrowed guns, but it has been years. Somewhere along the way, years ago, we decided we wanted no guns in our home. Our youngest likes weapons. He is 18, and as far as I know, doesn't own a gun. But I don't know for sure. He has a friend who built an assault rifle from a kit with his dad. That horrifies me. Lots of scattered thoughts here. Mostly about my precious grandchildren, of whom most will be attending public schools. I'm heartbroken. 

[Dmmetler]

6 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I was replying to a comment saying any inspection was too invasive.  A sheriff deputy putting eyes on the safe in the home before a new gun acquisition would be a wonderful thing.  Especially if paired with fines if it was later shown that it wasn’t being used and led to something happening. 

Showing proof of purchase would be too easy to get around and almost meaningless, same as the box checking affirming its existence mentioned up thread.    

 

Also what license?  Guns aren’t licensed or registered where I live.   Last time we bought one it took 5 minutes in Sports Academy  and no one knew but us and Sports Academy.  Only need a permit if you want to carry concealed.  

And it is not like it’s not pretty common to have a home check if you want to, say, care for children in your home (either licensed child care or foster care or adoption), cook for others out of your home, and while it’s not a law, try adopting a pet from a rescue without a home check. If, in the interest of public health, the city can regulate Aunt Ginny’s home kitchen before letting her sell jams and jellies at the farmer’s market, they can damned well check on whether there is a gun safe, trigger locks, etc to keep guns out of the hands of teens who have decided that they can rack up high scores in the game of life by killing whoever 4 Chan and You Tube gamers have deemed an enemy. 
 

I’m also sick and tired of seeing MH and MH meds blamed. Because there are hundreds of children and families who’s mental health will never be the same after this. I’m tired of everyone’s mental well being and physical safety being ignored while we wring our hands over what might possibly have caused these white boys to become mass shooters. 
 

Get rid of the guns first. 

[1234]

I grew up in small town Texas. We had shotguns on a wall rack with ammo underneath. They were used only for hunting and never locked away. We also had one handgun in my parents nightstand for protection (that was never used) but also not locked away. This was the norm for pretty much everyone, including my grandparents and other family, where I grew up but there were no mass shootings. There were a few suicides though.

Those same kids I grew up with that still live there are very different today. Their social media is terrifying to me. It’s full of talk of how no one will take their guns and how if someone tries to do anything, even the smallest of things, they will “take them out”. They also have way more firearms than any of us had growing up and way more powerful ones as well (they get their kids AR 15 type guns). I have stopped talking to basically all of my childhood friends at this point because I don’t understand who they are at all anymore. It’s crazy to me how much it’s changed and I still don’t understand why or how it happened.

[Farrar]

13 minutes ago, Lillyfee said:

There are two big problems why the US is going that way. You have the most predatory form of government where corporations are in charge. This is not a government by the people for the people. It is a government against the normal people and almost like a modern form of slavery. 

Second,  people get lied to that nothing changes. A lot of people here I talk to have a completely wrong picture about the rest of the world. They think there is more crime, they think people are less free somewhere else or poorer and all that is not true for the most part. But no the gap between rich and poor is insane, no health insurance as a human right, shootings every day. That has to change.

 

The first is why I refuse to engage over whether we need specific gun control measures or limits on magazines or more background checks or better gun education or even better door buzzers on schools. Like, yes. We do? But who cares. Because until we fix our broken democracy, it's not happening. We have to ensure voting rights, end gerrymandering everywhere, get better at counting everyone in the next census, give me and my neighbors the right to voting representation (DC statehood!), and figure out how to counter our disinformation crisis.

The second is so bizarre to me but so true. Even for people who have traveled. It's just depressing how Americans have this mindset that only America can be safe and free and good and that everywhere else must be inferior.

[Happy2BaMom]

Just now, Joker2 said:

 

Those same kids I grew up with that still live there are very different today. Their social media is terrifying to me. It’s full of talk of how no one will take their guns and how if someone tries to do anything, even the smallest of things, they will “take them out”. They also have way more firearms than any of us had growing up and way more powerful ones as well (they get their kids AR 15 type guns). I have stopped talking to basically all of my childhood friends at this point because I don’t understand who they are at all anymore. It’s crazy to me how much it’s changed and I still don’t understand why or how it happened.

It's the extremism of right-wing 'news' & SM. It really is. It's programming. People can argue that CNN is equivalent programming, but the SM feed of my friends who watch CNN, etc all day is *far* less violent than the extended family that are all-in on the other end of the spectrum.

And the violence is exactly why I don't believe we won't pass any safety legislation re: guns, at least not any time soon. Too many people in this country LITERALLY lose their minds over even the thought of a single limitation being put on guns/ammo/right-to-carry/etc...and then they threaten (& intend) violence.

[Lillyfee]

And a two party system does just not work. They are both just fighting and block each other instead of working for the people and nothing ever gets done.

Several parties need to work together and being forces to join each other.

[Happy2BaMom]

1 minute ago, Farrar said:

The second is so bizarre to me but so true. Even for people who have traveled. It's just depressing how Americans have this mindset that only America can be safe and free and good and that everywhere else must be inferior.

This. Many people in this country have such a warped view of how (supposedly) great life is here, and how much worse it is everywhere else. It really is bizarre. Dh & I know many expats at this point, and they all say the same thing - leaving the US improved their personal happiness, and reduced their personal stress levels, by orders of magnitude.

But we don't want to leave. And it doesn't feel right to me. So I guess we're stuck.

[QueenCat]

2 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, absolutely we need to work on the gun laws. No question.

But I have another question, not quite sure how the boy got in there. When I taught, we had only one entrance and it was locked. You had to let the people in. My brother-in-law is head of security for a very large school district in Texas and tis is hammered home. They even do regular checks and have people try to get through ( and yes, sometimes they do) and it is really hammered into their heads not to. And this young man had body armor and guns in clear view if I understand. So just wondering what protocols this building had in place. Because I thought it was a statewide mandate to only have one locked entrance.

Yes, sad, we shouldn't have to do this. But we do. Just what ran through my head.

I'm not awake  yet, so I'm not sure I'm understanding  you. I've never been in a school with only one door to the outside. One official entrance, yes. And you have to be buzzed in. But plenty of other doors to things like the playground, etc. that our staff badges would open. It wouldn't be safe in a fire to only have one door to the entire school.

[lmrich]

It is just overwhelming and hard to process the horrors of yesterday. 

 

[Heartstrings]

They are reporting that all the fatalities were in 1 room.  
 

https://www.nbc29.com/2022/05/25/graphic-gunman-kills-19-children-2-adults-texas-school-rampage/?fbclid=IwAR3Wj3s6Bjn-aCpNpxFeaMDIarAmhT4wgx86MLB4isaSRAjkZ2x-8FTMPZU&fs=e&s=cl

[Faith-manor]

19 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

And it is not like it’s not pretty common to have a home check if you want to, say, care for children in your home (either licensed child care or foster care or adoption), cook for others out of your home, and while it’s not a law, try adopting a pet from a rescue without a home check. If, in the interest of public health, the city can regulate Aunt Ginny’s home kitchen before letting her sell jams and jellies at the farmer’s market, they can damned well check on whether there is a gun safe, trigger locks, etc to keep guns out of the hands of teens who have decided that they can rack up high scores in the game of life by killing whoever 4 Chan and You Tube gamers have deemed an enemy. 
 

I’m also sick and tired of seeing MH and MH meds blamed. Because there are hundreds of children and families who’s mental health will never be the same after this. I’m tired of everyone’s mental well being and physical safety being ignored while we wring our hands over what might possibly have caused these white boys to become mass shooters. 
 

Get rid of the guns first. 

This, 100% this.

[Murphy101]

 

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

It seems like the police and a security guard engaged with him almost immediately, but they probably didn’t expect body armor.   The cops were right behind him, I think they followed/chased him there from the grandmother.   So an armed guard and cops right on his heels did almost nothing.  
 

That is not true. Iirc that school had roughly 600 students from 2nd grade to 5th grade.  Those 2 men very possibly saved hundreds.

As bad as this is. And it’s truest awful. He was stopped before he could make it an even higher body count. And that is not at all almost nothing. To hundreds of families able to hang on to their loved one who was in that school, it was absolutely everything to them. 

[Idalou]

4 hours ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

So why won't those senators vote? What's holding them back? How will they lose their power if 90% of the population supports stricter gun laws?

ETA: just read a later reply. So it's about money?

One senator a few years ago made a video of himself wrapping a slice of bacon around his rifle and firing it, then saying how yummy machine gun bacon is.

Yesterday another US congressman tweeted that the killer was a transgendered illegal alien...taken straight out of lies making the rounds of 4Chan and other extremely dangerous sites.

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Idalou

[Idalou]

35 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

That is not true. Iirc that school had roughly 600 students from 2nd grade to 5th grade.  Those 2 men very possibly saved hundreds.

As bad as this is. And it’s truest awful. He was stopped before he could make it an even higher body count. And that is not at all almost nothing. To hundreds of families able to hang on to their loved one who was in that school, it was absolutely everything to them. 

Yes. I don't think they literally chased him from the grandmother's home. She was screaming as she was shot, authorities were called with description of his truck. Then they get the call the truck was in a ditch next to the school, so all types of LE rushed there. 

ETA I just read that a LE spoke to Anderson Cooper and said gunfire was exchanged but he still was able to enter the school. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Idalou

[ktgrok]

32 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

And it is not like it’s not pretty common to have a home check if you want to, say, care for children in your home (either licensed child care or foster care or adoption), cook for others out of your home, and while it’s not a law, try adopting a pet from a rescue without a home check. If, in the interest of public health, the city can regulate Aunt Ginny’s home kitchen before letting her sell jams and jellies at the farmer’s market, they can damned well check on whether there is a gun safe, trigger locks, etc to keep guns out of the hands of teens who have decided that they can rack up high scores in the game of life by killing whoever 4 Chan and You Tube gamers have deemed an enemy. 
 

I

Yup. A proof of purchase doesn't work, and I can share a reason why. When we bought the old house FHA required it have a working oven installed in order to approve our loan. We didn't want to buy and store an oven until we actually had moved in, because we had no where to put it, and were trying to keep as much money fluid as possible. So DH asked what they needed as proof of purchase. Was told a receipt. So he ordered the cheapest oven on the Sears website with a credit card, printed the online receipt, then seconds later canceled the purchase. Tada! Emailed the receipt to the loan people and we got the loan, despite not actually having an oven yet. 

9 minutes ago, Idalou said:

One senator a few years ago made a video of himself wrapping a slice of bacon around his rifle and firing it, then saying how yummy machine gun bacon is.

Yesterday another US congressman tweeted that the killer was a transgendered illegal alien...taken straight out of lies making the rounds of 4Chan and other extremely dangerous sites.

 

Dear heavens. The guy was born in North Dakota, wasn't he?

[Heartstrings]

20 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

That is not true. Iirc that school had roughly 600 students from 2nd grade to 5th grade.  Those 2 men very possibly saved hundreds.

As bad as this is. And it’s truest awful. He was stopped before he could make it an even higher body count. And that is not at all almost nothing. To hundreds of families able to hang on to their loved one who was in that school, it was absolutely everything to them. 

Of course those men are hero's and the quick action to evacuate the other kids was life saving.  I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.  But the good guy with a gun narrative tells us that he should have been taken down before getting to the building and killing anyone.   If 3 armed officers aren’t enough why do people think an untrained gun nut will do any good.    It took a tactical team to get him out.  This narrative needs to disappear.  
 

When thinking of the 21 it feels like little was done even though undoubtedly it could have been worse.  The NY Times are reporting that he bought over 300 rounds and 2 rifles the week before and they found 7 unused magazines on the scene.  He was clearly armed enough to take out half the school. 
 

It’s just so maddening.   2 rifles, 7+ magazines, 300 rounds, body armor, days after turning 18, raised no flags Bc that’s just a regular day in America and it makes me want to rip my hair out.    

Edited May 25, 2022 by Heartstrings

[Lillyfee]

Now I have a question.

When my kids went to school the doors were always locked and you needed to ring the bell and then the office let you in after you showed your ID. Is that how it works in most US schools?

[Murphy101]

13 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Of course those men are hero's and the quick action to evacuate the other kids was life saving.  I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.  But the good guy with a gun narrative tells us that he should have been taken down before getting to the building and killing anyone.   If 3 armed officers aren’t enough why do people think an untrained gun nut will do any good.    It took a tactical team to get him out.  This narrative needs to disappear.  

Oh! Now on that I 100% agree and so does any trained experienced gun owner I know. People think real life is like the stupid crap they watch on TV.   It just isn’t.

[alysee]

12 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Of course those men are hero's and the quick action to evacuate the other kids was life saving.  I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.  But the good guy with a gun narrative tells us that he should have been taken down before getting to the building and killing anyone.   If 3 armed officers aren’t enough why do people think an untrained gun nut will do any good.    It took a tactical team to get him out.  This narrative needs to disappear.  
 

When thinking of the 21 it feels like little was done even though undoubtedly it could have been worse.  The NY Times are reporting that he bought over 300 rounds and 2 rifles the week before and they found 7 unused magazines on the scene.  He was clearly armed enough to take out half the school. 
 

It’s just so maddening.   2 rifles, 7+ magazines, 300 rounds, body armor, days after turning 18, raised no flags Bc that’s just a regular day in America and it makes me want to rip my hair out.    

Sorry again, Canadian here. This is my biggest hangups with America's obsession with guns to protect themselves. 1. Even if I practiced I could never be as good as a police officer or swat team. 2. The trauma and therapu I would endure after I shot a person entering my home just to protect my TVs and money. Are Americans psychopaths that are just willing to kill people over material things and not become severely traumatized. 

I have always lived in places that are pro-hunting so I have seen guns, I am not naive but this idea to use it for protecting my stuff and family seems ludicrous to me. I am sure that my feelings are based on where I live but everytime a school shooting happens in the states these conversations happen here too. 

[Happy2BaMom]

19 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Of course those men are hero's and the quick action to evacuate the other kids was life saving.  I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.  But the good guy with a gun narrative tells us that he should have been taken down before getting to the building and killing anyone.   If 3 armed officers aren’t enough why do people think an untrained gun nut will do any good.    It took a tactical team to get him out.  This narrative needs to disappear.  
 

When thinking of the 21 it feels like little was done even though undoubtedly it could have been worse.  The NY Times are reporting that he bought over 300 rounds and 2 rifles the week before and they found 7 unused magazines on the scene.  He was clearly armed enough to take out half the school. 
 

It’s just so maddening.   2 rifles, 7+ magazines, 300 rounds, body armor, days after turning 18, raised no flags Bc that’s just a regular day in America and it makes me want to rip my hair out.    

The good guy with a gun narrative is just that....a narrative. Very few every day citizens want to be prepared to drop everything for a direct shoot-out AT A MOMENT'S NOTICE, at literally any place, at any time (day or night)...and yet just a thing would be required for the "good guy with a gun" narrative to work. Everyone prepared to start shooting, at a moment's notice, with perfect aim, and perfect judgment/assessment of the situation (what if someone is just showing his gun to a friend, or carrying a rifle down the street - perfect legal?). It is an unbelievable fantasy to all but the gun nuts, of which the US has many.

And yet many people have bought into that narrative. More guns in more people's hands! That'll make us safe! Some days, I really thing we are seriously the stupidest f*cking people on the planet.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Happy2BaMom

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, alysee said:

Are Americans psychopaths that are just willing to kill people over material things and not become severely traumatized. 

Some of them (us?) aren’t just willing but they are gleefully anticipating the joy of getting to kill people trying to steal their TV. They think about it, dream about it, plan for it. There are message boards full of it.  
 

 

[Terabith]

It was really hard to force my kid to go to school today.  Standardized testing is over, and there’s no instruction going on.  They are literally watching “Ancient Aliens” in history for the rest of the year. In a couple classes they have final projects that they spend class time working on independently.  But because there’s no real school going on, it’s super loud and my kid is overwhelmed from a sensory perspective, even with noise canceling headphones.  Noise at this school was what led my oldest kid to have a nervous breakdown that they’re a lot better but have never fully recovered from.  So I am already triggered about that with this kid.  All absences require a doctors note, and if she skips school she’ll have to take exams that she’d otherwise be exempt from and also they threaten not to give credit for the year and they threaten to report us to CPS since she’s missed a lot this year because every time she’s been sick, we have kept her home and gotten a pcr test, like we’re supposed to do.  
 

So I can’t keep her home, even though being at school is stupid and pointless.  Even after a horrific shooting that we will completely ignore.  

[Lillyfee]

1 minute ago, alysee said:

Sorry again, Canadian here. This is my biggest hangups with America's obsession with guns to protect themselves. 1. Even if I practiced I could never be as good as a police officer or swat team. 2. The trauma and therapu I would endure after I shot a person entering my home just to protect my TVs and money. Are Americans psychopaths that are just willing to kill people over material things and not become severely traumatized. 

I have always lived in places that are pro-hunting so I have seen guns, I am not naive but this idea to use it for protecting my stuff and family seems ludicrous to me. I am sure that my feelings are based on where I live but everytime a school shooting happens in the states these conversations happen here too. 

Thank you.  Exactly how I feel. 

I shoot a person for coming on my property? Really? And people think that  is ok?

Most people do not have the training to decide the right thing in a split of a second and real bad criminals probably outsmart you anyways.

 

[Murphy101]

Just now, Lillyfee said:

Now I have a question.

When my kids went to school the doors were always locked and you needed to ring the bell and then the office let you in after you showed your ID. Is that how it works in most US schools?

In cities with large schools - usually just because that’s easier for the school anyways. 

In rural areas? Maybe 50/50 in Oklahoma and Texas.  Frankly if we are going to make gun regs all about the money - a lot of the schools out here are extremely short staffed and short budgeted.  When teachers have to beg donations for crayons, good luck getting new locks and metal detectors and whatever. 

And frankly I don’t even want to discuss that. It doesn’t matter. The solution to stopping a crazed man with a gun is never going to be a metal detector and bell check in and other prison implements for the children.

It’s the damned guns not the doors that were the problem here. The doors and active shooter drills literally have nothing to do with anything other than giving a entirely false sense of security about gun safety to avoid implementing actual gun safety regs. 

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

Yet many people have bought into that narrative. More guns in more people's hands! That'll make us safe! Some days, I really thing we are seriously the stupidest f*cking people on the planet.

Texas just loosened its carry laws to allow anyone to carry, for just that reason, over the objection of the police and sheriff associations.  As asinine as the narrative is they are making laws based on it.  

[Lillyfee]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

In cities with large schools - usually just because that’s easier for the school anyways. 

In rural areas? Maybe 50/50 in Oklahoma and Texas.  Frankly if we are going to make gun regs all about the money - a lot of the schools out here are extremely short staffed and short budgeted.  When teachers have to beg donations for crayons, good luck getting new locks and metal detectors and whatever. 

And frankly I don’t even want to discuss that. It doesn’t matter. The solution to stopping a crazed man with a gun is never going to be a metal detector and bell check in and other prison implements for the children.

It’s the damned guns not the doors that were the problem here. The doors and active shooter drills literally have nothing to do with anything other than giving a entirely false sense of security about gun safety to avoid implementing actual gun safety regs. 

We live on base in a rural area. They even closed one gate indefinitely because it was to close to the elementary school.

It doesn't feel like a prison and no metal detectors are in place but during school nobody can go in without ringing the bell.

I thought first it was silly but now I hope when we move the schools have it too.

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, Lillyfee said:

We live on base in a rural area. They even closed one gate indefinitely because it was to close to the elementary school.

It doesn't feel like a prison and no metal detectors are in place but during school nobody can go in without ringing the bell.

I thought first it was silly but now I hope when we move the schools have it too.

That’s the front door.  What’s done about the side doors to the playground, the buses, the gym, all the fire exists? 

[Lecka]

They automatically lock and teachers have scan cards to open the locks.  
 

Once in a while you see a door propped open.

 

 

[Idalou]

2 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I live less than an hour from where the Buffalo shooter bought his weapon.  New York has fairly reasonable gun laws; there is no open carry, concealed carry required a permit, the permit is a process that requires fingerprints, reference checks, back ground checks and is signed off by a county judge, assault weapons are banned, we have Red Flag laws.  I actually know someone with a hot temper who threatened a coworker during an argument and a judge issued an order hours later to remove all the weapons from his home pending mental health evaluation. The cops showed up and took the guns. You have to apply for a purchase document to buy a gun and can only possess guns that you have documents for.  If you inherit a gun they’re held pending all kinds of checks.

Despite this, the shooter in Buffalo was able to legally obtain a semiautomatic rifle which he then illegally modified to have higher capacity.  And despite all of this, the small city I am a paramedic in has multiple shots fired investigations a week with frequent shootings, mostly non life threatening but it’s not uncommon to have  a shooting related homcide.  I’m willing to bet a lot of money that almost none of those weapons are legally obtained. I don’t know the details of illegal weapons, if they’re imported from somewhere or mostly stolen, but maybe fingerprint locks would stop some of that. Or maybe not.

I don’t see the need for assault style weapons, but almost everyone I know has a weapon. Many many people here hunt and that venison feeds their families throughout the winter.  I can’t imagine taking away their guns.  Even without hunting, my own husband always carries a pistol when out working in the fields or the woods.  Not due to humans, but there are bears and coyotes and other wildlife that make carrying a pistol prudent.  Most people I know carry when they’re out in the woods, but maybe not so much in the grocery store or movie theater.  We’re a lot more concerned about bears than active shooters, I guess, and I wouldn’t want those people to not have access to weapons either.  

Schools here are usually double locked with people buzzed in and an armed SRO, but it would take nothing to shoot out a glass door and step through. I’ve never understood why that was really considered secure. I suspect it’s just security theater to make people feel better.

No one is serious about taking away deer hunter's guns. No one needs an AR 15 to shoot a deer in NY. Having this sentiment about how "they" want to take away their deer guns is so damaging.

But in other news, watch what the Supreme Court will be saying soon about needing probable cause to conceal carry on NY. This is very big, and will reverberate through it least 8 other states.