Omicron anecdata?

[vonfirmath]

28 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Cases are dropping like a rock in WI.

DHS reports 1,935 new COVID-19 cases in Wisconsin | Coronavirus | wkow.com

 

 

Locally they report hospitalizations more than cases since that is what our stages are based on. We are still in stage 5 territory (barely) -- but hospitalizations have been dropping for three weeks now

https://austin.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/0ad7fa50ba504e73be9945ec2a7841cb

[Catwoman]

22 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Yes. The box has an expiry date.

Wow, they expire a lot more quickly than I thought they would! I assumed that they would be good for at least a year or so. 

[Arcadia]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Wow, they expire a lot more quickly than I thought they would! I assumed that they would be good for at least a year or so. 

My county gave out the same ones and they expire in June 2022 too. So probably the same group of bulk orders. 
 

The ones we received are the iHealth ones. Their website says it cost $17.98 per box https://ihealthlabs.com

[Kassia]

5 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Wow, they expire a lot more quickly than I thought they would! I assumed that they would be good for at least a year or so. 

I was surprised to see that too.  I didn't even check the date when we received ours.  

[Tree Frog]

8 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Wow, it is even better today!!!

 

Let me do my own little happy dance about Wisconsin!

 

My dd's employer is going back to optional  in person beginning on Monday because of the numbers represented here. I believe in person will be masking. She's been missing people and is very excited!

[Longtime Lurker]

9 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Wow, it is even better today!!!

 

Let me do my own little happy dance about Wisconsin!

 

Go Michigan!!! Finally!

[El...]

Hey, I share the sentiment! We can't have memes and sundry of famous people on here, though, right? Gotta keep swb out of trouble. 🙂  @Faith-manor

Edited February 9, 2022 by elroisees
Editing because I don't know how to quote, apparently

[mommyoffive]

Covid-19 cases, hospitalizations still too high to change mask guidance, CDC director says (msn.com)

[Ali in OR]

Oregon is one of the states that will be dropping the indoor mask mandate at the end of March. They say schools too, but I think individual districts will make their own decisions. I'm guessing I will mask through the end of the year--life becomes much more difficult if I get sick. I'm planning to watch and observe what happens. We get daily emails on how many cases were reported in the school the previous 24 hours. It was 0 last week when teachers were working over semester break but students were not in the building. 3 today--everyone is back. I affectionately refer to the kids as "disease-ridden vermin"; I'm not unmasking around them!

[Guest]

On 2/7/2022 at 2:05 PM, Pam in CT said:

GO MARYLAND!!

Danielle & others -- were you hit hard in the earliest waves of Omicron and rolled through it before us, or did you manage through it better, or something else? 

(Asking on behalf of the NYC metropolitan area)

Hoping ORANGE is the new national trend...

Oh look! I’m proud of my state again! 😉

I think it’s mostly that we had such a mind-boggling surge here and in the district early on, it’s basically burning itself out (in a manner of speaking; I’m not suggesting we’re all done). This matches my boots-on-the-ground view of what’s going on. 
 

I just saw a quick headline yesterday that Maryland adults are vaccinated at 95% compliance. I did not get to read the article so I may not be saying that exactly right. But my anecdotal feeling is congruent with that map. 

[mommyoffive]

Covid-19 live updates: Fauci says U.S. exiting ‘full-blown’ pandemic; 500,000 deaths globally since omicron (msn.com)

[mommyoffive]

Wastewater: Taking surveillance to the next level (substack.com)

[mommyoffive]

You're more likely to die from COVID-19 in the US than other high income countries amid omicron, data suggests (msn.com)

 

Education secretary warns easing mask mandates too early can cause school disruptions (msn.com)

 

Sweden ends COVID-19 testing as pandemic restrictions lifted (msn.com)

[cintinative]

I don't know if I saw this posted.

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/riding-the-waves-a-framework-for

 

The table is helpful. 

While Ohio is going down in numbers, it really depends on your county/zip code whether your area is low transmission or not. For example, the zip code where our church is has a rate of 672/100,000.  Also our percent positive in that area is around 30% so even though the numbers are going down, we are not out of the woods, even though people are acting like that. I think there is a general mis-impression that having COVID means you won't get it again, so even some of my friends that have always masked have now stopped.  

Edited February 9, 2022 by cintinative

[mommyoffive]

Edited February 9, 2022 by mommyoffive

[Terabith]

I have two friends with covid:  wife is in lower 60's and had a couple days of feeling like she had a rotten cold, but it was during a blizzard, so she didn't get a test for a couple days.  She's steadily improved and going back to work today, five or six days later, feeling fine.  Her husband, who is 68 and has a zillion comorbidities, tested because his wife tested positive and is also positive.  He is more or less completely asymptomatic.  (He does have an occasional dry cough that he's had all winter, that he does every winter from heating system.)

So relieved that they seem to be coming through unscathed.  

ETA:  They are both vaccinated and boostered.  

Edited February 9, 2022 by Terabith

[bolt.]

My province suddenly announced a reduction in our covid protocols -- probably for political reasons. Our cases are at a high plateau, with hospitalizations also high but manageable. The death rate is also steady, but the government doesn't seem to care about that.

One of the protocols that was dropped was a proof-of-vaccination requirement in restaurants, gyms, theatres and similar spaces. This made some sense to me because vaccination is currently helpful-but-not-decisive. Many (not all) vaccinated people are nearly as vulnerable (though not quite) as unvaccinated people are if the exposure is significant (such as sitting and eating). Knowing this, we had made the decision not to dine indoors as vaccinated people, even though we were allowed to do so. Therefore I don't think releasing unvaccinated people to now do the same is going to cause a serious systemic difference in the numbers (though maybe in the ICU usage and eventual death totals).

Can someone check my thinking there? Am I rationalizing? Misunderstanding risk mitigation?

The other protocol that was dropped is masking in schools. (In a few weeks, it will be dropped as a provincial requirement everywhere.) To me, this is foolish. It is one of the most tightly-spaced long-sitting-exposure settings there could be. I think the outbreaks will be huge! In those classrooms I really think masks were helping a lot. Our government likes to make this sound pro-education, but to me it's the opposite... letting this rip through students, teachers and staff first, before any other people sounds just irrational. If keeping education going is what matters, masking is what has been working! Unmask some other people and let them go first!

I don't think there is anything I can do other than vote against him next time (he's probably out anyways) and hope for the best.

Personally (if anyone is following me) my daily energy is returning slowly, and I don't have a headache quite as often (still usually for at least part of most days) so I'm more confident that this is a "slow recovery" and not a "new normal".

[wathe]

43 minutes ago, bolt. said:

My province suddenly announced a reduction in our covid protocols -- probably for political reasons. Our cases are at a high plateau, with hospitalizations also high but manageable. The death rate is also steady, but the government doesn't seem to care about that.

One of the protocols that was dropped was a proof-of-vaccination requirement in restaurants, gyms, theatres and similar spaces. This made some sense to me because vaccination is currently helpful-but-not-decisive. Many (not all) vaccinated people are nearly as vulnerable (though not quite) as unvaccinated people are if the exposure is significant (such as sitting and eating). Knowing this, we had made the decision not to dine indoors as vaccinated people, even though we were allowed to do so. Therefore I don't think releasing unvaccinated people to now do the same is going to cause a serious systemic difference in the numbers (though maybe in the ICU usage and eventual death totals).

Can someone check my thinking there? Am I rationalizing? Misunderstanding risk mitigation?

The other protocol that was dropped is masking in schools. (In a few weeks, it will be dropped as a provincial requirement everywhere.) To me, this is foolish. It is one of the most tightly-spaced long-sitting-exposure settings there could be. I think the outbreaks will be huge! In those classrooms I really think masks were helping a lot. Our government likes to make this sound pro-education, but to me it's the opposite... letting this rip through students, teachers and staff first, before any other people sounds just irrational. If keeping education going is what matters, masking is what has been working! Unmask some other people and let them go first!

I don't think there is anything I can do other than vote against him next time (he's probably out anyways) and hope for the best.

Personally (if anyone is following me) my daily energy is returning slowly, and I don't have a headache quite as often (still usually for at least part of most days) so I'm more confident that this is a "slow recovery" and not a "new normal".

IIRC, hospitalizations in your province are at an all-time high, and case numbers are unreliable because of strict limits on testing.  Percent positivity is a very ugly 34%.  Are hospitals still cancelling surgeries and limiting procedures?  I don't think that removing public health protections is prudent at this time.

2 doses does decrease transmission somewhat.  Therefore, at a population level, a vaccine mandate for highest risk spaces (places where people are unmasked indoors, like restaurants and gyms) will decrease transmission and decrease strain on healthcare by a modest amount.  It's much too early to remove it.

I think that a more logical and prudent response would be to keep the vaccine mandate, and even to strengthen it by redefining fully vaccinated to include 3 doses - which really does meaningfully decrease transmission.  But that would be politically impossible in your province.

Removing mask mandates (especially in schools) is a very, very, very poor decision at this time.

I can't* see how this can possibly turn out well.  Deaths will increase.

*edited to fix critical typo

Edited February 9, 2022 by wathe

[Laura Corin]

Boris Johnson is in serious political trouble and is flailing around trying to get support from his anti-restriction MPs. All restrictions to be removed in England soon. Some places and services may still require masks but there won't be legal backing. Scotland is being more cautious.

[wathe]

Speaking of public health protections:

 

I would really, really like to see indoor air quality in publicly accessible spaces become a regulated public health and public safety issue.  

Publicly accessible spaces already have to meet fire-safety regulations (fire suppression systems, an adequate number of marked and unbstructed exits, capacity limits.). Restaurants have to meet food safety regulations.

I would like to see air quality added to the list.

It could be as simple as requiring public-facing real-time display of air quality markers (like Boston public schools), so consumers can make informed decisions.  

Or tying capacity to ventilation quality - if businesses want to increase  their capacity, then must have ventilation systems that can maintain adequate air quality for that capacity.  Governments could subsidize ventilation retrofits.  The beauty of this is that it's passive for consumers.  All consumers benefit without any effort on their part - whether or not they believe in it, or are anti-air quality - it doesn't matter.  

A combination of both would be ideal: regulations tying ventilation to capacity, and publicly facing displays to keep businesses honest.

Edited February 9, 2022 by wathe

[mommyoffive]

Canadian provinces lift COVID restrictions, protests remain (msn.com)

[mommyoffive]

Will one-way masking stop Covid spread? Here’s what experts say. (msn.com)

[KSera]

14 minutes ago, wathe said:

It could be as simple as requiring public-facing real-time display of air quality markers (like Boston public schools), so consumers can make informed decisions.  

 

Japan has been doing this and I totally agree it makes good sense and should be implemented. Why are we so behind on everything?

[Jaybee]

I just tested a clear positive on a home test. About 10 days ago, I thought I might have it, tested negative on a PCR, and was put on an antibiotic for a sinus infection. I finished the antibiotic this morning. I felt so good on Monday--it was incredible! Then yesterday afternoon I started having a scratchy throat seemingly caused by sinus drainage, and a mild headache. I thought, "Oh brother, here we go again." I didn't really want to use up one of our home tests, but I wasn't going to go in again so soon. And, of course, that's what they are for. But I feel very much like I do when my allergies start acting up in the spring, with a mild flare up.

So the test said to notify my pcp if it was positive, which I did. Do you know how accurate the positives are? But does anybody know what I do now? Just wait 5 days and test again? 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Jaybee said:

So the test said to notify my pcp if it was positive, which I did. Do you know how accurate the positives are? But does anybody know what I do now? Just wait 5 days and test again? 

Positives are real.

I think you only need to test in five days if you are asymptomatic by then and want to go out and about your business. 

[Longtime Lurker]

6 hours ago, wathe said:

Or tying capacity to ventilation quality - if businesses want to increase  their capacity, then must have ventilation systems that can maintain adequate air quality for that capacity.  Governments could subsidize ventilation retrofits.  The beauty of this is that it's passive for consumers.  All consumers benefit without any effort on their part - whether or not they believe in it, or are anti-air quality - it doesn't matter.  

A combination of both would be ideal: regulations tying ventilation to capacity, and publicly facing displays to keep businesses honest.

Yes! It benefits everyone with no compliance needed. I can't even imagine anyone on any side of any issue objecting to improving air quality.

[wathe]

48 minutes ago, Longtime Lurker said:

Yes! It benefits everyone with no compliance needed. I can't even imagine anyone on any side of any issue objecting to improving air quality.

 I’m sure a small business won’t like it as it will be expensive. I think it’s one of those things where you actually need a mandate to make it happen. If left up to individual businesses it won’t get done 

[SHP]

52 minutes ago, wathe said:

 I’m sure a small business won’t like it as it will be expensive. I think it’s one of those things where you actually need a mandate to make it happen. If left up to individual businesses it won’t get done 

I think, like all things, it will depend on the owner. Some have already taken steps for better air quality and some are still throwing fits over perceived violations of their rights because of masks. 

[melmichigan]

7 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Canadian provinces lift COVID restrictions, protests remain (msn.com)

My understanding is that the protest here in Michigan is in support of truckers in Canada, who are protesting vaccine mandates at the border.  It's a mess with the Ambassador Bridge closed to Canada because all truck traffic is being routed to the Blue Water Bridge. The whole surrounding county is at a standstill with the trucks lines up for miles and miles.  US truckers are now planning a protest similar to Ottawa for DC because of the upcoming US mandate at the border that goes into effect in March.

[vonfirmath]

32 minutes ago, SHP said:

I think, like all things, it will depend on the owner. Some have already taken steps for better air quality and some are still throwing fits over perceived violations of their rights because of masks. 

Our company added something to our individual AC units (which have a different name but I forget what they are called? Minisplits maybe?) early summer 2020 that I think at least helps with air quality.

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by vonfirmath

[wathe]

1 hour ago, melmichigan said:

My understanding is that the protest here in Michigan is in support of truckers in Canada, who are protesting vaccine mandates at the border.  It's a mess with the Ambassador Bridge closed to Canada because all truck traffic is being routed to the Blue Water Bridge. The whole surrounding county is at a standstill with the trucks lines up for miles and miles.  US truckers are now planning a protest similar to Ottawa for DC because of the upcoming US mandate at the border that goes into effect in March.

These protests/gong-shows are not going to turn out well personally for the participants.

They are going to find themselves uninsurable and unemployable - some will earn criminal records, will be unable to cross borders, will be unable to maintain a commercial driving license, will get fired or lose their contracts, owner-operators will lose their financing and lose their trucks. Their own trucking associations do not support them.

They are using commercial equipment for non-commercial purposes and for illegal activities. They are obstructing critical infrastructure.  And in Ottawa, they are terrorizing the resident down-town population in order to achieve political goals.  There's a word for that.

I feel just tiny little bit sorry for them.  I don't think they quite realize how very large the personal consequences for their behaviour will be.

[popmom]

37 minutes ago, wathe said:

They are obstructing critical infrastructure.  And in Ottawa, they are terrorizing the resident down-town population in order to achieve political goals.  There's a word for that.

 

Your description of this is very interesting to me. It’s interesting to me how easily the line between justice and politics is blurred. Both by those who are protesting and those who condemn them for it. 

[wathe]

40 minutes ago, popmom said:

Your description of this is very interesting to me. It’s interesting to me how easily the line between justice and politics is blurred. Both by those who are protesting and those who condemn them for it. 

I think it boils down to: When one engages in illegal activity as a form of protest, one must be prepared to suffer the consequences.  Which has been true forever, no matter what the cause.  

And I really believe that these protesters/occupiers have no idea of the magnitude of the consequences they are courting.

[MEmama]

9 hours ago, Longtime Lurker said:

Yes! It benefits everyone with no compliance needed. I can't even imagine anyone on any side of any issue objecting to improving air quality.

Sadly, I can. The same people who try to dismantle the works of the EPA, for example, and those who deny climate change. There are a lot of people— voters and government officials alike— who think any sort of regulation threatens their perceived “freedom”. If we’ve learned anything over the past years, the “threat” doesn’t have to be real to create enormous faux outrage. 

[MEmama]

4 hours ago, wathe said:

I think it boils down to: When one engages in illegal activity as a form of protest, one must be prepared to suffer the consequences.  Which has been true forever, no matter what the cause.  

And I really believe that these protesters/occupiers have no idea of the magnitude of the consequences they are courting.

I think just like in similar “protests” worldwide, they know what they are doing, they just don’t care. There’s no real platform, it’s just a mob mentality, and by and large they are getting away with it. There is no denying that were these indigenous protesters or a BLM protest or a climate change protest it would have been shut down almost immediately. We know, because that’s what happens. And these folks know the police is on their side (by and large), Trudeau will continue to sit on his hands, and they can terrorize freely in the name of freedom. They don’t even have a platform for goodness sakes, it’s just an excuse to wreak havoc. There won’t be significant consequences and they know it. The system is on their side and they feel emboldened. A few will be made martyrs of, but most will eventually leave on their own accord and the whole debacle will be swept under the rug and forgotten in time. 
 

 

[Ausmumof3]

16 hours ago, wathe said:

Speaking of public health protections:

 

I would really, really like to see indoor air quality in publicly accessible spaces become a regulated public health and public safety issue.  

Publicly accessible spaces already have to meet fire-safety regulations (fire suppression systems, an adequate number of marked and unbstructed exits, capacity limits.). Restaurants have to meet food safety regulations.

I would like to see air quality added to the list.

It could be as simple as requiring public-facing real-time display of air quality markers (like Boston public schools), so consumers can make informed decisions.  

Or tying capacity to ventilation quality - if businesses want to increase  their capacity, then must have ventilation systems that can maintain adequate air quality for that capacity.  Governments could subsidize ventilation retrofits.  The beauty of this is that it's passive for consumers.  All consumers benefit without any effort on their part - whether or not they believe in it, or are anti-air quality - it doesn't matter.  

A combination of both would be ideal: regulations tying ventilation to capacity, and publicly facing displays to keep businesses honest.

I strongly agree with this. I also think we’ll get there eventually but policy makers will have to be dragged kicking and screaming to it. Even all coral issues aside I notice how much mental focus improves for me with better air quality in my house. 

[Laura Corin]

On 2/2/2022 at 11:16 AM, Laura Corin said:

Two residents are symptomatic and have tested positive.  All the other residents have been tested and they are awaiting results. The home will be closed for at least ten days.

My mum has tested positive on a lateral flow test.  So far she just has a bit of a cough.  She is eating normally.

[Spryte]

1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

My mum has tested positive on a lateral flow test.  So far she just has a bit of a cough.  She is eating normally.

Oh no. So sorry to hear this. I hope it stays very mild for her.

[Laura Corin]

6 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Oh no. So sorry to hear this. I hope it stays very mild for her.

Thanks.  I'm able to visit the care home this evening.  They will PPE me up to keep me as safe as possible.  How is your MIL doing, @Spryte?

Edited February 10, 2022 by Laura Corin

[Spryte]

9 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Thanks.  I'm able to visit the care home this evening.  They will PPE me up to keep me as safe as possible.  How is your MIL doing, @Spryte?

So glad you will be able to visit! Stay safe!

Thus far, MIL is about the same. We are waiting on a nurse to call us back with an update. MIL doesn’t use the phone at all, so we will know more soon. FIL had a video call with her yesterday, and she mostly just wants to know where he is. 😊 (Her dementia is very advanced.) I am cautiously optimistic.

[Pam in CT]

re what engaging in Civil Disobedience protests means

7 hours ago, wathe said:

I think it boils down to: When one engages in illegal activity as a form of protest, one must be prepared to suffer the consequences.  Which has been true forever, no matter what the cause.  

And I really believe that these protesters/occupiers have no idea of the magnitude of the consequences they are courting.

Right.  We recently covered this ground fairly extensively on @Quill 's second Confederate Flag mondo thread.

Any act of Civil Disobedience -- whether it's sitting in the front of a bus/ at a lunch counter/ walking into a Whites Only municipal swimming pool; or entering a restricted area of a medical facility to protest abortion; or entering unauthorized into a courthouse to protest an act by LE against a black man; or entering the same courthouse unauthorized to intimidate DACA immigrants in renewal proceedings; whether it's planting unauthorized Confederate flags in a graveyard, or removing them -- whatever "side" the protest supports...

... "civil disobedience" has two parts:

1. The "civil" part, which means non-violent, even if -- as routinely happened to the pioneers of the method, violence is used against you; and
2. The "disobedience" part, which means you recognize that your action is against the law and are prepared to accept the consequences. 

Civil rights activists routinely kept a prison bag packed. 

Because if you break a law -- even non-violently, even if you are certain the law is unjust, even if your protest is surgically designed around that very law (as was the case with the bus and lunch counter protests -- and is very much NOT the case of the current protests, which aim against COVID restrictions, not policies around the interstate and cross-border commerce they are disrupting) -- you have to be prepared to take the consequences of that.

Immensely more so if you break a law violently, of course.

But activists are routinely arrested for failing to get a permit, disrupting traffic, wandering into unauthorized sections of federal or state buildings or hospitals and etc.

I dunno about the Canada side of this.  In the US, interfering with interstate commerce could well expose the truckers to federal consequences, and presumably there are state/local regulations about blocking traffic and etc. 

And for sure, using a COMPANY OWNED vehicle as a tool to engage in unlawful conduct adds a whole 'nuther layer to the potential consequences, both between Law and the companies whose property is so used, with or without consent; and between drivers and the companies.

I agree that it's highly likely that a lot of the drivers have not thought it all through.

 

 

[Pam in CT]

1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

My mum has tested positive on a lateral flow test.  So far she just has a bit of a cough.  She is eating normally.

I'm so sorry. Holding her in the light, physically and psychically. Glad you'll be able to get in to see her.

[livetoread]

9 hours ago, popmom said:

Your description of this is very interesting to me. It’s interesting to me how easily the line between justice and politics is blurred. Both by those who are protesting and those who condemn them for it. 

I've been thinking about this, too, and how I perceive protests as "legitimate" or not. I am not immune to brushing aside certain behavior by protestors if I overall support what they are protesting, while similar behavior by protestors supporting things I don't agree with makes me madder. I do think it's easy to allow the "how" to distract from the "why". In some cases, like violence and property destruction IMO, the why matters a lot, but often I've seen the narrative shift from the why to the how, and it distracts. Part of the problem, I guess, is disruptions get more attention. Protestors want attention, so the issue is how to get a lot of attention without it being too negative.

 

[Pam in CT]

re how we see protest activism depends on where we stand

3 minutes ago, livetoread said:

I've been thinking about this, too, and how I perceive protests as "legitimate" or not. I am not immune to brushing aside certain behavior by protestors if I overall support what they are protesting, while similar behavior by protestors supporting things I don't agree with makes me madder. I do think it's easy to allow the "how" to distract from the "why". In some cases, like violence and property destruction IMO, the why matters a lot, but often I've seen the narrative shift from the why to the how, and it distracts. Part of the problem, I guess, is disruptions get more attention. Protestors want attention, so the issue is how to get a lot of attention without it being too negative.

Absolutely; me too.

[Even putting aside protest confrontations that devolve into violence or destruction of property, which layer on stepped-up consequences, much more mixed "justice" ethics, and different optics/public perception/ backlash.... all of which make the how/why distractions much worse.]

But even on a roughly apples-to-apples wholly peaceful disruption, where traffic gets blocked, or a courtroom proceeding is briefly interrupted, or customers at a Broadway show or football game are subjected to a message they never asked for...

... it's hard to unravel how I perceive the "legitimacy" of a protest action from the content of what is being protested.  I expect that's natural, but it is, also, something to (try to) be self-aware of.

 

I do think that some activists / activist movements are far more aware of the "if you're gonna take action, be prepared to take the consequences" than others.  Part of that difference may be a function of a much longer, better documented, better organized "frame" of a longer historical struggle. 

Whereas the *astonishment and fury* that some pretty mainstream folks have expressed because 1/6 rioters who broke windows / smeared feces / stole property / beat police with flagpoles etc have been charged for that conduct is... weird to me.  Entitled?  Clueless? Something.  I mean, even if they do share the rioters' goals / perceive the grievances as "legitimate"... it can't really be surprising that there are legal consequences for the conduct.

[wathe]

4 hours ago, MEmama said:

I think just like in similar “protests” worldwide, they know what they are doing, they just don’t care. There’s no real platform, it’s just a mob mentality, and by and large they are getting away with it. There is no denying that were these indigenous protesters or a BLM protest or a climate change protest it would have been shut down almost immediately. We know, because that’s what happens. And these folks know the police is on their side (by and large), Trudeau will continue to sit on his hands, and they can terrorize freely in the name of freedom. They don’t even have a platform for goodness sakes, it’s just an excuse to wreak havoc. There won’t be significant consequences and they know it. The system is on their side and they feel emboldened. A few will be made martyrs of, but most will eventually leave on their own accord and the whole debacle will be swept under the rug and forgotten in time. 
 

 

I think that some of them know what they are doing - there is a very ugly under layer of white nationalism at play here that is very well organized.  Which is quite terrifying.  And certainly there is quite a lot of hooliganism going on too.  

But I really think that a majority of the protesters don't really get it.  They're being manipulated and they are in for a rude awakening.

I do think that there will be very heavy personal consequences for the individuals whose trucks are involved.  They are low-hanging fruit - they've been documented misbehaving, and their trucks' registration plates and other commercial information are right there.  (Maybe that's a naive hope, but I don't think so).   They will also have non-legal consequences with their insurers, banks and employers.  And civil law consequences - there is already a class action law suit that looks like its will have teeth (they've already gotten an injunction to stop honking).

Going after the well-organized bad actors will be more difficult, and I worry that they'll get away with it.

The political fall-out has already enormous, and will be long-lasting.  One particular political party is imploding.  

I think that you are  right that a BLM or indigenous protest would never have been permitted to entrench itself in this way, or be treated quite so politely by police. 

 

[Starr]

9 minutes ago, wathe said:

I think that some of them know what they are doing - there is a very ugly under layer of white nationalism at play here that is very well organized.  Which is quite terrifying.  And certainly there is quite a lot of hooliganism going on too.  

But I really think that a majority of the protesters don't really get it.  They're being manipulated and they are in for a rude awakening.

I do think that there will be very heavy personal consequences for the individuals whose trucks are involved.  They are low-hanging fruit - they've been documented misbehaving, and their trucks' registration plates and other commercial information are right there.  (Maybe that's a naive hope, but I don't think so).   They will also have non-legal consequences with their insurers, banks and employers.  And civil law consequences - there is already a class action law suit that looks like its will have teeth (they've already gotten an injunction to stop honking).

Going after the well-organized bad actors will be more difficult, and I worry that they'll get away with it.

The political fall-out has already enormous, and will be long-lasting.  One particular political party is imploding.  

I think that you are  right that a BLM or indigenous protest would never have been permitted to entrench itself in this way, or be treated quite so politely by police. 

 

How do you think this will come to an end? We live across the border from Ottawa. It's our go to city covid aside.

[mommyoffive]

Everyday is better and better!!!

I can't wait for more the sweep to continue after the whole country turns red.  orange.  yellow.  green.

 

[MEmama]

11 minutes ago, wathe said:

I think that some of them know what they are doing - there is a very ugly under layer of white nationalism at play here that is very well organized.  Which is quite terrifying.  And certainly there is quite a lot of hooliganism going on too.  

But I really think that a majority of the protesters don't really get it.  They're being manipulated and they are in for a rude awakening.

I do think that there will be very heavy personal consequences for the individuals whose trucks are involved.  They are low-hanging fruit - they've been documented misbehaving, and their trucks' registration plates and other commercial information are right there.  (Maybe that's a naive hope, but I don't think so).   They will also have non-legal consequences with their insurers, banks and employers.  And civil law consequences - there is already a class action law suit that looks like its will have teeth (they've already gotten an injunction to stop honking).

Going after the well-organized bad actors will be more difficult, and I worry that they'll get away with it.

The political fall-out has already enormous, and will be long-lasting.  One particular political party is imploding.  

I think that you are  right that a BLM or indigenous protest would never have been permitted to entrench itself in this way, or be treated quite so politely by police. 

 

The pawns are always the ones who pay. Not sure why they haven’t figured that out yet. But just like here, it’s not likely to amount to much; the protest will get reframed (here, building a gallows specifically to hang our Vice President and overtaking the capitol with the intention of murdering congresspeople is now known in one party as “legitimate political discourse”) and it will be difficult to bring down the real instigators, assuming there’s much political will when it comes down to trying.
 

I agree, the political fallout is the big concern, same as here. It’s utterly, terrifyingly dismaying.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

Whereas the *astonishment and fury* that some pretty mainstream folks have expressed because 1/6 rioters who broke windows / smeared feces / stole property / beat police with flagpoles etc have been charged for that conduct is... weird to me.  Entitled?  Clueless?

I just had flashing to my mind with this the 1/6 insurrectionist who was filmed on the news crying because she was tear gassed, saying, “They maced me! I made it a foot inside and they pushed me back out. We’re storming the Capitol. It’s a revolution!“ Entitled and clueless are entirely accurate. 

 

[Arcadia]

5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I strongly agree with this. I also think we’ll get there eventually but policy makers will have to be dragged kicking and screaming to it. Even all coral issues aside I notice how much mental focus improves for me with better air quality in my house. 

Schools need to upgrade their HVAC but district admin aren’t budgeting much for that. Some of my neighbors had their HVAC cleaned and it cost a tidy sum. My husband’s dept have moved office location a few times, each time to a newer location.