Duggar found GUILTY

[itsheresomewhere]

7 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Do you think that Jill and Derrick signed NDAs at some point?

Supposedly they did in the very beginning.  

Edited December 10, 2021 by itsheresomewhere

[Murphy101]

It’s a sad truth that some humans are rabid and the kindest thing is to put them down.  I know my church teachings but I have my own opinion too.

I think it’s easy to blame their church.  I mean I do bc they seem to have genuinely believed this was normal behavior and I’m just . W. T. F. They cray cray Over that.  

But also. These deviant evil people are all over the world, from all demographics, perpetuating this vileness.   I just don’t know how to combated that.  Is it some sick genetic factor? Is it media influence? (though it’s been around longer than media - centuries really). While this is awful and horrible. This stuff is being perpetuated and promoted and spread everywhere in the world in every demographic.

Josh is just a penny in the Grand Canyon when it comes to sexual exploitation and trafficking.  Who made the material? Where are those children? Has there been any effort to go up the supply chain? Probably not. For lots of frustrating reasons.

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Supposedly they did in the very beginning.  

I figured. I keep hearing people say Anna should write a tell all book and that would support her if she left, but I'm guessing ALL of them have signed NDAs and therefore writing a tell all or doing interviews or whatever is not an option. Derrick seems VERY careful of his wording, and I'm betting that is more about not violating the terms of the agreement than about being polite to his in laws. Like rather than calling Jim Bob a lying SOB he instead quotes a bible verse about those who support the wicked, and leaves it for us to know who he means. 

Now, maybe with his legal background and contacts he will find a way around the NDA, but Anna certainly doesn't have that level of legal sophistication. IF Derrick finds a way to break it, then maybe she'd have a path to follow. 

But otherwise, I'd assume that a tell all book will not be coming due to things they already signed. Probably also signed some kind of non  compete contract as well, although with Counting On canceled that may not be an issue? 

I also don't know how NDAs apply to criminal behavior - like I'd think they could maybe say what Josh did, and anything illegal their parents did, but not just immoral stuff (aka their entire upbringing). 

[DawnM]

27 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I won't say what was in the video. I have read the physical descriptions of it. It made me sick; it is beyond words. There can be no "pity" for Joshua James Duggar. He downloaded those things and according to prosecution watched them over and over again. They could tell from his computer how many times they were viewed. One child was only 3 months old.

A monster is being put away, and I am beyond grateful for this. It is actually sad to me that he will have an opportunity to get out and do it again. I truly feel that consumers of CSAM should go to prison for the rest of their natural lives. It might be the only arena in which I am supportive of the death penalty, and that is for the creators of it.

This began with a 12 year old who might have been able to be reached, and helped off that path. It began with sisters assaulted multiple times over three years, and evil, disgusting, criminal parents who looked the other way, and then later went on national t.v. and said it wasn't a big deal and a lot of people at church told them boys sexually assaulting their sister is normal, that many of them have had this "problem". 

JB and Michelle need to go to jail. CPS and police need to investigate everyone in that church. And it should be noted that the infamous trooper who ended up being sentenced to 56 years for CSAM had confessed to the elders (JB being one of them) in order to get his " forgive and forget " from the cult, and then went on to be allowed to TEACH in the church before he got caught the second time around on so many counts that he isn't likely coming out of that prison alive. JB and company did this.

Burn it down. IBLP/ATI/Gothard, the poster families of Bates, Kellers, and Duggars, they are all criminal, immoral dumpster fires. And the few that stood up to be counted, like the Holts, were ostracized for daring to stand up for what is right. The church was mad at them for outing Josh as "the sin in the camp", for telling JB that he needed to take his son to the police and get help for his daughters.

And remember, CPS tried to interview the Duggar kids after the allegations came out, and they refused to allow it. No charges were brought against them, no court orders mandating it. (Looking at you Arkansas local authorities for the most profound lack of DOING YOUR JOB, ever! Good grief, you had public professions of the crimes and the cover up!!!!!) 

Maybe, had the whole thing been stopped when Josh was 12, I would have felt something along the lines of pity or sympathy for him. He was a boy after all. But, he is 33 and every step of the way has demonstrated a sociopathic, malignant narcissism and sinister need to continually ramp up his addiction, creating a stream of victims, and accepting zero responsibility, smiling like a happy creep for his mug shots each time. Nope. Emotional energy saved for the next step. Seeing JimBob taken down, and hopefully, a mass exit by many families from IBLP. I hope Derrick and Jill will lead the way with a book. She doesn't owe anyone her private perspective and pain, but IF she chooses it, if she feels strong enough, it could really help expose the whole thing to wide audience.

Yes, I read an article that said he should have a diagnosis of a sociopath.   I will have to find the article later.

[Excelsior! Academy]

11 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Who made the material? Where are those children? Has there been any effort to go up the supply chain? Probably not. For lots of frustrating reasons

This.  Have there been an efforts to save these poor children?  Is it possible to even find or identify them?

[gardenmom5]

5 minutes ago, Excelsior! Academy said:

This.  Have there been an efforts to save these poor children?  Is it possible to even find or identify them?

these particular children? I don't know.

I do there there is a guy who quit his job at CIA to go after the traffickers.  The "makers" of this filth.  And he has done it at risk for his own life at times. I don't remember the name of his organization he founded. (he doesn't do this alone.)

[Faith-manor]

14 minutes ago, Excelsior! Academy said:

This.  Have there been an efforts to save these poor children?  Is it possible to even find or identify them?

There are task forces that work on this all the time. Usually a task force is two fold, investigators who go after the consumers and prosecute, and their colleagues who try to track the creators and victims. A lot of this stuff is made in countries where it is pretty hard to intervene. The worst video Duggar watched as made in the Philippines and then distributed on the dark web. An international task force did find the children a real miracle if you ask me. One died of his/her injuries, and I won't say more about that because it will make you puke. 

A lot of what is on the net is also not necessarily new, just distributed over and over again for consumption, so in some cases the creators were found a long time ago, but consumers have the images and keep reposting them on the dark web.

I cannot imagine the level of burnout and trauma these investigators experience. They are true heroes!

[Murphy101]

23 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

There are task forces that work on this all the time. Usually a task force is two fold, investigators who go after the consumers and prosecute, and their colleagues who try to track the creators and victims. A lot of this stuff is made in countries where it is pretty hard to intervene. The worst video Duggar watched as made in the Philippines and then distributed on the dark web. An international task force did find the children a real miracle if you ask me. One died of his/her injuries, and I won't say more about that because it will make you puke. 

A lot of what is on the net is also not necessarily new, just distributed over and over again for consumption, so in some cases the creators were found a long time ago, but consumers have the images and keep reposting them on the dark web.

I cannot imagine the level of burnout and trauma these investigators experience. They are true heroes!

This. I won’t watch any of it or read about it. Just not something I can do.

But I think if someone watches a child being raped and/or murdered and they do nothing to report it (which is basically what Josh and others who downloaded that abomination stuff do) I think they should get some kind of prison sentence for complicity and perpetuation of that. 

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

ut otherwise, I'd assume that a tell all book will not be coming due to things they already signed. Probably also signed some kind of non  compete contract as well, although with Counting On canceled that may not be an issue

In many states, a non-compete can be enforceable long after parting ways, regardless of which side cut ties.
(It’s gross and was supposed to be an agenda item to be tackled federally, but we know how those things go.)

[Farrar]

As I understand it, often there are efforts to find the people who created the material and the victims of its creation, but often they're not in the US, which makes it exponentially harder - both to find and to do much about.

[busymama7]

Two different things have been stated in this thread. One that the prosecution stated he watched things over and over and one that he downloaded a 33 min video, watched 20some seconds and then deleted it.  Are these maybe about different things and both true or what? I'm just curious. Also someone stated most of what was on there was legal, so was there a bunch of "normal" p*rn too? Again mostly just curious but don't have the stomach to go looking for details.  Just glad he was convicted. 

[Annie G]

2 hours ago, Excelsior! Academy said:

This.  Have there been an efforts to save these poor children?  Is it possible to even find or identify them?

They know who manufactured the ‘worst of the worst’ that Josh downloaded, and he’s in jail in the Philippines.  The videos were well known.  I believe some victims were located. 

[Faith-manor]

46 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

Two different things have been stated in this thread. One that the prosecution stated he watched things over and over and one that he downloaded a 33 min video, watched 20some seconds and then deleted it.  Are these maybe about different things and both true or what? I'm just curious. Also someone stated most of what was on there was legal, so was there a bunch of "normal" p*rn too? Again mostly just curious but don't have the stomach to go looking for details.  Just glad he was convicted. 

Different things. There were two videos, but then another dump of photos. So the prosecution had to talk them separately. It cam be confusing.

[Arcadia]

4 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

 Who made the material? Where are those children? Has there been any effort to go up the supply chain? Probably not. For lots of frustrating reasons.

 

4 hours ago, Excelsior! Academy said:

This.  Have there been an efforts to save these poor children?  Is it possible to even find or identify them?

 

1 hour ago, Annie G said:

They know who manufactured the ‘worst of the worst’ that Josh downloaded, and he’s in jail in the Philippines.  The videos were well known.  I believe some victims were located. 

Thailand has a lot of child exploitation too of this nature. 
 

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/resources/reports/child-labor/thailand

Categorical Worst Forms of Child Labor‡

Commercial sexual exploitation, including use in the production of pornography, sometimes as a result of human trafficking

[itsheresomewhere]

Other news about the duggars that might help the shutdown of running for senate- Jana Duggar is charged with endangering the welfare of a minor.  This happened in September and her court date is in January.   

[WildflowerMom]

What?? I haven’t heard that.  What is she accused of?

[itsheresomewhere]

Just now, WildflowerMom said:

What?? I haven’t heard that.  What is she accused of?

It came known earlier today. The FJ site found the court date and such.  No other details so far.  

[Faith-manor]

8 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

It came known earlier today. The FJ site found the court date and such.  No other details so far.  

Just be careful of free jinger. They announce a lot of stuff that Katie Joy and a couple of others have said, and then end up retracting. Unless this is confirmed by a source like MCCandless with KNWA, I would assume it is a rumor and nothing more. I will say as 30 year old adult living in that house fully aware of what her brother did and what her parents covered up, she now has culpability if anything else happens to minors in that house. And of course because Tyler was placed with them by social services and they have guardianship not adoptive rights, they probably already have a social worker they deal with to some degree. One slip up....that girl seriously needs to get the neck out. She could probably find roommates, and even fast food is offering higher wages than minimum wage. Without children to support, she could manage this. Get out, Jana! Get out!!

[Scarlett]

4 hours ago, busymama7 said:

Two different things have been stated in this thread. One that the prosecution stated he watched things over and over and one that he downloaded a 33 min video, watched 20some seconds and then deleted it.  Are these maybe about different things and both true or what? I'm just curious. Also someone stated most of what was on there was legal, so was there a bunch of "normal" p*rn too? Again mostly just curious but don't have the stomach to go looking for details.  Just glad he was convicted. 

I was going to ask this same question.

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I was going to ask this same question.

Hey Scarlett, I did answer that about four posts after it was asked. It is in there somewhere.

[Faith-manor]

Well, okay, IF In Touch Weekly is to be believed, they are claiming it was co firmed by the Elm Springs County Clerk. She is being charged with Class A and B Misdemeanors which can come with jail or fines.

[itsheresomewhere]

4 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Just be careful of free jinger. They announce a lot of stuff that Katie Joy and a couple of others have said, and then end up retracting. Unless this is confirmed by a source like MCCandless with KNWA, I would assume it is a rumor and nothing more. I will say as 30 year old adult living in that house fully aware of what her brother did and what her parents covered up, she now has culpability if anything else happens to minors in that house. And of course because Tyler was placed with them by social services and they have guardianship not adoptive rights, they probably already have a social worker they deal with to some degree. One slip up....that girl seriously needs to get the neck out. She could probably find roommates, and even fast food is offering higher wages than minimum wage. Without children to support, she could manage this. Get out, Jana! Get out!!

They have the information straight from the court’s website. 

[maize]

I have wondered how Tyler came to be placed with them. I know they're family, and I'm guessing this was their way to that nice even number of twenty children, but...wasn't there some better option for him?

[WildflowerMom]

Who’s Tyler?

[itsheresomewhere]

6 minutes ago, maize said:

I have wondered how Tyler came to be placed with them. I know they're family, and I'm guessing this was their way to that nice even number of twenty children, but...wasn't there some better option for him?

There had to be other options.  I guess is that the system there is overwhelmed and that is a factor in his placement. 

[Faith-manor]

9 minutes ago, maize said:

I have wondered how Tyler came to be placed with them. I know they're family, and I'm guessing this was their way to that nice even number of twenty children, but...wasn't there some better option for him?

It is that preference to family thing. Here, the court will look the other way on tremendous crap if the child can be placed with family, and especially if they can get that family to take the child without the foster payments.

[Annie G]

45 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Other news about the duggars that might help the shutdown of running for senate- Jana Duggar is charged with endangering the welfare of a minor.  This happened in September and her court date is in January.   

No idea what Jana actually did, but in our county that’s the charge they list when a kid isn’t in a car seat or isn’t wearing a seatbelt. So it might be something quite minor like that. Not defending kids riding unsecured, but in comparison to her sex offender brother…

[itsheresomewhere]

21 minutes ago, Annie G said:

No idea what Jana actually did, but in our county that’s the charge they list when a kid isn’t in a car seat or isn’t wearing a seatbelt. So it might be something quite minor like that. Not defending kids riding unsecured, but in comparison to her sex offender brother…

I don’t anyone here is comparing this to what her brother did.  I did say I hope this is another nail in the coffin for JB’s campaign for senate.  

Edited December 10, 2021 by itsheresomewhere

[Annie G]

15 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

I don’t anyone here is comparing this to what her brother did.  I did say I hope this is another nail in the coffin for JD’s campaign for senate.  

I didn’t think anyone would  compare but rather wanted to avoid someone reminding me that no seat belt can cause death. 
Oh my gosh, there can’t be any way he’s going to win that election, can there?????

Edited December 10, 2021 by Annie G

[TechWife]

Just now, Annie G said:

Oh my gosh, there can’t be any way he’s going to win that election, can there?????

Oh, indeed there is. The head in the sand/persecution complex contingent is out there.

[itsheresomewhere]

Just now, Annie G said:

Oh my gosh, there can’t be any way he’s going to win that election, can there?????

I hope not.  But there are still people who like them and think they are being persecuted for being Christians. 

[Terabith]

Okay, so why would JANA be charged with endangering the welfare of a minor and not Jim Bob or Michelle?  Unless it was something like in a vehicle?  

[itsheresomewhere]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Okay, so why would JANA be charged with endangering the welfare of a minor and not Jim Bob or Michelle?  Unless it was something like in a vehicle?  

It could be anything from not buckled in a car seat to a small child wandering away from the home.  

[Annie G]

The Jana thing might be something more interesting than an unbuckled child since  KNWA is reporting the posted $430 bail/bond.  But still it’s a misdemeanor, so probably no big deal. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Annie G

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I was going to ask this same question.

Scarlett and @busymama7, I've been trying to find what I read about the 30+ minute video being deleted after about 30 seconds of viewing. I know it was in a news article about the trial (not on comments on Reddit, etc.)

This isn't the exact article I read, but it says much the same thing:

"Under questioning by defense attorney Justin Gelfand, [defense witness] Bush softened or pruned back some of the prosecution's case about the child pornography. One torrented file, '[edited out title],' about an infant, was not viewed, she believed. Another set of lewd images were extracted but not individually opened.

And on the last of the three days in 2019 when Duggar is accused of accessing the sexual abuse material, one of the videos was viewed for approximately 30 seconds before being deleted."

ETA: I know there are questions about the reliability of Bush's testimony, but unless I missed it, I don't think anyone disputed her on these particular points.

Edited December 10, 2021 by MercyA

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, WildflowerMom said:

Who’s Tyler?

A great-nephew adopted by Jim Bob and Michelle in 2016. I make no claims as to the reliability of the info found here: https://19andcounting.fandom.com/wiki/Tyler_Hutchins

but it looks like just the basic facts.

Edited December 10, 2021 by MercyA

[WildflowerMom]

2 minutes ago, MercyA said:

A great-nephew adopted by Jim Bob and Michelle in 2016. I make no claims as to the reliability of the info found here: https://19andcounting.fandom.com/wiki/Tyler_Hutchins

but it looks like just the basic facts.

Awww, he's the cutest!! 🥰.  Reminds me a bit of my boy. 🥰🥰🥰

[prairiewindmomma]

31 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

It could be anything from not buckled in a car seat to a small child wandering away from the home.  

...or leaving a child unsupervised with a sex offender, or failing to report abuse. That would do it too.

Edited December 10, 2021 by prairiewindmomma

[HomeAgain]

1 hour ago, itsheresomewhere said:

I don’t anyone here is comparing this to what her brother did.  I did say I hope this is another nail in the coffin for JB’s campaign for senate.  

I don't think JB is running with the chance to win.  I think he's running with the intention to raise funds.

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, maize said:

I have wondered how Tyler came to be placed with them. I know they're family, and I'm guessing this was their way to that nice even number of twenty children, but...wasn't there some better option for him?

I read that he was initially with his grandma, but then she had a stroke and could no longer care for him.

[MercyA]

5 hours ago, Annie G said:

They know who manufactured the ‘worst of the worst’ that Josh downloaded, and he’s in jail in the Philippines.  The videos were well known.  I believe some victims were located. 

7 hours ago, Excelsior! Academy said:

This.  Have there been an efforts to save these poor children?  Is it possible to even find or identify them?

Also for @Murphy101.

There were three main children in the "worst of the worst" video and they were located. One was murdered, one was left with permanent injuries, one is physically okay (AFAIK). Perp and his girlfriend both have life sentences.

So sad.

Edited December 10, 2021 by MercyA

[prairiewindmomma]

My understanding is that JB and Michelle haven't adopted him, they just have permanent custody and that birth mom still has visitation rights.  She voluntarily surrendered custody to her mother (Tyler's grandma, Carolyn) before her last prison stint. When Carolyn (Michelle's sister) had a stroke, Carolyn then placed Tyler with her sister Michelle and family. 

[itsheresomewhere]

24 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

My understanding is that JB and Michelle haven't adopted him, they just have permanent custody and that birth mom still has visitation rights.  She voluntarily surrendered custody to her mother (Tyler's grandma, Carolyn) before her last prison stint. When Carolyn (Michelle's sister) had a stroke, Carolyn then placed Tyler with her sister Michelle and family. 

I don’t think they have either.  Especially, with the disgusting views on adopting kids the cult has.  

[Slache]

10 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

I don’t think they have either.  Especially, with the disgusting views on adopting kids the cult has.  

What are those?

[mommyoffive]

Jana Duggar Charged with Endangering the Welfare of a Minor | PEOPLE.com

[DawnM]

30 minutes ago, Slache said:

What are those?

I know, I know, I know!

Back in the day when Gothard was semi-normal in Christian circles, my parents went to a "Basic Youth Conference" seminar.   I was dragged along.   Bill Gothard got up and said that you shouldn't adopt children because the Bible says the sins of the father will be passed along to the son, and you don't know what kind of sins you might be dealing with.

My adopted mind was so upset I walked out and begged my parents to take me home.   

[itsheresomewhere]

5 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I know, I know, I know!

Back in the day when Gothard was semi-normal in Christian circles, my parents went to a "Basic Youth Conference" seminar.   I was dragged along.   Bill Gothard got up and said that you shouldn't adopt children because the Bible says the sins of the father will be passed along to the son, and you don't know what kind of sins you might be dealing with.

My adopted mind was so upset I walked out and begged my parents to take me home.   

Exactly. 

[ktgrok]

8 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I know, I know, I know!

Back in the day when Gothard was semi-normal in Christian circles, my parents went to a "Basic Youth Conference" seminar.   I was dragged along.   Bill Gothard got up and said that you shouldn't adopt children because the Bible says the sins of the father will be passed along to the son, and you don't know what kind of sins you might be dealing with.

My adopted mind was so upset I walked out and begged my parents to take me home.   

One more reason Anna is likely devesated. Not only is she dealing with the normal emotions of something like this, but has to worry about the sins of the father - josh- being passed down to her children. Ick. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

8 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I know, I know, I know!

Back in the day when Gothard was semi-normal in Christian circles, my parents went to a "Basic Youth Conference" seminar.   I was dragged along.   Bill Gothard got up and said that you shouldn't adopt children because the Bible says the sins of the father will be passed along to the son, and you don't know what kind of sins you might be dealing with.

My adopted mind was so upset I walked out and begged my parents to take me home.   

My parents tell a story of going to the basic youth conference in the mid 80s, maybe 86?  They were just starting to homeschool and were invited by their homeschooling mentors, who had a bunch of well behaved homeschooled teenage children and appeared to be every parents’ dream.  In any case, they went and afterward, my dad looked at my mom and said, “Well, that was weird.”  My mom agreed and that was the end of Gothardism, though they had the animal character books and some other material for a long time. 
They got sucked into some other parts of the homeschooling fundamentalist culture, but at least I was spared ATI.

[Slache]

13 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I know, I know, I know!

Back in the day when Gothard was semi-normal in Christian circles, my parents went to a "Basic Youth Conference" seminar.   I was dragged along.   Bill Gothard got up and said that you shouldn't adopt children because the Bible says the sins of the father will be passed along to the son, and you don't know what kind of sins you might be dealing with.

My adopted mind was so upset I walked out and begged my parents to take me home.   

Oh my gosh that's absolutely insane! Thank you for clarifying.

2 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

My parents tell a story of going to the basic youth conference in the mid 80s, maybe 86?  They were just starting to homeschool and were invited by their homeschooling mentors, who had a bunch of well behaved homeschooled teenage children and appeared to be every parents’ dream.  In any case, they went and afterward, my dad looked at my mom and said, “Well, that was weird.”  My mom agreed and that was the end of Gothardism, though they had the animal character books and some other material for a long time. 
They got sucked into some other parts of the homeschooling fundamentalist culture, but at least I was spared ATI.

Are the animal books good? I've always wanted them, but I feel like they're tied to yuckiness.