wuhan - coronavirus

[bolt.]

2 hours ago, Mom2mthj said:

That seems ridiculous and anti-Christian that they allow movie theatres, but not churches.  Pretty sad state of affairs that churches are on board with this plan.  The Detroit area has been hard hit, but, thankfully, even here our Archbishop will start reopening Catholic Churches will start reopening the 19th with social distancing between family groups/masks at a capacity based on the size of the building....I believe 25%.  Our church has more seating capacity than most movie theatres I have been to in recent years.  People will likely be dismissed by row and not allowed to stand around and talk afterwards.  Masses outside are also encouraged so that the parish doesn’t have to clean as much.  Going to Mass is not just attending some social club and has more meaning than just going to interact with friends.

I don't think that it is anti-Christian to view worship services differently than movie theatres of the same capacity.

It aknowledges that religious worship gatherings are unique. Church services (and I imagine other religions too) have elements of closeness, warmth, and family-like behaviour. They involve celebration, worship, and even a shared eating experience that are completely absent among individuals who happen to be gathered in a room to view a screen.

If people want to, perhaps they could stream a worship service *using* a movie theatre as the venue. As long as the people acted like an audience (no singing along, no sharing the Lord's supper, etc) and didn't socialize afterwards (no matter how much the love one another and have missed each other), they could probably have that movie-theatre-equivalent experience. But, imagining that, I think we can all notice that it isn't a normal way to worship and/or go-to-mass. The normal ways we worship are different from the normal way we go to movies -- even if the group size was the same.

[The Governess]

Saw a news article today about antibody levels in Spain and France. Using the worldometer numbers of deaths for those countries and the percentages given in the article, you get a fatality rate of 0.91% for France and 1.16% for Spain (not sure why there is such a large discrepancy between worldometer’s number of deaths for France - over 27k - and the 16k cited in the article).

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1206821

 

[SKL]

I've seen this in multiple places.  Is it true?  I don't have a link, but I've read that Cuomo took some action (some time ago) that required nursing homes to take in people who had tested positive for Covid19.  The results are unsurprising.

I'm so disappointed in how we've failed people in so many nursing homes.  If the focus had been on those people at highest risk, maybe the death toll would be a lot lower.

I am also concerned about new policies to move homeless people off the streets into buildings that involve living in close quarters.  What science indicates that being indoors in close quarters is protective from Covid19?

[Selkie]

Look for a surge in cases in Wisconsin in the near future. The governor's safer-at-home order was struck down as unconstitutional yesterday. Within an hour of the ruling, bars were open and packed. I live right over the border in Illinois and saw the Facebook pics this morning. People were packed in shoulder to shoulder and there was not a mask in sight, not even on the servers.

[EmseB]

15 minutes ago, SKL said:

I've seen this in multiple places.  Is it true?  I don't have a link, but I've read that Cuomo took some action (some time ago) that required nursing homes to take in people who had tested positive for Covid19.  The results are unsurprising.

I'm so disappointed in how we've failed people in so many nursing homes.  If the focus had been on those people at highest risk, maybe the death toll would be a lot lower.

I am also concerned about new policies to move homeless people off the streets into buildings that involve living in close quarters.  What science indicates that being indoors in close quarters is protective from Covid19?

Yes, Cuomo did that. So did PA's governor, while at the same time pulling her own mom out of a nursing home.

3 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Look for a surge in cases in Wisconsin in the near future. The governor's safer-at-home order was struck down as unconstitutional yesterday. Within an hour of the ruling, bars were open and packed. I live right over the border in Illinois and saw the Facebook pics this morning. People were packed in shoulder to shoulder and there was not a mask in sight, not even on the servers.

So I have seen a lot of times over the last few weeks (on Twitter especially) where people see an event or an opening of something and then say to look for the subsequent spike in cases. Are these spikes getting documented? Are they happening? 

How is Florida doing compared to NY? Is Georgia having spikes after they opened stuff before everyone else?

[Selkie]

8 minutes ago, EmseB said:

So I have seen a lot of times over the last few weeks (on Twitter especially) where people see an event or an opening of something and then say to look for the subsequent spike in cases. Are these spikes getting documented? Are they happening? 

How is Florida doing compared to NY? Is Georgia having spikes after they opened stuff before everyone else?

Here's one I just saw yesterday:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8317001/Reopened-Texas-sees-surge-new-COVID-19-cases.html

[Jean in Newcastle]

I seriously want to move to New Zealand. 

[Pen]

Maybe already posted— about children’s cases. More older kids having troubles than I had realized.  Might affect people’s thoughts about camp etc:

https://time.com/5836085/new-york-child-coronavirus-syndrome/

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I seriously want to move to New Zealand. 

 

Me too.  

[Pen]

The pediatric situation seems to be in the category of wondering how many strange cases does it take to get notice.  Now that it is getting recognized a bunch staff   of pediatric ICU s are saying they have had cases like that too.  

 

[vonfirmath]

15 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Here's one I just saw yesterday:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8317001/Reopened-Texas-sees-surge-new-COVID-19-cases.html

The graph on that seems like the new cases is remaining steady. The cumulative cases are increasing, yes. Until there are no new cases that's going to continue.

Edited May 14, 2020 by vonfirmath

[EmseB]

6 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Here's one I just saw yesterday:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8317001/Reopened-Texas-sees-surge-new-COVID-19-cases.html

I'm having trouble reading that on my phone because of the ads, but what is a difference between a surge and a spike? I ask because our county has been in SIP since March and we are just now seeing cases go up. So I would say we are having a surge locally, but I don't know how that reads as a headline when the things Texas has opened up have been closed here the whole time. Also, Texas is huge, so it seems like it would be hard to know what's exactly going on with just state numbers?

Are we not expecting to see more cases after opening some things up? I guess this goes back to the old thread about are we flattening the curve or trying to stop the spread completely and how any of this gets reported.

[TCB]

4 minutes ago, kand said:

It’s too soon to know. It’s expected to take about a month between social distancing behaviors changing and seeing the results.  Hopefully a lot of the places that have opened had low enough numbers before doing so that there won’t be a spike. Some places opened that did not have low numbers though, so that’s worrisome.

It seems that people often adjust their behavior despite, or without, official orders though. So if people perceive there to be a risk they may continue with measures to protect themselves and others. I saw an article that linked 70 cases of covid with the protest held in Wisconsin on April 24th I think. I wish there was someone keeping track and reporting these things without an agenda. The Daily Mail article linked above stated the number of cases per day for the last 5 days, in Texas but didn't say what they were before then, or at least I didn't see that - please correct me if it is there. If they were lower before then it would strengthen their case about what they think is happening, so it makes me suspicious that they haven't risen as much as they are trying to imply. Do they think we are stupid and won't notice an omission like that? Maybe I'm the stupid one lol and didn't see it but it was there.

I'm really worried about what is going to happen and it seems almost inevitable that it's not going to be good, but inaccurate and biased reporting don't help. Then again, I ask myself, why would the Daily Mail want to inflate figures? I guess to sell papers etc? I honestly hate what the media has become! It's so hard to sift through for truth.

[Joker]

7 minutes ago, Pen said:

The pediatric situation seems to be in the category of wondering how many strange cases does it take to get notice.  Now that it is getting recognized a bunch staff   of pediatric ICU s are saying they have had cases like that too.  

 

My mom works in a hospital system here in the Midwest. On a call this morning, she was told our Children’s hospital has a few cases. They presented with the syndrome type stuff NYC has talked about and they all tested positive for Covid antibodies. So, I definitely think it’s going to start being noticed everywhere.

[itsheresomewhere]

31 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Yes, Cuomo did that. So did PA's governor, while at the same time pulling her own mom out of a nursing home.

So did NJ ( it wasn’t the governor but the health person).  Some here are calling for for those who did to be prosecuted for it.  It will be interesting to see how this is handled down the road or if they sweep it under the rug. 

[Matryoshka]

21 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

So did NJ ( it wasn’t the governor but the health person).  Some here are calling for for those who did to be prosecuted for it.  It will be interesting to see how this is handled down the road or if they sweep it under the rug. 

This seems like such a horrible idea.  They should have had at least emptied one or more out and set aside just for Coronavirus patients with a dedicated staff.  It's been obvious for a while, that especially with the PPE problems, you can't contain it within a building with close quarters and staff going in/out like nursing homes (or cruise ships) have.

We've also had very bad outbreaks here in nursing homes, but the really bad ones I know about the nursing home staff was hiding it from the govt, and the state/town got wind of it and swooped in, and there are already multiple lawsuits.  I don't think there were sick patients transported in for those cases, but I'm not sure if it ever happened other places?  

Edited May 14, 2020 by Matryoshka

[EmseB]

49 minutes ago, TCB said:

It seems that people often adjust their behavior despite, or without, official orders though. So if people perceive there to be a risk they may continue with measures to protect themselves and others. I saw an article that linked 70 cases of covid with the protest held in Wisconsin on April 24th I think. I wish there was someone keeping track and reporting these things without an agenda. The Daily Mail article linked above stated the number of cases per day for the last 5 days, in Texas but didn't say what they were before then, or at least I didn't see that - please correct me if it is there. If they were lower before then it would strengthen their case about what they think is happening, so it makes me suspicious that they haven't risen as much as they are trying to imply. Do they think we are stupid and won't notice an omission like that? Maybe I'm the stupid one lol and didn't see it but it was there.

I'm really worried about what is going to happen and it seems almost inevitable that it's not going to be good, but inaccurate and biased reporting don't help. Then again, I ask myself, why would the Daily Mail want to inflate figures? I guess to sell papers etc? I honestly hate what the media has become! It's so hard to sift through for truth.

Is this what you saw about the WI protest? I can't find anything that says any of those cases were actually linked to it. I can't even figure out what is considered a large gathering for the purposes of contact tracing or that the gathering was the same one for all who tested positive or not. But it says:

"However, it is not possible to say if any of these cases trace back to the rally as the health department is not tracking attendance of specific events."

I guess this is an example of frustration in media reporting? The headline cleary seeks to link the protest to the cases, but the article says they can't. The health department says they won't. I feel like super spreader events can be clearly discovered and determined, but this isn't it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

8 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Is this what you saw about the WI protest? I can't find anything that says any of those cases were actually linked to it. I can't even figure out what is considered a large gathering for the purposes of contact tracing or that the gathering was the same one for all who tested positive or not. But it says:

"However, it is not possible to say if any of these cases trace back to the rally as the health department is not tracking attendance of specific events."

I guess this is an example of frustration in media reporting? The headline cleary seeks to link the protest to the cases, but the article says they can't. The health department says they won't. I feel like super spreader events can be clearly discovered and determined, but this isn't it.

Just using your post as a springboard for random musing:  Unless they do extensive contract tracing, can they really know?  My state has only now come out with contact tracing guidelines.  I wonder about other states. I know there was some contact tracing otherwise we wouldn't know about super spreader events but it doesn't seem like something that is done as a matter of course?

[TCB]

26 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Is this what you saw about the WI protest? I can't find anything that says any of those cases were actually linked to it. I can't even figure out what is considered a large gathering for the purposes of contact tracing or that the gathering was the same one for all who tested positive or not. But it says:

"However, it is not possible to say if any of these cases trace back to the rally as the health department is not tracking attendance of specific events."

I guess this is an example of frustration in media reporting? The headline cleary seeks to link the protest to the cases, but the article says they can't. The health department says they won't. I feel like super spreader events can be clearly discovered and determined, but this isn't it.

The one I read, which may be the one you linked, said that they had asked the question " Have you been in a large gathering?" , but they didn't ask where the gathering was. I think, because of the location and because there had not been large gatherings, probably other than the protest, because of the shelter in place, they were thinking that it was probably the protest.

[EmseB]

3 minutes ago, TCB said:

The one I read, which may be the one you linked, said that they had asked the question " Have you been in a large gathering?" , but they didn't ask where the gathering was. I think, because of the location and because there had not been large gatherings, probably other than the protest, because of the shelter in place, they were thinking that it was probably the protest.

But what is considered a large gathering? The protest was certainly publicized, but any kind of backyard BBQ with neighbors or an extended family bday party or Easter gathering could qualify given the right parameters. I don't think the health dept was making any assumptions because they are quoted as saying they have no idea which large gathering, I think they were just reading from a list of questions that they ask people who test positive.

Also, it's tricky because even if you could associate cases to one event, at least one person there had to bring covid with them, meaning they didn't contract it at the event itself. Maybe multiple people didn't contract it from the event. Which is why media reporting of just a number of cases around-ish the time frame of something that happened isn't helpful, IMO.

[TCB]

8 minutes ago, TCB said:

The one I read, which may be the one you linked, said that they had asked the question " Have you been in a large gathering?" , but they didn't ask where the gathering was. I think, because of the location and because there had not been large gatherings, probably other than the protest, because of the shelter in place, they were thinking that it was probably the protest.

Sorry quoting myself, but this whole thing is kind of driving me crazy! What is the point of contact tracing etc if you don't ask where or which was the large gathering! 

[EmseB]

2 minutes ago, TCB said:

Sorry quoting myself, but this whole thing is kind of driving me crazy! What is the point of contact tracing etc if you don't ask where or which was the large gathering! 

I don’t think, from reading the article, that they were contract tracing in the truest sense. It sounded more like compiling statistics.

Edited May 14, 2020 by EmseB

[TCB]

1 minute ago, EmseB said:

I don’t think, from reading the article, that they were contract tracing in the truest sense.

Probably not. I wonder what the point of what they are doing is then? Does not seem worthwhile to me, possibly beyond giving some insight into the type of events that increase spread, which it seems should be pretty well known from past epidemiological studies of pandemics/epidemics.

[Jean in Newcastle]

If you just look at number of deaths, Georgia and Pennsylvania (and probably others but those are the states I remember) are having steadily increasing deaths after reopening and protests. Not a spike as such but a surge?  (Don’t know if those are defined terms as such but I  think of a spike as a sudden jump vs a steady climb in numbers for a surge. )

Edited May 14, 2020 by Jean in Newcastle
Typo

[vonfirmath]

38 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

If you just look at number of deaths, Georgia and Pennsylvania (and probably others but those are the states I remember) are having steadily increasing deaths after reopening and protests. Not a spike as such but a surge?  (Don’t know if those are defined terms as such but a think of a spike as a sudden jump vs a steady climb in numbers for a surge. )

But deaths is a trailing indicator.

https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-map-high-risk-states-8ceeaa05-cc07-4e8b-b9f4-df3a3315f143.html -- 7 day averages for May 4 and May 11

(This 7 day average seems to be what our governor is watching)

 

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by vonfirmath

[Jean in Newcastle]

28 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

But deaths is a trailing indicator.

https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-map-high-risk-states-8ceeaa05-cc07-4e8b-b9f4-df3a3315f143.html -- 7 day averages for May 4 and May 11

(This 7 day average seems to be what our governor is watching)

 

 

While I realize that people dying have probably been in the hospital for perhaps up to a month prior to death, it seems like a more firm number than cases since cases depends on how much testing is done.  I suppose an equally good number would be ICU beds or even general hospital beds solely for COVID 19 cases but I don't see any numbers that are separated out like that. 

[Frances]

3 hours ago, Selkie said:

Look for a surge in cases in Wisconsin in the near future. The governor's safer-at-home order was struck down as unconstitutional yesterday. Within an hour of the ruling, bars were open and packed. I live right over the border in Illinois and saw the Facebook pics this morning. People were packed in shoulder to shoulder and there was not a mask in sight, not even on the servers.

I’m really concerned what this will mean for my mom who just moved into an apt in an aging in place complex there right before this all started. Her facility has been great, with no cases in any of the 10 properties they own throughout the area. But I’m guessing that will change now. Just yesterday my niece, who works at a local hospital, was quarantined after one of her patients, not hospitalized for the virus, tested positive.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Frances

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

This seems like such a horrible idea.  They should have had at least emptied one or more out and set aside just for Coronavirus patients with a dedicated staff.  It's been obvious for a while, that especially with the PPE problems, you can't contain it within a building with close quarters and staff going in/out like nursing homes (or cruise ships) have.

 

I believe that’s what NY has turned to, but I’m having a hard time understanding the outrage. The majority of families who put their loved ones in care facilities do so because they can’t take care of them at home. Where were they to go??? There are huge issues with moving elderly and disabled people that would take a lot of time to coordinate. Perhaps it should have been rushed coordination in this emergency, but I really don’t believe the outcome would have changed for the “first in line” hot spots.  I do hope it can prove helpful for others.

[SKL]

Does anyone know if any of the states / USA has broken down deaths or hospitalizations between nursing home patients, prison inmates, other?

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

If you just look at number of deaths, Georgia and Pennsylvania (and probably others but those are the states I remember) are having steadily increasing deaths after reopening and protests. Not a spike as such but a surge?  (Don’t know if those are defined terms as such but I  think of a spike as a sudden jump vs a steady climb in numbers for a surge. )

Cases seem to be declining in GA since reopening stuff? I'm looking at their state dashboard and confused.

ETA: NM, you said deaths, I misread.

Edited May 14, 2020 by EmseB

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Carrie12345 said:

I believe that’s what NY has turned to, but I’m having a hard time understanding the outrage. The majority of families who put their loved ones in care facilities do so because they can’t take care of them at home. Where were they to go??? There are huge issues with moving elderly and disabled people that would take a lot of time to coordinate. Perhaps it should have been rushed coordination in this emergency, but I really don’t believe the outcome would have changed for the “first in line” hot spots.  I do hope it can prove helpful for others.

There were unused temporary hospitals and potential temporary hospitals that could have been reserved for Covid19 patients only.

I can understand when people didn't know this was happening, but that is not a valid excuse for most of the deaths.

[Joker]

Just now, SKL said:

Does anyone know if any of the states / USA has broken down deaths or hospitalizations between nursing home patients, prison inmates, other?

Indiana specifically lists the number of deaths at long term care facilities. You have to scroll through to the bottom of link to see.  I’ve seen nothing specific about prisons. 

https://www.coronavirus.in.gov/2393.htm

[EmseB]

2 minutes ago, kand said:

I’d love to be living somewhere right now where they’d almost eliminated Covid-19 and people were being able to begin a return to more normal things without a significant threat of cases surging out of control. If I lived there, I would feel like I could see a potential end to this in sight. Far from how I feel right now, living in the US 😕. 

that sounds nice, however, the way they did that seems to be by the chief executive issuing some pretty dang draconian mandates unilaterally. I don't want to live in that world even if it means I personally have to take more precautions going forward. But if you have a small island nation with a benevolent executive who can rule by fiat, it would probably work pretty well as long as you don't run out of resources.

[vonfirmath]

27 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

While I realize that people dying have probably been in the hospital for perhaps up to a month prior to death, it seems like a more firm number than cases since cases depends on how much testing is done.  I suppose an equally good number would be ICU beds or even general hospital beds solely for COVID 19 cases but I don't see any numbers that are separated out like that. 

But if the people have been in the hospital for a month it has NOTHING to do with Georgia opening up less than a month ago.

(unless for that  reason there's been a recent surge of hospitalizations that caused them to have to disconnect more terminal patients already using equipment? But I don't see any evidence)

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by vonfirmath

[TracyP]

32 minutes ago, SKL said:

Does anyone know if any of the states / USA has broken down deaths or hospitalizations between nursing home patients, prison inmates, other?

Here is Minnesota's. It does not break down hospitalizations by residence type. It does show nursing home deaths; I don't think there have been any prison deaths.

https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/situation.html#dailyd1

Click on the daily death detail to get a breakdown by the day. Scroll down to deaths to see overall numbers - 81% of deaths are currently from nursing home residents. Scroll way down and you can see the residence type of all cases.

[Jean in Newcastle]

22 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

But if the people have been in the hospital for a month it has NOTHING to do with Georgia opening up less than a month ago.

(unless for that  reason there's been a recent surge of hospitalizations that caused them to have to disconnect more terminal patients already using equipment? But I don't see any evidence)

 

Not everyone is in the hospital the same amount of time. Some die just as they reach a hospital, for example. Others are there for more than a month. So death rates aren’t so cut and dried either but I can see that in our state we were averaging 10 deaths a day, it went up to 25 deaths a day and possibly it might be coming down again (it was going up and down which is why I said possibly). 

[TCB]

35 minutes ago, EmseB said:

that sounds nice, however, the way they did that seems to be by the chief executive issuing some pretty dang draconian mandates unilaterally. I don't want to live in that world even if it means I personally have to take more precautions going forward. But if you have a small island nation with a benevolent executive who can rule by fiat, it would probably work pretty well as long as you don't run out of resources.

Honestly I think Americans tend to overestimate their degree of freedom and underestimate other countries' freedoms. I think some of the difference between countries is more along the lines of communities being able to work together and co-operate and also less paranoia about their government. I'm sure many of you will disagree and therein is how much difference  cultural differences make. 

[EmseB]

14 minutes ago, TCB said:

Honestly I think Americans tend to overestimate their degree of freedom and underestimate other countries' freedoms. I think some of the difference between countries is more along the lines of communities being able to work together and co-operate and also less paranoia about their government. I'm sure many of you will disagree and therein is how much difference  cultural differences make. 

Well, I think in this case it's more the system of government. I'm not necessarily talking about freedoms, per se, but who can issue what orders. I have seen people advocating for Trump to be able to mandate nationwide shutdown measures, and honestly, I'm glad he specifically, but also the office of chief executive in general, does not have the kind of power that the NZ Prime Minister appears to have. But that doesn't mean I don't think governors or local authorities shouldn't be able to put those measures into place.

[Junie]

4 hours ago, EmseB said:

Yes, Cuomo did that. So did PA's governor, while at the same time pulling her own mom out of a nursing home.

 

It was PA's health secretary, not the governor.

https://www.newsweek.com/pennsylvania-health-secretary-moved-mother-out-nursing-home-coronavirus-death-toll-increased-1503853

[EmseB]

1 minute ago, Junie said:

It was PA's health secretary, not the governor.

https://www.newsweek.com/pennsylvania-health-secretary-moved-mother-out-nursing-home-coronavirus-death-toll-increased-1503853

oops! sorry about that!

[Junie]

10 minutes ago, EmseB said:

oops! sorry about that!

No problem.  Thanks for the information.

I grew up in Pennsylvania and most of my family is still there.  I knew that their governor was not a "her", so I looked it up.

I think that people who test positive in nursing homes should automatically be transferred to a hospital, not the other way around. 😞

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

I believe that’s what NY has turned to, but I’m having a hard time understanding the outrage. The majority of families who put their loved ones in care facilities do so because they can’t take care of them at home. Where were they to go??? There are huge issues with moving elderly and disabled people that would take a lot of time to coordinate. Perhaps it should have been rushed coordination in this emergency, but I really don’t believe the outcome would have changed for the “first in line” hot spots.  I do hope it can prove helpful for others.

The outrage in my mind is that New York told the nursing homes that they had to take back patients who had tested positive and I assume take people who weren’t sick enough for hospital coverage, but too sick for home (rehab).  Those people should have been sent elsewhere than being forced back into a facility with the most vulnerable.  It is one thing to send someone who comes in sick for testing back home because they are still at a point where they can manage the disease at home, but it is not ok when “home” is a nursing facility. That random person with coronavirus is still told to self isolate in their home as well as they can, but how in the world would that happen in a care facility?  I agree that there should be prosecutions of those like Cuomo and the PA governor who made such directives and caused so many unnecessary deaths.  It wasn’t like we didn’t know that old people were at the highest risk.

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Mom2mthj said:

The outrage in my mind is that New York told the nursing homes that they had to take back patients who had tested positive and I assume take people who weren’t sick enough for hospital coverage, but too sick for home (rehab).  Those people should have been sent elsewhere than being forced back into a facility with the most vulnerable.  It is one thing to send someone who comes in sick for testing back home because they are still at a point where they can manage the disease at home, but it is not ok when “home” is a nursing facility. That random person with coronavirus is still told to self isolate in their home as well as they can, but how in the world would that happen in a care facility?  I agree that there should be prosecutions of those like Cuomo and the PA governor who made such directives and caused so many unnecessary deaths.  It wasn’t like we didn’t know that old people were at the highest risk.

I still maintain there was nowhere else to put them in a timely manner at least in PA or NJ.  My grandmother never even made it to a hospital, never mind testing before death.  I do wonder what the stats are on long term care patients being released from the hospital.  It seems odd to me that there would even be enough to necessitate their own building. (Vs. residents who never even made it to a hospital, which has been the main story for NJ.)

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Does anyone know if any of the states / USA has broken down deaths or hospitalizations between nursing home patients, prison inmates, other?

https://coronavirus.ohio.gov/wps/portal/gov/covid-19/dashboards   There are links near the top for a lot of that information. You can see a listing of every single nursing home in Ohio that has cases (though there may be lags). 

[ElizabethB]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Does anyone know if any of the states / USA has broken down deaths or hospitalizations between nursing home patients, prison inmates, other?

There are some other summary articles out there, here is one for nursing homes, more if you google things like "Covid nursing home deaths by state percentage":

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/09/us/coronavirus-cases-nursing-homes-us.html

Marshall Project is tracking prison numbers:

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/05/01/a-state-by-state-look-at-coronavirus-in-prisons

[bolt.]

2 hours ago, EmseB said:

that sounds nice, however, the way they did that seems to be by the chief executive issuing some pretty dang draconian mandates unilaterally. I don't want to live in that world even if it means I personally have to take more precautions going forward. But if you have a small island nation with a benevolent executive who can rule by fiat, it would probably work pretty well as long as you don't run out of resources.

I'm surprised that you would describe the normal functioning of a parliamentary democracy as "unilateral" -- in fact, a leader in a parliamentary system has considerably less individual power than an American-style President. The leader participates in a party-based voting system to propose and pass laws openly and normally.  In a parliamentary system, a person becomes head of state by being the party leader of the party with the most seats. They don't gain any form of personal executive power from the position.

In declaring a national emergency, it was the government who had that power to do that (through a vote) not the Prime Minister. In deciding what additional powers the government gained during this emergency, they already had an act of parliament from 2006 (that had been passed into law by a vote at that time) to govern their response to a pandemic.

I'm not seeing any sort of 'ruling by fiat' really.

[Spryte]

11 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I still maintain there was nowhere else to put them in a timely manner at least in PA or NJ.  My grandmother never even made it to a hospital, never mind testing before death.  I do wonder what the stats are on long term care patients being released from the hospital.  It seems odd to me that there would even be enough to necessitate their own building. (Vs. residents who never even made it to a hospital, which has been the main story for NJ.)

 

I’m so sorry about your grandmother.

And I agree.  Yes, if the care home is considered their “home” and they don’t need hospital care, where else would they have been sent?  The care home *is* home, and ostensibly should be able to manage their care. That’s standard.    
 

Of course there could have been some other arrangement made as the realization about how vulnerable the population was, and quickly, but the care homes should be responsible as well.  I wish separate locations had been designated for covid patients, like I wish we had maintained an adequate supply of PPE, ventilators, supplies, and on and on with the “hindsight is 20/20” wishlist.
 

I have a FIL in nursing long term care, a MIL in assisted living, and am caring for an elder in my home, so am no stranger to these scenarios playing over and over in my head.
 

FIL’s facility fairly quickly built a quarantine section with reverse ventilation, and established standards (nursing care that works on quarantine side never see patients on other side, separate entrances, etc).  They have maintained steady at one case (contracted when patient went off site for medical needs), though we are all nervous.  But one could say it was only luck, that they didn’t have an outbreak prior to getting it built.  It was all moving pretty fast by the time people were taking action.

[Pen]

https://youtu.be/durcHyxpFT4

 

Luc Montagnier on CV19 as not natural.  I realize World Health Organization etc day it is natural.   (Not trying to spread conspiracies— But I trust Montagnier’s credibility more than WHO.) 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Pen

[Pawz4me]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

Does anyone know if any of the states / USA has broken down deaths or hospitalizations between nursing home patients, prison inmates, other?

North Carolina congregate living stats

[Ausmumof3]

7 hours ago, lovelearnandlive said:

Saw a news article today about antibody levels in Spain and France. Using the worldometer numbers of deaths for those countries and the percentages given in the article, you get a fatality rate of 0.91% for France and 1.16% for Spain (not sure why there is such a large discrepancy between worldometer’s number of deaths for France - over 27k - and the 16k cited in the article).

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1206821

 

Our cfr is running at around 1pc with pretty widespread testing as is the diamond princess I think.  I won’t be surprised if that’s where it ends up sitting.  Somewhere between .8 and 1.2