wuhan - coronavirus

[Pen]

Bubbles.

No. 

It would be nice to have something like that . 

My son (only child) had worked out getting together with just one friend, but unfortunately without a bubble concept, one friend meant also his family and all contacts of his family and all their contacts, on and on.

 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Pen

[matrips]

13 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

Because we have a DRASTIC shortage of equipment. I doubt more than 5% (being generous, 20%) of the masks are going elsewhere, because that would be an immense quantity of masks. Doctors and nurses are having to reuse PPE. There's NO WAY that tracking down the ones that are being sold on the black market is going to solve the problem. What would solve the problem is finding more equipment. 

Yes, anyone caught doing this should be punished severely. But given that the federal government could be ramping up PPE production and is not, and given that we will NOT have enough masks even if we find every single criminal that has done this, that's just a distraction. 

I saw one nurse interviewed that said shortages went back to last year.  So not just the pandemic causing the issue.  😞

From everything I read online - years of cdc/hhs guidelines for pandemic preparedness guidelines for state and health systems and employers- the guideline is 6-8weeks of supplies and to have your distributors/suppliers lined up etc.  They went over scenarios of hoarding and price gouging and how much better and cheaper it is to prepare before time.  That states would be expected to be mostly self-reliant in a national pandemic.  I’ve even seen calculators online to determine how much ppe/masks//gloves etc you would need. So I’m thinking that many (some? Idk)  states and local governments or hospitals did not follow through on the planning recommendations, and that is why there is such a drastic shortage. 😦That 6-8 week supply would have bought time for manufacturing to ramp up replacements.  Many lessons being learned a very hard way and hurting many innocent people. 😞  

That said, I’m glad to see they’re cracking down on price gouges and hoarders.  Every bit helps at this point.  What a hard time for our healthcare workers.  They are phenomenal.

[Renai]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

I know all lockdowns are different, is anyone else in a lockdown with a 'bubble' concept? NZ has asked each of us to identify our bubble - a small group of people who physically interact but don't come in contact with others.  So our bubble includes our family of 4 and our 65 year old neighbor, but not his partner who lives across town. The Prime Minister's bubble includes her partner, toddler, the Finance Minister, and 4 staff members. The Finance Minister and staff members' families are NOT included in this bubble, so they will only be interacting by video. The Nursing Homes are considered a bubble, so staff have moved in voluntarily and are only interacting with their families by video.  I've also read about a group house for 22 university students acting as a bubble.  If they are dating anyone outside this bubble, they can only meet by video. Basically, bubbles do NOT overlap.

This seems such an obvious idea to us since it was implemented 10 days ago, but when we have discussed it with family living in various states in the USA, it was not a concept that they were familiar with.  

I think this is what was mentioned before in this thread - having one family to be in contact with, and that family also commits to only being in contact with yours. Ah, it was brought up when the subject of play dates came up.

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, mumto2 said:

I read a very similar article behind a paywall in The Telegraph yesterday and just spotted it in the Daily Mail.....yes I know but the main bits are identical, the mail is just significantly longer with pictures.  Since the main points are the same I am linking the one everyone can read......... a team of German researchers are doing research in the hardest hit part of Germany to try and figure out in real life how the virus is spreading.  They have tested doorknobs, animal fur etc in patients homes and found no virus on those surfaces.  At this point they are concluding only person to person but very early.  
 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8182767/Scientist-casts-doubt-coronavirus-spread.html

Interesting and somewhat calming......that said neither Dh or I plan to stop wearing gloves to open Amazon packages. 😉 My hand washing protocols are still in place , it’s just made me feel a bit less stressed about one mistake and someone touches their face and infects us all! 

On the flip side it would mean all the world health organisation emphasis on hand washing instead of mask wearing was just plain wrong.  Which is kind of depressing because they’ve been pushing it hard for six weeks or so.

[lewelma]

10 minutes ago, Renai said:

I think this is what was mentioned before in this thread - having one family to be in contact with, and that family also commits to only being in contact with yours. Ah, it was brought up when the subject of play dates came up.

So individuals are thinking about it, but it is not any stated government policy. I thought with 50 states, there might be one that clarified what a lockdown actually looks like to be the most effective. 

[mumto2]

6 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

On the flip side it would mean all the world health organisation emphasis on hand washing instead of mask wearing was just plain wrong.  Which is kind of depressing because they’ve been pushing it hard for six weeks or so.

Yep, the WHO being wrong is possible.....all I could think of was the choirs, the close contact spread in Taxis etc that we know is happening might just indicate these initial results might be right.  I like that they are testing in real living conditions not labs.   One thing I know the Telegraph article mentioned ( sort of skimmed the Mail) was a drinking game with shared glasses in large groups was played in Italy by the skiers.  This Researcher felt that was the point that spread the virus from there all over........

[Ausmumof3]

2 minutes ago, mumto2 said:

Yep, the WHO being wrong is possible.....all I could think of was the choirs, the close contact spread in Taxis etc that we know is happening might just indicate these initial results might be right.  I like that they are testing in real living conditions not labs.   One thing I know the Telegraph article mentioned ( sort of skimmed the Mail) was a drinking game with shared glasses in large groups was played in Italy by the skiers.  This Researcher felt that was the point that spread the virus from there all over........

Yeah interesting and so much could play into it.  The sick couple that went to the auction here don’t appear to have caused new cases (unless there is a hidden train of transmission that’s been missed).  It may also depend how far into the illness people are as to what level of shedding is going on and whether people are experiencing the gastro symptoms.  It may also depend on effectiveness of cleaning protocols in the homes of the infected people.  (Ie. Could be the German thoroughness and efficiency)

[mumto2]

4 minutes ago, lewelma said:

So individuals are thinking about it, but it is not any stated government policy. I thought with 50 states, there might be one that clarified what a lockdown actually looks like to be the most effective. 

I know my family is including our neighbor in our circle as far as being willing to suspend distancing with if needed.  We are it for her too.  That said only hubby has been in her house etc........unfortunately she may have really hurt herself yesterday, back injury, might be a ruptured disc.  Sort of taking this day by day in case she needs medical care..  She does have an adult son in area but believe his job is essential so he has been staying away intentionally. 

[matrips]

6 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

That sounds lovely. If only I didn't have to make the trade between ordering food online and not going out and getting veggies... it's been a while since I've been able to grab veggies from Whole Foods. 

 

We are blessed to have InstaCart here.  I used it last night for the first time and at 8am a delivery from Sprouts was on my doorstep!  Fresh veggies, chicken, and ice cream 🙂

[Ausmumof3]

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-04/qantas-confirms-50-staff-including-pilots-have-coronavirus/12121522?pfmredir=sm
 

adelaide airport linked cluster with Qantas is now up to 50 including pilots and cabin crew.  Some are international but were using all the correct controls.  Doesn’t look good for Qantas given they disciplined someone for speaking out about safety concerns about the protective measures for coronavirus.  I’m also wondering if this may be widespread through other airports but detected here due to a bit more testing going on.

[Ausmumof3]

I also don’t think our gov are going for the bubble concept at all.  They are going for a hardcore lockdown on social or recreation activity with relatively free flow on economic activity. 

[Ausmumof3]

Bno: Over the past 24 hours, the U.S. reported 32,850 new cases of coronavirus and 1,320 new deaths, raising total to 277,621 cases and 7,392 dead

[lewelma]

OMG, did you guys just see that America stole 200,000 masks that Germany had bought and paid for?!?! Apparently produced in China by 3M, and stolen at transit in Thailand. 😞 

[melmichigan]

6 minutes ago, lewelma said:

OMG, did you guys just see that America stole 200,000 masks that Germany had bought and paid for?!?! Apparently produced in China by 3M, and stolen at transit in Thailand. 😞 

RFI is reporting that the US bought ones intended for France as they sat on the tarmac.

Edited April 4, 2020 by melmichigan

[Robin M]

16 minutes ago, lewelma said:

OMG, did you guys just see that America stole 200,000 masks that Germany had bought and paid for?!?! Apparently produced in China by 3M, and stolen at transit in Thailand. 😞 

3m said they didnt have a record of an order by China. 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-cries-foul-over-berlin-bound-masks-diverted-to-u-s-11585943440?

There has been mention of a lot of black market deals going on, which the administration is trying to stop.  i haven't found much information on that as of yet. 

[Arcadia]

😞 News link https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/coronavirus/contra-costa-county-issues-mass-isolation-and-quarantine-order-for-confirmed-cases/2267324/

Press release https://813dcad3-2b07-4f3f-a25e-23c48c566922.filesusr.com/ugd/84606e_b15289a73ac5441b874199b4459170bd.pdf

“Contra Costa County Issues Mass Isolation and Quarantine Order for Confirmed Cases

A mass isolation and quarantine order for residents with novel coronavirus and their close contacts was issued Friday by Contra Costa County Health Officer Dr. Chris Farnitano.

The order is intended to slow the spread of COVID-19, protect those most vulnerable and keep the county's health care workers from being overwhelmed, Farnitano said.

"The county's public health system no longer has the capacity to individually notify and track everyone with COVID-19 and their close contacts who may have been exposed to the virus," officials said in a news release.

The county, which had no cases at the beginning of March, has seen the count grow to 307 confirmed cases and five deaths as of Friday.

"We've reached a critical point in the COVID-19 crisis here in Contra Costa," Dr. Farnitano said. "Our resources are stretched extremely thin and business as usual is not an option. We believe this mass order is a creative and effective way of getting the job done to keep the sick isolated from others."”

[mathnerd]

58 minutes ago, lewelma said:

OMG, did you guys just see that America stole 200,000 masks that Germany had bought and paid for?!?! Apparently produced in China by 3M, and stolen at transit in Thailand. 😞 

 

16 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

 

The president invoked a power that he's allowed to invoke which basically says the government can force American companies to make certain products that are then to be used by the U.S. It's not considered stealing, and people have been complaining for weeks for him to use this power. Now that he is, people have problems with it. 

The President invoked the Defense Production Act, which allows the administration to force a company to prioritize the U.S. government over competing orders.

The administration is invoking the law to compel 3M to send to the United States masks made in factories overseas and to stop exporting masks the company manufactures in the United States.

- Copied from WaPo.

(slang for invocation of DPA is "nationalization" of a private company, though it is not technically considered that)

Under the DPA law, the U.S. government can make contracts with companies and "require acceptance and performance of such contracts" to prioritize the production of "scarce and critical material."

Edited April 4, 2020 by mathnerd

[lewelma]

I got my info from the New Zealand media.  So it is definitely not playing well here, legal or no in the US.

Is it legal from the point of view of international trade? Is US is repaying Germany? 

Under the DPA law, the U.S. government can make contracts with companies and "require acceptance and performance of such contracts" to prioritize the production of "scarce and critical material."

This sounds like future contracts.  Are they allowed to force the breaking of current contracts? And apparently they did not give Germany any notice.  I'm sorry, but that is seriously not cool. Aren't the US and Germany allies?

Edited April 4, 2020 by lewelma

[Pen]

7 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I got my info from the New Zealand media.  So it is definitely not playing well here, legal or no in the US.

Is it legal from the point of view of international trade? Is US is repaying Germany? 

 

 

This sounds like future contracts.  Are they allowed to force the breaking of current contracts? And apparently they did not give Germany any notice.  I'm sorry, but that is seriously not cool. Aren't the US and Germany allies?

 

https://theintercept.com/2020/04/01/coronavirus-medical-supplies-export/

the common USA view is that selling/sending critically needed supplies overseas when US doctors and nurses are dying and first responders are out of commission sick and on quarantines (and also perhaps dying) due to lack is seriously uncool

other places apparently had already closed down their own supplies that they needed much earlier 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2020/03/30/i-spent-a-day-in-the-coronavirus-driven-feeding-frenzy-of-n95-mask-sellers-and-buyers-and-this-is-what-i-learned/

[Terabith]

There's a pretty huge difference between placing an order and ordering a company to produce PPE for US purposes and doing what he did, which was essentially stealing orders on their way to Germany and Canada that had been paid for and promised.  (Which, not only had he not invoked the Defense Act until Thursday, but he hadn't placed orders.)  The first is completely legitimate.  The second is basically an act of piracy.  Very uncool.  

[ElizabethB]

I have been reading for weeks about various European countries taking each other's shipments of PPE at borders.  The worst one, to me, was Germany supposedly stealing a shipment paid for by Italy when Italy was at the worst of their crisis and Germany was well off, infection wise.

I'm not sure how much of it is true and how much is export controls to preserve their own supply with huge global demand. The reporting may be biased and inflammatory as well.  I didn't link any of the stories since I wasn't sure of their accuracy or sourcing, but I saw dozens of stories along these lines involving several different countries.

I think in the future every country will want to make sure they have local manufacturing for this essentials, because there are obviously problems when huge global demand hits at once and everyone is trying to look out for their own country's interest. (Although people tend to forget after a few years...)

Edited April 4, 2020 by ElizabethB

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, mathnerd said:

 

The President invoked the Defense Production Act, which allows the administration to force a company to prioritize the U.S. government over competing orders.

The administration is invoking the law to compel 3M to send to the United States masks made in factories overseas and to stop exporting masks the company manufactures in the United States.

- Copied from WaPo.

(slang for invocation of DPA is "nationalization" of a private company, though it is not technically considered that)

Under the DPA law, the U.S. government can make contracts with companies and "require acceptance and performance of such contracts" to prioritize the production of "scarce and critical material."

And this is why I don’t support foreign ownership of significant assets in our country.  But no gov ever seems to go with that.  Mega farms, power networks, ports go to the highest bidder.

i don’t blame America for doing what they can to look after their own citizens but it will cause a problem.  

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

I got my info from the New Zealand media.  So it is definitely not playing well here, legal or no in the US.

Is it legal from the point of view of international trade? Is US is repaying Germany? 

 

 

This sounds like future contracts.  Are they allowed to force the breaking of current contracts? And apparently they did not give Germany any notice.  I'm sorry, but that is seriously not cool. Aren't the US and Germany allies?

It’s being reported the same way here.

[lewelma]

Sorry, sounds like my comments are political. I'm not in the American news, and didn't/don't understand their laws/politics. NZ is exporting masks to those who need them, but obviously that is because we are in a better position. I'm so sorry, everyone, for what you are going through. There are no clear ethical decisions in this horrific situation. 😞 

[Carrie12345]

I love the concept of bubbles! I don’t know anyone local that doesn’t have at least 1 household member with an essential job though, which pops it right there. My household has essential volunteers who haven’t really had prolonged contact with anyone so far, but that could happen at any time, making us un-bubble worthy.

[lewelma]

10 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I love the concept of bubbles! I don’t know anyone local that doesn’t have at least 1 household member with an essential job though, which pops it right there. My household has essential volunteers who haven’t really had prolonged contact with anyone so far, but that could happen at any time, making us un-bubble worthy.

Not how bubbles actually work here. For the people in your bubble, you can be closer than 2 meters to, you can share a toilet and kitchen with them, and you don't have to wear protective gear around them. When you go work in an essential service, your employer is required to give you protective gear or have you 2 meters away from other employees/customers.  People you work with are not in your bubble.

The idea of the bubble is to keep *close* interactions in clearly-defined separate units and to not allow them to overlap.  This is the core feature of our lockdown.

Edited April 4, 2020 by lewelma

[Carrie12345]

43 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Not how bubbles actually work here. For the people in your bubble, you can be closer than 2 meters to, you can share a toilet and kitchen with them, and you don't have to wear protective gear around them. When you go work in an essential service, your employer is required to give you protective gear or have you 2 meters away from other employees/customers.  People you work with are not in your bubble.

The idea of the bubble is to keep *close* interactions in clearly-defined separate units and to not allow them to overlap.  This is the core feature of our lockdown.

I’m not really sure how that’s different from what I’m imagining, but it doesn’t apply to me, so I won’t worry about it to much, lol.

[lewelma]

3 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I’m not really sure how that’s different from what I’m imagining, but it doesn’t apply to me, so I won’t worry about it to much, lol.

haha.  I'm just fascinated by how different lockdowns work as they all have similar names but appear to be very very different. 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

Sorry, sounds like my comments are political. I'm not in the American news, and didn't/don't understand their laws/politics. NZ is exporting masks to those who need them, but obviously that is because we are in a better position. I'm so sorry, everyone, for what you are going through. There are no clear ethical decisions in this horrific situation. 😞 

 

I’m not sure if it’s wrongly political in the usual sense of troubles on these forums.  

But I think Maybe we should at least move it over to the companion thread I had started for “discussion.” So if it becomes lengthy and vehement it isn’t leading this thread astray.  

[TracyP]

9 hours ago, square_25 said:

Yeah, this is where we should have done this IN FEBRUARY. People who were really worried about the economy should have thought about that, shouldn't they have? 

 

We so badly dropped the ball by not testing. In early February nobody thought covid was in the U.S. outside a few international travelers. (And by nobody I exclude the WTM, cuz we absolutely knew here.) There would have been no stomach for any social distancing moves and no compliance by most people - not without testing showing that it was spreading here. 🙁

[TracyP]

9 hours ago, mumto2 said:

I read a very similar article behind a paywall in The Telegraph yesterday and just spotted it in the Daily Mail.....yes I know but the main bits are identical, the mail is just significantly longer with pictures.  Since the main points are the same I am linking the one everyone can read......... a team of German researchers are doing research in the hardest hit part of Germany to try and figure out in real life how the virus is spreading.  They have tested doorknobs, animal fur etc in patients homes and found no virus on those surfaces.  At this point they are concluding only person to person but very early.  
 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8182767/Scientist-casts-doubt-coronavirus-spread.html

Interesting and somewhat calming......that said neither Dh or I plan to stop wearing gloves to open Amazon packages. 😉 My hand washing protocols are still in place , it’s just made me feel a bit less stressed about one mistake and someone touches their face and infects us all! 

Dr. Osterholm has said the same thing on at least 2 interviews. He basically says, you should always wash your hands - it is good hygiene. But all the evidence so far supports person to person spread. Also, I just got an informational printout from my state department of health and it emphasized the person to person transmission as well. 

It is good to see an actual study showing the same thing. Thanks!

[TracyP]

The graph in this Time article shows the covid19 progression of each state in the U.S. It will be interesting to keep tabs on this as they update it.

https://time.com/5814139/coronavirus-state-data-tracker/

[Pen]

https://youtu.be/K03vqAX9USM

 

A bbc report I found useful 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Pen

[ktgrok]

 

On 4/2/2020 at 10:57 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

And if everyone is wearing those masks then you have filtering going on both sides which would limit the particulates even further.  

Yup. But the big idea is they don't protect you as much as they do others. My mask protects you, your mask protects me. We need to GET enough masks, and then make them as essential in public as wearing clothing. 

On 4/3/2020 at 8:29 AM, vonfirmath said:

 

I wish this was true because it would mean most of my sponsored kids' families would be fine because they tend to live in countries along the equator. And they tend to live their lives outside. But Ecuador is being hit HARD -- Bodies in the street and everything  It may have an effect, but not enough.

 

I keep seeing people talk about warm weather stopping this, and given that Florida has had weather in the 90s recently (a cold front came through and we are only in 80s now) and our cases continue to go up and up, I'm not counting on warm weather to do much. Especially in the USA where people have air conditioning anyway. 

 

16 hours ago, Pen said:

 

GARLIC?

 

I think someone raised garlic some pages back?

 

It isn’t listed in my best herbal antiviral book as being active against coronavirus or having been helpful for SARS1, afaik.  It at least certainly isn’t listed as an herb to particularly consider for coronavirus. 

Ribivarin pharmaceutical antiviral was apparently also only minimally effective, so something, whether herb or pharmaceutical being “antiviral” does not mean it will be effective against all virus forms. 

Thank you!

16 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Vit D has another feature -- fat cells love it and grab it, taking it out of circulation.  This is one of the reasons people are asked to maintain a healthy weight....their Vit D will circulate rather than be stored.

Yup. Obese people often have low D. I am right at 30BMI right now, and my D is down to 33. "Normal" but I feel much better when it is at least over 40. Need to up my supplement, and I'm already getting quite a bit of sunshine a week mowing the yard, etc here in florida. 

11 hours ago, mumto2 said:

I read a very similar article behind a paywall in The Telegraph yesterday and just spotted it in the Daily Mail.....yes I know but the main bits are identical, the mail is just significantly longer with pictures.  Since the main points are the same I am linking the one everyone can read......... a team of German researchers are doing research in the hardest hit part of Germany to try and figure out in real life how the virus is spreading.  They have tested doorknobs, animal fur etc in patients homes and found no virus on those surfaces.  At this point they are concluding only person to person but very early.  
 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8182767/Scientist-casts-doubt-coronavirus-spread.html

Interesting and somewhat calming......that said neither Dh or I plan to stop wearing gloves to open Amazon packages. 😉 My hand washing protocols are still in place , it’s just made me feel a bit less stressed about one mistake and someone touches their face and infects us all! 

Well, given that we know they found the virus on surfaces on one of the cruise ships 17 days later, I REALLY doubt that fomites are not an issue. I'm guessing those people were just cleaning well. Or maybe it depends on the temperature and humidity in the air? But it would be VERY irresponsible for anyone to promote the idea that it can't be spread on surfaces until we know a lot more. 

 

[Pen]

11 hours ago, mumto2 said:

I read a very similar article behind a paywall in The Telegraph yesterday and just spotted it in the Daily Mail.....yes I know but the main bits are identical, the mail is just significantly longer with pictures.  Since the main points are the same I am linking the one everyone can read......... a team of German researchers are doing research in the hardest hit part of Germany to try and figure out in real life how the virus is spreading.  They have tested doorknobs, animal fur etc in patients homes and found no virus on those surfaces.  At this point they are concluding only person to person but very early.  
 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8182767/Scientist-casts-doubt-coronavirus-spread.html

Interesting and somewhat calming......that said neither Dh or I plan to stop wearing gloves to open Amazon packages. 😉 My hand washing protocols are still in place , it’s just made me feel a bit less stressed about one mistake and someone touches their face and infects us all! 

 

I am skeptical of that Mail article because:

https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/singapore-coronavirus-study-shows-that-virus-lingers-in-rooms-and-toilets

and the Princeton and several other combined entities study about virus time remaining viable on surfaces

[TracyP]

5 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

 

Well, given that we know they found the virus on surfaces on one of the cruise ships 17 days later, I REALLY doubt that fomites are not an issue. I'm guessing those people were just cleaning well. Or maybe it depends on the temperature and humidity in the air? But it would be VERY irresponsible for anyone to promote the idea that it can't be spread on surfaces until we know a lot more. 

 

I agree that it is safest to go ahead assuming it can spread on surfaces until more info comes in. But the study was looking for live virus - the virus found on the ship was not live virus. Somebody explained this upthread; I believe they called it the shell of the virus. It could not have infected anybody.

[TracyP]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I am skeptical of that Mail article because:

https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/singapore-coronavirus-study-shows-that-virus-lingers-in-rooms-and-toilets

and the Princeton and several other combined entities study about virus time remaining viable on surfaces

I think there is general agreement that the virus *could* spread from surfaces. However, if person-to-person is the way it is spread most of the time, it changes the messaging that is out there.

[Pen]

 

10 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Thank you!

 

Oh good, I could not recall who had raised garlic question to tag — I’m glad you noticed it!   

 

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, TracyP said:

I think there is general agreement that the virus *could* spread from surfaces. However, if person-to-person is the way it is spread most of the time, it changes the messaging that is out there.

 

If you at least in part mean let’s all wear masks, or st least scarves or bandanas over our noses and mouths,  I agree.  

And if we can figure out separators for cashiers and others let’s do that. 

Etc. 

And let’s keep washing our hands well too. 

 

[Starr]

21 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I wonder why hairdressers were exempted. 

 

Have you looked at me lately? haha Just kidding, it seems like a bad idea.

[TracyP]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

If you at least in part mean let’s all wear masks, or st least scarves or bandanas over our noses and mouths,  I agree.  

And if we can figure out separators for cashiers and others let’s do that. 

Etc. 

And let’s keep washing our hands well too. 

 

That's exactly what I mean. 

[regentrude]

33 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Well, given that we know they found the virus on surfaces on one of the cruise ships 17 days later, I REALLY doubt that fomites are not an issue. I'm guessing those people were just cleaning well. Or maybe it depends on the temperature and humidity in the air? But it would be VERY irresponsible for anyone to promote the idea that it can't be spread on surfaces until we know a lot more. 

As others have already pointed out, they did not find live virus on the cruiseship after 17 days, but just the RNA.

The director of the German institute cited in the mail article explained (in German media today https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/covid-19-wie-lange-sich-das-coronavirus-auf-oberflaechen.1939.de.html?drn:news_id=1117010)  that they did detect virus on those surfaces (door handles, cell phones, remotes etc) but were unable to culture the virus from these samples and concluded that they found RNA but no live virus. He said they tested households where highly infectious people had lived and were not able to get live virus off surfaces. 

ETA: The source I quoted is the German public radio, equivalent to NPR. In my decades long experience, they have balanced and rational reporting, and I would consider it trustworthy.

Edited April 4, 2020 by regentrude

[Matryoshka]

6 hours ago, Terabith said:

There's a pretty huge difference between placing an order and ordering a company to produce PPE for US purposes and doing what he did, which was essentially stealing orders on their way to Germany and Canada that had been paid for and promised.  (Which, not only had he not invoked the Defense Act until Thursday, but he hadn't placed orders.)  The first is completely legitimate.  The second is basically an act of piracy.  Very uncool.  

Considering that the federal (US) govt has been intercepting and cancelling legitimate paid-for orders from its own states mid-order/shipment (I know MA has had a bunch intercepted; I'm sure it's lots more), it's hardly surprising they're doing it to other countries.  The act should have been invoked much earlier so that it was just prioritization, not mid-process.

But of course, we're now learning from Jared that the stuff the feds have is for them, not for the states (y'know the people of America) either.  🤬

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973
 

this was the previous study we talked about that had the 3 hours for aerosols and 72 for plastic and stainless steel.  However finding some viable virus particles versus enough to probably cause infection may be different things.  I think the half life was estimated at around 6 hours.  

[regentrude]

6 hours ago, Terabith said:

There's a pretty huge difference between placing an order and ordering a company to produce PPE for US purposes and doing what he did, which was essentially stealing orders on their way to Germany and Canada that had been paid for and promised.  (Which, not only had he not invoked the Defense Act until Thursday, but he hadn't placed orders.)  The first is completely legitimate.  The second is basically an act of piracy.  Very uncool.  

Yes. It's grabbing another customer's toilet paper from their cart.

[Wheres Toto]

Sounds like we have a bubble that is just our immediate family, although dh is on his way to add his mom to our bubble.   Other than the grocery store, none of us have been in public places in weeks.   We're in NJ where stay at home orders have been in place for a while, although violated quite a bit.  Now people seem to be taking it seriously since it's pretty hard to ignore when it's right over the river.  Dh said most people were wearing masks at the grocery store yesterday.

I saw this morning that NY is over 100,000 cases and about 12 deaths an hour. 

[Pen]

15 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Yes. It's grabbing another customer's toilet paper from their cart.

 

That isn’t the analogy I would use.  

 I think there are extremely serious ethical dilemmas.

And I think it matters a lot if Place something was destined to go to was Italy or Spain with a problem perhaps bigger than USA own problems, or somewhere that isn’t having a severe problem or at least nowhere near the problem USA is having. 

Legally it is probably a breach of contract. Breach of contract is a Very common legal issue and one that has accepted remedies in law. 

It may not be breach of contract if the contract had language that excluded such a situation. 

[mumto2]

32 minutes ago, regentrude said:

As others have already pointed out, they did not find live virus on the cruiseship after 17 days, but just the RNA.

The director of the German institute cited in the mail article explained (in German media today https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/covid-19-wie-lange-sich-das-coronavirus-auf-oberflaechen.1939.de.html?drn:news_id=1117010)  that they did detect virus on those surfaces (door handles, cell phones, remotes etc) but were unable to culture the virus from these samples and concluded that they found RNA but no live virus. He said they tested households where highly infectious people had lived and were not able to get live virus off surfaces. 

ETA: The source I quoted is the German public radio, equivalent to NPR. In my decades long experience, they have balanced and rational reporting, and I would consider it trustworthy.

I originally found a report of the study in The Telegraph but since most can’t get behind the paywall used The Daily Mail because it made the same points.  So glad you were able to listen and read in German to the information.

[regentrude]

11 minutes ago, Pen said:

That isn’t the analogy I would use.  

 I think there are extremely serious ethical dilemmas.

And I think it matters a lot if Place something was destined to go to was Italy or Spain with a problem perhaps bigger than USA own problems, or somewhere that isn’t having a severe problem or at least nowhere near the problem USA is having. 

It is exactly like snatching the toilet paper from another customer who is waiting in line at the checkout (and handing the cashier an extra ten bucks so they let you cut in line). It's exactly the kind of behavior we would find despicable from another person.
The mask shipment ordered for Berlin was on the airport to be flown over when they swooped in and took it.

FWIW, Germany has more cases per capita than the US (1100 vs 840). So nope, no justification on that count either.

Edited April 4, 2020 by regentrude

[Pen]

8 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

Sounds like we have a bubble that is just our immediate family, although dh is on his way to add his mom to our bubble.   Other than the grocery store, none of us have been in public places in weeks.   We're in NJ where stay at home orders have been in place for a while, although violated quite a bit.  Now people seem to be taking it seriously since it's pretty hard to ignore when it's right over the river.  Dh said most people were wearing masks at the grocery store yesterday.

I saw this morning that NY is over 100,000 cases and about 12 deaths an hour. 

 

Yes.

and gone from single refrigerator trucks for bodies to multiple it looks like in pictures.  

Not yet filling ice rinks with dead bodies, and I haven’t yet heard reports of people in NYC stuck at home with dead relatives they cannot get moved out. (Are these things to be thankful for? That it’s not as bad as Italy, Ecuador? Or will they be coming next?) 

 

But elsewhere reports are that people are still holding parties, huge church services...