wuhan - coronavirus

[Pen]

45 minutes ago, regentrude said:

As others have already pointed out, they did not find live virus on the cruiseship after 17 days, but just the RNA.

The director of the German institute cited in the mail article explained (in German media today https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/covid-19-wie-lange-sich-das-coronavirus-auf-oberflaechen.1939.de.html?drn:news_id=1117010)  that they did detect virus on those surfaces (door handles, cell phones, remotes etc) but were unable to culture the virus from these samples and concluded that they found RNA but no live virus. He said they tested households where highly infectious people had lived and were not able to get live virus off surfaces. 

ETA: The source I quoted is the German public radio, equivalent to NPR. In my decades long experience, they have balanced and rational reporting, and I would consider it trustworthy.

 

What,  from the German,  was the time lapse between the infectious people being in the household and trying to culture the viruses? 

 

 

[regentrude]

Just now, Pen said:

What,  from the German,  was the time lapse between the infectious people being in the household and trying to culture the viruses? 

I only saw the radio report, not a scientific study. He did not give details.
They started this week conducting a detailed study in the town that is one of the epicenters, but results are not yet available.

[Pen]

28 minutes ago, regentrude said:

It is exactly like snatching the toilet paper from another customer who is waiting in line at the checkout (and handing the cashier an extra ten bucks so they let you cut in line).

 

I think TP squabble analogy trivializes the situation.   

 

? It might be more like triaging people for a ventilator when there are several patients all needing it.

Is Germany out of PPE for health workers and asking the public to make masks for health workers?  If so, then I agree that Germany is equally in need.  

https://www.stcharleshealthcare.org/covid-19/hand-sewn-masks

 

 

Possibly good news whether for USA or Germany or wherever: 

 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Pen

11 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

On the flip side it would mean all the world health organisation emphasis on hand washing instead of mask wearing was just plain wrong.  Which is kind of depressing because they’ve been pushing it hard for six weeks or so.

But wouldn’t the droplets from coughs and sneezes land on your hands which people promptly put to their face?  I think there is a difference between hands and general surfaces/packages sitting on a truck for hours being the main means of transmission.  Also, we are learning more about this new virus all the time so I don’t think the previous advice was wrong, but we have have learned more so they are adding recommendations rather than changing.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Mom2mthj

[Pen]

I tried to look up comparative PPE shortages— not really finding full answers. 

Partial information here https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabeltogoh/2020/03/31/heres-how-some-of-the-countries-worst-hit-by-coronavirus-are-dealing-with-shortages-of-protective-equipment-for-healthcare-workers/

 

[EKS]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

I am skeptical of that Mail article because:

https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/singapore-coronavirus-study-shows-that-virus-lingers-in-rooms-and-toilets

and the Princeton and several other combined entities study about virus time remaining viable on surfaces

Just because there is viable virus on surfaces doesn't mean that it's a major route of transmission.  The virus has to get from the surface into a place in your respiratory tract where it can set up shop in order to infect you.  Since viruses don't leap off of surfaces, you must do this yourself.  And by "doing this yourself," I mean that you have to stick it into your nose, eye, or mouth.  Not just "touch your face," but really get it into an entry point to the respiratory tract.  

Virus floating around in the air--now *that's* where the action is.

Edited April 4, 2020 by EKS

[Arcadia]

🙂 @Pen Oregon

https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/104-year-old-american-is-worlds-oldest-coronavirus-survivor

“NEW YORK - An American who survived World War II and the Spanish Flu pandemic is now the world's oldest coronavirus survivor after a miraculous recovery.

Mr Bill Lapschies, 104, displayed symptoms associated with the virus on March 5 and was quickly put into isolation at the Edward C. Allworth Veterans' Home in Lebanon, Oregon, where he resides.

Mr Lapschies was one of the first two residents at the home to test positive for the virus. The other victim, a man in his 90s, has since died, reported The Daily Mail.

...

Mr Lapschies became symptomatic around the same time Oregon recorded its first Covid-19 case in nearly Marion County.

He had a 'moderate' case of coronavirus according to Dr Rob Richardson, his physician. However, he did not develop any serious breathing problems.

Dr Richardson said that Mr Lapschies would likely have been transferred to a hospital if he had not been residing at the veterans' home.

...

Two nurses in contact with Mr Lapchies and the other resident who was first infected and later died had shown the same symptoms.

Both nurses were told to get tested by the home, but were turned away with 'mild' symptoms and continued to work for a week before they both tested positive.

Mr Lapchies celebrated his 104th birthday with his family on Wednesday (April 1), 25 days since he first displayed Covid-19 symptoms.

...

Other elderly people have also beaten Covid-19.

Ms Zhang Guangfen, a 103-year-old grandmother in China, recovered after six days of treatment in Wuhan. She is believed to be the oldest surviving coronavirus patient in China.

A 103-year-old woman in Iran also recovered after being hospitalised for a week.

In Genoa, Italy, Ms Italica Grondona, 102, was nicknamed 'Highlander' - in homage to the fictional immortal character - after she recovered following a 20-day stay in hospital.

In South Korea, the oldest survivor is a 96-year-old woman from Cheongdo County.”

[Ausmumof3]

15 minutes ago, Plum said:

I found this map really interesting in that it shows as countries start to see more cases and are in the midst of their surge, they shut down exports to preserve as much as possible. Its human nature. As the plane is going down, you can’t save your child without first putting the mask on yourself. 
 

https://www.marketplace.org/2020/03/30/countries-race-to-limit-ban-exports-of-masks-ventilators-other-gear/

Except this may be more akin to the situation where there’s only one oxygen mask and you’re deciding who gets it.  Not a good place to be globally.  

[EKS]

4 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Food for thought on the speed of the US response. I don’t always agree with Brit Hume, but he is someone I always stop and listen to nonetheless.

https://disrn.com/news/fauci-on-january-21-coronavirus-not-a-major-threat--not-something-citizens-of-us-should-be-worried-about

That was said January 24th.

There is a difference between the average Joe being worried about a thing and a government preparing for a thing.

[Renai]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

It is exactly like snatching the toilet paper from another customer who is waiting in line at the checkout (and handing the cashier an extra ten bucks so they let you cut in line). It's exactly the kind of behavior we would find despicable from another person.
The mask shipment ordered for Berlin was on the airport to be flown over when they swooped in and took it.

FWIW, Germany has more cases per capita than the US (1100 vs 840). So nope, no justification on that count either.

Germany isn't innocent of the same thing they are criticizing. They have blocked more than one shipment going through their country in route to another country (although not purchased from a German company). One example that gives a summary: https://www.thelocal.com/20200312/mask-hysteria

[regentrude]

20 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/world/europe/germany-coronavirus-death-rate.html   you might find this interesting.  Could it be that the customer already has a stocked closet, as well as less projected need in the near term, so could afford to give up a few rolls from the next delivery cart? 

There is no well stocked closet, and the implication makes me really upset because it hits close to home. My sister is a doctor in Germany at a major university hospital. For several weeks now, she has been going into the OR with a simple cloth mask she has to take home each night and launder and boil to sterilize. That is all they have.  

While Germany may have a lower death rate than other countries, they absolutely have a shortage of protective equipment.

[regentrude]

58 minutes ago, Pen said:

Is Germany out of PPE for health workers and asking the public to make masks for health workers?  If so, then I agree that Germany is equally in need.  

As I wrote in another post just now:

my sister is a doctor in a major university hospital in Germany (so no small rural hospital). All she has had for weeks now to wear into the OR is one simple cloth mask she has to take home every night after her shift, and wash and boil or steam iron to sterilize it, so she can wear this mask again the next day. 
A cloth mask that is soaked after a couple of hours  (which is normally a complete no-no), but she has to wear all day.

They do not have enough paper towels in the scrub room for doctors and nurses to dry their hands.

[Renai]

Government PPE snatching is going on in many countries, not just US or Germany. As much as this is going on between countries, I'm wondering what the overall outcome will be as far as international relations.

[RootAnn]

Abbott Labs has shipped almost 200,000 of their 5 min rapid tests to 21 states by the end of the day yesterday.

APR 3 2020

We began distributing our rapid point-of-care COVID-19 tests for our ID NOW system on Tuesday, March 31. By the end of today we will have shipped more than 190,000 rapid tests to customers in 21 states. We're producing 50,000 tests every day now and we'll continue to ship daily to more customers in more places.

https://www.abbott.com/corpnewsroom/product-and-innovation/an-update-on-abbotts-work-on-COVID-19-testing.html

[RootAnn]

As a constitutionalist & a big proponent of privacy, the actions taken by the federal government and the use of tech data to fight the spread of COVID-19 sadden and worry me. Yet, they offer hope that less people will be infected, sicken, and die.

The governor of my state (Nebraska) just finally announced state-wide directed health measures (his version of a lockdown). He's been phasing them in by region/county from the bigger population centers and harder hit regions for the last two weeks or so while asking the whole state to observe physical distancing & voluntary shutdown of non-essential businesses. In a reminder of what those instructions are, he shared this about the actions of the people of the state over the last two weeks as collected by Google (using phone location data, I assume).

These numbers don't really make sense (24% decrease in hours at work but only a 8% increase in time in your neighborhood?). I guess the park info explains it? The local mayor just closed down all playgrounds & public parks in my tiny rural town, but did leave the walking trails open.

My state has done very limited testing so far. We have a lot of travel through our state but are mostly rural. Our biggest population center is barely a million people, so lots of room to spread out. Our peak will likely be shifted later than other areas.

Quote

There has been a 34% decline in visits to retailers and restaurants, an 18% decline in visits to transit stations, and a 24% decrease in hours spent in the workplace.

Meanwhile, there has been an 8% increase in hours spent in residential areas.  This indicates that people are spending more time at home.

There has been a 109% increase in visits to parks.

Edited April 4, 2020 by RootAnn
Wonky quote format ...

[EKS]

27 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

When that is the message, however, and then citizens are being castigated for being confused on the severity or significance of the threat, that’s where I take issue.  

Except that wasn't the point of the article you linked.

[Pen]

27 minutes ago, regentrude said:

As I wrote in another post just now:

my sister is a doctor in a major university hospital in Germany (so no small rural hospital). All she has had for weeks now to wear into the OR is one simple cloth mask she has to take home every night after her shift, and wash and boil or steam iron to sterilize it, so she can wear this mask again the next day. 
A cloth mask that is soaked after a couple of hours  (which is normally a complete no-no), but she has to wear all day.

They do not have enough paper towels in the scrub room for doctors and nurses to dry their hands.

 

All around bad.   Tragic. 

My sister and bil are surgeons in USA (big city hospital, but not teaching center) and don’t have adequate equipment either . 

However, they have so far been a little luckier that almost everything they normally do has been shut down completely. (Not so good for the patients.)  And my sister’s area of expertise tends not to be needed if everyone is staying home and not needing trauma repairs.  So they are mostly at home with their little kids, and hoping the children don’t end up orphans.  

 

[Arcadia]

14 minutes ago, square_25 said:

That would be interesting. Probably largely automated, I would guess? I don't know a ton about this. This would probably make things more expensive, yes? 

Maybe as “expensive” as when I was a kid in the 70s/80s before my country of origin let a lot more foreign workers into factories to lower cost of production. While reducing labor cost is one factor, the countries holding the raw materials are still at an advantage manufacturing wise.
My neighbors who were my parent’s age went from getting a low wage at manufacturing plants to a much lower wage at fast foods, and the retail price didn’t go down with lower cost, company profits went up. 

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

All around bad.   Tragic. 

My sister and bil are surgeons in USA (big city hospital, but not teaching center) and don’t have adequate equipment either . 

However, they have so far been a little luckier that almost everything they normally do has been shut down completely. (Not so good for the patients.)  And my sister’s area of expertise tends not to be needed if everyone is staying home and not needing trauma repairs.  So they are mostly at home with their little kids, and hoping the children don’t end up orphans.  

My sister is an anethesiologist, so she is needed for any kind of surgery and would be needed in the ICU when they have to put patients on ventilators. She has been lucky so far because she can still perform "normal" surgeries (while all elective surgeries are canceled, cancer or appendixes don't care about the stay at home order)  and it's not yet all-hands-on-deck in the ICU.

Edited April 4, 2020 by regentrude

[Pen]

5 minutes ago, square_25 said:

It's not an about face. It's called "learning about the problem," which is a big part of science. You can't overreact to every single virus coming out of China, or our country would be at a permanent standstill. You learn more information, you cope, you adjust. The problem with the US response was that it didn't act on information known in any kind of reasonable way. We had all of February to prepare. 

Here's an interview from back in January: 

https://www.voanews.com/episode/china-coronavirus-outbreak-4172351

He literally says "Right now, the risk is low, but it could change if we get human to human transmission, so we have to take it very seriously." He also says it could turn into a pandemic. 

 

I think If we had ordered a stop to all overseas shipments in February when we appeared to have almost no cases while other countries were already having trouble, that too would have been strongly criticized no doubt.  Instead of an analogy to theft of TP it would have been analogized to hoarding unneeded TP. 

 

[Pen]

3 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Remember the caterwauling about closing down travel?  Yeah.

 

And also if DPA had been invoked before people saw USA cases in 100,000 range and started clamoring for it, I think that would have created huge fears of government tyranny, a belief that something most Americans still seemed to regard as a mild unimportant flu like illness, was being used as an excuse for wrongful government action.

I expect in my blue state area there would have been many protest marches at close quarters causing even worse early viral spread. 

 

[Pen]

7 minutes ago, square_25 said:

OK, maybe early March would have been fine for that. Obviously there are trade-offs here. 

But I think getting an idea of how big the stockpile is and starting to ramp up PPE production (which, at that point, may have simply involved giving big contracts to companies voluntarily) is a no-brainer. 

 

Sure.  Lots of things might have been much better if only ___ had been done ___.   (Probably.  Though actually we don’t know for certain ever what would have happened if some different choices had been made at past moments.) 

What did you think in early March? Still were going on play dates or similar right? 

Whatever happened in early March that cannone changed now. 

We are now at this moment.  But you (and all the pundits and all of us) now have the luxury of 20-20 hindsight.   And it is way easier even now to argue about the past than to make a good decision for this moment. Especially a good decision in bad circumstances. 

 

Btw, I know it is largely rhetorical, but since rhetoric can start to be believed by one’s own mind, I don’t believe your  7year old can actually organize this situation better than the powers that be are managing, extremely flawed job of it that they are doing, notwithstanding.   That’s an emotional feeling you have, but not even for the most brilliant well organized 7 year old would that be real. 

[Pen]

11 minutes ago, square_25 said:

OK, but I do tend to talk about what needs to be done moving forward. Some of the things I'm mentioning were things I was talking about before they happened. 

Specifically, I want them to invoke the DPA to mass-produce PPE like now.

 

They are. 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

https://www.battelle.org/newsroom/news-details/battelle-deploys-decontamination-system-for-reusing-n95-masks
 

I know that Batelle’s sterilization machine was referred to before. It is now being assembled in my state (and a couple of others) for immediate use.  

[ElizabethB]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

That would be interesting. Probably largely automated, I would guess? I don't know a ton about this. This would probably make things more expensive, yes? 

“In 2011, after the H1N1 pandemic ended, we had to lay off 150 people,” he recalls. “One hundred fifty people that saved a lot of hospitals from closing their doors were rewarded by losing their jobs. And that's not going to happen again.”

Full article (there was another similar one I couldn't find that said that the masks were about 5x more expensive to make in the US than in China.)

ETA: It also talks about them ramping up production, although the other more recent article I couldn't find talks about it more.

https://www.wired.com/story/surreal-frenzy-inside-us-biggest-mask-maker/

Edited April 4, 2020 by ElizabethB

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Except this may be more akin to the situation where there’s only one oxygen mask and you’re deciding who gets it.  Not a good place to be globally.  

There is nothing about where we are globally that could be called a “good place”.   There will be ruffled feathers and I think think is a good example of why closer attention should be paid to where important items are being produced.  I hope that lesson won’t be forgotten once the crisis has passed.  I don’t know all the details of the shipment to Germany, but it may be that they were not that company’s to sell to that buyer when the deal was made.  Things to be thankful for...that I am not the one negotiating all these deals.  I can barely keep my house clean without making people mad.

[RootAnn]

Spain has just passed Italy in number of cumulative cases according to worldometer. 

Spain's death toll is currently about 3,600 less than Italy's.

[SeaConquest]

For anyone interested, in accordance with our governor's directives to expand our healthcare workforce, the California Board of Registered Nursing has agreed to temporarily decrease our direct patient care requirements from 75% to 50%, so we can use simulations/mannequins and move forward with our programs (and get others graduated). Hopefully, we will hear something from our state nursing director this week and get moving again on the clinical portion of our courses soon. Most other states have already moved to do similarly (California being a hold out).

As I mentioned a few days ago, our governor also created the California Health Corps to recruit health professionals (including nursing students) to assist with the surge of patients. I nervously filled out the application and am waiting to be contacted to see what, if anything, I am able to do. Depending on where they are in school, nursing students will be able to work as either nursing assistants, LPNs, or as RNs on an emergency basis (without having to first pass the licensing exam). Many of the folks in my cohort also filled out apps, but we are not sure where they will place us because we did our skills check off for the RN required level of skills, but didn't yet complete our clinical hours for that level, so who knows. Now, I just need to get off my sorry butt and pass my didactic classes. So, no more procrastinating!! 🙂 

Edited April 4, 2020 by SeaConquest

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Mom2mthj said:

But wouldn’t the droplets from coughs and sneezes land on your hands which people promptly put to their face?  I think there is a difference between hands and general surfaces/packages sitting on a truck for hours being the main means of transmission.  Also, we are learning more about this new virus all the time so I don’t think the previous advice was wrong, but we have have learned more so they are adding recommendations rather than changing.

I had assumed the advice was linked to touching stuff then touching your face.  Here in Aus there’s been advice about pushing elevator buttons with your knuckle etc.  

[Terabith]

I see a huge difference between saying, "We will no longer export this product," (after fulfilling already placed orders) and seizing shipments on the way to a place.  I also do not understand telling states to bid against each other and the federal government bidding against them.  I don't understand why the federal government needs PPE or ventilators if it's not for the people in states (or territories or DC).  Who is it for then???  I'm quite sure that square's 7 year old could organize this better than it is being organized.  

Also, it's important to note that the US seized this order after not even not only not invoking the Defense Production Act but not even PLACING ORDERS.  

Edited April 4, 2020 by Terabith

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Except this may be more akin to the situation where there’s only one oxygen mask and you’re deciding who gets it.  Not a good place to be globally.  

 

Alas. Yes. I agree. 

[Ausmumof3]

36 minutes ago, Mom2mthj said:

There is nothing about where we are globally that could be called a “good place”.   There will be ruffled feathers and I think think is a good example of why closer attention should be paid to where important items are being produced.  I hope that lesson won’t be forgotten once the crisis has passed.  I don’t know all the details of the shipment to Germany, but it may be that they were not that company’s to sell to that buyer when the deal was made.  Things to be thankful for...that I am not the one negotiating all these deals.  I can barely keep my house clean without making people mad.

No kidding.  Our pm is not my favourite person but I feel kind of sorry for him right now.  

[Corraleno]

28 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I see a huge difference between saying, "We will no longer export this product," (after fulfilling already placed orders) and seizing shipments on the way to a place.  I also do not understand telling states to bid against each other and the federal government bidding against them.  I don't understand why the federal government needs PPE or ventilators if it's not for the people in states (or territories or DC).  Who is it for then???  I'm quite sure that square's 7 year old could organize this better than it is being organized.  

Also, it's important to note that the US seized this order after not even not only not invoking the Defense Production Act but not even PLACING ORDERS.  

I also see a difference between not allowing products that were manufactured in the US to leave the country, versus seizing shipments that were manufactured in China and legally sold to a 3rd country.  France is also claiming that US buyers stole a desperately needed shipment bound for France by paying three times the price, in cash, while the plane sat on the tarmac in Shanghai. That's just slimy. We are basically stealing orders from countries that planned better than we did, in order to cover up just how disorganized and screwed up the US response has been. 🤬

Edited April 4, 2020 by Corraleno

[Pen]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

I only saw the radio report, not a scientific study. He did not give details.
They started this week conducting a detailed study in the town that is one of the epicenters, but results are not yet available.

 

Maybe scientific study will come out so that we can read it. 

Culturing the virus might also have issues if the human cells I presume are being used for the culture medium are more or less susceptible to being infected by the virus.  And the in vitro culture may not be same as what happens if someone breathes the virus on into real lungs. 

 

[Pen]

7 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I also see a difference between not allowing products that were manufactured in the US to leave the country, versus seizing shipments that were manufactured in China and legally sold to a 3rd country.  France is also claiming that US buyers stole a desperately needed shipment bound for France by paying three times the price, in cash, while the plane sat on the tarmac in Shanghai. That's just slimy. We are basically stealing orders from countries that planned better than we did, in order to cover up just how disorganized and screwed up the US response has been. 🤬

 

I am pretty sure I have seen reverse asserted also — maybe in Forbes? Or USA Today ? Can’t recall.  That foreign entities outbid US entities trying to get supplies. 

 

[lewelma]

2 hours ago, square_25 said:

But the DPA was only invoked for ventilators.  I don't know the status on those, but I'd be interested if you know.

The news from 5 days ago from here said that NZ was trying to purchase 200 ventilators and had to be 'wily' to get them because the USA was attempting to buy 100,000 which was the entire annual world-wide production.  

When the government spokesman said 'wily' that got us thinking.  Perhaps it is not about have the money to purchase, perhaps now it is about having something the other wants in *trade*. So NZ will sell you N95 masks if you sell us ventilators.  My guess is that this will become more and more common.  Something in trade in addition to the $$.  Unfortunately, not all countries have something to trade that is in huge demand in a pandemic. 

Edited April 4, 2020 by lewelma

[Corraleno]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I am pretty sure I have seen reverse asserted also — maybe in Forbes? Or USA Today ? Can’t recall.  That foreign entities outbid US entities trying to get supplies. 

 

Outbidding another country on a contract for a future order is one thing, stealing an order that had already been contracted and was in the process of fulfillment is another.

[Ausmumof3]

20 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I also see a difference between not allowing products that were manufactured in the US to leave the country, versus seizing shipments that were manufactured in China and legally sold to a 3rd country.  France is also claiming that US buyers stole a desperately needed shipment bound for France by paying three times the price, in cash, while the plane sat on the tarmac in Shanghai. That's just slimy. We are basically stealing orders from countries that planned better than we did, in order to cover up just how disorganized and screwed up the US response has been. 🤬

But was the company that did the manufacturing US owned?  I’m not arguing with you just trying to understand the implications of this kind of action.  Our power network is majority owned by a Hong Kong based company.  I’m going to post what’s a ridiculous scenario; If there was somehow a sudden shortage of power poles around the world could they technically come and dig the power pole up from outside my house and take it to Hong Kong?  Or would they be illegal?

a more realistic example is a lot of massive farms in Aus are being bought by foreign investors.  When older farming families want to sell out there’s rarely enough money locally to outbid foreign investors.  In the (scarily possibile) scenario that there is a global food shortage does Australia have any say as to whether that food produced on Australian soil by a foreign owned country actually leaves its shore or not?

[Corraleno]

1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said:

But was the company that did the manufacturing US owned?  I’m not arguing with you just trying to understand the implications of this kind of action.  Our power network is majority owned by a Hong Kong based company.  I’m going to post what’s a ridiculous scenario; If there was somehow a sudden shortage of power poles around the world could they technically come and dig the power pole up from outside my house and take it to Hong Kong?  Or would they be illegal?

a more realistic example is a lot of massive farms in Aus are being bought by foreign investors.  When older farming families want to sell out there’s rarely enough money locally to outbid foreign investors.  In the (scarily possibile) scenario that there is a global food shortage does Australia have any say as to whether that food produced on Australian soil by a foreign owned country actually leaves its shore or not?

The masks were manufactured in China by a US-owned company (3M). And I agree with you that the precedent this sets would be very concerning for the future, if products — including food — produced by foreign-owned businesses could be seized by those foreign governments if they chose. More than 30 million acres of US farmland are owned by foreign companies and investors. Smithfield Foods, the largest pork producer in the world, is Chinese owned. If the US can seize masks manufactured in China and sold to Europe, then what's to stop the Chinese from seizing food and other goods produced in the US if there's a shortage of those things? 

[lewelma]

7 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

But was the company that did the manufacturing US owned?...If there was somehow a sudden shortage of power poles around the world could they technically come and dig the power pole up from outside my house and take it to Hong Kong?  

As for international companies and power over national supplies, we have sad news here in NZ.

Bauer, a German company, owns all of our national news magazines (we have 4 - The Listnener, North and South, Woman's Day, and Next).  They chose to close up shop and stop all production last week.  They would not take a government subsidy, and they tried to sell them to the government for 1$ but apparently they had massive debt and a huge retirement debt. The government did not feel it should be the owner of the news, so didn't take on the debt and take them over. People here are very sad.  These are not just *some* magazines, they are *all* of our magazines. Bauer was clearly already in a poor position going into the pandemic, but advertising has dried up due to Covid19 and they don't expect it will ever recover to pre Covid19 levels.  So they have just shut down our cultural heritage. Would this be the same if it was a NZ company?  I just don't think so.  

[Pen]

6 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

But was the company that did the manufacturing US owned?

 

Not sure.  I think it has mostly been an issue with 3M which is a US based corporation. But I don’t know details for shipments in question.

certainly not “US owned “ in literal sense of a government owned company. Not like a communist country might literally own everything 

6 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 I’m not arguing with you just trying to understand the implications of this kind of action.  Our power network is majority owned by a Hong Kong based company.  I’m going to post what’s a ridiculous scenario; If there was somehow a sudden shortage of power poles around the world could they technically come and dig the power pole up from outside my house and take it to Hong Kong?  Or would they be illegal?

a more realistic example is a lot of massive farms in Aus are being bought by foreign investors.  When older farming families want to sell out there’s rarely enough money locally to outbid foreign investors.  In the (scarily possibile) scenario that there is a global food shortage does Australia have any say as to whether that food produced on Australian soil by a foreign owned country actually leaves its shore or not?

 

Yes. Potentially that would probably be legal if it is their power pole.

It is quite frightening. We also have much land on west coast of US bought up by Chinese entities, and similar in other parts of US with other countries predominant.   There’s a big question about US versus China (etc) rights to it.   Some countries have significant limits on purchase of land etc by foreign governments, businesses and nationals.  I guess Australia and USA don’t so much. 

Possibly eminent domain laws would allow a certain amount of control.

 

[Ausmumof3]

7 minutes ago, lewelma said:

As for international companies and power over national supplies, we have sad news here in NZ.

Bauer, a German company, owns all of our national news magazines (we have 4 - The Listnener, North and South, Woman's Day, and Next).  They chose to close up shop and stop all production last week.  They would not take a government subsidy, and they tried to sell them to the government for 1$ but apparently they had massive debt and a huge retirement debt. The government did not feel it should be the owner of the news, so didn't take on the debt and take them over. People here are very sad.  These are not just *some* magazines, they are *all* of our magazines. Bauer was clearly already in a poor position going into the pandemic, but advertising has dried up due to Covid19 and they don't expect it will ever recover to pre Covid19 levels.  So they have just shut down our cultural heritage. Would this be the same if it was a NZ company?  I just don't think so.  

All our little local newspapers just closed as well.  Now I’m curious to check who owned them.

edited to add looks like they were owned by News Corp Australia. (Subsidiary arm of news Corp)

I am glad we have the ABC as a bit of a counterbalance to the for profit news though I wouldn’t want to see all news gov owned.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Ausmumof3

[Arcadia]

@Ausmumof3@Pen 

Don’t know where Holland America are going to house these passengers in Atlanta and San Francisco. Coral Princess is another mess.

https://www.businessinsider.com/holland-america-florida-ships-zaandam-rotterdam-flight-details-2020-4

“In its approved plan, Holland America included information on what will be done for any guests "whose home countries will not accept inbound citizens."

"These guests will be flown on the Atlanta or San Francisco charter flights on Friday," the document said.”

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article241768491.html

“Two people have died aboard the Coral Princess, which docked in Port Miami Saturday morning and began to unload people shortly after. 

Miami-Dade Mayor Carlos Gimenez said two people were taken from the ship to Larkin Community Hospital. Two others are being sent to Tampa for treatment. During an online press conference, Gimenez offered condolences to family members of two passengers who died aboard the Princess. “It’s heart-breaking news,” he said.”

[Arcadia]

@TCB@Pen@mathnerd  explains about the prone position being used in hospitals in the last two paragraphs 

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/hospitals-running-short-of-key-ventilator-drug/2267317/?_osource=SocialFlowFB_BAYBrand

““It’s another shortage of concern,” said UCSF pulmonologist John Balmes, about the two scarce paralytic drugs, cisatracurium and rocuronium. Both help those patients with acute respiratory distress syndrome, ARDS, efficiently use the flow of oxygen while ventilators are keeping them alive. 

Jennifer Esteen, a San Francisco General psychiatric nurse and union organizer, confirms the shortages at SF General, where a dozen patients are in the intensive care unit and nine are currently on ventilators.

“They are not in an emergency today, but given the rate of admissions,” Esteen says, “and need for ventilators increasing,  they are expecting to have an increase of these drugs that go with people being on ventilators.”

University of Utah adjunct professor Erin Fox, who tracks drug shortages nationwide, says that rocuronium was short even before the COVID-19 outbreak. Also running short, she says, are sedatives used during the intubation process to put patients on ventilators –  with the three most used being midazolam, propofol and fentanyl.  

“All those medicines, we need more than we have ever needed before … we need a huge surge of these,” she says. “So just like people are talking about we need more masks, we need more ventilators -- you actually can’t make a ventilator work for a patient unless you have the sedatives and the paralytic agents that you need.” 

Dr. Balmes said the paralytic drugs serve to immobilize skeletal muscles so patients with ARDS need less oxygen to survive, given the syndrome deprives them of oxygen as fluid fills their lungs. 

“It makes it harder to treat severe COVID-19 ARDS” without the drugs, he said. “It’s already hard enough because these patients are very sick.”

Balmes said the only option doctors may be left with is placing patients prone on their stomach, which helps to restrict their natural breathing while they are sedated. 

But that process is labor intensive, requires specially designed beds, and is difficult to perform when hospitals are trying to care for so many patients at once, authorities say. Several patients at SF General have been treated by being placed in the prone position.”

[Ausmumof3]

8 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@Ausmumof3@Pen 

Don’t know where Holland America are going to house these passengers in Atlanta and San Francisco. Coral Princess is another mess.

https://www.businessinsider.com/holland-america-florida-ships-zaandam-rotterdam-flight-details-2020-4

“In its approved plan, Holland America included information on what will be done for any guests "whose home countries will not accept inbound citizens."

"These guests will be flown on the Atlanta or San Francisco charter flights on Friday," the document said.”

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article241768491.html

“Two people have died aboard the Coral Princess, which docked in Port Miami Saturday morning and began to unload people shortly after. 

Miami-Dade Mayor Carlos Gimenez said two people were taken from the ship to Larkin Community Hospital. Two others are being sent to Tampa for treatment. During an online press conference, Gimenez offered condolences to family members of two passengers who died aboard the Princess. “It’s heart-breaking news,” he said.”

Nsw police were running their biggest ever peace time operation today to restock and refuel cruise ships so they can leave.   They called it operation nemesis.  Which seemed... appropriate.

[Ausmumof3]

US passed 300,000 cases and 8,000 deaths.

[lewelma]

Will the cruise industry ever recover?  They have had such negative news.

[Ausmumof3]

Italy had a lower number of new cases and lower number of deaths again.  They really seem to be turning a corner . A hopeful sign that lockdowns really work.

[Pen]

https://youtu.be/LsxVRnNGl5A

John Campbell update—focus on USA, UK, Australia. 

 

[Pen]

11 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@TCB@Pen@mathnerd  explains about the prone position being used in hospitals in the last two paragraphs 

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/hospitals-running-short-of-key-ventilator-drug/2267317/?_osource=SocialFlowFB_BAYBrand

““It’s another shortage of concern,” said UCSF pulmonologist John Balmes, about the two scarce paralytic drugs, cisatracurium and rocuronium. Both help those patients with acute respiratory distress syndrome, ARDS, efficiently use the flow of oxygen while ventilators are keeping them alive. 

Jennifer Esteen, a San Francisco General psychiatric nurse and union organizer, confirms the shortages at SF General, where a dozen patients are in the intensive care unit and nine are currently on ventilators.

“They are not in an emergency today, but given the rate of admissions,” Esteen says, “and need for ventilators increasing,  they are expecting to have an increase of these drugs that go with people being on ventilators.”

University of Utah adjunct professor Erin Fox, who tracks drug shortages nationwide, says that rocuronium was short even before the COVID-19 outbreak. Also running short, she says, are sedatives used during the intubation process to put patients on ventilators –  with the three most used being midazolam, propofol and fentanyl.  

“All those medicines, we need more than we have ever needed before … we need a huge surge of these,” she says. “So just like people are talking about we need more masks, we need more ventilators -- you actually can’t make a ventilator work for a patient unless you have the sedatives and the paralytic agents that you need.” 

Dr. Balmes said the paralytic drugs serve to immobilize skeletal muscles so patients with ARDS need less oxygen to survive, given the syndrome deprives them of oxygen as fluid fills their lungs. 

“It makes it harder to treat severe COVID-19 ARDS” without the drugs, he said. “It’s already hard enough because these patients are very sick.”

Balmes said the only option doctors may be left with is placing patients prone on their stomach, which helps to restrict their natural breathing while they are sedated. 

But that process is labor intensive, requires specially designed beds, and is difficult to perform when hospitals are trying to care for so many patients at once, authorities say. Several patients at SF General have been treated by being placed in the prone position.”

 

What has happened to opiates or opioids seized as “illegal drug trade” drugs I wonder.