Please help me interpret my feelings

[saraha]

Warning: Long back story, question at the end 😉

So, Christmas and ALL it's trappings has been my sole responsibility for my entire married life, 20 years. I married into a family that had some traditions, and expected a lot in the gift department. For the last 5 years I have been asking (some years begging) for a change in the way we do Christmas. I initially started out asking to just go away with our nuclear family and skip Christmas. At the time, I was burnt the heck out, and was grappling with depression and 6 kids under 15. I got an immediate no, without even consideration even while I bawled in his face. Over the next 4 years I asked every year if we could go away. Some years he would ask why and I would explain it to him (the burnout, the impossible task of making our budget stretch to keep up with the inlaws, the complete lack of respect for my time and wishes, the ridiculous amounts of time expected to spend with inlaws, the recitals and costumes to be made for them, and more) which has only gotten worse over the years. Some years I got a straight up no, no discussion. This year, I started my yearly ask, he was open to "listening" before he shot me down (turns out he takes my hatred for Christmas very personally), then shot me down.

The next day I sent him a text that said I absolutely refuse to do any shopping/buying of gifts this year, and if he wants anyone to receive gifts he would have to do it all himself. I continue to plan our advent calendar and will make the food that is asked of me and all the activities the kids are involved in etc. but I was NOT buying any presents. ( I later relented to taking the kids shopping one day so they could shop for each other and their grandparents and the cousin names that he insisted they draw even though I had the family about talked into not doing that this year) This was met with anger and feelings of betrayal (Like I said he took it very personally) but finally said that he would do the shopping if I promise not to be a grump about Christmas and his refusal of a vacation and not to bring it up again this year. (I had brought it up multiple times because he wouldnt even talk to me about it and I did say during our conversation that I would compromise with just changing the way we do things and not necessarily going away, but he wasn't interested in that either) Fast forward a month and today I get a call that he is not coming home, he still has more shopping to do, and then he went on to vent frustration about shopping, buying gifts, trying to make everything even, keeping track of finances (which he has quit doing and we are putting stuff on credit!) and having to look for stuff to fill in because some are easier to buy for than others, basically a lot of the complaints I had explained to him. He said "I guess I heard you say all this, but now I understand where you are coming from and we can talk about doing something different next year."

Now, he has not even had to do all of the Christmas stuff, just the bulk of the shopping (which for so many is a huge task) and he is not even trying to stay in budget. And yet, he finally sees my point.

So here is my real question, why did I bust out into tears instead of be happy that I am getting somewhere? Instead of being happy that he finally sees my perspective, I just started crying and all I could think about was "Oh, NOW you get it, and it is now worthy of change!?! And even though it has been all day, I am still feeling like that?

I will say there was a victory 3 years ago when I got Christmas dinner changed from 12 on Christmas day 5. I really could go on and on about all of my complaints tied to this holiday, most of which are exacerbated by my feeling completely ignored and disrespected in this area. Ugh. Maybe I am answering my own question, maybe I can't be happy that he finally sees what I have been saying all along because I am too bitter. Bitter is a good word to describe how I feel.

Anyway, if you read all of this, or even if you skimmed, thanks

[saraha]

How do I get past this bitter part and just be happy he is more open to changing things?

[Noreen Claire]

Oh, (((hugs))).

I can completely understand your feelings. I would be ANGRY. It isn't that he finally respects your feelings, it's that *he's* finally been inconvenienced. He isn't even doing all the work you are/were doing! I'm not sure how to navigate the discussion going forward, and I have no advice to give, as I am terrible at discussing my feelings and having hard conversations (I always end up crying in my frustration), but I see your pain and frustration and you have every right to have all the feels. 

[PrincessMommy]

I think you are feeling this way because he still is not listening to YOU.  He is now listening to himself.  He is still not respecting your feelings about Christmas and how he has made your Christmas miserable just to please him.  

Yes, it's great he finally "gets' it, but does he get that you get a say in the marriage too?  Does he get that he has disrespected you for 20yrs?  

[saraha]

Yes! And that doesn't even touch the fact that now his parents are elderly, they don't want to shop anymore, they just want to give us money and have me shop for the kids, wrap and put under inlaws tree! Or the fact that they (until a few years ago when I put my foot down) expected us to be there at 12 on Christmas Day, then come back day after Christmas, then get together for New Years Eve, THEN come back New Years Day for bil's birthday!

 

[saraha]

I think you all are right. I want to be happy to finally be getting a crack at getting things my way, but I don't feel happy. And when he gets home. he will NOT understand why I am not excited that he "gets it" and I wish I had the words to explain it to him.

[hornblower]

I think it might be a combination of relief at finally being really seen and understood, and anger that it took this to see it, instead of believing you when you first said it. 

I don't think it would be easy to get past it. I would be bitter. It would take a lot of talking. 

I think also, I listen together to The Vinyl Cafe episode called Dave Cooks the Turkey because there's an epic speech there from Morley about her life as a train.... I think if couples listen to it together it might be a helpful conversation opener 
 

 

[ktgrok]

You are upset because he confirmed that he never really was listening or taking you seriously, all those years. That's why. 

That said, gently.....it sounds like he feels like you don't care about his wishes for the holiday season either. You don't care that he wants/needs all the hoopla to feel happy during the holidays, and he doesn't care that you HATE all the hoopla during the holidays. 

It is the lack of communication that is upsetting you, not the change of heart that he has had. 

[ktgrok]

15 minutes ago, saraha said:

How do I get past this bitter part and just be happy he is more open to changing things?

You can be both. Happy you can change things, and pissed as hell that you have a husband who doesn't seem to listen to you or value your feelings or happiness. Two totally separate things. One of which sounds like it is likely part of a larger picture of communication issues or other problems that may need to be addressed in therapy. And they should be addressed, head on. Not wrapped up in this specific example, but in the general terms of "I feel like you don't take my feelings, thoughts, or needs seriously." that is the conversation that has to happen before you will be happy. 

[PeachyDoodle]

If it were me, I think I'd be feeling regret and mourning that all these bad years could have been different if he'd just listened to me. And very frustrated as well. Which are completely valid feelings.

I think that, for me, after the holidays were over and I'd had time to process these feelings, I would probably start to feel the relief set in. And hopefully then dh and I would begin to have a conversation about Christmas 2020 and what we wanted to do differently. And that's when I would start to really feel more hopeful. But I'd definitely be having that conversation ASAP after the holidays so that his memories of the frustration didn't have time to dissipate!

[saraha]

17 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

You are upset because he confirmed that he never really was listening or taking you seriously, all those years. That's why. 

That said, gently.....it sounds like he feels like you don't care about his wishes for the holiday season either. You don't care that he wants/needs all the hoopla to feel happy during the holidays, and he doesn't care that you HATE all the hoopla during the holidays. 

It is the lack of communication that is upsetting you, not the change of heart that he has had. 

This pretty much sums it up perfectly for both him and me.

[sassenach]

40 minutes ago, saraha said:

How do I get past this bitter part and just be happy he is more open to changing things?

Gently, it really sounds like you guys could benefit from marriage counseling. This is about more than Christmas. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Well, I’m more with him on this.

When you have a family that has great things going, already up and running and established, it’s pretty special and valuable; and it’s part of you.  And when someone dumps all over it, without having a good alternative to propose, that hurts.  You’ve asked him to give up a great deal for not much, and you’ve made it impossible for him to have a nice time either.

I think your ultimatum was completely reasonable, but that it should have been delivered back in August or so so that he would have time to fit this in.  And I think that if you’re going to be a guest, you should be a good one.  I think you could go a step further and divide up responsibilities differently, putting more on him, including the budget and saving up for it, but again, earlier so that there is time to adjust and act.  

 

[saraha]

I totally see your point here. You are right that I was asking him to give up something he loved for something he did not value, I hadn't thought of it like that before. I wasn't asking to give it up permanently, but I never got the chance to get a break and he was never interested in helping, he just wanted me to make it happen. You are also right that I should have given him the ultimatum in August instead of November, I guess after so long it has become such a THING between us that I could have been more mature about it. 

But I will add that I have always been a good guest. Any problems we had were not shared or hinted at gatherings because at the end of the day I do love his parents

[freesia]

7 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Well, I’m more with him on this.

When you have a family that has great things going, already up and running and established, it’s pretty special and valuable; and it’s part of you.  And when someone dumps all over it, without having a good alternative to propose, that hurts.  You’ve asked him to give up a great deal for not much, and you’ve made it impossible for him to have a nice time either.

I think your ultimatum was completely reasonable, but that it should have been delivered back in August or so so that he would have time to fit this in.  And I think that if you’re going to be a guest, you should be a good one.  I think you could go a step further and divide up responsibilities differently, putting more on him, including the budget and saving up for it, but again, earlier so that there is time to adjust and act.  

 

Except that he’s never been willing to do any of the things that made it work—it’s all been on her until she insisted. It was a great thing, that was tons of work that he refused to do. I think a month was fine—better than a week. 

I also think the onus shouldn’t be on her to provide an awesome alternative ( although plenty of folks live going away.). They, as a couple, should try to figure out what works for them. And, certainly, if one person expects or needs something that is a great deal of work, they should be willing to do it themselves-not set it up as a love test. ( and I say this as someone who’s love language is helps.)

[Shoeless]

1 minute ago, freesia said:

Except that he’s never been willing to do any of the things that made it work—it’s all been on her until she insisted. It was a great thing, that was tons of work that he refused to do. I think a month was fine—better than a week. 

I also think the onus shouldn’t be on her to provide an awesome alternative ( although plenty of folks live going away.). They, as a couple, should try to figure out what works for them. And, certainly, if one person expects or needs something that is a great deal of work, they should be willing to do it themselves-not set it up as a love test. ( and I say this as someone who’s love language is helps.)

 

I agree with you 100%.  

I get really tired of men who insist on having a magical, perfect Christmas, who also do zero work to bring about any of that perfect magic.  

I'd be pretty excited to have a holiday where someone else did all the cleaning, cooking, decorating, shopping, and all I had to do was kick back, receive presents, and eat tasty treats. 

[Scarlett]

Your whole story from beginning to end stressed me out so bad and makes me feel so bad for you,  

i don’t celebrate Christmas and so I am sure I don’t really get it but I am glad you said no this year and I am curious why you didn’t say it years ago.  

[saraha]

2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

 that if the other person doesn't 'get it', the fault must be theirs. They'll explain better next time. Next year the conversation will go better, and he'll surely understand this time.

I could not have said it better myself.

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Personally, I think it is not OK to lump a burned out, depressed loved one who is trying her best to communicate her needs with responsibility for ensuring your Christmas values are carried out, but that's just me.

Any of those years where he refused to even consider the OP's depression, burn out and need to be relieved of this burden, he could have taken it on himself, out of love and respect for his wife, and been responsible for creating the Christmas that was important to him and his family of origin. He chose not to do that, and continued to insist that OP carried the burden. That is not loving behaviour. Christmas traditions are irrelevant and meaningless in comparison to the health of one's marriage.

 

I should have been more clear - he FELT she wasn't being caring about his wants/needs regarding Christmas, Im not saying that is in fact true. 

And yes health is priority number one - mental and physical. 

This should have been husband and wife together attacking a problem, not her being thrown to fend for herself, making it her problem to handle. 

 

 

[saraha]

17 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Op I am also not feeling like you have communicated your feelings and thoughts all that well through the years.  I mean it seems like you discussed burn out and stress but it sounds like your only solution was to run away from it all by taking a vacation and skipping Christmas.  

It doesn’t seem like you ever asked for anything besides that.  Which if you did then I apologize that I missed it.  But asking to skip it all each year doesn’t sound like asking for help, it sounds more like wanting to run away from everything he enjoys. 

Again, if you had been  asking for things like shopping help, recital help, compromises on gift giving/shopping or whatever, then I apologize that I missed it.  

This makes me feel so sad because it hits home, and I can see how I set us both up for this situation.

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by saraha
realized that response wasn't accurate after re-reading post

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Well, I’m more with him on this.

When you have a family that has great things going, already up and running and established, it’s pretty special and valuable; and it’s part of you.  And when someone dumps all over it, without having a good alternative to propose, that hurts.  You’ve asked him to give up a great deal for not much, and you’ve made it impossible for him to have a nice time either.

I think your ultimatum was completely reasonable, but that it should have been delivered back in August or so so that he would have time to fit this in.  And I think that if you’re going to be a guest, you should be a good one.  I think you could go a step further and divide up responsibilities differently, putting more on him, including the budget and saving up for it, but again, earlier so that there is time to adjust and act.  

 

Really

shes been asking for years to change

they only had something great going on because she was doing a crazy amount of work

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

I totally see your point here. You are right that I was asking him to give up something he loved for something he did not value, I hadn't thought of it like that before. I wasn't asking to give it up permanently, but I never got the chance to get a break and he was never interested in helping, he just wanted me to make it happen. You are also right that I should have given him the ultimatum in August instead of November, I guess after so long it has become such a THING between us that I could have been more mature about it. 

But I will add that I have always been a good guest. Any problems we had were not shared or hinted at gatherings because at the end of the day I do love his parents

This is super nice, it's hard to be a good guest in that circumstance and I think I misinterpreted one of the things you quoted him as saying as meaning that you weren't.

I come at things like this from the perspective of dealing with a kid--if an adult it clueless, just like with teaching a kid something, sometimes one has to not just object but also say what to do instead.  Christmas can be so fraught.  I'm really glad that you asked for specific help this year; as I said up thread I think that was completely reasonable and that asking for more would be completely reasonable too.  

[saraha]

16 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Oh mama, I didn't mean to make you feel bad.  

None of us are perfect and we all have situations where we miscommunication and misinterpret.  That's normal in a marriage.

 

Let me ask you this.  Are there compromises you ARE willing to make?  For example, if you went to your DH and said something like "Ok DH, I realize that my asking for "change" was really asking you to abandon everything and that's not what I mean.  All of this stuff stresses me out, can we change X and Y and Z, and then in addition to that, can you share A and B and C by doing 1 and 2 and 3?"

IF you said something like that to him, are you actually ok with not eliminating EVERYTHING, if X and Y and Z change, and A and B and C become more equally shared?  (or however you present it....I am not sure of the details of everything that you have going on and what's overwhelming.  Maybe X and Y are eliminated, or whatever, you get the idea.)  Basically, what I am asking is....if you want *change* is change ok even if it doesn't eliminate it all?  Because if what you really want is to completely eliminate it all, then compromise is going to probably be more difficult.

 

 

And, on a related note......how would your kids feel if you really did eliminate it all?  Like if you just dropped everything and ran away to Key West from 12/20 to 12/27, would the kids love that?  

I know my kids would be devastated.  Not even Disney world would replace seeing Grandma and Grandpa for Christmas, for my kids.  For other kids, the situation is different and maybe a trip like that would be fantastic for them.

 

Oh, and one other thing, on the compromise front....going on a vacay doesn't even have to be every year.  Maybe the compromise is that on even years, vacay....on odd years....big family shindigs.  

I am willing to compromise. I guess the running away part always comes out when I am past my point. He has not been willing to compromise. I had to go to his mom and sister to see if we could change the time from 12 to 5 because for years I never got to play with my children for long on Christmas morning because I would be in the kitchen making my assigned foods.  Another year I started telling him and the kids to go to his moms the day after Christmas without me just so I can get my house back in order (he doesn't like this but he can't make me get in the car haha). Another year I got the kids to help me create a united front to not go over New Years and have our own party at home. So now we go Christmas Day and New Years Day and whoever wants to goes the day after Christmas. The kids and I  also go sometime during the week before Christmas to clean the house for guests because she can't do it all herself.

I am willing to compromise, he feels like that is enough compromise

Edited December 19, 2019 by saraha
accidently posted to early

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, saraha said:

I will say there was a victory 3 years ago when I got Christmas dinner changed from 12 on Christmas day 5. 

When changing the time of dinner for one of the many get togethers with the exact same people during the season is a "victory," I'd say that compromise and communicating needs is not something this DH understands in regard to Christmas. 

My family of origin has always shifted things around to work for people and to accommodate needs. Having a good thing going doesn't mean it can't change or that to beg or ask for something different is some terrible thing, and my family has traditions up to their eyeballs (most of which we can't participate in very often because of work schedules and distance).

OP, I feel angry when I "finally" get some traction after years of frustration. It's really, really disrespectful for my POV to be worth nothing. I personally need respect more than I need love. If that disrespect is combined with an unwillingness to look at facts, balance of workload, etc., I have told people it hurts as bad, or more, as having the person tell me they hate me. Seriously. 

I feel like my ability to cope is like a rubber band, and every year, the more it stretches, the harder it snaps when the tension is let off--the hurt is like that rubber band that has been let go all at once. Your DH could've eased off and shared that tension rather than forcing you to let it all go at once through inaction and a lack of caring about you and your needs.

[saraha]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I want to say that I don't feel that I am advising the OP to center her DH's particular Christmas ideals over her own.  Rather, I feel that, based only one what she posted, she seems to have spent 4 years presenting an all or nothing version.  I think that in a marriage, both parties have feelings worth considering that that he might very well have felt like her "lets just go away and skip it all" statements didn't offer any room for his feelings either.  All that means is that both parties weren't communicating well.  She tried to communicate, but since she gave an all or nothing solution, his response was all or nothing as well.  

I am seeing how my waiting until I couldn't take another thing and leading with all or nothing was counterproductive to my goals for sure.

[prairiewindmomma]

7 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

Make a list of ALL the tasks. When he gets home ask him which remaining jobs he’s going to do to make the entire holiday effort shared 50/50.

 

This was a helpful tactic for me years ago. I made a list of ALL of the tasks with time estimates and a budget and we talked about what was essential and what wasn’t. “Christmas” was about 125 hours of additional work on top of my very full life at the time (lots of little kids, homeschooling, etc). It made it difficult for him to minimize my feelings/brush off all responsibility onto me when it was laid out there in black and white.

[prairiewindmomma]

2 hours ago, PrincessMommy said:

I think you are feeling this way because he still is not listening to YOU.  He is now listening to himself.  He is still not respecting your feelings about Christmas and how he has made your Christmas miserable just to please him.  

Yes, it's great he finally "gets' it, but does he get that you get a say in the marriage too?  Does he get that he has disrespected you for 20yrs?  

I still come back to this.  

This current situation is just a snapshot of a much bigger, long standing (it seems) issue of him not truly hearing you, respecting your feelings, and acting in a way to help you. 

If you are the beast of burden carrying the cart full of the weight of Christmas responsibilities and you’ve broken a leg and a wheel has come off of the cart, the answer all of those years previously was not to keep demanding that you make delivery on time. His behavior was not loving or supportive or anything one should aspire to.

[SamanthaCarter]

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

This was a helpful tactic for me years ago. I made a list of ALL of the tasks with time estimates and a budget and we talked about what was essential and what wasn’t. “Christmas” was about 125 hours of additional work on top of my very full life at the time (lots of little kids, homeschooling, etc). It made it difficult for him to minimize my feelings/brush off all responsibility onto me when it was laid out there in black and white.

This is awesome. I feel like it’s something I should have done. The tasks do sneak up though. Relatives age, kids start having more activities and more specific wants (for presents), more kids means more budgetary stretch etc. 

OP, I don’t have any advice, but I will pray for the conversations that you and DH need to have over the next two weeks or so. I believe you are on the right track and have received some good advice. ❤️

[ttt]

Do you get to spend ANY time during the holidays with your family of origin?  

[gardenmom5]

I would assume the tears are for, he's still not respecting you by "hearing" you - he's just freaking because he's been forced to take on a big task (good for you for refusing to paly that game this year.) and wear a pair of your shoes this year.

it's also relief, this is something that has been so stressful. tears are cathartic.

I had this type of "argument'" with dh over thanksgiving.  he had some norman Rockwell idea in his head of what he wanted it to be.  I (and our oldest) came to loath thanksgiving.  I couldn't get through to him the reality versus his "dream".  I got him to agree to take one break, where dinner got moved to his sister's house.  he *finally* saw what we had been complaining about for years. we still had it with her one or two more times (but not at our house), and then that was it.  He was too angry at what was going on, and he couldn't deny it anymore.   never again.  It still took me five years to stop hating thanksgiving. (my stress for it would start rising in sep. every year.)

[saraha]

12 minutes ago, ttt said:

Do you get to spend ANY time during the holidays with your family of origin?  

My mom is so undemanding. When we got married, she told me not to worry about coming to her house on Christmas day, that I needed to carve out that time for "my" family (boy if I had known then) so we travel an 1.5 hours to her house on Christmas Eve after he gets off work. A few years ago I talked her into taking us to her church service since we never got to attend our church's services because of being at the different family things. So we go to church, eat take out pizza or tacos or fried chicken and hang out for a while, then come home and send the kids to bed so that we can wrap presents. He loves to wrap presents so he puts in a movie and we go to work.

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, saraha said:

How do I get past this bitter part and just be happy he is more open to changing things?

Time.

3 hours ago, saraha said:

Yes! And that doesn't even touch the fact that now his parents are elderly, they don't want to shop anymore, they just want to give us money and have me shop for the kids, wrap and put under inlaws tree! Or the fact that they (until a few years ago when I put my foot down) expected us to be there at 12 on Christmas Day, then come back day after Christmas, then get together for New Years Eve, THEN come back New Years Day for bil's birthday!

 

amazon gift cards.  if you order ahead from amazon - they'll send nifty boxes to put them in.

I'd refuse to purchase, wrap, etc. something from the kids to open - unless it's something like a phone, tablet, laptop or similarly priced item because otherwise it's not. worth. my. time.

3 hours ago, saraha said:

I think you all are right. I want to be happy to finally be getting a crack at getting things my way, but I don't feel happy. And when he gets home. he will NOT understand why I am not excited that he "gets it" and I wish I had the words to explain it to him.

are you religious?  (or more  - is he religious?)'

 John 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

[BusyMom5]

A few things from your posts have stuck out to me- you spend part of one day with your side, the majority of 4 days with his side, and your time with just your own kids is also very limited.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that this isn't just about the stress of gift giving, meal prep, ect. And has as much to do with how much of the holiday is dedicated to DHs traditions vs yours vs making traditions with your own children.  

Before we had kids I decided that Christmas morning was going to be spent at our home, playing with our kids.  Family is welcome- plenty of food- but my kids will spend Christmas day playing with their toys.  I also have worked hard to make traditions like cookie decorating with cousins, gift swap between my own kids, craft projects, decorating the tree together, and even watching a few Christmas movies together.   You never mentioned anything about your own traditions with your kids, and I wonder if maybe his family traditions are overshadowing the memories you want to make with your own kids.  Or maybe I'm projecting 😉

I do think it's great that your husband is finally getting a small taste of what you have shouldered for so many years.  I think most women have at least one holiday season freak out 😉

[*****]

4 hours ago, saraha said:

 

So, Christmas and ALL it's trappings has been my sole responsibility for my entire married life, 20 years. I married into a family that had some traditions, and expected a lot in the gift department. For the last 5 years I have been asking (some years begging) for a change in the way we do Christmas. I initially started out asking to just go away with our nuclear family and skip Christmas. At the time, I was burnt the heck out, and was grappling with depression and 6 kids under 15. This year, I started my yearly ask, he was open to "listening" before he shot me down (turns out he takes my hatred for Christmas very personally), then shot me down.

  20 years is quite a long time to have to do this, and begging too. I know I would have been burnt out and resentful, and rightly so.  You never did get to make Christmas traditions for your immediate family the way you would have liked, and your husband didn't care.  That is not right. You made do by going to see your mother on Christmas Eve, but you took what you could get.  Your husband didn't help make it work for all of you in a loving way. (And then there is the clean up, maybe writing thank-you's and finding a place for all those gifts your kids received.  I am pretty sure I know who ended up doing all of that...and it doesn't add to the joy of wanting to do it all over again the next year. BTDT)

 He did not take responsibility in caring for your needs when you were depressed or afterwards to make sure you didn't slip back into it. This was the worst part, and you have a right to be angry.  One who is depressed does not always think clearly. 

2 hours ago, saraha said:

I am also not feeling like you have communicated your feelings and thoughts all that well through the years.  I mean it seems like you discussed burn out and stress but it sounds like your only solution was to run away from it all by taking a vacation and skipping Christmas.  

It doesn’t seem like you ever asked for anything besides that.  

The above would be an example of how someone who has been depressed would typically act. You were in a fog!  If you didn't communicate thoughts and feelings well, do not blame yourself!  Being depressed, ruminating and doing the 'woulda, shoulda, coulda' thing makes communicating your thoughts very difficult!

To me, that means you may be feeling guilty for having those feelings over the years, when you should not have been feeling guilty.  By some of your responses above to some of the hive who agree with him, you are going pretty easy on him, IMO.  He is being imposed upon at this moment when he is purchasing the presents, but it should be a wake-up call to everything else that you have to do still.  I hope he is asking you if there is anything else you need help with...that would tell you where his heart is! 

I am not trying to start a debate here with the hive, just stating another side to why you are crying.  So many years of taking this on...you should let it out!  I am really curious as to what will happen next year, or will he 'forget' the hard part and just let it all fall back on you...for your sake, I hope you will be able to plan a trip for next year, soon. Please keep us posted!  Hugs....

 

 

[gardenmom5]

I just want to add something about "Christmas family vacation".

we grew up *always* going to my grandmother's on Christmas eve.  dh did it once, and said "never again".  Took awhile, but we came up with our own traditions.

my sister was grandmama's favorite - but my sister took matters into her own hands (a true act of rebellion), and she and her dh started going away for Christmas when their oldest was very small.  It started out as a way to avoid family drama and start their own tradition  - to becoming a true tradition that they miss since their girls have left home and married.   

at least in dh's case (with thanksgiving) - I believe he was trying to hold onto memories of what family life was like prior to his father's death.  that's why he was so insistent on spending the day with his family.  I did shut down spending the rest of Thanksgiving weekend with his family . . . . (his sister tried to impose things for the rest of the weekend.)

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I have read this entire thread, and one word has kept popping into my head: MAGIC

It seems, from your description, that your dh loves the magic of Christmas, and that he has remained childlike in his desire for it to just appear around him, recreated every year, just as it was when he was a little boy. 

I am surmising that your MIL made wonderful Christmas magic happen for your dh. She did everything, and never included him in the planning, cleaning, decorating, shopping. While he may have made some cookies, wrapped a few presents, and helped trim the tree, everything else just *appeared*, as if by magic.  He never saw what she put into it, even as he got old enough that he should have been involved in making it all happen. He just loved it as a little boy, and has never let go of that little boy feeling of Christmas. Basically, even though he may be an adult in every other way, he never grew up in his view of Christmas. He didn't want to see what went into creating that magic, and it never occurred to him that he should be part of making it happen. This shopping adventure has been a turning point for him. He's had the glitter and lights pulled back, as a curtain on a stage, and has gotten a glimpse behind the scenes. He may, on his own, come to realize that his expectations have been unreasonable. Perhaps he'll even decide it's time to create a different Christmas play, one that is centered on your nuclear family.

[Carol in Cal.]

I’ve been thinking of Magic, too, but in a different way.

I grew up going to my grandparents’ house every Christmas.  It was a huge, glorious gathering, involving family that was tangential, extended, direct, and church friends.  And SOs as well.  I would not want that to not exist for someone who is accustomed to it.  Rather, I would want it to go on and on; and I’d be willing to host it and work hard on it myself, but I would hope that at least the immediate and slightly extended family would be committed to it, because it is a rare and special thing.  These, and weddings, and funerals, are when the longstanding family stories get passed on, and when children get to know their roots and their cousins, and when adults can do the ‘many hands make light work’ thing.  

Failing to grow into being an adult is remedy-able.  The Magic is not easily replaced.

In our family now, Big Family Christmas is not as good as when I was a kid, but I am still very committed to it.  One thing I did when DD was young was create an Epiphany presents tradition in our nuclear family so that we could have our own celebration AND the large one also.  Since we were homeschooling, this worked out well—it might not have been so successful if everyone was back in school by then.  Thinking out side of the box like that was nice.

[Laura Corin]

5 hours ago, StellaM said:

Personally, I think it is not OK to lump a burned out, depressed loved one who is trying her best to communicate her needs with responsibility for ensuring your Christmas values are carried out, but that's just me.

Any of those years where he refused to even consider the OP's depression, burn out and need to be relieved of this burden, he could have taken it on himself, out of love and respect for his wife, and been responsible for creating the Christmas that was important to him and his family of origin. He chose not to do that, and continued to insist that OP carried the burden. That is not loving behaviour. Christmas traditions are irrelevant and meaningless in comparison to the health of one's marriage.

 

Not in any sense defending him, but I suspect that in his mind, a large part of the magic of this kind of Christmas is that it 'just happens'. If he has to do it, it's not magic any more. He is expecting the childhood experience, when mum did it all and it was golden.

[Shoeless]

19 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I can't relate!

I may have thought this way at 5, but by the time I was 15, I was well aware many of these festivities run on female labour! No magic involved.

It's sort of incredible that a grown man with childen of his own couldn't have made this mental leap before, idk, leaving home.

 

Oh, I'm sure he's made the mental leap.  He knows how all this works, but feels entitled to a Very Nice Christmas, so it doesn't matter if his wife is sobbing over the work load.  Did anyone else catch the bit where OP has to go over to the in-laws house to help clean before all these festivities, and also that she has to do the in-laws shopping, because MIL isn't up to the task anymore?!  This isn't OP feeling pouty because she doesn't want to make extra pies to share. She's taken on the holiday labor of *two* households!  And for a multi-day holiday celebration! That's nuts!  

Where's OP's Christmas Magic? How come everyone else gets Christmas Magic but her?! 

Edited to add: It's not just men that pull this crap, although it seems like men do this more often.  I have a sister that is just as guilty as my dad with her expectations of a Very Nice Christmas where she does zero work, receives gifts, eats great food, and cleans nothing.  She and dad have fought very hard to keep "The Magic of Christmas" alive, at the expense of my other sister. 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by MissLemon

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Suzanne in ABQ said:

I have read this entire thread, and one word has kept popping into my head: MAGIC

It seems, from your description, that your dh loves the magic of Christmas, and that he has remained childlike in his desire for it to just appear around him, recreated every year, just as it was when he was a little boy. 

I am surmising that your MIL made wonderful Christmas magic happen for your dh. She did everything, and never included him in the planning, cleaning, decorating, shopping. While he may have made some cookies, wrapped a few presents, and helped trim the tree, everything else just *appeared*, as if by magic.  He never saw what she put into it, even as he got old enough that he should have been involved in making it all happen. He just loved it as a little boy, and has never let go of that little boy feeling of Christmas. Basically, even though he may be an adult in every other way, he never grew up in his view of Christmas. He didn't want to see what went into creating that magic, and it never occurred to him that he should be part of making it happen. This shopping adventure has been a turning point for him. He's had the glitter and lights pulled back, as a curtain on a stage, and has gotten a glimpse behind the scenes. He may, on his own, come to realize that his expectations have been unreasonable. Perhaps he'll even decide it's time to create a different Christmas play, one that is centered on your nuclear family.

just wat to add.  it can also be tangentially related to the anxiety of being an adult, and so many things dependent upon your choices.  returning to that safety of childhood magic and wonderful memories can be an escape.

[gardenmom5]

oh - you could also order from amazon and have them "gift wrap" it.  it's really just a colorful bag, but still - you're only ordering. (you could even have it delivered to your mils house.)  if anyone complains about the additional cost to "wrap it", tell them they're free to wrap it themselves - but you don't have time.  (no need to justify what you are spending your time doing.)

Edited December 19, 2019 by gardenmom5

[El...]

OP,  I hear you.  I've been lucky in that when I've decided to change our family's holiday pattern so I don't get as exhausted,  DH has listened. I will admit to having been loud about it from time to time.  🙂

I wish I could make more deliberate changes,  but I usually have to get upset before I realize there's a problem.  I find myself worn out and angry, and then I make the changes that should have happened before.  Until I'm exhausted,  I just try harder. Maybe I'll grow into a better process.

[SamanthaCarter]

5 hours ago, MissLemon said:

....  Did anyone else catch the bit where OP has to go over to the in-laws house to help clean before all these festivities, and also that she has to do the in-laws shopping, because MIL isn't up to the task anymore?!  This isn't OP feeling pouty because she doesn't want to make extra pies to share. She's taken on the holiday labor of *two* households!  And for a multi-day holiday celebration! That's nuts!  

At least in my experience, today’s grandparents have more income than moms have time. Especially a homeschooling mom of six. The housecleaning needs to be hired out. 

As for shopping, does grandma have a computer? Can dh show her how to use Amazon? even if she can’t go physically shopping, it seems like she would get more joy from gift giving having perused Amazon, bought something to be wrapped and shipped to her, and given it to her grandchildren. 🤔

If these are not helpful thoughts, ignore. I realize this thread is more about navigating hurt feelings and relationships, less about the hive fixing Christmas for you.

Edited December 19, 2019 by SamanthaCarter

[DawnM]

Sometimes men are just dense.  If it makes you feel any better, when we had young kids, my husband took the kids to see his mom.  I had been complaining for years that she favored his sisters kids over ours, that my time at her house was stressful because I had to stay inside with her and the kids (like during nap time) while he went outside and had fun, went wherever with siblings, etc.....

When he had to take the kids alone, he FINALLY got it!  His mother would watch the sisters kids for days on end, but when left with our kids for 2 hours, texted him to come home and get them because she didn't have time for them, etc......

Sometimes they just don't get it unless they have to experience it.

Hugs.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

OP, I have nothing but sympathy for you.  

[saraha]

35 minutes ago, DawnM said:

Sometimes men are just dense.  If it makes you feel any better, when we had young kids, my husband took the kids to see his mom.  I had been complaining for years that she favored his sisters kids over ours, that my time at her house was stressful because I had to stay inside with her and the kids (like during nap time) while he went outside and had fun, went wherever with siblings, etc.....

When he had to take the kids alone, he FINALLY got it!  His mother would watch the sisters kids for days on end, but when left with our kids for 2 hours, texted him to come home and get them because she didn't have time for them, etc......

Sometimes they just don't get it unless they have to experience it.

Hugs.

So this relates back to being unsure about my feelings. If he really cant help it, then it is unfair of me to be angry and hurt, I am not angry and hurt when one of my kids doesn't "get"  something, I just educate and go on. But part of me says that when I got married, I did not sign on to also be his mom. I don't need him to be my dad (my handyman maybe) so it feels unfair to have to manipulate situations to help him understand. After reading this thread, I am seeing some correlations between some other behaviors that involve "magical thinking". Some how it was easier to think that it wasn't that he didn't listen/ understand, it was that he did listen/understand and we didn't agree. I don't know.

And the weird part of all of this, is that I LOVE his parents. I started taking the kids over to clean her house once a week because she was getting to where she can't do a lot of it and acts of service is my love language. She is very appreciative and even gives the kids pocket money for helping. For years, I would just get up and wash all the dishes because my dh is not alone in his idea that the kitchen magically cleans itself after holiday dinners because I didn't want his mom to have to do it herself after everyone left at midnight. Other than her expectations of everyone at Christmas she is such a super lady. My sil does help with dishes now since my mil mentioned in front of everyone a couple of years ago how much she appreciates me doing up all the dishes every dinner 😉 

But all of this aside, my problem right  now in the immediate is I just want to strangle this man and when we talk about it, whenever that will be, he is going to think I am all happy happy joy joy that he has had an epiphany and I am so not there. And I am ashamed of myself for not being there, you know, I am starting to get what I want. I can even hear him saying that, "Why are you unhappy now?!? Isn't this what you wanted?" So yeah. Feelings.

[saraha]

This thread has really been enlightening, thank you boardie family!

[caedmyn]

I think it’s fine to tell him that you feel frustrated that you’ve been trying to communicate for years how much you disliked all the work that his family’s Christmas involved, and he’s only starting to understand it now that he has to do part of the work.  Whatever his reasons for not understanding, he is an adult and he is CAPABLE of understanding and choosing not to.  You should not feel at all guilty for asking your (adult) husband to consider your needs also, no matter how magical of a Christmas he desires.  (Also, if this is a recurring issue with other things throughout your marriage, you may want to look up over-functioning.  It sounds like either your H is pretty good at guilt-tripping you, or you naturally tend to be an over-functioning and feel guilty when you finally decide you’ve had enough and start saying no, or both.)

It sounds like you’ve done plenty of talking/trying to convince over the years, and the only thing that actually works is setting boundaries.  So next Christmas, instead of initiating “the Christmas talk” yet again, and most likely ending up frustrated again because he still doesn't really get it for the most part, decide what you are willing to do, and what you’re not willing to do, and just tell him that.  He can do the rest or it can go undone.  Now if HE initiated “the talk” next year, it might be worth having, but go into it with low expectations and be prepared to state those boundaries.

[DawnM]

55 minutes ago, saraha said:

So this relates back to being unsure about my feelings. If he really cant help it, then it is unfair of me to be angry and hurt, I am not angry and hurt when one of my kids doesn't "get"  something, I just educate and go on. But part of me says that when I got married, I did not sign on to also be his mom. I don't need him to be my dad (my handyman maybe) so it feels unfair to have to manipulate situations to help him understand. After reading this thread, I am seeing some correlations between some other behaviors that involve "magical thinking". Some how it was easier to think that it wasn't that he didn't listen/ understand, it was that he did listen/understand and we didn't agree. I don't know.

And the weird part of all of this, is that I LOVE his parents. I started taking the kids over to clean her house once a week because she was getting to where she can't do a lot of it and acts of service is my love language. She is very appreciative and even gives the kids pocket money for helping. For years, I would just get up and wash all the dishes because my dh is not alone in his idea that the kitchen magically cleans itself after holiday dinners because I didn't want his mom to have to do it herself after everyone left at midnight. Other than her expectations of everyone at Christmas she is such a super lady. My sil does help with dishes now since my mil mentioned in front of everyone a couple of years ago how much she appreciates me doing up all the dishes every dinner 😉 

But all of this aside, my problem right  now in the immediate is I just want to strangle this man and when we talk about it, whenever that will be, he is going to think I am all happy happy joy joy that he has had an epiphany and I am so not there. And I am ashamed of myself for not being there, you know, I am starting to get what I want. I can even hear him saying that, "Why are you unhappy now?!? Isn't this what you wanted?" So yeah. Feelings.

 

But he is an adult, and he should listen.  Not showing any empathy or understanding is really not mature, and, unless he has autism, he should be listening.  That was my frustration with my husband.  AND, the sheer dismissal of your feelings is not ok.  

So, there may be something in the middle.....you get to the point you don't want to strangle him and he gets too the point where he hears and listens for understanding.

[matrips]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

So this relates back to being unsure about my feelings. If he really cant help it, then it is unfair of me to be angry and hurt, I

Your feelings are your feelings.  They’re not right or wrong.  They’ve been 20 years in the making and won’t go away in a day.  I would think HE would be the one who is so apologetic and sorry right now and willing to listen and understand and get why you are angry and frustrated.  He didn’t listen to you for yearsnornoffer to help out.  He wants to change because it was too much for him, not because it was too much for you.  Explain it.  YOU shouldn’t be the one worrying if your feelings are fair to him.  He should be tripping over himself with apologies for taking you for granted and not sharing Christmas as a family.