Help Me Brainstorm Strategies to Help My Teen Girl Deal with Unwanted Male Attention

[Chelli]

Please bear with me as I share my heart and my daughter's heart. So the "problem" is that my oldest daughter is really beautiful (5'9", blonde, hour glass figure), as in people think she's a model. While that probably makes you think, "Oh, how sad. Poor her." with a heavy dose of sarcasm (trust me, before having a child that looks like her, I would have felt the same), I'm afraid it's going to cause her some problems. It already is to a point. She cannot go out anywhere without being cat-called, hit on, asked for her number, ogled etc. Sometimes it's harmless flirting, but most of the time it puts her in uncomfortable situations. 

Just last night while wearing no makeup, sweats, a T-shirt, and glasses, she was leaving a local high school, where she's meeting with the choir teacher to prepare for an upcoming vocal performance, as the band was coming in off the practice field for the evening. She got to my car, jumped in shaking, and said, "Just drive." I find out that in her short twenty foot walk from the choir room to the outside door, she was asked for her number, cat-called, etc. She was afraid they wouldn't let her leave, but no one blocked the door. On the way home she said that when she can drive, maybe she should have a bad wreck so she'd have a scar on her face and people would leave her alone. She played it off like she was joking, and I know she's not to the point where she'd self harm, but I do worry that she's going to become a recluse or purposefully hide her figure because the barrage is unrelenting. I've explained to her that all women deal with this stuff to some degree, so it's not necessarily the way she looks causing this. However, I've never admitted this to her, she does get over and above the norm as far as this stuff goes. Even her friends have noticed and commented about it.

We are definitely getting her some self-defense courses in case she finds herself in a physically threatening situation beyond the verbal stuff. So if you've read all of this, my question is how do I support her against the verbal stuff beyond encouraging her to try and ignore it? It's just never-ending and my poor, almost 15 year old is beginning to show signs of collapse (she's been getting comments since see was 12 when I had to explain what a certain sexual act was because a grown man yelled it at her). 

[Barb_]

My oldest has taught my other ones to develop a “don’t fu*k with me” face. Look unapproachable. Walk purposefully, chin up, brows furrowed like you have places to go and will punch the first person who says something to you. Don’t ignore. Make eye contact and scowl. Have some one liners all ready to be deployed. Teach her to take back her power. 

I’m sorry, it really sucks.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Barb_

[SKL]

1) Pepper spray?

2) Find some ideas for quick comebacks.  Maybe ask a trusted uncle or similar which ones would be effective.

3) Is it better if she is walking with a friend or other person?

4) What about a big German Shepherd or Doberman Pinscher??

[Angie in VA]

16 hours ago, Barb_ said:

My oldest has taught my other ones to develop a “don’t fu*k with me” face. Look unapproachable. Walk purposefully, chin up, brows furrowed like you have places to go and will punch the first person who says something to you. Don’t ignore. Make eye contact and scowl. Have some one liners all ready to be deployed. Teach her to take back her power. 

I’m sorry, it really sucks.

 

In addition to the suggestion above, I assume she's already using the universal "don't talk to me" signal of wearing headphones? Whether she's listening to anything through them or not?

I think it was our Katy who once posted a YT video about a girl who just looked at men like they were crazy (or was it like she was crazy?) to get them to leave her alone. I think there's some language in it, but was pretty funny. 

I'l look for that, but I doubt I'll find it. 

Found it. Remember, there is language in this.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Angie in VA

[Melissa in Australia]

My DD does an icy stare. I have seen a boy literally back away from her with a confused expression on his face. I don't think he had ever come across something like it before.

[Barb_]

Just thought of an example. One of my girls was 15 and was at the gym minding her business. Some college guy kept staring. Circling her. Making her uncomfortable. He finally walked over and said, “hey babe, I noticed you’re alone, do you want to go somewhere after?” She 5-1 and about 100lbs. She looks small and vulnerable. She gave him an icy eye-contact stare with gritted back teeth—long enough to be uncomfortable and said, “I’m 15.” And he said, “ohhh I’m 23...so can I have your number?” And she grabbed her stuff and said, “do you have not idea what “I’m 15” could mean in court? No, you can’t have my number. That’s creepy.” And walked out. I told her she should have complained at the front desk at the Y, but other than that I was happy with how she handled it.  

[Barb_]

2 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

My DD does an icy stare. I have seen a boy literally back away from her with a confused expression on his face. I don't think he had ever come across something like it before.

Exact this. Women are socialized to avoid rudeness and a certain type of men will use it to their advantage 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

1) Pepper spray?

2) Find some ideas for quick comebacks.  Maybe ask a trusted uncle or similar which ones would be effective.

3) Is it better if she is walking with a friend or other person?

4) What about a big German Shepherd or Doberman Pinscher??

 

I think you must have missed that she was leaving class and still literally in the building, on school grounds. Pepper spray and a dog are probably not options. (I wouldn't mind if she could have both, even in school, in the current climate for women, but I don't make the rules.)

[kitten18]

7 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

 

I think you must have missed that she was leaving class and still literally in the building, on school grounds. Pepper spray and a dog are probably not options. (I wouldn't mind if she could have both, even in school, in the current climate for women, but I don't make the rules.)

It sounded like Chelli was asking for advice for multiple situations. 

[Kalmia]

My daughter, then 12, was walking with her friends and got cat called by a grown man. She pointed in his direction and yelled "PEDOPHILE!" at the top of her lungs. He disappeared quickly. 

[J-rap]

That stuff is so maddening.  I'm sorry.  My dds have found that when they walk confidently and briskly with long strides and a look that says they will take no bs, they have fewer problems.  (It doesn't diminish it completely, of course, but it helps.)  My dds do have a ton of confidence, and I think that kind of attitude shows through and turns some people off.  

I know another trick they do sometimes is take out their cell phone and pretend they're talking on it.

Edited October 4, 2018 by J-rap

[LMD]

I'm sorry Chelli. I hate this for your daughter. For our daughters. My daughter turning 12 - and the subsequent behaviour of old men in the supermarket! - is what radicalized me.

I really don't have any advice, because none exists. Women and girls are treated like public property. There is no way to win, if she does the icy stare/witty comeback some guys will back off, some will decide to teach an uppity girl a lesson. If she does the polite route some guys will push the boundaries.

What I would do it reiterate to her that it is normal and right to feel vulnerable and pissed off when you're treated like prey just for daring to exist in public. 

I would reiterate that she's learning clear messages about what some boys are like and learning to spot and avoid them is, unfortunately, a useful skill. Help her to feel empowered by strategizing exit-to-safety scenarios.

Lastly, I would plug her in to feminism. Feminist history & theory. Reading biographies of the suffragettes etc. She isn't alone. Her foremothers and current sisters stand with her and understand that it's not fair, it just sucks.

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, LMD said:

I'm sorry Chelli. I hate this for your daughter. For our daughters. My daughter turning 12 - and the subsequent behaviour of old men in the supermarket! - is what radicalized me.

I really don't have any advice, because none exists. Women and girls are treated like public property. There is no way to win, if she does the icy stare/witty comeback some guys will back off, some will decide to teach an uppity girl a lesson. If she does the polite route some guys will push the boundaries.

What I would do it reiterate to her that it is normal and right to feel vulnerable and pissed off when you're treated like prey just for daring to exist in public. 

I would reiterate that she's learning clear messages about what some boys are like and learning to spot and avoid them is, unfortunately, a useful skill. Help her to feel empowered by strategizing exit-to-safety scenarios.

 

In addition to this, one of the most meaningful things I did for my younger brother, inadvertently, was allowing him to see how the unwanted attention affected me. Not hiding my discomfort made him a much better young man when dealing with girls too. In retrospect, it would have been even better to discuss it as a family, out in the open. I was an early developer who received entirely too much unwanted attention and no one ever told me that I didn't have to shrink into myself and just take it. If she's aware of specific people or groups who routinely engage in this behavior at school, they should be identified to school personnel and told to knock it off. She's just as entitled to a safe and non-hostile learning environment as they are.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Sneezyone

[Liz CA]

Assertiveness - along the lines what Barb mentioned. It projects an image that she is not an easy target. Someone who wants to do more than just be an a$$, may look for easier "prey."

I would explain that cat calling can easily be ignored. Looks can be ignored. But there are some idiots or worse who think it's fun to try to intimidate - those are the ones to deal with swiftly. Like holding up your cell and saying: "I saw you coming and I have my Dad / brother/ whoever on the phone. If you don't back up now they will call 911. " This evidently once worked for a young lady who was on the evening shift at a place I worked. She said the guy backed up real fast even though she had nobody listening on her phone.

Self defense courses or simple escape moves may be a good idea. There are simple things the local PD suggests that bear repeating:

• Have your car key ready and sticking out between forefinger and middle finger. An upward thrust under the rib cage with that key immobilizes someone hopefully long enough to run away.
• Spread out forefinger and middle finger - this is the common distance between most people's eyes. Stabbing someone in the eye with your fingers may come as a surprise.
• If someone asks to surrender your purse, throw it away from you (local PD tip). I am thinking this may only work if they person is really after your purse and nothing else.
• When someone approaches in a threatening manner, speak very loudly and clearly. This projects confidence and shows she is no easy target.
• Do anything you can to never get forced into a vehicle. 

I would also tell her to trust her instincts. We tend to negate that weird feeling sometimes when we should heed the warning signs.

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Liz CA

[Ali in OR]

For the specific circumstance you mentioned, at our high school, our principal would want to know that band students (or any students) are behaving in a wildly inappropriate manner. There would be some education opportunities coming their way. Our female band director certainly wouldn't tolerate it. When it's happening in a school setting, I would definitely let school administrators know what's going on. (But I'm loving hearing about spunky girls calling attention to creepy pedophile behavior!)

[J-rap]

23 minutes ago, LMD said:

I'm sorry Chelli. I hate this for your daughter. For our daughters. My daughter turning 12 - and the subsequent behaviour of old men in the supermarket! - is what radicalized me.

I really don't have any advice, because none exists. Women and girls are treated like public property. There is no way to win, if she does the icy stare/witty comeback some guys will back off, some will decide to teach an uppity girl a lesson. If she does the polite route some guys will push the boundaries.

What I would do it reiterate to her that it is normal and right to feel vulnerable and pissed off when you're treated like prey just for daring to exist in public. 

I would reiterate that she's learning clear messages about what some boys are like and learning to spot and avoid them is, unfortunately, a useful skill. Help her to feel empowered by strategizing exit-to-safety scenarios.

Lastly, I would plug her in to feminism. Feminist history & theory. Reading biographies of the suffragettes etc. She isn't alone. Her foremothers and current sisters stand with her and understand that it's not fair, it just sucks.

Yes, this.

[Chelli]

You guys are making me feel better about how I've handled things so far. We talk about every encounter she has: what she could do better, what she did well, etc. I really think it's just the overwhelming amount of it. No matter where we are or who she is with (except for her dad) she has someone say something to her every time we leave the house. Every. Stinkin. Time. She's tried headphones and glaring and being rude. It works with that guy, usually, but then comes round two later that day. She never gets a break, ya know? I don't know if guys are more brazen or what, but I don't remember it being this bad when I was growing up. I feel really bad for her. It's almost like I can see her weighing everything in her mind: is it worth leaving home and knowing I'll have to deal with someone or is it better just to stay in and not? I hate that she is put in this position. 

She's definitely assertive and has no problem calling guys out. My favorite was the time she was standing in front of a vending machine trying to decide what she wanted. She saw a guy standing behind her reflected in a window. As she was looking at his reflection, his hand started moving forward toward her butt like he was going to grab it or touch it. Without even turning around, she said, "So help me, if you lay one finger on my @ss, I'll knock you flat on yours." He was about four inches shorter than her and she said that he quickly put his arm down by his side, she grabbed her snack, and walked away without looking back.

Just last week at the library's computer lab she had this encounter:
Creeper (sitting next to my dd in the computer lab): I see you are playing Roblox.
Dd (wearing headphones and trying to ignore him): Yep.
Creeper: My name is Troy.
Dd: Nice to meet you.
Creeper: I didn't catch your name.
Dd: I didn't throw it.
Creeper: You're a feisty one.
Dd (ignoring him)
Creeper: Tell me something to watch on YouTube.
Dd: I don't care.
Creeper: It can be girly, crazy, or dirty.
At this point Dd leaves and comes to find me.

I guess I wanted something I could tell her other than, "Encounters like this are just what we have to endure as women, and you especially so." It seems like such a bleak outlook on the situation. I LOVE the idea about having her read up on feminist pioneers. She would love that.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Buddy up if she can. 

That’s the only advice I have that is in addition to what has been mentioned. 

[gardenmom5]

there's been some good advice offered.

1dd perfected the "If you can hold an intelligent conversation I'll talk to you (but you can't)" face/attitude.  she intimidated a lot of guys.

 

[gardenmom5]

I did read one girl give advice of how she makes absolutely crazy faces back at these guys- and freezing her face in them.  NOT MOVING A MUSCLE.   just staring back, no response.  her experience is after trying to get reactions/responses from her - they end up slithering off into the bushes.

[Liz CA]

1 hour ago, Chelli said:

 

Just last week at the library's computer lab she had this encounter:
Creeper (sitting next to my dd in the computer lab): I see you are playing Roblox.
Dd (wearing headphones and trying to ignore him): Yep.
Creeper: My name is Troy.
Dd: Nice to meet you.
Creeper: I didn't catch your name.
Dd: I didn't throw it.
Creeper: You're a feisty one.
Dd (ignoring him)
Creeper: Tell me something to watch on YouTube.
Dd: I don't care.
Creeper: It can be girly, crazy, or dirty.
At this point Dd leaves and comes to find me.

I guess I wanted something I could tell her other than, "Encounters like this are just what we have to endure as women, and you especially so." It seems like such a bleak outlook on the situation. I LOVE the idea about having her read up on feminist pioneers. She would love that.

 

I am not sure I would phrase it as "we poor women have to endure this..." Help her figure out what she is comfortable with and at what point she needs to make clear whatever someone is doing needs to stop. Cat calling, whistling etc can be ignored. But for encounters described above, perhaps you can teach her some phrases like: "I see you don't understand me. Shall we call the librarian over so she can clarify things for you?" In other situations, it can be the police, the school principle, the FBI (they like to check out people's computers), etc. Also, if this person was still in the library when she came to find you and tell you I think I may have approached him directly. I almost typed out what I may have whispered into his ear but I don't think I should - public board, rules of internet etiquette and all that. 

[moonflower]

12 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

 

I am not sure I would phrase it as "we poor women have to endure this..." Help her figure out what she is comfortable with and at what point she needs to make clear whatever someone is doing needs to stop. Cat calling, whistling etc can be ignored. But for encounters described above, perhaps you can teach her some phrases like: "I see you don't understand me. Shall we call the librarian over so she can clarify things for you?" In other situations, it can be the police, the school principle, the FBI (they like to check out people's computers), etc. Also, if this person was still in the library when she came to find you and tell you I think I may have approached him directly. I almost typed out what I may have whispered into his ear but I don't think I should - public board, rules of internet etiquette and all that. 

 

I'm as far from a feminist as you can get, but saying that "cat calling, whistling, etc. can be ignored" is pretty much the definition of "we poor women have to endure this."

[LMD]

I said the feminism thing not to mean that we can all be perpetual victims together. Feminist theory can give her the insight to understand her world, the language to describe her experiences and generations of fearsome women who didn't just endure their lives to look up to.

That computer lab guy sounds like a dangerous creep. Red flag parade.

[fairfarmhand]

Where do you live? This is horrible! I’ve never seen such disgusting rudeness where I am and I know dozens of young men who would take up for a girl being abused like you described. This is something that In our area we teach our sons. 

[SamanthaCarter]

8 hours ago, Chelli said:

You guys are making me feel better about how I've handled things so far. We talk about every encounter she has: what she could do better, what she did well, etc. I really think it's just the overwhelming amount of it. No matter where we are or who she is with (except for her dad) she has someone say something to her every time we leave the house. Every. Stinkin. Time. She's tried headphones and glaring and being rude. It works with that guy, usually, but then comes round two later that day. She never gets a break, ya know? I don't know if guys are more brazen or what, but I don't remember it being this bad when I was growing up. I feel really bad for her. It's almost like I can see her weighing everything in her mind: is it worth leaving home and knowing I'll have to deal with someone or is it better just to stay in and not? I hate that she is put in this position. 

She's definitely assertive and has no problem calling guys out. My favorite was the time she was standing in front of a vending machine trying to decide what she wanted. She saw a guy standing behind her reflected in a window. As she was looking at his reflection, his hand started moving forward toward her butt like he was going to grab it or touch it. Without even turning around, she said, "So help me, if you lay one finger on my @ss, I'll knock you flat on yours." He was about four inches shorter than her and she said that he quickly put his arm down by his side, she grabbed her snack, and walked away without looking back.

Just last week at the library's computer lab she had this encounter:
Creeper (sitting next to my dd in the computer lab): I see you are playing Roblox.
Dd (wearing headphones and trying to ignore him): Yep.
Creeper: My name is Troy.
Dd: Nice to meet you.
Creeper: I didn't catch your name.
Dd: I didn't throw it.
Creeper: You're a feisty one.
Dd (ignoring him)
Creeper: Tell me something to watch on YouTube.
Dd: I don't care.
Creeper: It can be girly, crazy, or dirty.
At this point Dd leaves and comes to find me.

I guess I wanted something I could tell her other than, "Encounters like this are just what we have to endure as women, and you especially so." It seems like such a bleak outlook on the situation. I LOVE the idea about having her read up on feminist pioneers. She would love that.

This should have been reported to the library. By name, since he so helpfully gave it. 

And yes, I think boys are more brazen than when we were kids, but it probably depends on where you live. 

Edited October 4, 2018 by SamanthaCarter

[PrincessMommy]

2 hours ago, --- said:

In the above, I think she gave this perv WAY too much time and attention.  I would tell her to get up and move beginning with his first statement ("I see you are playing Roblox.")  Don't even let on she heard him, don't look at him, nothing.  Because it looks to me like all she ended up doing was getting sucked into his demand for her attention in the above.  Even "I don't care" is response enough to keep him going.  Plus, she doesn't need to hear crap like "It can be girly, crazy, or dirty."  

Maybe think of it as feeding the bears.  We had bears where we used to live.  If a bear found one, single piece of food, they would be returning to that spot for months, hoping to find more.  The only way to discourage them was to make sure they never found a single piece of food at that spot ever again.  Not even the smell of food.  And, even then, it would take a few tries of never finding that food for them to finally give up.  So the goal for your dd is never to give them that 'food' in the first place.  Don't acknowledge their existence, don't take the time to come back with retorts, etc.  Obviously, get help if needed (librarian, etc.).  Because every time they get a response out of her - even if it's negative - they'll keep on.  Starve the bear.

One of the saddest parts of all this is that she almost has to go around with a kind of angry aura in public just to keep the pervs at bay.  That must be exhausting for her.  It might be interesting to talk to other striking women just to see how some of them handle these things.  

I agree.  Esp with what is bolded.  One of my daughter's is just too friendly and she was always feeding the bears in college.  I had to tell her she needs tone down the sweet friendliness.  It makes me sad that we have to teach our daughters to be the angry, reclusive, cat lady in order to live in peace.   

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, --- said:

In the above, I think she gave this perv WAY too much time and attention.  I would tell her to get up and move beginning with his first statement ("I see you are playing Roblox.")  Don't even let on she heard him, don't look at him, nothing.  Because it looks to me like all she ended up doing was getting sucked into his demand for her attention in the above.  Even "I don't care" is response enough to keep him going.  Plus, she doesn't need to hear crap like "It can be girly, crazy, or dirty."  

Maybe think of it as feeding the bears.  We had bears where we used to live.  If a bear found one, single piece of food, they would be returning to that spot for months, hoping to find more.  The only way to discourage them was to make sure they never found a single piece of food at that spot ever again.  Not even the smell of food.  And, even then, it would take a few tries of never finding that food for them to finally give up.  So the goal for your dd is never to give them that 'food' in the first place.  Don't acknowledge their existence, don't take the time to come back with retorts, etc.  Obviously, get help if needed (librarian, etc.).  Because every time they get a response out of her - even if it's negative - they'll keep on.  Starve the bear.

One of the saddest parts of all this is that she almost has to go around with a kind of angry aura in public just to keep the pervs at bay.  That must be exhausting for her.  It might be interesting to talk to other striking women just to see how some of them handle these things.  

 

I think bold, brutish, masculinity is much more celebrated and accepted than in the past. It’s tough enough for grown women to take but young women and girls can be even less well-equipped to push back. I recommend this book. I heard about it here and found it short, sweet, and helpful.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0525434801?psc=1&ref=yo_pop_mb_pd_title

[Ausmumof3]

9 hours ago, Chelli said:

You guys are making me feel better about how I've handled things so far. We talk about every encounter she has: what she could do better, what she did well, etc. I really think it's just the overwhelming amount of it. No matter where we are or who she is with (except for her dad) she has someone say something to her every time we leave the house. Every. Stinkin. Time. She's tried headphones and glaring and being rude. It works with that guy, usually, but then comes round two later that day. She never gets a break, ya know? I don't know if guys are more brazen or what, but I don't remember it being this bad when I was growing up. I feel really bad for her. It's almost like I can see her weighing everything in her mind: is it worth leaving home and knowing I'll have to deal with someone or is it better just to stay in and not? I hate that she is put in this position. 

She's definitely assertive and has no problem calling guys out. My favorite was the time she was standing in front of a vending machine trying to decide what she wanted. She saw a guy standing behind her reflected in a window. As she was looking at his reflection, his hand started moving forward toward her butt like he was going to grab it or touch it. Without even turning around, she said, "So help me, if you lay one finger on my @ss, I'll knock you flat on yours." He was about four inches shorter than her and she said that he quickly put his arm down by his side, she grabbed her snack, and walked away without looking back.

Just last week at the library's computer lab she had this encounter:
Creeper (sitting next to my dd in the computer lab): I see you are playing Roblox.
Dd (wearing headphones and trying to ignore him): Yep.
Creeper: My name is Troy.
Dd: Nice to meet you.
Creeper: I didn't catch your name.
Dd: I didn't throw it.
Creeper: You're a feisty one.
Dd (ignoring him)
Creeper: Tell me something to watch on YouTube.
Dd: I don't care.
Creeper: It can be girly, crazy, or dirty.
At this point Dd leaves and comes to find me.

I guess I wanted something I could tell her other than, "Encounters like this are just what we have to endure as women, and you especially so." It seems like such a bleak outlook on the situation. I LOVE the idea about having her read up on feminist pioneers. She would love that.

I feel like this was a bit too much conversation.  Something like “I didn’t throw it” is engaging too much and seen as a challenge or even come across as flirting.   Just shut it down, ignore it, don’t respond, don’t bother to be polite don’t engage.  

I’m sorry your dd has to live in this stupid world the way it is!  I feel that while on the one hand women have more avenues for dealing with this stuff there seem to be more frankly awful men and boys out there as well.

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, --- said:

In the above, I think she gave this perv WAY too much time and attention.  I would tell her to get up and move beginning with his first statement ("I see you are playing Roblox.")  Don't even let on she heard him, don't look at him, nothing.  Because it looks to me like all she ended up doing was getting sucked into his demand for her attention in the above.  Even "I don't care" is response enough to keep him going.  Plus, she doesn't need to hear crap like "It can be girly, crazy, or dirty."  

Maybe think of it as feeding the bears.  We had bears where we used to live.  If a bear found one, single piece of food, they would be returning to that spot for months, hoping to find more.  The only way to discourage them was to make sure they never found a single piece of food at that spot ever again.  Not even the smell of food.  And, even then, it would take a few tries of never finding that food for them to finally give up.  So the goal for your dd is never to give them that 'food' in the first place.  Don't acknowledge their existence, don't take the time to come back with retorts, etc.  Obviously, get help if needed (librarian, etc.).  Because every time they get a response out of her - even if it's negative - they'll keep on.  Starve the bear.

One of the saddest parts of all this is that she almost has to go around with a kind of angry aura in public just to keep the pervs at bay.  That must be exhausting for her.  It might be interesting to talk to other striking women just to see how some of them handle these things.  

yes - she gave him way too much time.   I agree with a pp that playing a game on a public computer (and the library is public) isn't the wisest choice for anyone.  

however - I wouldn't tell her she has to get up and move.   I would advise her to tell him she has zero interest in what he is selling and to leave her alone.  (that is her only line - after that, she needs to be done.) be definitive. she also needs to learn "the hard stare", because she needs to say it like she *means* it!   that isn't a perpetual hard look, that is one delivered just for him.   if he says one more word to other (other than the equivalent of bye while he walks off) - she moves to step two:

telling him she will be contacting the librarian NOW, the police, etc.   pull out a whistle from her pocket and blow it. (again with the hard stare)  that will get everyone in the library looking at them - and HE won't want that kind of attention.

 

another thought i had about how to handle the ones who come up to her . . . look them up and down (like she's checking them out), and saying "you think I would want to anywhere with you?" (it matters how the line is delivered, - it needs to sound derisive)  (she could even end it with 'you can leave now")  then start laughing uproariously (and don't stop)

Edited October 4, 2018 by gardenmom5

[Sneezyone]

Ya know, I may be alone in this, but I’m getting the sense that some folks think Chelli’s daughter has done something wrong by reacting this or that way, walking too slow, talking too much, not talking enough, playing a game in public. None of these things invite or excuse inappropriate male behavior. The problem isn’t Chelli’s  DD, and I think we have to be very careful, while recognizing that it is her obligation to address these issues in the best way she can, not to make her responsible for them.

[mommyoffive]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Ya know, I may be alone in this, but I’m getting the sense that some folks think Chelli’s daughter has done something wrong by reacting this or that way, walking too slow, talking too much, not talking enough, playing a game in public. None of these things invite or excuse inappropriate male behavior. The problem isn’t Chelli’s  DD, and I think we have to be very careful, while recognizing that it is her obligation to address these issues in the best way she can, not to make her responsible for them.

 

Yes.  I think we need to focus more on boys so that this doesn't happen.  Teach them that to harass girls isn't ok.  That to comment on their bodies isn't acceptable.  

I don't think boys or men are worse now.  I was treated the same way from middle school until a few kids into having kids, so I relate.  This sucks that women are treated like this. 

I think talking to her is great.  Self defense class is  a great idea.  Be prepared.  I am not sure what else can really be done.   

 

 

[Pen]

@Chelli

 I think finding a self defense class would be useful—a gorgeous young woman high school student  I knew got a lot less to deal with by making “I have a black belt in karate “ one of the first things about herself she talked about. 

 

 

I think lessons with an acting coach would be helpful.  I did this myself and found it extremely useful.

 

I wasnt at any of the situations mentioned, but my sense is that Chelli’s dd May inadvertently be giving off more “go on, continue, I’m interested “ flirtation signs of her own than she realizes. 

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Just last week at the library's computer lab she had this encounter:
Creeper (sitting next to my dd in the computer lab): I see you are playing Roblox.
Dd (wearing headphones and trying to ignore him): Yep.
Creeper: My name is Troy.
Dd: Nice to meet you.

 

Creeper’s first line is the sort of innocuous opening that is suggested in books, even classes, on how to strike up a conversation and meet people. 

@Chelli  ‘s dd did not reply with a clear “I’m not interested” type of response. Rather several of her response lines sound to me potentially  like she is wanting to continue or is herself being a flirt. A hopeful boy is probably even more likely to interpret ambiguous responses as being positive and flirty than I am. 

 

If an acting coach can’t be found, at least I suggest a bunch of role playing work with someone to pretend to be the male making unwanted advances and someone else to watch who will give dd the best very early spot to make a very clear statement of disinterest and wish to be left alone. 

Video recording to analyze and make changes or get more ideas and input might also help. 

 

Also, if there are still classes from places like Powers modeling or similar on comportment, that might be a place to get good advice on how to handle oneself while looking like a model. But so as not to be so bothered by unwanted advances. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

She could immediately draw attention to herself from bystanders, for example, int he library or band situation.  "EXCUSE ME! THIS PERSON IS HARASSING ME.  HE'S ASKING ME TO WATCH DIRTY VIDEOS WITH HIM AFTER I'VE REPEATEDLY ASKED HIM TO BACK OFF.  IS THE LIBRARIAN AVAILABLE?  I FEEL UNSAFE."  It's ok to fudge the details slightly when she makes her declaration.  She needs to use words (loudly) like HARASS and UNSAFE when she is calling on bystanders.  

I'm really, really sorry your DD is experiencing this so constantly that she has to factor it into her plans.  Disgusting.  

 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

51 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Ya know, I may be alone in this, but I’m getting the sense that some folks think Chelli’s daughter has done something wrong by reacting this or that way, walking too slow, talking too much, not talking enough, playing a game in public. None of these things invite or excuse inappropriate male behavior. The problem isn’t Chelli’s  DD, and I think we have to be very careful, while recognizing that it is her obligation to address these issues in the best way she can, not to make her responsible for them.

 

40 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

 

Yes.  I think we need to focus more on boys so that this doesn't happen.  Teach them that to harass girls isn't ok.  That to comment on their bodies isn't acceptable.  

I don't think boys or men are worse now.  I was treated the same way from middle school until a few kids into having kids, so I relate.  This sucks that women are treated like this. 

I think talking to her is great.  Self defense class is  a great idea.  Be prepared.  I am not sure what else can really be done.   

 

 

 

OF COURSE this is the boy's faults.  Of course we need to "work on boys" as mothers to boys and teachers of boys and members of society and etc.  But none of that helps this girl IN THIS MOMENT.  

No one in this thread, not once, has blamed Chelli's DD for ANYTHING.  They are giving tips, as real women, living in a real world full of jerks on how to avoid/reduce/stop harassment while it is happening.  Harassment is real, and for some women, a daily event.  It doesn't help to say "work on boys." That's a given.  But it won't stop the harassment that is going to happen 15 minutes from now.  Things like not engaging, calling for bystander help, wearing earbuds, practicing the lunatic look, etc, are helpful tips for the real world.  They shouldn't be necessary, obviously, but we don't all need to tack a bunch of qualifiers onto every single statement.  I would hope it is assumed, in a community that is almost entirely female, that women do not "deserve" harassment for engaging too much/not enough, clothing choice, etc, etc.   

[unsinkable]

5 minutes ago, Monica_in_Switzerland said:

 

 

OF COURSE this is the boy's faults.  Of course we need to "work on boys" as mothers to boys and teachers of boys and members of society and etc.  But none of that helps this girl IN THIS MOMENT.  

No one in this thread, not once, has blamed Chelli's DD for ANYTHING.  They are giving tips, as real women, living in a real world full of jerks on how to avoid/reduce/stop harassment while it is happening.  Harassment is real, and for some women, a daily event.  It doesn't help to say "work on boys." That's a given.  But it won't stop the harassment that is going to happen 15 minutes from now.  Things like not engaging, calling for bystander help, wearing earbuds, practicing the lunatic look, etc, are helpful tips for the real world.  They shouldn't be necessary, obviously, but we don't all need to tack a bunch of qualifiers onto every single statement.  I would hope it is assumed, in a community that is almost entirely female, that women do not "deserve" harassment for engaging too much/not enough, clothing choice, etc, etc.   

 

Agreed

If someone said...how can I stop people from vomitting on me? I was sitting next to this guy and he started making that horking sound and a bit later he puked all over me...and the response is:

"Do THIS as soon as you hear the horking sound" I'm not blaming her for sitting there or for not moving fast enough.

[Familia]

 

5 hours ago, --- said:

Maybe think of it as feeding the bears.  We had bears where we used to live.  If a bear found one, single piece of food, they would be returning to that spot for months,

Great analogy for discussion.

And, the comment below makes me think of an idea I read once that I have not known how to share with my own, but will now.  I have hesitated to share this idea because it strikes me as so 'lay down an accept it-ish', and I have always wanted to empower, But ... something awful may happen.  After all the rehearsing, preparing, following 'the rules' of protecting oneself normally or in practice.  Maybe a situation scares them differently, maybe they give in without fighting hard enough for many reasons only they understand in the moment.  It is vital that our daughter's know 100% - It is never their fault!  Even if they don't fight against it for some reason. 

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Ya know, I may be alone in this, but I’m getting the sense that some folks think Chelli’s daughter has done something wrong by reacting this or that way, walking too slow, talking too much, not talking enough, playing a game in public. None of these things invite or excuse inappropriate male behavior. The problem isn’t Chelli’s  DD, and I think we have to be very careful, while recognizing that it is her obligation to address these issues in the best way she can, not to make her responsible for them.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Familia

[Jean in Newcastle]

I grew up with a LOT of attention overseas.  I learned to differentiate between attention that was benign and not benign.  Of course, the benign attention could easily go south (I got a LOT of comments on the size of my breasts, asking my cup size etc.) but then I learned to call them out on it firmly.  "How rude.  That is out of line.  That is harrassment.  Stop it."  were all the types of unambiguous ways that I could call it out.  It didn't necessarily cause them to reconsider their ways, but it did make it really clear that I wanted them to stop instead of being the kind of "stop but please go on" types of comments that you see on tv shows and movies. 

If you are there or close by, I see nothing wrong with you stepping in to protect her.  Or having a buddy (even another girl) who is there to step in to defend her and back her up.

Dd and I were in a hardware store a few months ago.  A man (20's, shaved head, full facial tattoo) came up to dd and asked her if she wanted to go out.  I said loudly, "She's underage.  Keep moving."  He ignored me and kept trying to get her to go out.  Dd did tell him no and turned to ignore him but he kept coming closer and kept trying to convince her.  I got between him and her and said loudly "I want you to leave my underage daughter alone or I will yell for store security."  He finally backed off.  And then I went and alerted store security so that they could be on the lookout for him in case he was trolling for other girls. 

[Pen]

Chelli can only work with her dd, and I can only communicate with her about her dd. We aren’t hearing from the boys’ parents asking for help and guidance for the boys. 

 

@Chelli 2 other things that may (depends on exact group and teacher etc) have some direct instruction in these areas are:

Our Whole Lives classes (my son’s did)

and

Cotillion classes (a friend’s children boys and girls went through Cotillion training for both dance and etiquette)

[unsinkable]

4 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

This isn’t a funny thread but I admit I laughed really hard over this.

 

And I’m so sorry your DD is getting perved on.  Icy flares and firm responses help, as can pulling the loud victim card or leaving, but so much just depends on what type of jerk she is dealing with.  And none of it should happen to begin with.  Sigh. 

If only there was some Vo-Ban we could toss on top of the people who are vomiting their inappropriate comments all over us.

[Pen]

A Miss Manners approach:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/miss-manners-woman-back-in-dating-game-gets-unpleasant-surprise/2012/10/24/0aea8f66-1d23-11e2-b647-bb1668e64058_story.html

in the top letter and reply. Deals with adult dating, but still could be one part of a 15yo ‘s repertoire of responses. 

I think if is, in a sense, social Vo-Ban  

 

27 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

d to call them out on it firmly.  "How rude.  That is out of line.  That is harrassment.  Stop it."  were all the types of unambiguous ways that I could call it out.  It didn't necessarily cause them to reconsider their ways, but it did make it really clear that I wanted them to stop i

 

I agree with the above. For each remembered incident and for ones that can be thought of possibly happening, I think it would help to prepare and Practice (!) replies like this, possibly including video to look at to make sure voice tone and manner are suitably icy in addition to words. 

[ktgrok]

13 hours ago, J-rap said:

That stuff is so maddening.  I'm sorry.  My dds have found that when they walk confidently and briskly with long strides and a look that says they will take no bs, they have fewer problems.  (It doesn't diminish it completely, of course, but it helps.)  My dds do have a ton of confidence, and I think that kind of attitude shows through and turns some people off.  

I know another trick they do sometimes is take out their cell phone and pretend they're talking on it.

Or use her cell phone to video record the perpetrators. Amazing how people will tone it down if they are being visibly recorded. And if they don't, she has a record to show the school, police, whomever. 

4 hours ago, HeighHo said:

How old was the library creeper? really, playing a social game like roblox in a public space does invite other teens in real life to scrape an acquaintance. Dude was persistent, but she could use a few other ways to shut him down.  Ignoring after responding doesn't work, its an invite.  Go to a disengage, then three declines, each sharper than the last.  If this was an adult in the teen section, the librarian needs to know so the library policy can be followed. 

To help her, she needs some social skills ideas and practice.  That could happen going out in groups with a more savvy friend, or it can be gained from Health class and from movies.  Teen life is filled with casual opportunities to get to know others, and not all of them are going to be sexual in nature.  I would not have taken the library guy as sexual, it was an emotional response to abrupt rejection of  appeal for more attention, meant to save face.  A different response to the initial invite would not have provoked that, especially if there was no male audience.  Not to say that this works for all teens, some of them are from cultures where they will walk up to a girl and begin a sexual description of what they'd like to do to her body....but its not a social invite, its a hostile push and the only effective way to shut that down that I've seen is to give them what they want by walking away without expressing your ick and never return and give them that public space.

 

Maybe just, "I want to be left alone". 

But as to the bolded, um, he mentioned dirty videos. Girly, dirty videos. That's sexual. 

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Ya know, I may be alone in this, but I’m getting the sense that some folks think Chelli’s daughter has done something wrong by reacting this or that way, walking too slow, talking too much, not talking enough, playing a game in public. None of these things invite or excuse inappropriate male behavior. The problem isn’t Chelli’s  DD, and I think we have to be very careful, while recognizing that it is her obligation to address these issues in the best way she can, not to make her responsible for them.

I think the caution is that if we say, "If you are confident and firm they will stop" and then they don't stop, her daughter may feel that means she isn't confident enough or firm enough. That it is her lacking that keeps the strategy from working. That she is asking for it somehow. 

[ktgrok]

13 hours ago, J-rap said:

That stuff is so maddening.  I'm sorry.  My dds have found that when they walk confidently and briskly with long strides and a look that says they will take no bs, they have fewer problems.  (It doesn't diminish it completely, of course, but it helps.)  My dds do have a ton of confidence, and I think that kind of attitude shows through and turns some people off.  

I know another trick they do sometimes is take out their cell phone and pretend they're talking on it.

Or use her cell phone to video record the perpetrators. Amazing how people will tone it down if they are being visibly recorded. And if they don't, she has a record to show the school, police, whomever. 

4 hours ago, HeighHo said:

How old was the library creeper? really, playing a social game like roblox in a public space does invite other teens in real life to scrape an acquaintance. Dude was persistent, but she could use a few other ways to shut him down.  Ignoring after responding doesn't work, its an invite.  Go to a disengage, then three declines, each sharper than the last.  If this was an adult in the teen section, the librarian needs to know so the library policy can be followed. 

To help her, she needs some social skills ideas and practice.  That could happen going out in groups with a more savvy friend, or it can be gained from Health class and from movies.  Teen life is filled with casual opportunities to get to know others, and not all of them are going to be sexual in nature.  I would not have taken the library guy as sexual, it was an emotional response to abrupt rejection of  appeal for more attention, meant to save face.  A different response to the initial invite would not have provoked that, especially if there was no male audience.  Not to say that this works for all teens, some of them are from cultures where they will walk up to a girl and begin a sexual description of what they'd like to do to her body....but its not a social invite, its a hostile push and the only effective way to shut that down that I've seen is to give them what they want by walking away without expressing your ick and never return and give them that public space.

 

Maybe just, "I want to be left alone". 

But as to the bolded, um, he mentioned dirty videos. Girly, dirty videos. That's sexual. 

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Ya know, I may be alone in this, but I’m getting the sense that some folks think Chelli’s daughter has done something wrong by reacting this or that way, walking too slow, talking too much, not talking enough, playing a game in public. None of these things invite or excuse inappropriate male behavior. The problem isn’t Chelli’s  DD, and I think we have to be very careful, while recognizing that it is her obligation to address these issues in the best way she can, not to make her responsible for them.

I think the caution is that if we say, "If you are confident and firm they will stop" and then they don't stop, her daughter may feel that means she isn't confident enough or firm enough. That it is her lacking that keeps the strategy from working. That she is asking for it somehow. 

[ktgrok]

Maybe give her permission to lie and say, "My dad's a cop, and I'm underage."

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

 

I think the caution is that if we say, "If you are confident and firm they will stop" and then they don't stop, her daughter may feel that means she isn't confident enough or firm enough. That it is her lacking that keeps the strategy from working. That she is asking for it somehow. 

 

THIS. There is no secret sauce or recipe she can follow that will make the harassment stop. Something that works once may not work again or may invite even further hostility.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Sneezyone

[Pen]

4 hours ago, SamanthaCarter said:

Creeper (sitting next to my dd in the computer lab): I see you are playing Roblox.
Dd (wearing headphones Ignores with silence. ) 
Creeper: My name is Troy.
Dd (medium loud) I am busy please leave me alone. 
Creeper: I didn't catch your name.
Dd: (louder) I am busy please leave me alone. 
Creeper: You're a feisty one.
Dd (very loudly so many others can hear) Go Away or I will scream for help.
Creeper: Tell me something to watch on YouTube.
Dd: (scream) help this man won’t leave me alone!
Creeper: It can be girly, crazy, or dirty.
At this point Dd leaves and comes to find me. while screaming and pointing at man “that guy is sexually harassing me!”

 

 

This assumes the guy is an adult  It might be different if he were a child  

Another possible response set above. 

[mom@shiloh]

5 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Where do you live? This is horrible! I’ve never seen such disgusting rudeness where I am and I know dozens of young men who would take up for a girl being abused like you described. This is something that In our area we teach our sons. 

This is what I wanted to say.  I don't know a single young man who would act this way or put up with other guys who do. 

I'm not questioning that this is a daily experience for her. (I was young and pretty once upon a time.)  I just want to reiterate that there are still decent young men out there. 

I don't have any advice to add, but I'm very sorry that she has had to experience this.  

[fairfarmhand]

1 minute ago, mom@shiloh said:

This is what I wanted to say.  I don't know a single young man who would act this way or put up with other guys who do. 

I'm not questioning that this is a daily experience for her. (I was young and pretty once upon a time.)  I just want to reiterate that there are still decent young men out there. 

I don't have any advice to add, but I'm very sorry that she has had to experience this.  

Exactly. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Coming back one more time to say that the reason I suggested learning to differentiate between benign and non-benign is that I don't think that Chelli wants her daughter to learn to be afraid of or standoffish to ALL boys ALL THE TIME.  There are nice young men out there who have manners and integrity and while they will still notice her beauty, will get to know her as more than just a pretty face.

Also- the biggest help for my dd is her group of peers.  If she's with her friends (both boys and girls), and someone were to harass her, she would have a bunch of angry teens backing her up and telling the person to knock it off. 

[Liz CA]

11 hours ago, moonflower said:

 

I'm as far from a feminist as you can get, but saying that "cat calling, whistling, etc. can be ignored" is pretty much the definition of "we poor women have to endure this."

 

I see it differently. I don't have to respond to every little thing that is being said or yelled around me. I personally don't feel I am "enduring" anything by ignoring it. Others may feel they do. This is not saying I support cat calling; it is merely acknowledging that some people will continue to do this whether I like it or not. But when someone sits next to a girl in a library and starts to address her directly, in her face and ends up completely losing all frame of reference for what is appropriate then she needs a plan of action IMHO.

[Chelli]

This is super helpful guys!

You are giving me lots of good things to talk to her about and work with her through role play.

Unfortunately, other than the high school incident last week, all of her interactions have been with men in their 20's and 30's. In their defense, she does look like she could be in her 20's as well. In fact, people have thought she's her three year old cousin's and her eight year old brother's mom before. I thought about having her mention how old she is when older men are harassing her, but then I thought that might not be a wise idea for them to know her age. Thoughts?

Also, as a pp mentioned earlier in this thread, my biggest problem with the entire thing is how she's going to have to change her personality when she's out and about in public. She's normally an extroverted, fun, out-going teen, and I feel awful that I'm going to coach her through how to hide those things when out in the general public.