Public school and dd - social issues

[bethben]

About 3-4 days out of 5, Dd is coming home upset.  Sometimes it's about how she doesn't understand the school work, but mostly, it's the social dynamic of a public school.  She gets bugged by her class because they don't behave as well as she thinks they should and they lose privileges, she is hurt when other girls say mean things to her, she is bugged when other kids make faces at her, and the list goes on and on.  Basically, social dynamics are really hard for her.  She's basically a fourth grade policeman and wants everyone to obey.  She will stick her nose into situations that it doesn't belong and more and more other students are sick of it and calling her out on it. Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long to catch up with her.  She does have friends that enjoy her and lots of friends wanting to play with her after school, but there's always going to be the "mean" girls or the "honest" girls and she's having trouble with that dynamic.

 

I don't want to homeschool her.  I feel like a counselor trying to explain human behavior to her so she can adjust.  She does need to adjust a bit.  Her personality can be a little abrasive at times but her intent is kindness and justice for those oppressed. Despite all these woes she brings home, she still is insistent on going to school.

 

We do have her in a lottery system for a different school and do want her to go to it, but knowing that social dynamics are similar in any group of kids all the same age, I'm starting to question that decision.   I sooo don't want to homeschool her, but am I looking at having no choice in the situation to preserve her emotional future?

 

 

[AmandaVT]

Your DD and my DS would be great in a class together! He has similar issues in his coops. He gets visibly upset when kids are misbehaving, however mildly. For him, it stems from anxiety. We have a great therapist that he's been working with for 6 months or so and she's been helping him work through these situations. Any chance your DD's could come from an anxious place as well?

[Farrar]

Honestly, 4th-5th grade is usually a pretty good time for kids in school socially speaking. This stuff is only going to get worse. I'd focus on supporting her now and brace yourself with an exit plan for middle school if it does go further south for her. Poor kid. These things are hard to navigate for some kids and, yeah, school doesn't make it easier for a lot of them. 

[lmrich]

Please get her counseling. This is only going to get worse. It will be hard going for her and for you, but she can learn through a great counselor and social skills class.  :grouphug:

[catz]

Please get her counseling. This is only going to get worse. It will be hard going for her and for you, but she can learn through a great counselor and social skills class.  :grouphug:

 

:iagree:   I would start with this and keep her teacher and school in the loop.  She may be anxious or have depression, so I'd be open to all possibilities.  But above all, stay alert.  Give her time to talk and decompress after school so you can stay attuned to how she is feeling.  If she is miserable day after day be prepared to make a quick change. 

[Terabith]

I don’t know. For us, fourth grade was the peak of girl drama. I’ve been pleasantly surprised at how the kids are much chiller by middle school.

[bethben]

Your DD and my DS would be great in a class together! He has similar issues in his coops. He gets visibly upset when kids are misbehaving, however mildly. For him, it stems from anxiety. We have a great therapist that he's been working with for 6 months or so and she's been helping him work through these situations. Any chance your DD's could come from an anxious place as well?

 

My DD is not showing signs of anxiety at all.  If anything, she desires justice.  Usually "upset" with her means angry - angry that the class won't behave and angry that they keep losing privileges.  There is a lot of what I consider to be a bad discipline policy at that school that basically pits students against each other to help with classroom management.  I also don't believe that the teacher has complete control of the class and the school's incentive program he's supposed to use is obviously not working but he doesn't seem to have any other incentives that he can use.  Sometimes her frustration leads to tears.  Mostly, it's when she's felt bullied which usually is some child spoke rudely to her.  So, if she does wind up being homeschooled as a default and anyone brings up the socialization question, I will have a mouthful for them.

[Katy]

Before I'd go with counseling, I'd approach it from a religious and moral perspective (I see Sonlight and Apologia for the 12 year old).  I think this is the age where understanding nuance is important, as is realizing that most of her peers in a public school are not raised in the same sort of black and white thinking that she has.  Does she have any experience where she was breaking the rules and someone told on her?  Annoying sibling?  A more literal child and a situation where she got it but they didn't?  A time when she disobeyed you and was annoyed when a sibling told on her?

 

I ultimately think this is a matter of understanding nuance, judgment, and empathy.  For Christians, it's a matter of not calling out others because it's hypocritical (Matthew 7:5, Luke 6:42).  Proverbs and its advice to keep your mouth shut helps a bit too.  At any rate, there are going to be a lot of situations in her future where the people around her are going to make poor choices, and being sanctimonious is not going to help her to either be liked OR convert others.  You could also perhaps explain that was the same dynamic the Pharisees had for Jesus. Jesus had nothing good to say about the self-righteous being justified (Luke 18:9-14).

[Katy]

It does sound like the policy leaves much to be desired.

[Nart]

It really, really depends on what is going on in the class. If the teacher has poor classroom management and/or a really difficult class to handle, then it isn't that your daughter has a problem, it is a classroom issue. It is really frustrating for well behaved kids to be in a chaotic environment with kids who don't want to learn especially when teachers enforce group punishments in order to try and have the better behaved kids try and convince the kids not behaving to improve. So if the teacher is saying to the class , "Everyone needs to listen and be quiet or you ALL will miss 5 minutes of recess or you ALL will have to do extra work" then it makes sense she is getting upset. My older son who is well-behaved sometimes gets seated next to kids who need "a positive peer model", which is really annoying to him when the kids talk, copy off his paper, and misbehave. 

 

However, if the class is a typical class where the teacher has control of the classroom, then your daughter needs help coping. 

 

Is this a high performing charter school?  Was it easy to enroll in this charter? Does it have a waiting list? If it was easy to enroll with no waiting list, often times Charter Schools like this attract students who had behavior issues at another school. Either the parents are mad at the local public school because there child was reprimanded and don't believe their child can do wrong so they go in search of another school OR the local school encourages the families of harder to educate students to enroll in another school.  Newer charter schools also sometimes attract new teachers who are looking for their first job. 

[bethben]

She has a new teacher. The class has only gotten the incentive for the week once or twice. They usually lose it by Tuesday. It got to a point that I told dd if the class lost it, I would make her Friday special. Often, the class gets the incentive anyway not due to earning it but some teacher loop hole so what’s the point of losing it in the first place?

 

It’s a neighborhood charter school so mostly kids from our large neighborhood go there. We are not returning partially because of how the school wide class management system is and partially because “innovated education†in their mission statement means “we will use all the technology we can to educate childrenâ€.

 

Btw, dd just asked me to homeschool her again. This is new. She has been opposed to it in the past. We are finishing out the year so we’ll see if she continues to feel this way. Regardless, it’s DH and my decision with consideration of her desires and a lot of prayer.

 

 

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[sassenach]

It's probably all of the above. It's the school, it's the teacher, it's the kids, it's her. Black and white, high justice kids are always going to struggle with group dynamics. So, yes, part of this is teaching her how to socially cope and mature. You might have to put as much energy into that as you would into homeschooling. 

 

If the question is do we go to the new school or homeschool, I guess I would think through what you want your next few years to look like. IME, this personality type seems to get a little more malleable around 12/13 years old. 

 

No right or wrong answers here. Personally, this post doesn't scream "get into counseling" to me, but I could be wrong.

 

Here's what I do know, homeschooling when mom doesn't want to is usually not fun for anyone. If you are really feeling no desire to homeschool, I would probably focus your energy on school placement and coaching her.

[Storygirl]

This is going to sound blunt, and I don't mean it to, but I think it's something to consider. Is there a chance that your daughter is not NT? Have you ever suspected autism? The rigid thinking and difficulty with social skills seem extreme. I myself was a very black and white thinker as a child, and I hated it with others didn't follow the rules, so I sympatize with her. But I also think that her trouble with keeping her thoughts to herself is atypical.

 

The suggestion for counseling is a good one. But also, have you talked to the school and teacher about this? Social skills is an area that the school can evaluate for, and if it is affecting her opportunities to access her education, public schools are required to test and provide services, if she qualifies for them. The person in a school district who addresses social goals is a speech and language therapist (SLP). If her policing is affecting others in the class, and not just herself, it may be something that the teacher would agree should be evaluated.

 

Finally, :grouphug:. I have a child who lacks understanding of social skills, though his issues present differently. He does get therapy from a SLP through his IEP, even though he is a private school, not public. Social skills affect employability, so it's important to get help for the long term, even if you make a different school choice for next year.

[Ellie]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I feel her pain. I was your dd.

 

I see that she is your only daughter? That makes her a first born (read "The Birth Order Book"). And she is a classic first born. We firstborns struggle with those kinds of issues all our life. Mostly we figure it out by the time we are adults, but it can be helpful if our parents and others close to us understand our thought processes and help us work through things.

 

I think you might find "The Birth Order Book" helpful. 

[Tsuga]

Having read about the school, it sounds like a really specific situation.

 

I think my kids would hate that school as well. But I also know my kids did not work with me and I couldn't make it work with them for homeschooling, either. We are incredibly fortunate to be in a school district where the kids can get an accelerated, whole child education with lots of hands-on enrichment.

 

I hope you get into a school that's a better fit.

 

 

 

 Mostly, it's when she's felt bullied which usually is some child spoke rudely to her.

 

Unkindness is real, and it hurts.

 

THat said, bullying is pretty specific. Have you talked to her about the difference between people being rude, and bullying?

[katilac]

If she's coming home upset more often than not, I would seriously consider having her talk with someone. They could suss out whether this is coming from a place of anxiety, along with her tendency for rigid thinking, and either way they can begin teaching her strategies for dealing with it, along with more routine social skills. 

 

My biggest parental regret is not addressing my kids' anxiety sooner. And by that I mean addressing it professionally, because we did address and work on various things at home. The problem is that it can be hard for a parent to figure out what behavior just needs teaching, and what behavior is stemming from anxiety. 

 

I absolutely feel for her, because I was the kid who cried when the principal made an announcement about our grade (5th or 6th) being too noisy and rowdy in the hallway. We were the only grade who walked directly in front of the office, so it wasn't fair - of course we sounded louder to the principal! 

[katilac]

Coming back to add two things. 

 

First, in addition to the above, an objective outsider might also be able to feel out if your dd is telling the whole story. Sometimes upsetting things happen, and kids are embarrassed to tell us that they were truly bullied (by students or teachers). They think they should have handled it better, or that it wouldn't have happened to someone else. It's easier to say that you're upset because the teacher is unfair, while leaving out that you're also upset because the teacher called you annoying. Being ashamed of being bullied is a very common reaction. If she has adamantly wanted to go to school, and suddenly changed that, I would want to make sure I knew as much as possible what was going on. 

 

Second, a short-term solution that might help your dd whilst getting things sorted out: would writing down what's unfair help keep her from saying it out loud? Sometimes kids with big feelings just have to react, right now! If she could write down Tyler got to be line leader even though he didn't do his homework, no fair! might that keep her from saying it? At least right there in class, and then she could tell you later at home. Explain it to her teacher, because you don't want her to be asked to share with the rest of the class, lol. I think most teachers would consider some extra scribbling to be preferable to vocal outbursts, particularly if presented as one part of working on the problem. 

[bettyandbob]

One of my dc has a lot of anxiety which manifests as anger. So, consider that your DD may actually have anxiety.

 

The school or teacher may not be good, but your DD may still have a problem that needs to be addressed. Even if you homeschool you should consider therapy and social skills training. No one likes a tattler. No one likes some one butting in. No one likes judgement. These are behaviors she can control. She cannot control the behavior of others.

 

For very basic stuff, I taught my dc that you only intervene (say something) if the situation involves blood or danger. He was able to stick with that and it helped.

[2squared]

One of my dc has a lot of anxiety which manifests as anger. So, consider that your DD may actually have anxiety.

 

The school or teacher may not be good, but your DD may still have a problem that needs to be addressed. Even if you homeschool you should consider therapy and social skills training. No one likes a tattler. No one likes some one butting in. No one likes judgement. These are behaviors she can control. She cannot control the behavior of others.

 

For very basic stuff, I taught my dc that you only intervene (say something) if the situation involves blood or danger. He was able to stick with that and it helped.

I have raised my kids to do the right thing and have a lot of empathy. Those traits are difficult in middle school if they can't also laugh at themselves and shrug things off, which I missed teaching my older kids. I was so busy trahing them to see injustice and to do the right thing that I didn't teach them to ignore the litttle things.

 

Now I have a better balance. We tease at home, we laugh at each other in fun, we use sarcasm some now, and I actively show how to let others roll off our backs. It has helped a lot with how my kids are able to interact socially. I did my first two a disservice by not teaching them those things when they were little.

 

I think you need to evaluate the unkind things the kids are saying. Is it at a level where it's bullying or is it more thoughtless things being said? Are these things she should be able to ignore or laugh off or jab back at - normal social give and take - or is it actual bullying? If it's normal thoughtless comments, I think you can help her more by teaching her how to interact in those situations than by removing her.

[Xahm]

This is probably good advice, but I have to add: please, please do not have her do this in a journal where these will become a little collection. The other kids are likely to notice, and if one grabs the notebook and starts reading aloud, things will get really bad really fast. Little scraps of paper that are immediately tossed out would serve the same purpose without looking to the other kids like she is keeping a log of their transgressions.

 

Coming back to add two things.

 

First, in addition to the above, an objective outsider might also be able to feel out if your dd is telling the whole story. Sometimes upsetting things happen, and kids are embarrassed to tell us that they were truly bullied (by students or teachers). They think they should have handled it better, or that it wouldn't have happened to someone else. It's easier to say that you're upset because the teacher is unfair, while leaving out that you're also upset because the teacher called you annoying. Being ashamed of being bullied is a very common reaction. If she has adamantly wanted to go to school, and suddenly changed that, I would want to make sure I knew as much as possible what was going on.

 

Second, a short-term solution that might help your dd whilst getting things sorted out: would writing down what's unfair help keep her from saying it out loud? Sometimes kids with big feelings just have to react, right now! If she could write down Tyler got to be line leader even though he didn't do his homework, no fair! might that keep her from saying it? At least right there in class, and then she could tell you later at home. Explain it to her teacher, because you don't want her to be asked to share with the rest of the class, lol. I think most teachers would consider some extra scribbling to be preferable to vocal outbursts, particularly if presented as one part of working on the problem.

Edited February 6, 2018 by xahm

[SparklyUnicorn]

I felt like that as a kid, but I learned very early on never to say anything about it.  It's cooler to be the rule breaker.  Even the teachers think so.

 

 

[readinmom]

4th grade can be a tough transition for some, and there are a lot of social power plays going on.  At the private school I first taught at, girls created a club (think Mean Girls) where they basically decided the social hierarchy for the 3rd and 4th grades.  It led to a lot shunning, anxiety, etc.  I feel for your daughter, but switching schools is not going to help with the key issue here.  She needs to be proactive, not reactive.  You might want to read the book Queen Bees and Wannabees to help your daughter navigate the social aspect of school.  It is geared for young adolescents but the information might be helpful for what's going on in her classroom.  

 

Sorry this is happening...

 

Edited February 6, 2018 by readinmom

[bethben]

I don’t believe she is ASD. She does get along well with a wide variety of friends and is more malleable with them although she still likes to be in charge. We talk a lot when she comes home from school with issues.

 

Yesterday, when she felt bullied, she told me the whole story. I did explain the difference between a child who says the first thing they think (which 10 year olds do) and a true bully. We talk about self government vs. external government. We talk about being mean vs. asking a question out of curiosity. She does have access to the school counselor because she was having stress issues related to classroom noise. The writing down mid-deeds was actually discussed but we both figured out that dd needs to learn to ignore more than anything else. So, I continue to tell dd to ignore the school rules concerning students policing students which is hard for my Type A dd.

 

She is on a lottery for a different charter school and this time, I learned to ask a lot of questions. It sounds like it will be a better fit in a lot of ways. We’ll see if she gets in. Otherwise, we’re back to homeschooling. Sigh...

 

 

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[bethben]

Btw, dd is given kudos and personal points for helping manage the classroom per school rules. They encourage and reward children to help other children to behave. I’ve told dd to just worry about herself, but her desire to be a good student and help her teacher whom she loves over rides what I say right now. I hate the system.

 

 

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[Lang Syne Boardie]

Any system of rewarding children for helping to manage the classroom, especially if that is to be done by policing and tattling on the other children, would be so far opposed to my personal values that I wouldn't leave a child in that environment for a single day.

 

Which is not helpful for me to share, in one sense - it hardly makes a better school materialize for you.

 

But in another sense, I thought maybe it would help to know that other parents think these policies are harmful and wrong, and do not think your daughter should adapt to them.

[bettyandbob]

Btw, dd is given kudos and personal points for helping manage the classroom per school rules. They encourage and reward children to help other children to behave. I’ve told dd to just worry about herself, but her desire to be a good student and help her teacher whom she loves over rides what I say right now. I hate the system.

 

 

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This is part of the problem. She will be a pariah if she continues to do this.

[BlsdMama]

About 3-4 days out of 5, Dd is coming home upset.  Sometimes it's about how she doesn't understand the school work, but mostly, it's the social dynamic of a public school.  She gets bugged by her class because they don't behave as well as she thinks they should and they lose privileges, she is hurt when other girls say mean things to her, she is bugged when other kids make faces at her, and the list goes on and on.  Basically, social dynamics are really hard for her.  She's basically a fourth grade policeman and wants everyone to obey.  She will stick her nose into situations that it doesn't belong and more and more other students are sick of it and calling her out on it. Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long to catch up with her.  She does have friends that enjoy her and lots of friends wanting to play with her after school, but there's always going to be the "mean" girls or the "honest" girls and she's having trouble with that dynamic.

 

I don't want to homeschool her.  I feel like a counselor trying to explain human behavior to her so she can adjust.  She does need to adjust a bit.  Her personality can be a little abrasive at times but her intent is kindness and justice for those oppressed. Despite all these woes she brings home, she still is insistent on going to school.

 

We do have her in a lottery system for a different school and do want her to go to it, but knowing that social dynamics are similar in any group of kids all the same age, I'm starting to question that decision.   I sooo don't want to homeschool her, but am I looking at having no choice in the situation to preserve her emotional future?

 

 

Is she an Aspie?  Even if she isn't, you might find it useful to have her watch a few social videos "how to" created by/for Aspie kids.  It shows digital interactions about when to speak up, etc., that sometimes has a little more impact than mom talk.

[BlsdMama]

I don’t believe she is ASD. She does get along well with a wide variety of friends and is more malleable with them although she still likes to be in charge. We talk a lot when she comes home from school with issues.

 

Yesterday, when she felt bullied, she told me the whole story. I did explain the difference between a child who says the first thing they think (which 10 year olds do) and a true bully. We talk about self government vs. external government. We talk about being mean vs. asking a question out of curiosity. She does have access to the school counselor because she was having stress issues related to classroom noise. The writing down mid-deeds was actually discussed but we both figured out that dd needs to learn to ignore more than anything else. So, I continue to tell dd to ignore the school rules concerning students policing students which is hard for my Type A dd.

 

She is on a lottery for a different charter school and this time, I learned to ask a lot of questions. It sounds like it will be a better fit in a lot of ways. We’ll see if she gets in. Otherwise, we’re back to homeschooling. Sigh...

 

 

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Sorry - didn't realize that you answered this.  I will mention that if she doesn't understand kids' faces and social situations, it is very possible.  Girls with what they USED to call Aspergers is very, very different than the stereoptype.  

 

It is entirely possible this scenario will play out again in the charter system.  If she doesn't understand what she does to rub people the wrong way and continues, it will not matter the scenario - whether public, private, charter, or adult career.  I have a DD like this.  

[PeterPan]

I don’t believe she is ASD. She does get along well with a wide variety of friends and is more malleable with them although she still likes to be in charge. We talk a lot when she comes home from school with issues.

 

I have no clue whether she is on the spectrum or not, but what you're saying there wouldn't decide it. Girl spectrum is going to look different from the more common boy spectrum. She sounds very rigid, controlling, rule-following, she has anxiety, and she's having issues with noise. That's a lot of ticks in the "look for a fuller explanation" category. 

 

Schools tend to be short shrift at exploring autism and more complex issues. Some schools have an ADOS team, but ours sure doesn't. They have an SLP with a certificate, big whoop. They tend to leave under-identified kids who are higher functioning and they then don't provide supports and services. Whatever is going on, your dd's issues are affecting her significantly, like it's actually coming up and being enough that it's affecting life. 

 

There is pragmatics testing like the Social Language Development test that the school could run that would be reliable at this age. I'm not a fan of the GARS. The ASRS is ok. I just had the ADOS done on my ds and they *can* do it on adults with modification. It's actually a really interesting way to bring out a lot of behaviors connected to autism, because they spend the whole session trying to bring out the behaviors. The questionaires (GARS, ASRS, blah blah) are just really dependent on what other people notice, how many people are with her enough to notice them, etc. 

 

There's also a range of social thinking deficits. Socialthinking - Articles  This article is particularly helpful to people in seeing how someone could have social thinking deficits and benefit from supports, irrespective of label, no label, etc.

[Storygirl]

At that age, I was a very black-and-white thinker. I knew right from wrong and was a rule follower, and I thought everyone else should be that way. I thought I had the moral high ground. I think I only tattled at home about my siblings. But at school I had a lot of trouble making friends. I was an introvert, but I was sad and lonely. Not just one year at school, but throughout my school years. I finally made a lasting friend in seventh grade and became part of her friend group, but I wasn't ever truly well liked, and even in high school, I felt many of my "friends" didn't really like me. I often felt adrift, unconnected, misunderstood, unliked. I was often left out and normally on the periphery of my friends' social activities.

 

I really didn't get it, because I knew I was a good person. I didn't feel happy socially until college, when I found some real friends. But even then there were times when I felt those same old feelings. I carried them with me, and they would crop back up again when my college friends didn't meet my expectations. Not meeting my expectations didn't always mean they were doing something wrong or purposefully alienating me. But I wanted my friends to be like me, make similar choices, have the same moral opinions. Because I knew I was a good person who knew what was right. When my friends didn't line up with that, I had a hard time.

 

Now, I was not outspoken when I felt a grievance (except for tattling on my siblings at home), because I was a shy introvert. I would just feel the hurt inside. But I also am sure that people detected my judgey attitude, and that that is what kept them from seeking me out as a friend.

 

How did my parents help with this? They didn't. Mom saw it, but her response over the years was to tell me I was too controlling (without helping me learn better skills), suggest I try to be a cheerleader to become more popular :glare:, etc.

 

I think the very worst thing that she did was to constantly tell me, "No one likes a tattletale," when I would go to her with a problem with my siblings. I had a mean older brother who was bigger, stronger, and picked on me. I needed adult help to deal with him, so of course I tattled at home. 

 

Now, that phrase has the ring of truth, right? It's an accurate concept. However, I already knew that people didn't like me, so when Mom said it, it stung, and it was a rejection of my (immature) requests for help dealing with a problem. Forty years later, I still hear her voice saying that to me, more than any other thing I remember her saying during my childhood. So yes, teach that concept, but don't use that phrase!

 

So what would have helped me? I really, really, really, really, really, really, really wish Mom would have gotten me some counseling to learn how to manage my feelings. And I also wish I could have had the kind of social skills classes that are available today. I'm not sure they were around in the 70s. And I probably would have not wanted to go, because I thought I was right about everything and didn't need the help. But the adult Me wishes I had had it. I do, by the way, have a lot of anxiety. I did as a child, and I still do. I'm not sure it shows on the outside to others, because I still try to appear that I have everything all together.

 

My intense need for everyone to do things the right way also affects my parenting and my relationship with my kids, by the way. Often in a not-good way. I think getting help when I was younger would have had a lasting impact on the way I handle things in life.

 

So please consider social skills therapy.

 

:grouphug:

 

ETA: The other thing my mom told me that was not helpful (but was meant to be comforting, I'm sure) was that people probably didn't like me because they were jealous that I was so smart and did well at school. Saying that they were jealous just reinforced the idea for me that I was standing in the place of righteousness and not really doing anything that needed to be corrected.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Storygirl

[PeterPan]

Socialthinking - Products  Here is the list Social Thinking sells of books when you filter for ages 14-18 and then limit it to social problem solving. There are books like The Hidden Curriculum and How Rude! The Teenager's Guide.... Also Socially Curious, Should I/Shouldn't I (a game, might be PERFECT for her), and Social Fortune. You can just look through things. Lots of different presentation styles there to find something that fits.

[bethben]

The classroom policy is a whole school policy. Each class has different hand signals to warn kids beforehand that their behavior may get in trouble. There’s a whole schoolwide mantra for this system. They drill it into the kids to the point dd can recall the rules quickly. She is being encouraged to be black and white and judge mental of others actions. It reinforces her behavior that really needs to tone down. I did have a meeting with the teacher and school counselor. At that meeting, the teacher stopped taking away personal behavior “points†for bad classroom behavior (also school policy suggested). Just doing that one thing made her anger at kid behavior go down tons. Other classroom policies are school wide so even if we tried to change her classroom situation, I would find myself fighting the administration who set up the policy.

 

 

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[brehon]

Btw, dd is given kudos and personal points for helping manage the classroom per school rules. They encourage and reward children to help other children to behave. I’ve told dd to just worry about herself, but her desire to be a good student and help her teacher whom she loves over rides what I say right now. I hate the system.

 

 

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This isn’t actually a positive point for the school.

[City Mouse]

This is going to sound blunt, and I don't mean it to, but I think it's something to consider. Is there a chance that your daughter is not NT? Have you ever suspected autism? The rigid thinking and difficulty with social skills seem extreme. I myself was a very black and white thinker as a child, and I hated it with others didn't follow the rules, so I sympatize with her. But I also think that her trouble with keeping her thoughts to herself is atypical.

 

The suggestion for counseling is a good one. But also, have you talked to the school and teacher about this? Social skills is an area that the school can evaluate for, and if it is affecting her opportunities to access her education, public schools are required to test and provide services, if she qualifies for them. The person in a school district who addresses social goals is a speech and language therapist (SLP). If her policing is affecting others in the class, and not just herself, it may be something that the teacher would agree should be evaluated.

 

Finally, :grouphug:. I have a child who lacks understanding of social skills, though his issues present differently. He does get therapy from a SLP through his IEP, even though he is a private school, not public. Social skills affect employability, so it's important to get help for the long term, even if you make a different school choice for next year.

Your DD sounds a lot like mine- super focused on the "rules". She used to get very angry any time some did anything (such as accidentally bump her arm) not because of the accident but because the person did not say "sorry". I tried the "do you want to be right, or do you want to have someone to play with?" She chose "right" every time. She was not diagnosed as having autism until she was an adult, but I always suspected.

[Innisfree]

Judging where the ASD spectrum ends and fades into theoretically neurotypical behavior is hard.

 

My older dd is very much like yours, OP; so far she has not been diagnosed with ASD, but several professionals have seen those traits in her behavior. Similar school situations (though without the school policy context you're describing-- that sounds bizarre) always drove her nuts.

 

We pulled her out of school after fourth grade, because she was always miserable about this sort of thing. We had exhausted the counseling help the school could provide.

 

In retrospect, though, I wish we had realized we really needed to help her learn to be more flexible. We thought the same thing she did-- that the problem was teasing, bullying, lack of discipline, noisy classrooms, etc. We did not realize that at least an equal problem was that dd herself was inflexible and rigid in her thinking.

 

That inflexibility did not go away. In fact, as time went on it became more apparent that she was not dealing well with an essentially normal range of behavior from other kids. When she tried to return to school for high school, it was as much of a problem as ever.

 

So, while it may or may not be ASD you're seeing, I would echo those suggesting help with flexibility and social thinking. There are a lot of good resources now, like the ones PeterPan linked. It's a lot easier to address these issues with a younger child than with an all-knowing teen, and you could spare her years of trouble dealing with others.

[Storygirl]

Can you clarify for me what you were doing that needed to be corrected or was actively alienating the other kids? I didn’t really get that from your story and am interested. I always struggled with this, myself, as a kid, but it turns it the problem was me but stupid kid social dynamics. Because once I got into college and adulthood I suddenly had tons of friends and have never had trouble making or keeping them. But I had to get out of the kid social cesspool.

 

It wasn’t me, it was that I wasn’t good at playing ‘the game’ and didn’t defend myself or kowtow to the social order. But I always had a best friend and a few good friends to socialize with st any given point too. I just got bullied, made fun of, and never fit well anywhere with kids my own age.

 

I never understood why the other kids didn't like me, but I can guess.

 

I always felt more mature and more comfortable with older people. Teachers loved me. I think it was probably a vicious cycle. I was shy and had a hard time joining into play with others, because it felt awkward and as if they didn't welcome me. I think I just seemed set apart to the other kids and hard to get to know. And then I was teacher's pet and always behaving. I did generally make one friend each school year, but every single year, they moved away, and I had to start over the next year.

 

I didn't like it when people didn't follow rules. And I just think they could tell and thought I didn't like them. I may have told others not to do wrong things, though I don't remember doing that other than with my siblings.

 

I do remember on the first day of kindergarten, I went out to recess and joined in with my neighborhood friend. G turned to me and said in a snotty tone, "Just because I'm friends with you at home doesn't mean I'll be friends with you at school." Bam. No friends now at school, and I had to start trying to make some, which seemed hard for reasons I never understood. She was always popular throughout school, and I was always lonely. She didn't make my social life different from then on because of that comment; I just think it highlights the difficulty. There was something about me that other kids my age didn't like.

 

I think because I was so "good" and a perfect rule follower, that must have given off an attitude of judgement towards others, though I don't remember doing that purposefully.

 

I do know that I always felt that if X was the right thing to do, I needed to do X, and everyone else should do X, and people who were doing Y were wrong. And probably "bad." They probably could tell that I thought that. :sad:

 

I don't think anyone would think I'm on the spectrum, but I sometimes wonder if my dad is. I think he and I both have some social difficulty traits. I still find making friends and some other social things to be difficult.

 

[Joyofsixreboot]

I could have written this about the 14 yuo who is dipping her toe into some public classes. Her complaint is student behavior and lack of consequences. I'm tired of explaining you can't legislate morality and common sense.

 

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[bethben]

I think her rigidity has some to do with right and wrong but a lot more to do with promised rewards that

are constantly never earned. She wants the reward at the end of the week that the teacher wants to give but the classroom behavior always interferes. I’ve promised her rewards on Friday if the class doesn’t earn it. She still gets upset though.

 

 

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[Katy]

I could have written this about the 14 yuo who is dipping her toe into some public classes. Her complaint is student behavior and lack of consequences. I'm tired of explaining you can't legislate morality and common sense.

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

I have had this exact same conversation. I got tired of explaining that this is why we thought home school is a better idea, and that for most kids in middle and high school, school is more about a babysitter that fills up their day than it is about learning... hence the busy work and teachers that don't care.

[PeterPan]

I think her rigidity has some to do with right and wrong but a lot more to do with promised rewards that

are constantly never earned. She wants the reward at the end of the week that the teacher wants to give but the classroom behavior always interferes. I’ve promised her rewards on Friday if the class doesn’t earn it. She still gets upset though.

 

 

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She's 10? That's pretty spectrum-y. Just saying. You're saying she has behaviors and is upset if things don't go according to plan. Do the other kids in the class have these struggles, or just her?

 

These are questions psychs ask when they're sorting through things. They will ask what happens if things don't go the way she expected. You've got a lot of red flags.

 

The school could run the SLDT on her. You could make a written request. You could talk with your ped and get a referral for some screening. You just have a lot of dots here for SOMETHING. If she's needing more support than 30 other kids, that's significant.

[forty-two]

I trend toward black & white thinking, and I've had real trouble - as an adult - trying to find consistent moral reasoning for why not to tattle.  (One of my kids has a habit of tattling on their siblings, so I keep working at it.) 

 

 

Too often the conflict gets framed as "but they're doing wrong" (true) vs "but people hate when you tattle" (also true).  But resolving the tension by declaring that it's better to not make my peers mad at me, even if that means looking the other way when they do wrong - well, that's not exactly building moral fiber, is it?  And it directly contradicts the formal teaching kids get, which is that they should *tell a trusted adult* if bad things are going on, even if it will make their peers mad.  I know what people actually mean is that you should tell the big things, and not tattle about the small things.  But aside from the fact that kids get little actual *guidance* in determining big-v-little (just after-the-fact disapproval when they get it wrong), *why* does "people hate when someone brings wrongdoing to light" apply on little things but not on big things? 

 

As far as I can tell, it's because the little things "don't matter" - so rocking the boat isn't justified - but big things *do* matter, so rocking the boat *is* justified.  And so the key moral distinction seems to be between wrongdoing that doesn't matter (and so isn't "real" wrongdoing), and wrongdoing that *does* matter. 

 

And, yeah, us black & white rule followers have a real problem with the usually unspoken idea of "wrongdoing that doesn't *really* matter".  On the one hand, it matters because there are rules and there is punishment for not following the rules - the powers-that-be really *do* treat it as wrongdoing of some sort.  But on the other hand, our peers all treat it as "acceptable" wrongdoing, and treat tattling as the greater crime.  And the really confusing part is that the powers-that-be *also* often treat tattling as the greater crime, even though *they* are the ones who made the rule.  God forbid you make people uncomfortable by pointing out wrongdoing that isn't *that* important, not important enough to be worth making people uncomfortable, right?  There's absolutely no parallels to the epidemic of people looking the other way when it comes to "little" sexual indiscretions, right?

 

 

Yeah, so I think that "people hate when you tell them they do wrong" - the usual reason given for not tattling - is a crap moral reason for not tattling on the little things.  Plus, the whole idea of "wrongdoing that doesn't *really* matter" that underlies it is a crap moral category.  If "not tattling on the little things" is going to have any legit moral standing, it needs to have a different definition of what makes something morally "little" and why the greater moral good is to let it slide. 

 

 

I don't have nearly as good an answer as I'd like to have, but here's what thoughts I do have (based on Christian ethics, as we're Christian).   First off, too often the goal of tattling is to "get the other person in trouble" instead of a more constructive goal of helping the person turn from their sin or protecting the victims of the wrongdoer.  With my dc, I do talk about directly addressing it with the erring sibling *before* coming to me.  But while this reduces tattling, it doesn't help wrt the social aspect, or how *refraining* from speaking up can also *serve* a legit moral goal. 

 

In our Christian tradition (Lutheran), there's the idea of overlooking less serious mistakes out of love - that we let other people go on being wrong without comment when commenting would cause greater harm than the wrong itself.  This is because concord among people is itself a positive good, and it can't be preserved if every small fault is constantly pointed out.  But at the same time, errors and wrongdoing themselves do harm, and ignoring serious harm in the name of preserving concord is not good, either. 

 

So in b&w thinker terms, the moral duty to oppose evil does *not* mean that we are obligated to *always* speak up whenever *anything* wrong is done.  We are always to do good and oppose evil, but doing good can involve overlooking offenses and suffering the consequences of others' wrongdoing *without* confronting them with it, when the consequences of their sin are small and little good is likely to be done by pointing their wrongdoing out. 

 

 

IDK, as a b&w thinker who is trying to learn nuance but not indifference (imo most people's "solution" for b&w thinking is to introduce a morally neutral "grey" category, where we don't need to care because it just doesn't matter), I think a real problem with b&w thinking is its tendency to elevate principles over people.  But the solution isn't to learn how to elevate people over principles (the usual solution).  Rather, I think it's to realize that principles are supposed to serve *human* good, not some abstract unconnected-to-actual-people good.  The b&w thinker ideal is to serve principles *in order to* serve people.  But it's rather easy to forget that serving principle is just a *means* to the end of serving people, and to equate the two, so that we think that serving principle *is* serving people, which allows us to leave actual people out of the equation in the name of serving them.   I think we b&w thinkers need to realize is that serving people well requires *more* than serving principles.  Justice always matters, but justice isn't the *only* thing that matters, justice isn't the *only* good.  In this fallen world, which is both imperfect and imperfectible (by humans), we can't achieve all the good all the time.  The best we can aim for is *as much good, as much of the time* as we can, knowing it will never be perfect.

 

Which is hard for us b&w thinkers.  I think we b&w thinkers, instead of learning to embrace the moral grey of things that don't matter, need instead to accept that *this isn't a perfect world* and so *there are no perfect solutions*.  That doesn't mean there are times to *abandon* principles by arguing they "don't matter here" - they *always* matter.  Instead, it's a matter of looking to see *all* the goods involved in a given situation - not just focusing on our favored good.  And it's a matter of accepting that in this fallen world we have to balance goods as best as we can, without ever doing evil to achieve them.  And that we aren't going to be able to serve *all* the goods perfectly.  I think the nuance we b&w thinkers need to learn is that there's a *difference* between not perfectly achieving all the goods that ought to be achieved, and actually *doing evil* to achieve good.  Honestly, I think that's the key nuance needed, right there - there's a difference between discerning morally right actions from morally wrong actions, and choosing the best, wisest action from the pool of morally right actions.  AKA, there are usually *multiple* morally right answers, that are good and not evil, and we can acknowledge that *without* denying that there *are* wrong answers, too.

 

 

So with the tattling issue, maybe it's worth thinking about what other goods are involved, in addition to the good of justice, and whatever good the rule in question is meant to promote.  As Christians, if we are the victim, it's a legit upholding of justice to let their sin against us go and not hold it against them (but we can't make that decision on behalf of others who were sinned against).  You can think about the goal of the rule that was broken, and alternatives to telling the teacher that could help uphold that goal; as well, you could think about whether telling the teacher helps or hurts the goal of students respecting and upholding the rule.  There's also the good of building relationships, and whether constantly pointing out everyone's wrong is helping or hindering that.  And there's addressing the issue of whether you have responsibility to point out a given wrong, whether failing to point it out *is* morally wrong, and so you have to do it no matter how unpopular it makes you.  In that case, it might be worth brainstorming ways to point it out that minimize the negative fallout and maximize other goods.  How can you point out others' wrongdoing in ways that are genuinely loving to *them*, not just loving towards the ideals of justice?

 

(And if the classroom rules are *not* serving justice, as honestly it sounds like they maybe aren't, then now could be a time to discuss how not all legal rules match up with the moral law like they ought.  I think people today break rules far too lightly - just because a given rule could be otherwise without being morally wrong, people justify breaking it.  Actually, I think the standard ought to be to *follow* rules, even if they could legitimately be otherwise, and only break rules that themselves break the moral law.  But even so, blind rule-following is *not* a sure-fire path to justice.)

 

 

IDK if any of that helps.  I just really have a thing about the morality, or lack thereof, of the no-tattling culture, even as I *do* think that good is not best served by pointing out each and every thing done wrong.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

"It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

 

Might the child have anxiety and rigid thinking, and might she benefit from evaluation? Absolutely yes, to all of it - but I say that because that's what her mother thought BEFORE placing her in this environment!

 

But adaptation to this environment is no measure of robust mental and emotional health, or flexibility, or even readiness for learning. The other children are just used to it! They've been in chaotic classroom situations with dramatic by-plays, and bizarre and divisive discipline problems, and ineffective academic instruction, for years.

[Innisfree]

I think her rigidity has some to do with right and wrong but a lot more to do with promised rewards that

are constantly never earned. She wants the reward at the end of the week that the teacher wants to give but the classroom behavior always interferes. I’ve promised her rewards on Friday if the class doesn’t earn it. She still gets upset though.

 

 

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I think it's perfectly reasonable for her to be upset over a system that sounds ridiculous, don't get me wrong.

 

The thing is... It's not about whether she's right. She is.

 

It's about whether she can comfortably exist in a world which is always going to be imperfect and unfair. Life in human societies is messy, noisy, unfair as all get-out. Is she having an unusual amount of difficulty coping with that? If so, she may need some extra help. That's all.

 

So, can she accept that yes, the reward is promised; and yes, she earned it; but no, she's not likely to get it because the others didn't? Because this sounds like a repeated pattern. At some point one accepts it and moves on, unless there's a larger problem.

 

This does *not* mean there's a diagnosable issue, just that some instruction about flexibility and expectations might be helpful.

[Innisfree]

I may have missed a reference to how long OP's dd has been in this school. Yes, if she's new to it, adjusting might take a while. Explicit instruction still wouldn't hurt. ;-)

[fralala]

I think her rigidity has some to do with right and wrong but a lot more to do with promised rewards that

are constantly never earned. She wants the reward at the end of the week that the teacher wants to give but the classroom behavior always interferes. I’ve promised her rewards on Friday if the class doesn’t earn it. She still gets upset though.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I really hate the rewards thing and would probably want to do the same thing in your situation, but could this actually be undermining her view of herself as someone who can handle disappointment?

 

I don't think you can counteract the injustice of the system with a consolation prize, but you can acknowledge that this makes her feel crappy and reassure her that this bad situation is not forever, the bad feeling is not forever, and you are there to help her cope with the disappointment/frustration.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't do something special for her on Friday. I would totally make it ice cream sundae night or movie night or mother-daughter time or whatever. Poor kid. But this isn't going to change anything that happened in the classroom. It's just going to give her that bedrock to come home to, where she knows she's in a safe place where love and support are unconditional and you're strong enough to take all her bad feelings and hold them and then help her release them. (And if you're not and you can't, that's normal too; I know I struggle with being strong enough for my anxious kid, and sometimes being strong just means being strong enough to know when it's time to seek outside help.)

 

[Edited for word salad, hopefully somewhat less muddled now.]

Edited February 6, 2018 by fralala

[GoodGrief]

It might be worth exploring the possibility that she is on the spectrum. If she is impacted, there can be techniques and coping strategies she could learn that would ease the transition to the teenage years and adulthood. It can look different in females. Googling "autism in females" will bring up multiple hits, but there's one article: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/autism-it-s-different-in-girls/

 

The truth is that the world is endlessly frustrating for the justice seekers. In my personal experience, one either continues to struggle socially and emotionally, or makes a new inner rule that overlooks the inconsistencies. It always comes back to rules though.

[bethben]

I may have missed a reference to how long OP's dd has been in this school. Yes, if she's new to it, adjusting might take a while. Explicit instruction still wouldn't hurt. ;-)

This is her first year at a full time public school. She was in a one day a week homeschool enrichment program that she absolutely loved. She still compares the behavior of the homeschooled kids to the public school kids. She can’t understand why one set of kids can behave and one set can’t. She never came home upset from the homeschool program. I really thought she could handle full time since she’s so so social.

 

 

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Edited February 6, 2018 by bethben

[forty-two]

Your DD sounds a lot like mine- super focused on the "rules". She used to get very angry any time some did anything (such as accidentally bump her arm) not because of the accident but because the person did not say "sorry". I tried the "do you want to be right, or do you want to have someone to play with?" She chose "right" every time. She was not diagnosed as having autism until she was an adult, but I always suspected.

I heard "Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?" a *lot* as a kid, and put like that, I'd pick being right, because *not* aiming to be right was unthinkable. As an adult, I eventually understood what people were getting at with that rhetorical question, but I still think it sets up a false dichotomy. I think a better way of putting is: Do you want to be *proved* right, or do you want to be happy/have playmates?

 

I think the actual dichotomy isn't between *being* right in reality and being happy, but between trying to make people *acknowledge* you are right versus being happy. It's unthinkable to choose being happy or having playmates over seeking and acting in line with capital-T Truth - the morality of such an action isn't very good at all. But to choose the greater good of building relationships with others versus the lesser good of winning an argument - well, that *is* in line with trying to be a morally good person.

 

As a kid and young adult, I definitely had trouble separating *being* right from trying to win the argument - I felt the moral duty to stand up for truth meant arguing till others agreed with me. And I was unable to judge the relative importance of things - *all* truth equally mattered and was worth defending to the death, every time. (Yes, I was a fun kid to raise ;).) And my parents did a lot to help me learn to accurately see nuances I used to be blind to. But that whole "do you want to be happy or be right" thing was more of a hindrance than a help, because it set up a false dichotomy - confirmed my b&w assumptions that not arguing was the same as not standing for truth, instead of challenging them.

Edited February 6, 2018 by forty-two

[katilac]

Btw, dd is given kudos and personal points for helping manage the classroom per school rules. They encourage and reward children to help other children to behave. 

 

Isn't that helpful? /sarcasm

 

 

Has anyone actually discussed this issue with the teacher?  Like, maybe in a parent teacher conference where your DD talks with the teacher about what she is frustrated about and how being punished for the actions of the other kids makes her feel?  I don't mean some sort of situation where you go in and demand that the teacher change everything she's doing.  I mean something more like you schedule a confrence and bring your DD and have her do the talking.  Something like "Mrs Smith, I try hard to behave in class, but I know that some of the other kids act up a lot.  The thing is, when we lose the class incentive, I feel like it's my fault, even though I didn't do anything wrong, because I can't get them to stop doing it.  Plus, when I try to tell them to stop, they make fun of me."

 

 

I think that's a big, big job for a 10-yr-old. 

 

She's 10? That's pretty spectrum-y. Just saying. You're saying she has behaviors and is upset if things don't go according to plan. Do the other kids in the class have these struggles, or just her?

 

 

 

I don't think that being disappointed at not getting a reward (for crappy reasons) is all that unusual for the age. These stupid rewards are talked up and held in front of them continually, so of course it's hard to not be disappointed. My cousin's little boy is just this age, and when he visited me he got distressed when I gave one of the pets a second treat, because it wasn't fair. I had to hunt down and wake up the other pet to provide the second treat, because he couldn't relax and enjoy himself with that injustice in the world  :lol:

 

(riffing off of a couple of other posts here) I also think that the concept of accepting that the rewards are unfair and just moving on is a fairly mature one, not something I would necessarily expect from a group of 10-yr-olds. I mean, I suffered through four years of mandatory pep rallies in high school, and I was just as vocal about my annoyance and disappointment in senior year as in freshman year, lol. Accepting the things you cannot change is something even adults struggle with, judging by the number of times I see that particular prayer quoted. 

 

Also, what looks like acceptance by some of the kids may be more of a giving up. It's emotionally difficult to hope and be disappointed, hope again and be disappointed, so why not eliminate the stress and misbehave early in the week? John Holt explained in his books that many struggling kids would turn in a test without really trying, just to be done with an anxiety-laden situation. This seems like it could be happening here, and could also explain why it's such a difficult class - not only do they not see a consistent pay-off to behaving well, they are anxious while waiting for the other shoe to drop. So they just throw the shoe, lol. 

 

OP, I didn't realize how in-depth this system was, or the praise your dd receives for speaking up. I was thinking that she just burst out with these things, but apparently she's supposed to say them, and gets praised for it. My ten-year-old self would have viewed not speaking up as me breaking the rules, which would have been pretty stressful. She's not policing others on her own, she is being requested to do so. That's weird and difficult to work with. 

 

I'm not sure what I would do in your place. If the plan is to send her to the other school if she gets in, is it better for her to remain in the system now? Does it affect her chances or placement? Or can she homeschool spring semester and still go to the new school? Four more months is an awfully long time to deal with this situation as is, and I also don't think I'd want my kid to go along to get along in such a negative environment. It's more than an annoying or even bad teacher; the entire system is screwy school-wide. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

double post

 

Edited February 6, 2018 by SparklyUnicorn