Is it wrong to purposefully keep a library book past the due date

[snickelfritz]

and just be willing to pay a fine?

 

I won't be finished with it when a book is due. It's due on a Monday and I'm getting together with a family on Friday to do a unit study. It's one of about 10 copies of the same book in our multi-library system. There are multiple holds on all of them, since Thanksgiving is coming up. I even tried to beat the game by requesting another book a few weeks ago. I'm the next hold, but since they can keep it 2 weeks....it's not going to happen.

 

It's always a juggling act to get the book for a holiday and yet still have it when you need it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I do it all the time. I'm willing to pay the fine. (I do understand though that you are inconveniencing the other people waiting for it and so I do try to hurry up with it.) Is it a long book? Sometimes I will make a copy of the pages I need if it is for example an art book where I only need a few pages of that art project.

[elegantlion]

and just be willing to pay a fine?

 

I won't be finished with it when a book is due. It's due on a Monday and I'm getting together with a family on Friday to do a unit study. It's one of about 10 copies of the same book in our multi-library system. There are multiple holds on all of them, since Thanksgiving is coming up. I even tried to beat the game by requesting another book a few weeks ago. I'm the next hold, but since they can keep it 2 weeks....it's not going to happen.

 

It's always a juggling act to get the book for a holiday and yet still have it when you need it.

 

Can you not renew the book when there is hold on it?

[HRAAB]

Having been on the other end, waiting for holiday books and them not being returned by the due date, I probably wouldn't. But to be honest, probably a bigger motivating factor is that my marriage could be in serious trouble if I incur any more fines.

 

Janet

[KatieJ]

Can you renew it online?? I do that lots of time...but if there is a waiting list they won't let you renew them will they??

 

Ok, I admit that I have kept a book for a few days when it was past due..

[LG Gone Wild]

Normally not a big deal but since you mentioned there are quite of number of people waiting, read it and get it off your mind. Keeping it would be very rude and inconsiderate.

[Deidre in GA]

if it's just for a few more days, like over the weekend, i'd probably do it but not for longer than that. we all know what it's like to be waiting for a book.

[snickelfritz]

"Cranberry Thanksgiving." Actually, ALL of the books are due the day before our unit study and there's a good chance I won't have ANY of them legally the day of. No, you can't renew if there is a hold. Yes, I feel guilty thinking of it...so I guess that's my answer.

 

I requested them early, trying to beat the other holds, and trying to play a game of how long it takes to get them (I even let them set on the hold shelf the maximum amount of time) verses when I needed to have them in my hands for our meeting.

 

What's frustrating is that school teachers get to keep the books 1 month. So, several of the books were tied up weeks ago and are not due back until December.

 

sigh.....

[WTMindy]

If it is a couple of days I would definitely do it. If it closer to a week, then I would not.

[Haiku]

I don't think it's wrong. If you have the book, you have it. It's nice that the library supplies copies of books to people for free, but that doesn't guarantee anyone a book any time they want it. If you're willing to pay the fine for keeping it longer than the due date, no big deal.

 

I was waiting for a book for our Egyptian studies a few weeks ago. I reserved it 10 weeks in advance, but there were multiple holds on all the copies (I guess there's a lot of people reading SOTW in the area!). I'm next on the list to get it, but we finished Egypt two weeks ago. As far as I can figure, everyone kept it past the due date. Oh well. I substituted with another book. First come, first served, I guess. It's a book. It's not going to make or break anyone's holiday or curriculum.

 

FWIW, I worked in a library until very recently. They fired me for keeping books past the due date too many times. :lol:

 

Tara

 

ETA: Can you get a teacher card? At our library, homeschoolers qualify for teacher cards and get to keep books 6 weeks with one renewal allowed. Classroom teachers get to keep books for 9 weeks.

[hsmamainva]

What's frustrating is that school teachers get to keep the books 1 month. So, several of the books were tied up weeks ago and are not due back until December.

 

I wonder if you explained to the library staff that you're a homeschooler, and therefore using certain books for school use, if they would allow you to keep books for a month? Point out the library policy for schoolteachers and explain that you're a schoolteacher, too.

 

It's worth a try, if you haven't already done so.

[T Baer]

and just be willing to pay a fine?

 

I won't be finished with it when a book is due. It's due on a Monday and I'm getting together with a family on Friday to do a unit study. It's one of about 10 copies of the same book in our multi-library system. There are multiple holds on all of them, since Thanksgiving is coming up. I even tried to beat the game by requesting another book a few weeks ago. I'm the next hold, but since they can keep it 2 weeks....it's not going to happen.

 

It's always a juggling act to get the book for a holiday and yet still have it when you need it.

 

I have to now go to the library, pay the fine (we were on vacation when it was due and I couldn't renew it, I even tried calling them long distance) and tell them I can't find it :(

[Deidre in GA]

What's frustrating is that school teachers get to keep the books 1 month. So, several of the books were tied up weeks ago and are not due back until December.

 

sigh.....

 

i successfully lobbied with my library's administration to get homeschool parent's cards educator status. in our system it doesn't affect how long you can keep a book but it does affect quota. regular users top out at 25 books; teachers get 50.

 

you might see if you can get a similar change at your system.

[snickelfritz]

ETA: Can you get a teacher card? At our library, homeschoolers qualify for teacher cards and get to keep books 6 weeks with one renewal allowed. Classroom teachers get to keep books for 9 weeks.

 

 

For many things, 2 weeks is fine. For some things, it's just not enough. It took us a month to finish the "My Father's Dragon" all-in-one trilogy. Luckily, we were able to just renew to get it finished.

 

We have such a huge library system that it's almost wasteful to buy literature/resource books. They usually have it or something that can replace it. I'm trying to figure out how to use the system in an optimal way.

[girligirlmom]

and just be willing to pay a fine?

 

I won't be finished with it when a book is due. It's due on a Monday and I'm getting together with a family on Friday to do a unit study. It's one of about 10 copies of the same book in our multi-library system. There are multiple holds on all of them, since Thanksgiving is coming up. I even tried to beat the game by requesting another book a few weeks ago. I'm the next hold, but since they can keep it 2 weeks....it's not going to happen.

 

It's always a juggling act to get the book for a holiday and yet still have it when you need it.

I figured it was Cranberry Thanksgiving! We own that one. Thanks for the reminder about doing it soon, are you doing FIAR?

 

In my library, it would cost $0.40 to keep a book four days past the due date. I have heard of libraries where the fine is $1 per book per day, and this is usually for books that have been reserved/requested by others. It seems that people with higher fees are more likely to get the books back on time, especially when the fees can quickly add up to the cost of the book!

 

I can't say it's the right thing to do, but I have kept videos a day late so we could watch one or just because dh was away and one of the kids was really sick on return day and I decided it was worth paying the fine.

Edited November 7, 2008 by girligirlmom

[JFSinIL]

It is kinda cheating, BUT....I used to once in a blue moon check out a book then reserve it under a kids card - so I had to return it but then my kid was next to check it out. With four kids with library cards.....

 

But if I needed a book for that long I usually bought my own copy.

[Harriet Vane]

I think it's okay. Consider the fine a rental fee, and return them after co-op.

[snickelfritz]

It almost seems like an archaic amount to charge 5 cents. THAT'S why a book on hold takes forever to make its way down the list. It's not a big deal to keep it until finished.

 

And my girls DO each have a library card. THAT'S what I'll use for my Christmas reserves.

[sassenach]

I would keep them. I've done it before. If you return them, you're going to have to scrap all of your plans. It never even occurs to me to feel guilty about things that others feel bad about. I wonder what that says about me? :001_huh:

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

rI think some of you must live in my city. :glare:

 

We have an awesome inter-library system, but you still can't get anything in a timely manner because people like to keep the books as long as they want. I scrimp and save elsewhere in my budget so that I can just buy the materials I need, because this type of rule-flaunting makes library-based homeschooling impractical for me.

 

I am astounded at the selfishness and entitlement expressed in some of these replies. These are not oppressive rules from an evil government. It is a reasonable system, so why not follow it? There are more people in the world than just yourselves.

 

When your library books are due, you can use it as a "teachable moment!" Teach your kids to be ethical. Take the book back when you said you would.

 

:001_huh:

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

{NOTE: In this post I use the term "you" in the generic sense, it doesn't refer to any particular previous post. I just find it awkward to write and constantly say "one" instead.}

 

Wow, I am admittedly a bit surprised by some of the responses here.

 

Sure, I've inadvertently kept some library materials past the due date or paid for a day or two just so I could finish the book. But I have never deliberately checked a book out with no intent to return it by the due date.

 

Libraries function as a social compact between the residents of a community. If you borrow a book return it much as you would return your neighbors tools after borrowing them. The book isn't your property it belongs to the community as a whole. Eventually there is a line crossed where you should just purchase the book.

 

Libraries depend on the courtesy of their patrons and trust that they, the patrons, will treat each other with the respect that wish to be accorded by others. Once this system breaks down it can be irreparable. Anyone looking for the return of chain libraries, closed stacks, reduced collection size due to over borrowing, or just plain no books leaving the building?

 

As a case in point, I recently approached a local school librarian (in our overseas community) to request access and privileges for our homeschool. I was told this may be difficult as the last homeschooling family granted such access packed all the books they borrowed when they moved and never contacted the school again.

 

I suppose it is not technically illegal to be willing to pay your fees in the end, it is a moral issue that you must wrestle with alone. Other residents of your community may have a need for that item as much as you do. The library staff will be fielding emails and phone calls from the other patrons about the availability date (some of which is not always kind or considerate). I guess this type of behaviour is entirely dependent on your moral code and how you view your participation in a community and its social compact.

[Tammyla]

That's a low fine, we pay 25 cents per day and that adds up. I'd have no problem paying a nickle a day, but I'd finish as quickly as possible. ;)

 

It almost seems like an archaic amount to charge 5 cents. THAT'S why a book on hold takes forever to make its way down the list. It's not a big deal to keep it until finished.

 

And my girls DO each have a library card. THAT'S what I'll use for my Christmas reserves.

[melissel]

Wow, I'm surprised at some of the responses too. She's not talking about keeping the book for all eternity, never to return to the library again. She's talking about keeping it for a few extra days. If libraries didn't expect patrons to need to keep books beyond their due dates for any reason, they wouldn't levy fines. They'd bar the "guilty" parties from taking out books. I don't view this much differently from not returning books on time because I can't locate them right away. Should we berate people who return books late because they didn't keep better track of them, and because they chose not to look for them until it was convenient for them to look?

 

I agree that it's a social compact, but there's no rule in the compact that says that a book MUST be available when you need it. I'd argue that if someone else needs it that badly and multiple copies are all in use, then they could buy it as well. I often can't get books I'd like around the holidays. I'm not bothered by it. My library card grants me no right to the exact books I need exactly when I need them.

 

I'd keep it and finish with it as well, and then return it right away, and I wouldn't feel guilty at all.

[melissel]

I would keep them. I've done it before. If you return them, you're going to have to scrap all of your plans. It never even occurs to me to feel guilty about things that others feel bad about. I wonder what that says about me? :001_huh:

 

:lol: I often feel the same way here. You and I must be in the same sinking moral ship.

[pqr]

:lol: I often feel the same way here. You and I must be in the same sinking moral ship.

 

Sometimes I am fairly simple in my views.

 

When I check a book out of the library, I am also stating that I understand that there is a return date, and that I will do my utmost to adhere to that date. Deliberate failure to do so would, in essence, be going back on my word. This is a moral question; it revolves around a sense of honour and ability to be honest with both oneself and the lending institution.

 

If one really were to examine the issue in further depth, I could argue that deliberately keeping a book past its due date is also theft. You are stealing somebody else's opportunity to read that book and gain the information contained therein. It is also greedy, in that the borrower has determined that retaining the book is more important than the expectations of other individuals.

 

The library has an expectation that a borrower will be honest, failure to be so damages all of us. Eventually fees go up, libraries decide not to lend books and we all lose.

 

This is not to say that occasionally some of us inadvertently go past the due date, but it must be a question of intent. Was it an honest mistake or was it a willful and deliberate violation of an agreed upon transaction? If the latter, then let down the lifeboats because the ship is sinking.

Edited November 7, 2008 by pqr

[Chelle in MO]

I'd return the book on the day it was due. I would want others to do the same for me.

 

Chelle

[stacim]

Wow! I guess I should consider myself lucky. We can check out up to 100 items (with limits on DVDs and some other materials) at a time. We can check books out for up to 8 weeks as long as there are no holds, and they have recently added a 6-day grace period for books. As long as the item is returned within the 6 days the fine is waived.

 

Sorry, that is more info than you requested, but after all the posts about policies, I just gained a new appreciation for ours.

 

As for the question, I would be okay with keeping the book in this instance until after your meeting and pay the fine. I try not to do it habitually, but have on occasion.

 

~Staci

[~Tara~]

Ooo I like JFS' idea ;) (why didn't I think of that??)

 

Sorry, but I don't hesitate to keep a book past its due date if I'm not done with it. I just pay the fine. I think even more so in a situation as this...I too have a hard time getting what I need from our library and have to play a game of sorts to get things when I need them. If one ACTUALLY came in EARLIER than anticipated...you better believe I'd hang onto that puppy until I was done with it. I just don't care. Yes, someone may do that to me someday as well, and that's fine. I wouldn't really know about it anyway now would I? ;)

[EKS]

I do stuff like that all the time. I consider it a donation to the library!

[Wendy in WI]

Can you ask around to see if you can borrow it from a friend?

 

I am spoiled because we have a large homeschool group here (200 plus families) with a very active email chain. If I have ever needed a book I couldn't get from the library, I just asked via email and had it within a day or so.

 

Wendy

[melissel]

Sometimes I am fairly simple in my views.

 

When I check a book out of the library, I am also stating that I understand that there is a return date, and that I will do my utmost to adhere to that date. Deliberate failure to do so would, in essence, be going back on my word. This is a moral question; it revolves around a sense of honour and ability to be honest with both oneself and the lending institution.

 

If one really were to examine the issue in further depth, I could argue that deliberately keeping a book past its due date is also theft. You are stealing somebody else's opportunity to read that book and gain the information contained therein. It is also greedy, in that the borrower has determined that retaining the book is more important than the expectations of other individuals.

 

The library has an expectation that a borrower will be honest, failure to be so damages all of us. Eventually fees go up, libraries decide not to lend books and we all lose.

 

This is not to say that occasionally some of us inadvertently go past the due date, but it must be a question of intent. Was it an honest mistake or was it a willful and deliberate violation of an agreed upon transaction? If the latter, then let down the lifeboats because the ship is sinking.

 

I'm sorry, I respect that this is your view, but I think this is a gigantic stretch. I admire that you can manage to return all your books by their due dates though. It must save you a ton of money!

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Clearly I am in the minority. Libraries are great, I love them, support them, have volunteered at them, even have my graduate degree in Librarianship and have worked as a paid professional before my homeschooling days, so perhaps I am biased. Maybe I was just raised in a different part of the country, in a different time, but the day they handed me my first book from my elementary school library, the day I was old enough to borrow my first book in my own name from the public library I understood the meaning of due dates. Yes, people forget, make mistakes, have a flat tire and don't make it on time, etc. It happens and it is ok-we are, after all, only human.

 

What is being discussed here is a deliberate, planned attempt to violate the user agreement at the library. Just that simple. If your local library doesn't include homeschoolers in its educator loan policies I advocate lobbying them to change this policy, sign up for Library Elf, see if your library has a similar reminder system, a vacation policy, something but for goodness sake respect the other patrons. When did we become such a nation of me and my needs first when dealing with public property?

 

You do actually have an agreement with the library for the use of the materials. Some examples of what the abuses of library patronage lead to are below. After reading these items, I ask you at what point does the moral imperative to abide by your legal and ethical contract with the library kick in? The minute you forget the due date, the moment you deliberately and willfully ignore the policy or only once it actually violates a legal code?

 

Overdue library books could mean jail time

November 19, 2004

BAY CITY, Mich. (AP) -- Keeping library books too long could soon land some readers in jail.

 

Frustrated librarians want the worst offenders to face criminal charges and up to 90 days behind bars.

"We want to go after some of the people who owe us a lot of money," said Frederick J. Paffhausen, the library's system director. "We want to set an example."

Paffhausen, who took over as director in October, is asking the Bay County Library Board for permission to seek arrest warrants for offenders who ignore repeated notices. The board plans to consider the crackdown next month.

One patron from Bad Axe owes $1,190 for 73 items -- mainly science-fiction books -- hoarded for more than a year, Paffhausen said.

Patrons keep an average of $25,000 in overdue materials out of the library system each year, officials said.

That costs taxpayers money, because the library often must buy copies to replace unreturned materials, leaving less for new books, CDs and DVDs, Paffhausen said.

Currently, the library cuts off an offending patron's privileges and sends overdue notices. Daily fines of 5 to 10 cents per item are assessed. If the material is worth $75 or more, the patron receives a form letter from the prosecutor's office warning that it's a crime to keep library items.

© Copyright 2004 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

 

 

 

 

LIVERMORE PUBLIC LIBRARY DELINQUENT MATERIALS POLICY

 

The daily fine assessment is a penalty for causing items to be unavailable to other patrons of the Library and for failure to abide by the rules and regulations of the Library as agreed to when obtaining a borrower's card.

 

Education Code Section 19911 of the California Education Code states:

"Any person who willfully detains any book, newspaper, magazine, pamphlet, manuscript or other property belonging to any public or incorporated library, reading room, museum or other educational institution for 30 days after notice in writing to return the article or property, given after the expiration of the time for which the rules of the institution the article or property may be kept, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

 

The parent or guardian of a minor who willfully and maliciously commits an act within the scope of this section shall be liable for all damages so caused by the minor."

 

In instances when the assessment of fines has proved ineffective, the Livermore Public

Library will institute more drastic measures to insure the return of its materials. These measures will include the procedures as outlined in the following pages and may incorporate the utilization of a collection agency.

 

Approved November 16, 1989

Livermore Public Library Board of Trustees

Revised November, 1994

Revised May, 2002

Revised April, 2005, Effective June 2005

Revised August 2005

[Spy Car]

Sometimes I am fairly simple in my views.

 

When I check a book out of the library, I am also stating that I understand that there is a return date, and that I will do my utmost to adhere to that date. Deliberate failure to do so would, in essence, be going back on my word. This is a moral question; it revolves around a sense of honour and ability to be honest with both oneself and the lending institution.

 

If one really were to examine the issue in further depth, I could argue that deliberately keeping a book past its due date is also theft. You are stealing somebody else's opportunity to read that book and gain the information contained therein. It is also greedy, in that the borrower has determined that retaining the book is more important than the expectations of other individuals.

 

The library has an expectation that a borrower will be honest, failure to be so damages all of us. Eventually fees go up, libraries decide not to lend books and we all lose.

 

This is not to say that occasionally some of us inadvertently go past the due date, but it must be a question of intent. Was it an honest mistake or was it a willful and deliberate violation of an agreed upon transaction? If the latter, then let down the lifeboats because the ship is sinking.

 

This is a pretty decent summary of my expectations for *myself*.

 

I'd go nuts worrying what other people (exempting the little man I'm raising) are going to do, but I feel an obligation to get my books back on time.

 

I did accidently run up a late charge this year when the library system switched from 3 weeks to 2. I knew they had, but my "internal clock" was off, and I spoiled a virtually perfect record. But beyond paying the tiny fine, I did have to go through my own form of mental "contrition" for not meeting my own expectations.

 

This reminds me...we have videos due back today :D

 

Bill (who's not fond of wearing hair-shirts :tongue_smilie: )

[pqr]

I am going to make an assumption here. I will assume that most of us home school for many reasons, but that there is a common thread in that we want our children to grow up to be, among other things, honest, responsible, accountable, caring of others and honourable.

 

If I am correct in the above would someone please explain to me how deliberately violating a contract with a library teaches our children any of the above. It would seem to me that such behavior teaches our children the exact opposite.

[lovemyboys]

i successfully lobbied with my library's administration to get homeschool parent's cards educator status. in our system it doesn't affect how long you can keep a book but it does affect quota. regular users top out at 25 books; teachers get 50.

 

you might see if you can get a similar change at your system.

 

Hmm, I never realized there was a difference.

 

Agree with others that an extra day or two would be ok, especially since you're specifically keeping the extra day to do your unit study/school.

 

 

But....did you see the item about the young woman who ignored several overdue notices on 2 books from the library, and the notice about the warrant, and was then arrested with that warrant? Whoops, pretty high price for two paperback novels! :001_huh:

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

 

But....did you see the item about the young woman who ignored several overdue notices on 2 books from the library, and the notice about the warrant, and was then arrested with that warrant? Whoops, pretty high price for two paperback novels! :001_huh:

 

 

A classic example of the fact that library policy is not just a social compact but also a legal obligation.

[chiguirre]

Since Cranberry Thanksgiving is OOP, you could make a copy for your own use. But, I honestly wouldn't feel guilty keeping it to use with your group. It's not your fault you couldn't get the library dates to line up with your coop commitment, you gave it a good try. I'd pay the fine and chalk it up to the cost of using a popular curriculum's holiday unit :D.

[Tracey in TX]

The library system is for all to use. If someone opts to return a book late and are willing to pay a fine, then we should let it alone. I wouldn't think twice about returning a book late for a teaching purpose. (Our fines are $5/book whether it's one day or six months late.) Late fees are used to provide an incentive to return in a timely fashion, but aren't so stiff to require this.

[stripe]

I try very hard to return my books on time, particularly when someone else wants it. My library system is great in that the check out period for a book is 4 weeks, there is no limit on the number of items we can check out at one time, we can check our records online, and we can renew without limits as long as no one else wants it.

 

That being said, I have not returned things to the library on their due date a few times because, for example, I am not willing to go out in a storm with sick kids to return it; I return it the next day and pay my fine -- it's the best I can do. I don't consider not bringing your books back on time by a day or two to be a major sin. The fines are not designed to be the sole source of income for a library; they are something designed to psychologically discourage late returns (the small monetary "penalty"). There are some offenses which are noted in patrons' library records that may affect their ability to check out materials, such as unpaid large fines, or a consistent lack of returns (=stealing items). As soon as you pay, the notes about small overdue fines are removed from your library record. You are not marked as a criminal. In my library system you can check out materials as long as your overdue balance is less than $5. Further, in many library systems, there are amnesty days (where fines are erased) and usually the library will negotiate with patrons when they have large fines or other problems -- because the point of the library is to enable people to access materials. This is the contract. Small problems are excusable.

 

I read a piece about the difference between a social contract and a monetary one in a piece about a preschool, where the parents felt a social compulsion to pick up their kids on time and so usually did so. The preschool decided to try to "get" parents to pick up their kids on time by charging $5 for late pick-ups. Then the late-pick-up rate increased. Why? Because it stopped being a social contract and became a monetary one. In other words, $5 is the charge for the preschool to watch the kids for late, rather than lateness being an offensive act, that breached the trust between the preschool employees and parents. The preschool tried to go back, but alas, the damage was done. Parents had stopped seeing their relationship with the preschool as a social one.

 

I don't know what to tell you about your particular situation, but I would recommend that you, and everyone who agrees with you, urge your library to purchase more copies of certain popular books that are always checked out (obviously does not apply to out of print items, unfortunately). I also think you should rally the library system to increase check-out times and otherwise loosen regulations. You are citizens who are eager to use the library. I am glad that my library system has maximized its efforts to unite people with the library material they need, which as far as I am concerned is THE mission of a library, albeit one that some library systems purposely attempt to curtail. I think you should express your love of the library and desire to use its resources more often. If that means expanded privileges for teachers and homeschoolers, then try to get that, but I think all users should be getting more out of their library system than the stringent borrowing policies that these systems seem to use.

[mcconnellboys]

Our librarians here have told us to just keep a book until we're finished with it any time this happens. We do have to pay the fine.

[Plaid Dad]

I treat library materials the way I want other people to treat them, and that includes returning them on time.

[jojomojo]

When we asked our library about renewing a book, they told us they don't do that, just keep the book as long as you need it and pay a fine. That's why they give you a $2 coupon off library fees when you return your books in their "smart sort" (automated check in). We now have a ton of those coupons piling up.

 

I'd probably keep the book and just return it as soon as I was done.

[eve]

Hmmm... if you can't renew it, then since you probably would want other people to return it on time, maybe you should do that. Instead of paying the fine, maybe you could find the book and buy it your self online.

[Guest sarathan]

rI think some of you must live in my city. :glare:

 

We have an awesome inter-library system, but you still can't get anything in a timely manner because people like to keep the books as long as they want. I scrimp and save elsewhere in my budget so that I can just buy the materials I need, because this type of rule-flaunting makes library-based homeschooling impractical for me.

 

I am astounded at the selfishness and entitlement expressed in some of these replies. These are not oppressive rules from an evil government. It is a reasonable system, so why not follow it? There are more people in the world than just yourselves.

 

When your library books are due, you can use it as a "teachable moment!" Teach your kids to be ethical. Take the book back when you said you would.

 

:001_huh:

 

:iagree: How can people think this is okay?? Especially if you know there are people waiting for the book. That's just downright rude and selfish, IMO. Granted, it's not the worst thing in the world, but sometimes it's the little things that count in life. :)

[Storm Bay]

I try to get library books back on time. We're allowed to renew something only once, but not if there's a hold. However, we get most books for 4 wees!

 

While a couple of times I have kept a book over & willingly paid the fine, I try never to do that if there is a hold on a book. It's too easy to think of me first, but I think it's important to think about others who've been waiting. It is a contract, and I try to get things read and back on time. We order so many books for history, etc, I have a huge bag in their back room just for our family's holds.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I am going to make an assumption here. I will assume that most of us home school for many reasons, but that there is a common thread in that we want our children to grow up to be, among other things, honest, responsible, accountable, caring of others and honourable.

 

If I am correct in the above would someone please explain to me how deliberately violating a contract with a library teaches our children any of the above. It would seem to me that such behavior teaches our children the exact opposite.

 

I would imagine that it teaches the child that if one misses a deadline, one pays the penalty for doing so. I figure that's a pretty good life lesson.

 

The contract that I have with the library states that if I miss their deadline, I pay a fine. To pay the fine is, I think, keeping the contract rather than violating it. To keep the books forever or to avoid the fine is violating the contract.

 

If others are specifically waiting, then I think keeping a book a few more days probably enters into the arena of honorable vs. dishonorable behavior. But otherwise, I think it's a stretch to say that in this gray area of library borrowing and fine schedules basic honesty and honor are on the line.

 

It always surprises me that while in my experience, the majority of librarians that I've paid fines to have been nonchalant or actually pleased with my regular "contributions" rather than annoyed with my tardiness, every time we have a "library lateness" thread, there are those who are horrified by the idea of overdue books. I just can't muster that much concern about it.

 

My husband returns all library books nowadays, so alas, the library is supported only with our tax dollars. :001_smile:

 

It's funny, because I'm such a nut about being honest and careful about the "little things" in life, as I do believe that a good, moral life is made up of many small good, moral choices. But library book late fees just don't signify on my radar as a morally good or bad choice. Stealing or defacing without reimbursement, yes. Paying late fees to the library, not so much.

[pqr]

I would imagine that it teaches the child that if one misses a deadline, one pays the penalty for doing so. I figure that's a pretty good life lesson.

 

No.... what it is teaching them is that if you have a little money the rules do not apply to you. While this may be a lesson, and may even be important to know, it certainly is not something that I would raise my son to live by.

 

When you sign for a book, you acknowledge the due date. To deliberately plan to not return that book on said date is a violation of a trust. You can spin it anyway you like but the fact remains that you are asked to return the book on a certain day and if you knowingly plan not to do this you violated a trust. To me this is a moral issue.

 

If you honestly forget, the kids are ill or something else to that effect that is fine and you must pay a penalty, but willful deliberate and planned missing a due date is something else.

 

You are correct life is made of "many small good moral choices," I would argue that this is one of them.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

 

The contract that I have with the library states that if I miss their deadline, I pay a fine. To pay the fine is, I think, keeping the contract rather than violating it.

 

It always surprises me that while in my experience, the majority of librarians that I've paid fines to have been nonchalant or actually pleased with my regular "contributions" rather than annoyed with my tardiness, every time we have a "library lateness" thread, there are those who are horrified by the idea of overdue books. I just can't muster that much concern about it.

 

It's funny, because I'm such a nut about being honest and careful about the "little things" in life, as I do believe that a good, moral life is made up of many small good, moral choices. But library book late fees just don't signify on my radar as a morally good or bad choice. Stealing or defacing without reimbursement, yes. Paying late fees to the library, not so much.

 

Paying the fine isn't keeping the contract it is submitting to the punishment for breaking the contract. The librarians are probably pleased that you have actually returned the books and are voluntarily paying the fine so that they won't have to spend hours hunting you down and sending notices.

 

Checking out a book with no intention of returning it by its due date is (IMHO) a morally bad choice. Compared to many other poor choices we could make as a citizen of our community is it the worst crime, no, but it is still wrong.

 

How can people think this is okay?? Especially if you know there are people waiting for the book. That's just downright rude and selfish, IMO. Granted, it's not the worst thing in the world, but sometimes it's the little things that count in life.

 

Sarathan is exactly right. It is selfish. I means that what you are teaching and practicing is that your needs are more important than those of other community members simply because they are your needs. This selfishness is something that always surprises me, on the surface it is a violation of good manners but yet if you look deeper it is so much more. In a small way, over this one issue, the fabric of our society begins to tear and how far is the leap from this to other more important issues?

[Blessedfamily]

So many ways to look at turning in a library book late. I guess it would be inconsiderate to do it deliberately when someone is waiting.