A church just dropped about 20 teens in my neighborhood

[Barb_]

I was under the impression e(E)vangelical Christian is a more encompassing term than just being an evangelist. Shrug. But what do I know. I only know we never use that term to describe ourself or our activity.

It doesn't matter which word you use to describe it. If I draw a beautiful picture on someone's fence, it is still objectively vandalism, even if I call it art. If I take my neighbor's bike without permission, even if I intend to return it, I may call it borrowing, but my neighbor is right to accuse me of stealing. Callng an objectively defined term by a different name doesn't change the definition of that term.

[EmseB]

Being evangelical can be in regards to anything.

 

Evangelical (capital E) in the United States describes a particular brand of Christian, which I would say that JW's do not fall into because of vast theological differences.

 

I lost the bubble on what was originally stated in the thread to cause this line of discussion, but evangelizing is definitely something JW's do, but they wouldn't fall under the umbrella of 'Merican Evangelical.

[Barb_]

Exactly. It is disingenuous to claim otherwise.

[Greta]

In my time as a JW, I heard it referred to as preaching work, door to door work, field service, field ministry, and pioneering. I never - not once in all those years - heard anyone refer to it as evangelizing or evangelism. I believe that Scarlett was being sincere when she said she did not know the definition, and that the word is not used in her faith community.

[EmseB]

In general, I have only gotten JW's soliciting my front door.  I've never seen a chick tract in my life, and only know of them from this board. We don't get youth groups or many sales people, aside from the random energy co-op solicitors.

 

I learned from a JW on another message board that if I politely take their literature and say I'm not interested, they still mark me/my house down as one they should revisit because I took the paper.  There was no understanding (or perhaps feigned ignorance) that I would be "just being polite" by taking the Watchtower.  The next time they came to my door, I remembered reading this, and realized that while the ladies that came to visit my house were very courteous verbally, they were actually pretty forceful about getting me to take literature. Once I realized this, it seemed very similar to the people who stand on the sidewalks in Vegas passing out the cards for escort services.  They simply shove things toward you and expect you will grab it out of reflex or politeness.

 

I think disingenuous is a very apt word for my experience with JWs. My experience in different towns and having different JWs come to my door over the year is that there is a feeling that they take advantage of people who don't want to be direct or rude.  Or JWs don't know/pretend not to notice social cues that indicate disinterest.  If they didn't want me to come back, they would just say so.  If they didn't want to hear from me again, they wouldn't have taken the magazine. If they didn't have time to talk, they wouldn't have opened the door. If they were pleasant to me, that must mean I should come back.

 

And there are a lot of people out there like me who don't enjoy telling a person to their face to leave my property and don't come back.  Obviously JWs aren't threatening. Obviously they are just nice, friendly people, so I must not need to kick them out/off my property.  Surely I can just politely say I'm not interested and they will know what I mean. Surely they can see my kids are running amuck. Surely they notice every time they ring my bell the dog goes crazy. But once I realized the above line of thinking, I had much less trouble being very direct.  I was not mean, but I just told them, "Do not come back to my house. I am not interested in talking with you. No, I do not want your literature."  I feel like with many, many other people I would not have had to say something that directly because of social cues and norms. And can you believe I felt bad saying it?

[Tanaqui]

Obviously JWs aren't threatening. Obviously they are just nice, friendly people, so I must not need to kick them out/off my property.

 

I know you don't mean that literally, but I'm just going to spell something out for everybody else.

 

For some of us, when we see a nicely dressed stranger at the door, we don't think "Oh, it's a Christian/salesman, I can ignore them" - we think "Holy sh**, is that ACS? Is it the cops? I better deal with this!"

 

So we can't just hide in our back bedroom and hope they go away. If they are official, we have to handle that.

 

And you might think in retrospect "Well, it turned out to be nothing, so you can calm down", but them knocking on the door still sends anxiety coursing through you from the start. (And this is assuming you're not afflicted with moderate to high levels of social anxiety all the time.)

 

And for the record, our family has had to deal with bullsh** ACS visits before. They're always stressful.

 

(Well. One of them would've been well-founded if it had been true. The darling kid is the one who started the story that we beat her. Boy, was she surprised at the chaos this caused! She never made that mistake again! The whole thing was so ridiculous in retrospect, but at the time, it was scary.)

[KarenC]

Sounds good.

 

Unfortunately, I live in a fortress. This is an old stone church we converted. Poured concrete walls covered in river walk. In good weather I can keep the window open, but in bad weather, yikes...we can't hear anything outside!!

Totally OT, but that sounds like a really cool house!

[fairfarmhand]

We never did that and don't believe that way.

 

Good. Because I know too many people who are/were.

 

It annoys the crap out of me.

[Audrey]

I know you don't mean that literally, but I'm just going to spell something out for everybody else.

 

For some of us, when we see a nicely dressed stranger at the door, we don't think "Oh, it's a Christian/salesman, I can ignore them" - we think "Holy sh**, is that ACS? Is it the cops? I better deal with this!"

 

So we can't just hide in our back bedroom and hope they go away. If they are official, we have to handle that.

 

And you might think in retrospect "Well, it turned out to be nothing, so you can calm down", but them knocking on the door still sends anxiety coursing through you from the start. (And this is assuming you're not afflicted with moderate to high levels of social anxiety all the time.)

 

And for the record, our family has had to deal with bullsh** ACS visits before. They're always stressful.

 

(Well. One of them would've been well-founded if it had been true. The darling kid is the one who started the story that we beat her. Boy, was she surprised at the chaos this caused! She never made that mistake again! The whole thing was so ridiculous in retrospect, but at the time, it was scary.)

 

 

There is that.  It's too bad that they can take advantage of a situation like that to get a door opened.  I'm sorry you have to deal with that.

 

I don't know what anyone should do.  I guess it's up to the individual.  I don't get all pissy at them because I think it doesn't do any good.  But then, I don't get very many out here.  We don't live in town -- where I hear it's more common -- so maybe we're just not worth the trip.  We used to have a very large farm dog who did a good job of running off anyone who wasn't a regular.  He wasn't vicious or anything, but he was huge and would run down the lane to greet anything coming that way.  It was an intimidating presence, for sure!  Our own fluffy hell hound.  Lol! 

 

At any rate, while I am offended on a personal level by anyone attempting to spread their religion to me (any religion), I just don't feel it's worth my time to show them anything but a firm "no thanks" and my closed door.   I've heard very humourous stories of people doing bizarre things to try to frighten or shock off proselytizers, but I think those are more bragging and urban legend than anything else.  And, I think it's counter-productive, too.  It just gives them more fuel for their religious fires.  It confirms all the horrible things they spread about non-religious (or not the right kind of religious) people. 

[Barb_]

In my time as a JW, I heard it referred to as preaching work, door to door work, field service, field ministry, and pioneering. I never - not once in all those years - heard anyone refer to it as evangelizing or evangelism. I believe that Scarlett was being sincere when she said she did not know the definition, and that the word is not used in her faith community.

Ok, I will give scarlet and all JWs the benefit of the doubt on that point, but now that the term has been defined, there is no way to claim that field service, pioneering, door to door work, etc isn't evangelism. It seems that the faith is bending over backwards to avoid using the word and I can't imagine why? When the targets of preaching work or whatever object to being evangelized and are told that really it's ok because the intent is simply to offer comfort or to offer ministry, or whatever--well that is psychologically unfair. There are two people in the exchange and the one standing on my porch doesn't have the right to set the terms.

[Word Nerd]

The chick track thing is new to me too. Yikes.

I've confiscated them from the kids' trick-or-treat bags a couple of times and saw (and was greatly disturbed by) a few when I was a teen that had been left in public places, but no one has ever left one at the door or given me one in person.

[Tanaqui]

Ok, I will give scarlet and all JWs the benefit of the doubt on that point, but now that the term has been defined, there is no way to claim that field service, pioneering, door to door work, etc isn't evangelism. It seems that the faith is bending over backwards to avoid using the word and I can't imagine why? When the targets of preaching work or whatever object to being evangelized and are told that really it's ok because the intent is simply to offer comfort or to offer ministry, or whatever--well that is psychologically unfair. There are two people in the exchange and the one standing on my porch doesn't have the right to set the terms.

 

My understanding is that JWs have a specialized vocabulary in general, and use alternate terms for many concepts related to their religion rather than the ones most people would use for those same concepts.

 

They're not the only religious group to do this, and certainly not the only Christians to do so.

 

[Tangerine]

We had a rash of anti-abortion Chick tracks in the baby changers at Starbucks when I worked there.  It always seemed an odd target for that particular topic.

[Greta]

Ok, I will give scarlet and all JWs the benefit of the doubt on that point, but now that the term has been defined, there is no way to claim that field service, pioneering, door to door work, etc isn't evangelism. It seems that the faith is bending over backwards to avoid using the word and I can't imagine why? When the targets of preaching work or whatever object to being evangelized and are told that really it's ok because the intent is simply to offer comfort or to offer ministry, or whatever--well that is psychologically unfair. There are two people in the exchange and the one standing on my porch doesn't have the right to set the terms.

I agree with you! It definitely is evangelism, and the objective is absolutely to convert people. JW meetings include reports about how many were brought into the faith by the preaching work in a given recent time period, and there's no doubt that is precisely the goal. I really only intended to defend that one particular narrow point regarding word use.

 

I'm not sure that they are bending over backwards to avoid that particular word, they make it a habit to avoid standard Christian words, images, and holidays generally. Their buildings are called Kingdom Halls instead of churches. They observe the "memorial" rather than the Lord's supper / communion. They say Jehovah instead of God. Things like that. Hmm, maybe you're right and they are deliberately avoiding the word evangelical! I'd thought before about how their own "in group" vocabulary separates them from other Christians so I suppose that could certainly be part of it.

 

ETA: I didn't see that Tanaqui had already covered this!

Edited May 15, 2017 by Greta

[Barb_]

My understanding is that JWs have a specialized vocabulary in general, and use alternate terms for many concepts related to their religion rather than the ones most people would use for those same concepts.

 

They're not the only religious group to do this, and certainly not the only Christians to do so.

Why is this? And furthermore, why object to agreeing on those terms once they are defined?

 

ETA: Not to be belligerent, but word are important. Denying the object of an action the ability to define their objection moves the goalposts.

 

"I don't like evangelism,"

 

"I don't evangelize"

 

"You are on my porch trying to sell me religion, here is a dictionary."

 

"Well I don't call it that. I call it comfort, so it's ok. Here, have some comfort and this pamphlet."

Edited May 15, 2017 by Barb_

[Xahm]

We have very, very frequent JW in our neighborhood. The Mormans have come just once(the novelty made me happy, and the girls were very nice), and just before Easter a Baptist group follows the JWs around, inviting people to an Easter service as competition to the "Not an Easter Service" (whatever it is called) that the JW's really push.

It got really bad for a time because my husband, a nice guy who doesn't realize how often they came when he was gone, would talk in a friendly fashion to them, answering the questions they asked. So they started sending pairs of men to my house to talk to him, during the time when he was working about 80 hours many weeks. Rarely did they catch him, but they just kept coming at odd hours, hoping to. One day I was trying to wrangle a newborn and a one year old into the car in our garage, my back to the open garage door, not far post-partum, when I suddenly realized that I was being approached from behind. I don't remember what I said to them, something along the lines of "Don't come back, we are not and will not be interested," but I don't think it mattered. The terror in my face replaced by anger seemed to have conveyed the message clearly. We never saw those men again.

At least once a month we still get pairs of women, though. And if we smile too encouragingly or the kids get to the door and start talking, they come more frequently. I guess I need to be more blunt.

If these were my actual neighbors, I wouldn't mind. If I've had conversations with people about other things, I love talking about religion, too. I just don't like "conversations" where they are leading me to say one of the phrases that will allow them to give one of their canned responses. 

[eternalsummer]

It is good to hear all of this. I sometimes forget not everyone on this board is a friend. Which is fine of course. Not everyone in every circle is going to be a friend.

 

 

That is such a weird statement!  Not wanting people to come to your door and promote their religion (or their MLM scheme, or a million other things) doesn't mean someone is not interested in being your friend.  They just don't want to interact with you on these specific terms (religious ones).  Can you only be friends with people who are JW or potential converts?

[Barb_]

Sorry, I've made my point. I'll shut up and go make dinner now. You guys have a good night.

[Greta]

Why is this?

Separation is a form of both thought- and behavior-control. JW's are not allowed to develop friendships with non-JW's. They are not allowed to step foot inside a church or other religious building for any reason ever, no exceptions. (My mom wouldn't go to her own sister's funeral, for example.). They can't read materials written by other Christians or listen to Christian music. Having their own distinctive vocabulary contributes to the overall feeling of being part of a special group that's distinct from the masses who are all going to be slaughtered by Jehovah in Armageddon.

[eternalsummer]

On the whole I am more sympathetic to proselytizers than salesmen, as the proselytizers we've had seem to genuinely think they are helping you (that is, converting you to the truth, saving your soul, etc.) while salesmen pretty clearly don't think this (even ones who are selling something for a charity).  The fact that the religious information isn't actually helpful is just a misunderstanding on their part.

 

That said, we've had both Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons; both sets came back weekly for quite a while (months?  something like that) as DH was very engaging - we are not religious but he enjoys talking about philosophy and religion and especially the fate of the world in the near future, so there were enough topics in common to keep them coming back until he made it pretty clear we weren't going to be members of either church.

 

The Jehovah's Witnesses were not as appealing as the Mormons, fwiw.  The Mormons were nice to our (rowdy) kids, friendly in general, more able to converse evenly instead of pressing their case constantly.

[LucyStoner]

I've confiscated them from the kids' trick-or-treat bags a couple of times and saw (and was greatly disturbed by) a few when I was a teen that had been left in public places, but no one has ever left one at the door or given me one in person.

Ok, anyone who passes out chick tracts instead of candy might as well post a "yes, this is the house to trick this year" sign.

[Aelwydd]

Coming into this late. I had a few LDS missionaries come to my house when I lived in Texas. I was worried for their health as it was very, very hot. I offered them bottles of water, said I was not interested in religious discussion, but wished them well and to be careful. A lot of Texans pack heat, and I would worry if it was my 18 or 20 year old having to ring doorbells of strangers. Between heat, guns, and aggressive dogs, most would stay home.

 

No particular point to this, just saying it's not exactly safe to do that kind of evangelical work.

[Scarlett]

Separation is a form of both thought- and behavior-control. JW's are not allowed to develop friendships with non-JW's. They are not allowed to step foot inside a church or other religious building for any reason ever, no exceptions. (My mom wouldn't go to her own sister's funeral, for example.). They can't read materials written by other Christians or listen to Christian music. Having their own distinctive vocabulary contributes to the overall feeling of being part of a special group that's distinct from the masses who are all going to be slaughtered by Jehovah in Armageddon.

Sigh. It is late and I am exhausted. Your post is full of inaccuracies. If anyone has questions to ask a longtime practicing JW pm me. Or go to our website JW.org.

[LucyStoner]

Sigh. It is late and I am exhausted. Your post is full of inaccuracies. If anyone has questions to ask a longtime practicing JW pm me. Or go to our website JW.org.

She said her mother wouldn't go to her sister's funeral. She's talking about her family. It sounds accurate for her experience with JWs.

[Tanaqui]

Why is this? And furthermore, why object to agreeing on those terms once they are defined?

 

Oftentimes, joining a group means using specialized terminology and in-jokes. We do it here - we say "JAWM" and talk about zombie threads. When you join the military, you learn a whole bunch of jargon, some of which is quite pointless - why say "head" instead of bathroom? Doctors do it too - they pay big bucks to learn to say "rhinovirus" instead of "the sniffles", but they also have their own informal slang as well, like "FLK" to mean "patient's mom has a funny looking kid", aka "nothing serious".

 

Use of this vocabulary helps promote in-group bonding. This sort of thing is generally harmless. I mean, what does it matter if they say "Kingdom Hall" instead of "Church"? And if they're raised in the group, they might not even see the difference between their sociolect and the mainstream way of speaking.

 

In this case, what Scarlett said was that she's not an Evangelical. Which she's not. JWs aren't. I'm not sure she was familiar with the other term.

 

With that said, Scarlett, what Greta said matches up with what I've heard from a lot of ex-JWs. They cannot all be lying or mistaken about how they were raised. That simply is not a credible position. I'm sure that individual branches do vary, but what she describes is not completely unheard of for your religion.

[Amy in NH]

FWIW, there was a period in my life where the JW sisters were a Godsend. We had just moved to a new neighborhood, I had a 15 month old baby, and I hadn't really gotten plugged in anywhere yet. When those ladies appeared on my doorstep, it was so awesome to have someone to talk to who spoke in complete sentences that I practically pulled them inside. They ended up being my first friends in the new neighborhood.

 

We also get LDS frequently. We live near a temple, so I think the teens practice on us before they go out to do their full missions elsewhere. They're always nice folks, who if we are doing yard work will jump right in (DD also once ended up with a LDS missionary helping her with Latin translations, because when they came to the door and asked if there was anything we could help with, she piped up with "Do you know Latin? This translation is hard!"-turned out he'd been homeschooled.).

 

I find both the LDS and JWs to be good neighbors. I've never felt beaten up for being the wrong flavor of Christian by them. I can't say that about all Christian groups.

 

I grew up in a Mennonite area, and my experiences with them is that they are in the world, not of it, not condemning anyone, but always willing to talk and share and help and live. If, over time, you come to believe as they do, they will welcome you-but they won't cut you off or stop being anything but nice and polite regardless. I have seen that same spirit in the LDS and JWs in my current community.

There is a sizable group of homeschooling JWs in my small, rural community, and they are polite but cold and unfriendly. I definitely had the opposite experience from yours when we first moved here. I am acquainted with them through library children's programming, and they would rather pretend not to see you in the grocery store than smile or say hello.

 

OTOH, a Catholic friend I met through 4-H obviously lives her faith through her warmth and caring for everyone she sees.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Amy in NH

[eternalsummer]

I think it's pretty telling how our personal interactions with a few members of a religion can color our perceptions of the religion as a whole.

 

The Mormon missionaries who came to visit us weekly for a couple of months had a profound impact on my life (although I never shared their particular faith).  I still have an overall positive impression of Mormons because of those young women. 

 

But we did not become Mormons, nor were we ever going to do so.   So I guess their success may be measured in two ways: they failed to make us Mormons, but succeeded in giving me the faith to have more children and believe in the live hypothesis.  

 

The JWs failed on both accounts, with me.

[Carrie12345]

That is such a weird statement!  Not wanting people to come to your door and promote their religion (or their MLM scheme, or a million other things) doesn't mean someone is not interested in being your friend.  They just don't want to interact with you on these specific terms (religious ones).  Can you only be friends with people who are JW or potential converts?

 

That would make me so very sad. 

 

While I comfortably admit I form closER relationships with other non-religious people, my friends and close acquaintances run the gamut. And I may not believe in the many different things on which they base their rituals and positions, but they live their lives in ways I respect and appreciate, and we all compliment one another and our community as a whole.  None of them have come to my doorstep, or any other location, specifically to "offer" me their religion, and yet they've managed to teach me a whole lot about them.

 

I know not everyone lives in areas where that actually happens, and I even know that not everyone in my area shares our kumbaya spirit, so I need to remind myself again how lucky I am.

[SKL]

I haven't had that particular experience (that I recall), but I get repeat visits from some Jehovah's Witnesses, and that isn't going to sway me either.

 

I have to say though - I am always incredulous when I hear an American say that s/he never heard about God / Jesus / the Bible growing up in this country.  Even if your family didn't take you to church, I don't see how you miss something so woven into our culture.  But I guess it's possible.

[zoobie]

That is such a weird statement! Not wanting people to come to your door and promote their religion (or their MLM scheme, or a million other things) doesn't mean someone is not interested in being your friend. They just don't want to interact with you on these specific terms (religious ones). Can you only be friends with people who are JW or potential converts?

I believe she has said that before. Again, not something unique to JW.

Edited May 15, 2017 by zoobie

[Bluegoat]

Oftentimes, joining a group means using specialized terminology and in-jokes. We do it here - we say "JAWM" and talk about zombie threads. When you join the military, you learn a whole bunch of jargon, some of which is quite pointless - why say "head" instead of bathroom? Doctors do it too - they pay big bucks to learn to say "rhinovirus" instead of "the sniffles", but they also have their own informal slang as well, like "FLK" to mean "patient's mom has a funny looking kid", aka "nothing serious".

 

Use of this vocabulary helps promote in-group bonding. This sort of thing is generally harmless. I mean, what does it matter if they say "Kingdom Hall" instead of "Church"? And if they're raised in the group, they might not even see the difference between their sociolect and the mainstream way of speaking.

 

In this case, what Scarlett said was that she's not an Evangelical. Which she's not. JWs aren't. I'm not sure she was familiar with the other term.

 

With that said, Scarlett, what Greta said matches up with what I've heard from a lot of ex-JWs. They cannot all be lying or mistaken about how they were raised. That simply is not a credible position. I'm sure that individual branches do vary, but what she describes is not completely unheard of for your religion.

 

Of course this is going to be true in any large group, right? There are a lot of JWs in North America. I had a roommate who was, officially, JW.  He really wasn't religious, but his parents were, but even so, they were "bad" JWs.  They had lots of outside friends, they drank alcohol, and other things.  They were really kind lovely people.  They loved my sister, who wasn't at all religious.

 

They didn't have serious problems in their community - they weren't the community leaders/pillars or anything, but not outcasts either.  The JW culture here seems to be somewhat understated.  Which makes sense, because that's what the public culture is like here generally - people are laid back, pretty friendly and tolerant, including of pretty extreme eccentricities and views. 

[Bluegoat]

I haven't had that particular experience (that I recall), but I get repeat visits from some Jehovah's Witnesses, and that isn't going to sway me either.

 

I have to say though - I am always incredulous when I hear an American say that s/he never heard about God / Jesus / the Bible growing up in this country.  Even if your family didn't take you to church, I don't see how you miss something so woven into our culture.  But I guess it's possible.

 

I think in some places it's pretty easy.  Most kids meet a lot of people with similar views to their own family, and tend not to notice things that they don't already know about.

[Tanaqui]

Of course this is going to be true in any large group, right? There are a lot of JWs in North America. I had a roommate who was, officially, JW.  He really wasn't religious, but his parents were, but even so, they were "bad" JWs.  They had lots of outside friends, they drank alcohol, and other things.  They were really kind lovely people.  They loved my sister, who wasn't at all religious.

 

Certainly. I mean, heck, some atheists are horrible jerks, and encourage other atheists to be just as bad. And we don't even really have an organized group!

 

And to answer what is sure to be Scarlett's rebuttal, I'm sure ex-JWs who grew up in less restrictive branches are not really inclined to talk too much about it, because it's not as important to them as those who grew up in awful ones where a person might be strongly discouraged from making friends outside the group or censured for going to a sibling's funeral in some other church.

[justasque]

...Doctors do it too - they pay big bucks to learn to say "rhinovirus" instead of "the sniffles", but they also have their own informal slang as well, like "FLK" to mean "patient's mom has a funny looking kid", aka "nothing serious".

...

 

Interesting.  I had always heard FLK as meaning "this kid's facial features make me wonder if there is some kind of underlying syndrome".  Lots of genetic conditions involve, among other things, certain facial characteristics, so FLK can be a potential symptom.  Maybe the use of this slang is different in different areas.

 

I think in some places it's pretty easy.  Most kids meet a lot of people with similar views to their own family, and tend not to notice things that they don't already know about.

 

If you live in the US, you'd have to be seriously unobservant to not notice Christmas, for example.  Of course there are secular parts of the holiday, but there's no shortage of religious references too.  Easter is less public-oriented, but still widely visible.    It would be hard not to notice the churches in your neighborhood, and the movable-letter signs outside of them, even if just when driving past them.  There are churches even in the poorest neighborhoods, and in many remote ones.  It would be rare for a child to go to a public school that didn't include Christian children - in fact they are usually in the majority.  And many, if not most, private schools are at least nominally Christian of some flavor or another.  And many children's books include references to going to church, Christian holidays, and so on.  I would be shocked to find a not super-rural-plus-homeschooled 8-year old in the US who had no inkling of Christianity, or one who by age 10 or 12 didn't have a grasp of the basics - Jesus, God, the Christmas story, and so on.  

Now, these kids may not have a full understanding of the nuances of a particular denomination, but Christianity is all around them on a regular basis.

[Bluegoat]

Interesting.  I had always heard FLK as meaning "this kid's facial features make me wonder if there is some kind of underlying syndrome".  Lots of genetic conditions involve, among other things, certain facial characteristics, so FLK can be a potential symptom.  Maybe the use of this slang is different in different areas.

 

 

If you live in the US, you'd have to be seriously unobservant to not notice Christmas, for example.  Of course there are secular parts of the holiday, but there's no shortage of religious references too.  Easter is less public-oriented, but still widely visible.    It would be hard not to notice the churches in your neighborhood, and the movable-letter signs outside of them, even if just when driving past them.  There are churches even in the poorest neighborhoods, and in many remote ones.  It would be rare for a child to go to a public school that didn't include Christian children - in fact they are usually in the majority.  And many, if not most, private schools are at least nominally Christian of some flavor or another.  And many children's books include references to going to church, Christian holidays, and so on.  I would be shocked to find a not super-rural-plus-homeschooled 8-year old in the US who had no inkling of Christianity, or one who by age 10 or 12 didn't have a grasp of the basics - Jesus, God, the Christmas story, and so on.  

Now, these kids may not have a full understanding of the nuances of a particular denomination, but Christianity is all around them on a regular basis.

 

Perhaps, but I've certainly known people who told me that they didn't notice, and I don't have any reason not to believe them.

 

I think many kids assume other people think and behave the way they do, and aren' super-curious.  So Christymas and Easter are about Santa and Eggs, and who cares what goes on in one big building as opposed to any other or why people say things they don't understand - it happens all the time as a kid.

 

Heck - I know several people who didn't realize chicken came from chickens until they were in their pre-teens/teens!

[Harriet Vane]

Point of clarification on terms:

 

Evangelizing is the act of telling people perceived to be outside of the faith about God. The term is also commonly applied to people sharing a message in which they believe fervently. For example, one might say for many years that my uncle was evangelizing for Amway or that my friend Dave likes to evangelize about the benefits of a "natural" lifestyle.

 

Evangelicals are a specific sub-group of Christians with roots in Protestantism. They are commonly "non-denominational," or "from a Bible church." I consider myself an Evangelical as someone who is attending an Evangelical Free (EV Free) church.

 

JWs and LDS do, indeed, evangelize, but they are not Evangelicals. Other groups or individuals who go door to door may or may not be Evangelicals even if they can accurately be said to be evangelizing.

 

 

 

[Greta]

 

And to answer what is sure to be Scarlett's rebuttal, I'm sure ex-JWs who grew up in less restrictive branches are not really inclined to talk too much about it, because it's not as important to them as those who grew up in awful ones where a person might be strongly discouraged from making friends outside the group or censured for going to a sibling's funeral in some other church.

 

 

Yes.  I probably talk about it too much here and need to lay off.  I honestly don't want to make Scarlett feel harassed.  But I did grow up in a very strict congregation that was super legalistic and lacking in compassion.  I thought all JW congregations were like that, because everything they did and said was taken right out of the pages The Watchtower and other publications, and were absolutely not considered "optional" but simply part of what it meant to be JW.  It wasn't until I became an adult that I learned that not all congregations take the publications quite that seriously, a fact which was as shocking to me as I'm sure my claims must be to Scarlett.

 

Also, the fact that these boards are the only place that I talk about it probably results in me talking about it here too much.  I have to bite my tongue IRL and on social media where I use my real name, because a huge chunk of my family is JW.  Criticizing the organization in any way is considered apostasy, and could get me cut out of their lives entirely.  So I stay silent and stay silent and stay silent, and then come here and vent!

[FaithManor]

Greta, (((hugs))) that is okay. We are here for Scarlett but also for you, same as everyone else and sometimes we need a place to air those childhood traumas because we absolutely can't IRL. BTDT, I have talked a lot more about what my father figure did to me in the last 3 years than I thought I would. Being able to let it out on the hive was a very important thing for me.

[Saddlemomma]

My faith has grown tremendously and undergone major transformations within the last few years.  I used to be a die-hard YE, literal, evangelistic, conservative Christian. Although I'm still pretty conservative, I'm not YE, literal, or majorly evangelistic anymore and neither is my DH or DD.

 

In fact, we are non-denominational.  Having denominations just means that no one can agree on what the scriptures actually teach or what they're really about. I've been doing a lot of studying & actually think most denominations have it all wrong.  Our kind of thinking means that most run-of-the-mill Christians will most likely think we're heretics.  That's okay by us.

 

Anyway, we used to get Mormons and JWs knocking on our doors.  I hated having them come to our door every year.  I would be the one to go out and talk with them and argue against what they teach, as they would get pretty insistent that I was wrong and in need of salvation. Now I realize we were both wrong.

 

I don't bother anymore and we, as a family, have never felt comfortable accosting people in their homes to "spread the good news". That is one area in which we always fell short, according to the teachings of whatever church we attended.  I try to think of what Jesus did in the first century.  He didn't go door-to-door.  He went to the synagogues first and taught.  He went to towns and villages and taught those who showed an interest in His message by following Him and listening as He taught at the Mt of Olives or from a boat. People flocked to Him.  He didn't go to their homes unless He went to share a meal or someone needed healing. The only exception to this was in His dealings with the Pharisees.  However, the Pharisees usually instigated those incidents as well.  Jesus was not fond of the Pharisees because of their legalism.  Unfortunately, that is what we see as the problem with churches today.  They are steeped in legalism; split into so many denominations because they can't agree on anything. They've created doctrines (such as the rapture) that were never present in the scriptures.  If you asked a first century Israelite about the rapture, they'd say, "Huh, what's that?" No one can agree on which doctrines are man-made and which are inspired.  It's sad.

 

Now, when we go to our church and listen to the message, our DD will whisper to me, "Mom, he's got that all wrong."  I'll respond, "That's okay, Hon, just glean the wheat and throw away the chaff." 

 

Our philosophy now is to demonstrate the love of Jesus through our actions towards others. Then, if someone asks, we tell them.

 

[Greta]

Greta, (((hugs))) that is okay. We are here for Scarlett but also for you, same as everyone else and sometimes we need a place to air those childhood traumas because we absolutely can't IRL. BTDT, I have talked a lot more about what my father figure did to me in the last 3 years than I thought I would. Being able to let it out on the hive was a very important thing for me.

Thank you so much for your kindness and understanding, Faith! These boards can be rather therapeutic, can't they? :) I did catch some of your posts about your father, and, well, wow. :grouphug:

[Lady Florida.]

Coming late to this thread and ran out of likes on page 5. 

 

I have noticed something here. If I say I'm atheist, that's an unspoken invitation to come back more and try harder to win my soul. If I say I'm Catholic I'm obviously a lost cause who has sold my eternal soul to the devil and should be pitied. But from a distance.

 

 

I've said both, and both seem to work here.

 

I completely understand a commission to share the Good News. But that really should be done through works, intimate conversations, and connections made with others. Coming door to door is really nothing more than a billboard flashing. It's lazy. Show me. Open your church to the homeless. Tithe to create a shower bus. Get together and build little houses, take over meals on wheels routes, go visit the elderly and let Christ's love shine through you to the people you want to reach.
 

 

 

 

 

Or, better yet, spend your time feeding the hungry and clothing the naked. Whenever you get the urge to go door-to-door, sign up for another shift of Meals-on-Wheels instead.

 

 

While I'm strongly atheist now, I have nothing bad to say about the United Methodist church we were attending before I let go of faith. They did "show me" evangelism. They would hand out water bottles at the local charity runs. They ran a Saturday car shop for minor repairs and things like oil changes (run by actual mechanics who were members). Donations were accepted but not required. Yes, some people took advantage because they could well afford to go to an actual auto shop but no one was turned away. They had caregiver sitting services so people caring for aging relatives could get out of the house periodically. They had food drives of their own and participated in ones sponsored by other organizations (both secular and other churches). I could go on and on, but they did, and as far as I know still do, the kinds of things that show their faith to others. They didn't need to beat anyone over the head with it. That's how it should be imo.

 

Am I the only one who had to look up what a Chick tract is? Never heard of that before in my life!

 

I know what they are but have only had to deal with them once - in ds' trick or treat bag. 

 

I get that. However, here if you were to say, "No thank you". They keep talking and do not give up. you basically need to close the door as they are talking. So, I guess that it just depends on where you are and what church.
 

 

I've never had teens or anyone under age come to the door unless they were with an adult. We rarely get anyone though. My street is smack in the middle of our subdivision, it's a cul de sac, and it's a side street off of a side street. I guess we aren't worth the extra steps it takes to get here. When we do get church types (most are actually not JW or LDS, but some form of Protestant) I just say "No thank you, I'm an atheist". Then I shut the door before they can say anything else. I smile. I'm not rude. But I don't give the a chance to engage.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[Tanaqui]

Greta, I don't want to sound like I'm criticizing. I'm not! We're here for you if you need it. But I'm wondering if you've considered talking on an ex-JW forum, or one that's generally for people who have left repressive religious movements. I know a lot of people find that sort of thing helpful too... though of course, here you already have a social group you know, and which cares about you, so it's kinda six of one, half dozen of the other.

[Greta]

Greta, I don't want to sound like I'm criticizing. I'm not! We're here for you if you need it. But I'm wondering if you've considered talking on an ex-JW forum, or one that's generally for people who have left repressive religious movements. I know a lot of people find that sort of thing helpful too... though of course, here you already have a social group you know, and which cares about you, so it's kinda six of one, half dozen of the other.

I really appreciate you making the suggestion! It's very kind of you. I tried two ex-JW forums at one point but neither of them was a good fit for me. I just didn't like the "feel" if that makes sense. I never tried any more general ones (meaning, for more religions than just JW) so I might do that! I never thought to look for something like that. Thanks!

[scholastica]

Interesting. I had always heard FLK as meaning "this kid's facial features make me wonder if there is some kind of underlying syndrome". Lots of genetic conditions involve, among other things, certain facial characteristics, so FLK can be a potential symptom. Maybe the use of this slang is different in different areas.

 

 

If you live in the US, you'd have to be seriously unobservant to not notice Christmas, for example. Of course there are secular parts of the holiday, but there's no shortage of religious references too. Easter is less public-oriented, but still widely visible. It would be hard not to notice the churches in your neighborhood, and the movable-letter signs outside of them, even if just when driving past them. There are churches even in the poorest neighborhoods, and in many remote ones. It would be rare for a child to go to a public school that didn't include Christian children - in fact they are usually in the majority. And many, if not most, private schools are at least nominally Christian of some flavor or another. And many children's books include references to going to church, Christian holidays, and so on. I would be shocked to find a not super-rural-plus-homeschooled 8-year old in the US who had no inkling of Christianity, or one who by age 10 or 12 didn't have a grasp of the basics - Jesus, God, the Christmas story, and so on.

Now, these kids may not have a full understanding of the nuances of a particular denomination, but Christianity is all around them on a regular basis.

I don't know. I read a blog post once in which the author described a conversation with a woman at work in 1995. The song "One of Us" had just come out and she said " Wouldn't that be so cool if God became a man!?" So, she obviously had no idea about the most basic teaching of the Christian faith. This was 20+ years ago when Faith was even more pronounced and put there and she still had no idea. So, apparently, it is possible.

[Ravin]

I think it's possible to grow up nowadays with little knowledge of Christianity. DD has been to church with a friend and her take away was that the band was cool. She has also encountered other kids at school (actually a PS-run homeschool enrichment program) who had to learn the hard way that it's not nice to tell people they are going to hell because they don't attend your church. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

While I'm strongly atheist now, I have nothing bad to say about the United Methodist church we were attending before I let go of faith. They did "show me" evangelism. They would hand out water bottles at the local charity runs. They ran a Saturday car shop for minor repairs and things like oil changes (run by actual mechanics who were members). Donations were accepted but not required. Yes, some people took advantage because they could well afford to go to an actual auto shop but no one was turned away. They had caregiver sitting services so people caring for aging relatives could get out of the house periodically. They had food drives of their own and participated in ones sponsored by other organizations (both secular and other churches). I could go on and on, but they did, and as far as I know still do, the kinds of things that show their faith to others. They didn't need to beat anyone over the head with it. That's how it should be imo.

 

 

 

My eldest son, who wants to be a interfaith healthcare chaplain, has nearly completely switched to the UMC for this reason. Less talking, more doing, and he finds them to be happy and pleasant people.

 

He is studying religion and philosophy at a UMC liberal arts college, so he's been able to get a close look at the theology and culture. He's the school's student worship director, and he has a Sunday job as a worship director for an inner city UMC. So I know he's not switching "just" because as an entire family we are over fundamentalist evangelicalism, but because he truly thinks the doctrines and practices are good.

 

He says the it's the difference illustrated in the Chinese proverb: Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness! He's tired of Christians cursing (their definition of) darkness. Better to love your fellow man, and work together with people of all beliefs to shine a light.

[eternalsummer]

I grew up without any religious instruction or attendance or anything - I went to church with a friend maybe twice before I was 10.  Partially this is because I spent ages 7-9 in married student housing at UT-Austin, so my friends at the time were not religious either as they were primarily Asians of various sorts.  When I was 10 we moved to the Bible Belt.  I remember realizing at around that time what the whole Christianity thing was about - I said to my mom in the car that I had thought that Jesus, God, and The Lord were three separate deities, and while I understood that Jesus was the son of God, I thought The Lord was their butler.

[KungFuPanda]

There's a new trick here I've met a few times now, where  pair of (usually) young women come to the door asking for help with their "homework" from "Language School" (they have all been ESL speakers, almost all Asian).  They then produce a bible and start asking if you understand the meaning of certian verses.  UGH!  I chalk it up to another layer of the dishonesty I keep seeing in religion. 

 

 

 

entirely OT, I would LOVE to see photos if it weren't too invasive!  Your house sounds amazing.

It's the new tricks that get you. I was used to JWs being a pair of older black women. Then one day they changed the formula and sent a dude with elementary aged kids. I thought he broke down and a kid needed to pee or something so I opened the door like a sucker. With the Mormons I have to get them away quickly for their own protection before my dd sees them and starts singing "And I believe . . . "

 

You'd think it would be more efficient to keep a list so you didn't return to the same house time and again.

[Daria]

My son is quite interested in the Mormon missionaries that live in our building.  I've encouraged him to talk to them and find out what they believe, but I'm not sure if he has done so.

 

I don't have a problem with missionaries in my neighborhood.  Usually, I see the Mormons in the common areas of our building, and the JW's at the subway, and I stop and with them a good day.  If they try and convert me, I simply tell them that I have friends who share their faith (true) and that I'd prefer to go to them if they have questions, and they always seem fine with that logic.  However, I'd strongly prefer that they don't knock on my door, which feels really intrusive.  Frankly, even thought I like my Mormon neighbors (the JW's are different every time I see them, so I think of them as strangers, the Mormons are always the same 2, so I consider them neighbors), if I was in a situation where I was standing at the door to my apartment, with 2 adult sized males, between me and the hallway and any exit, it would make me anxious.  I'm glad that they haven't put me in that position.  

[DawnM]

You need a sign that says:

 

No Soliciting

 

We have found Jesus

We love our Vacuum 

We are too broke to buy anything

Go Away

Unless you have thin mints

Edited May 16, 2017 by DawnM