Updated in #1: United Airlines flight Oversold (?) in Chicago - Violent removal of passenger

[Lanny]

I read (but can't confirm) that the person who needed the seat was a United employee.

 

That is confirmed, per the other article I posted down-thread.  They needed seats for Deadheading United employees, so they could fly from Louisville today. I'm not sure whether they were Cockpit Crew or Cabin Crew. Or both?

[shawthorne44]

You guys might find this interesting.  I found it when I made a typo one day.   I hate United.   I once flew DFW to FRA (Frankfurt) on United.  But butt was against the back of the seat and I have short legs, I am 5'6" and all torso.   My knees were ON the seat back on front of me.  

 

 

http://www.untied.com

 

 

[Paige]

I feel bad for the poor man's patients. I hope none of them were waiting for a critical procedure. He was willing to go all in on their behalf. When I first saw the story I thought the man must have had a really good reason for resisting so strongly. 

 

The cost of doing business if you overbook should include upping your incentives until someone volunteers. I'm sure someone on that plane had a price.

 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

If they were needed on a flight today, then they could have been given a rental car by the airlines and driven to Louisville.  They had options. 

[Lanny]

It actually would make *less* sense to me, because I'd have expected airline employees to be the first ones *bumped*.  It's like why the hosts of a party (and their families) don't serve themselves till last - if they run short of something, then they want to inconvenience *themselves* before their guests.  Making a huge to-do over kicking off a customer for the benefit of an employee is the exact *opposite* of how it should work, kwim?

 

They were not "Non Revenue" or "Non Revs" who are flying Space Available. That group is the last to be boarded and if they have a revenue passenger show up, after they have boarded, they will be removed from the aircraft, so the paying passenger can fly.  They were Deadheading employees who probably had the equivalent of a full-fare ticket. United needed them to fly from Louisville today.  

[luuknam]

If they were needed on a flight today, then they could have been given a rental car by the airlines and driven to Louisville.  They had options. 

 

 

If they were supposed to fly (especially long distance), then having them drive 4.5 hours just beforehand would not necessarily be a safe choice, nor possibly even a legal one (when I was a truck driver, our legal daily limit was 11 hours, with then a minimum of I don't recall hours rest, and I'm sure there are flights that are longer than 6 hours).

 

ETA: I don't know if these employees were pilots or flight attendants - just saying that if they were pilots this really is quite possibly not a good/legal option.

Edited April 10, 2017 by luuknam

[Lanny]

If they were needed on a flight today, then they could have been given a rental car by the airlines and driven to Louisville.  They had options. 

 

That would have made them illegal to fly. They need certain minimum hours of rest before they can fly. That especially applies to the Cockpit Crew ("Duty Regs") but a decent airline will also apply that for Flight Attendants. Some do, some don't.  

[Seasider]

Lanny I'm with you, I've ridden in a jump seat. My guess is that they had to have enough space for the entire deadheading crew or it wouldn't have mattered.

 

VERY poor planning on the part of UA. Very. Bad bad bad for business.

[kroe1]

While I completely agree that this was poorly handled and hope the person sues, I disagree with this:

 

 

Getting flight crew to a destination so they can work their flight needs to have priority, because otherwise you have a chain reaction of cancelled flights. This is not about "benefit" of an employee - it is about running a functioning airline that has crew to operate their flights.

The problem is that United has more resources to get their crew to another destination than the doctor has to get to his patients. Many physicians work in rural areas and do not have backup. We do not know the whole story yet. If this man had no one to take care of his patients, then no wonder he refused to leave. United should have the decency to understand the urgency of the flight for each passenger. It is certainly no the physician's fault that United cannot get their crew from one city to another.

 

Personally, United has been a crappy flight for me every time I have flown with them. It is always something. But, every flight seems to need volunteers to give up their seats. Their overbooking must be greatly out of hand.

[Aura]

Per the "overbooking is necessary" thing, NOPE. That is just plain wrong. They are literally, intentionally selling more seats than they have available! How is that not fraud? I truly don't understand how this is legal. (I know that it is...it just doesn't make sense to me.)

 

If anyone cannot operate a business in an ethical manner, then they need to get out of the business.

 

This is one area that the government should be intervening in. Overbooking should be illegal, and airlines should restructure to make it work.

 

[LucyStoner]

You may be right. The first articles I read said they called "security." The New York Times article said the airline referred further questions to the Chicago PD. Then the Chicago PD referred questions to the Chicago Department of Aviation.

Here there are actual cops at the airport. They work for the Port of Seattle, who runs the airport. They aren't rent a cop security guards, they are employed by the police force for the airport and overall port security. It sounds like these are police who work for the Department of Aviation.

[justasque]

This is probably a good time to mention the

, which now has over 16 million views on YouTube.

 

A family member had a horrible experience with budget airline Spirit Airlines this weekend.  Based on that one experience, which included shady pricing/revenue practices and a whole lot of stress, none of us will ever fly them in the future.  

 

On the up side, we LOVE Southwest.  Low prices, combined with cheerful, helpful staff.  

[Seasider]

Right. So if no-one volunteers at $400, or $800, they could've just upped the number until someone volunteered. I'm sure that at some point someone would've thought it worth their while.

Yep. This is gonna cost them a helluva lot more than $800.

[Lanny]

They do it because the entire U.S. airline industry operates within such tight margins that it's nearly impossible for them to keep their heads above water without overbooking. It's a classic example used in business classes. Google "Porter's five forces airline industry" if you want to see how it works. 

 

(Not saying what United did was right, though)

 

Amen.   If any airline claims not to "Overbook" they are either lying or they are going to enter bankruptcy in the near future. The computerized reservations systems have a history of what percentage of people on a certain flight, historically, do not show up for their flight. Sometimes, that statistic is wrong on a certain day and flight and that's when the flight is "Oversold" at the gate.

[justasque]

Per the "overbooking is necessary" thing, NOPE. That is just plain wrong. They are literally, intentionally selling more seats than they have available! How is that not fraud? I truly don't understand how this is legal. (I know that it is...it just doesn't make sense to me.)

 

If anyone cannot operate a business in an ethical manner, then they need to get out of the business.

 

This is one area that the government should be intervening in. Overbooking should be illegal, and airlines should restructure to make it work.

 

Overbooking helps keep the cost of plane tickets low, so I don't have a problem with it.  And my extended family loves to volunteer to be bumped when the opportunity arises.  The problem here was not the over booking - it even sounds like they may not have realized they needed to have some crew deadhead on the flight until boarding had commenced - but rather the lack of upping the compensation offer in a timely enough fashion to get enough volunteers to give up their seats, and instead going to forced bumping.

 

(And really, if forced bumping is part of their policy, that needs to be re-thought.  There are lots of legit reasons that bumping someone would be a PR nightmare - a doctor is one, but someone on their way to see a dying relative, or to get medical treatment, or to see a loved one before they are deployed - the possibilities for negative publicity are endless.  They need to rethink their overbooking strategy.)

Edited April 10, 2017 by justasque

[luuknam]

Personally, United has been a crappy flight for me every time I have flown with them. It is always something. But, every flight seems to need volunteers to give up their seats. Their overbooking must be greatly out of hand.

 

 

If that's so, then yeah, that's crazy. I've never been asked to volunteer to give up my seat. 

[shawthorne44]

Anyone else notice this?
 

"After our team looked for volunteers, one customer refused to leave the aircraft voluntarily and law enforcement was asked to come to the gate.

"We apologise for the overbook situation."

 

Overbooking is what they apologize for, not manhandling a perfectly innocent guy.   

My opinion is that him being a doctor with patients to see in the morning is immaterial.   If he were a retired guy that was just sick and tired of being away from his own bed, I'd feel the same.  

 

[Joker]

Dh recently flew United and in two of his four flights passengers were asked to give up seats.

 

He also hated the fact that every single time they ended up having to check his carry on because they ran out of space halfway through boarding. His carry on is always on the smaller size and most had to end up checking. What's up with that? Why do they allow so many to bring multiple bags or bags that are too big? We just dislike United all the way around. 

[Aura]

The idea of selling something you don't have just says "wrong" to me, no matter how someone tries to justify it.

 

Instead of overbooking, why don't just refuse to issue refunds? If you pay for the flight and then don't show up, you don't get your money back. Actually, I thought that was pretty standard, anyway.

 

I am sure that there are nuances to this that I don't understand, but again, selling something you don't have to someone is unethical at the least, no matter how much business sense it makes.

 

But yeah, no matter what, United made some really, really poor decisions in how they handled this particular situation.

 

 

[Riverland]

That's because you don't really get cash money. You get eight or sixteen $50 vouchers that cannot be combined or used together. 

 

What? That's never been our experience, even recently on United. If the consideration for bumping is $800, we get a voucher worth $800.

 

Now, the annoying part is when you've been bumped (we always voluntarily do this) and you have several vouchers left with nominal amounts remaining on them. Those cannot be combined. But the initial voucher is always for the full amount of the bump.

[Lanny]

I disagree that this is a necessary business practice.  In any other business it would be fraud.  It should be illegal.

 

Probably car rental companies, hotel chains, cruise lines, and others do it.  I am a former  airline employee.  One day I was on a flight from Miami to San Juan. The guy sitting next to me was a Stockbroker who lived in San Juan.  He asked me where I was going to stay. I told him I didn't have a reservation, but that I would call from the Baggage Claim. He told me the town was full.  I said, "OK, if I can't get a room in San Juan, I'll go back to Miami".  

 

So I went to the phone in the Baggage Claim and I called a hotel near the airport and gave them my name and where I worked.  No problem...  I went to the hotel (on a beach with wonderful warm water) and when I got to the Front Desk, there was a family from New York State who had a paper with a confirmed reservation.  They were being turned away.

 

THIS IS WHERE IT GOT INTERESTING:  Listening to that exchange, I was positive that I was not going to be given a room in that property, at that time. After they left, I went to the Front Desk gave the clerk my name and checked into the property.

 

THAT REALLY SURPRISED ME.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Lanny

[catz]

Most people do not want to lay over. It just complicates their lives. When we came home from Iceland, Delta had overbooked in JFK. They needed four volunteers, and we did not offer until they bumped the perks to $1000 a seat, food vouchers, and free hotel since they could not get us on another airline that night. Anything less, and we would not have volunteered.

 

$400 is nothing if you have to pay $150 a night for the hotel room, pay for transportation to it, and pay for two or three meals. Also understand that you don't get your checked bags. They do not unload the hold so your bags go ahead of you and you have to hope they do not get stolen, or when unclaimed routed to a different airport. It took three days for ours to show up.

 

A lot of people are not prepared stay over. I do not find it surprising that they had no takers.

I totally agree.  DH was offered $300 last week to stay one more night for a business trip.  You're lucky if that would cover expenses for 1 night.  If you are missing work, have kids, plus overnight expenses, etc even $800 may not be worth it after covering everything you need to cover. 

[Murphy101]

Anyone else notice this?

"After our team looked for volunteers, one customer refused to leave the aircraft voluntarily and law enforcement was asked to come to the gate.

"We apologise for the overbook situation."

Overbooking is what they apologize for, not manhandling a perfectly innocent guy.

My opinion is that him being a doctor with patients to see in the morning is immaterial. If he were a retired guy that was just sick and tired of being away from his own bed, I'd feel the same.

Right. Being doctor doesn't make him more special than the person going to a funeral or the person getting home to a sick relative or the person trying to get a job interview or...

 

And if that starts being used as the bar, people are going to start claiming all kinds of reasons and then what? Now we should carry proof of why our flight is important so we can compare who deserves to keep the seat they already paid for? That nuts.

[momacacia]

Here's hoping the doctor makes enough off the lawsuit to not have to see patients anymore. 😃

 

Cheers for phone cameras and here's hoping the guy can get names of passengers next to him to testify.

[maize]

 

Instead of overbooking, why don't just refuse to issue refunds? If you pay for the flight and then don't show up, you don't get your money back. Actually, I thought that was pretty standard,anyway.

I believe it is standard. The airlines count on some tickets being paid for, not used, and not refunded. That allows all ticket prices to be kept lower.

 

But it also means that if everyone does show up for the flight they don't have room. They know historically that x% are likely to be no-shows, and they plan to sell the number of seats available plus that percent of overage.

[Murphy101]

I don't think mopuchnif (really autocorrect? You got that from "much of"?) the camera taking, it seems everyone says how that sucks and then nothing changes. I would like to see passengers unite together. I vote for every passenger to stand up and refuse to sit down or get off the plane in solidarity when they see this crap happen. I think seeing that on camera would be far more compelling of change. Sure the airline could call in more cops to remove them all... but I bet it wouldn't take too many events of that happening to make them rethink their business practices.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Murphy101

[lauraw4321]

Hotels definitely overbook as well.  They do this because they know that people will no-show.

[flyingiguana]

This is probably a good time to mention the United Breaks Guitars video, which now has over 16 million views on YouTube.

 

 

 

And the leggings incident.

 

I've heard that United Breaks Guitars is a video that's often shown in marketing classes as an example of why the customer is ALWAYS right.

 

Now there's a new video to show.

[catz]

That would have made them illegal to fly. They need certain minimum hours of rest before they can fly. That especially applies to the Cockpit Crew ("Duty Regs") but a decent airline will also apply that for Flight Attendants. Some do, some don't.  

 

I do think there were other options - upping the reward, don't let people on the plane until you have enough volunteers, look at other flights with other airlines to the same destination that may have space.  Heck, they could have contracted a small private plane to fly their crew.  Dragging someone off the plane who already had a seat should never have come into play. 

 

I will definitely be avoiding United.  Wasn't too thrilled with the legging incident either.  Know it's their rules.  They need to ask if customers really care what minor children of employees wear on flights and the reason they have those rules.  I'd rather see comfortable kids than business casual kids who were shamed in public.

 

[Joker]

Hotels definitely overbook as well.  They do this because they know that people will no-show.

 

At least with most hotels you haven't already paid in full. I'm never charged until I actually check in and am not charged as long as I cancel 24 hours in advance. I would be annoyed at being turned away at a hotel but not as furious if I was kicked off a flight I had already purchased. 

[flyingiguana]

Anyone else notice this?

 

"After our team looked for volunteers, one customer refused to leave the aircraft voluntarily and law enforcement was asked to come to the gate.

"We apologise for the overbook situation."

  

 

They obviously weren't looking for volunteers if they claim he was only dragged off because he didn't volunteer.

[flyingiguana]

Were any of the employees getting on the flight to replace this guy wearing leggings?

[regentrude]

They obviously weren't looking for volunteers if they claim he was only dragged off because he didn't volunteer.

 

That reminds me of growing up in a totalitarian regime, where you had to "volunteer" for certain activities. Failure to do so would result in being force to do it - or having imposed strong sanctions that made you rethink your choice.

Edited April 10, 2017 by regentrude

[Seasider]

At least with most hotels you haven't already paid in full. I'm never charged until I actually check in and am not charged as long as I cancel 24 hours in advance. I would be annoyed at being turned away at a hotel but not as furious if I was kicked off a flight I had already purchased.

Yes, there's a difference between having a reservation and showing up late and not getting your room, versus providing payment and guaranteeing your room will be available if a late arrival.

[Murphy101]

At least with most hotels you haven't already paid in full. I'm never charged until I actually check in and am not charged as long as I cancel 24 hours in advance. I would be annoyed at being turned away at a hotel but not as furious if I was kicked off a flight I had already purchased.

Same with cars. We rent cars all the time. Don't get billed until we bring it back.

[Ravin]

This was a flight from Chicago to Louisville though - at a certain price point, I would've taken the money and rented a car and driven to Louisville (a 4.5 hour drive).

Given the hassles of airports, I wouldn't have flown at all for that short a distance.

 

You can get a train from Chicago to Lousiville if you need to rest on the journey.

[Pawz4me]

They obviously weren't looking for volunteers if they claim he was only dragged off because he didn't volunteer.

 

Right. Their statement makes no sense at all.

[Paige]

Anyone else notice this?

 

"After our team looked for volunteers, one customer refused to leave the aircraft voluntarily and law enforcement was asked to come to the gate.

"We apologise for the overbook situation."

 

 

 

So they "apologize" for the overbook situation that they fully intend to ensure continues to happen? How is that an apology? It's a sorry, not sorry. 

[Pam in CT]

Airline margins overall may well be tight.  United, specifically, reported $4.5 billion in net income last year.  After a merger that many analysts were concerned would lead to monopolistic routes between some junctions.

 

 

Systemic overbooking as ordinary course of business is one thing.  

 

Systemic overbooking combined with involuntary bumping is another thing.  It is the latter that is troubling.  It goes beyond caveat emptor: in such a world, what exactly have we bought when we lay out $502 for a plane ticket?  Some sort of "best efforts if it's convenient to us, otherwise too-bad-so-sad"?

 

Everyone has a story.  When I was young and traveled alone a lot, I often volunteered to be bumped.  Traveling as a family of 5, we have never taken a bump -- on the way out, we've got places to go; on the way home, we've got one car waiting at the airport; it's rare that they're looking for 5 and who wants the hassle of being separated.  Sometimes travel is time-sensitive.  Always, you can't really be sure they'll manage a connecting flight with any kind of efficiency, and who wants to be stranded in a connecting airport for hours on end.  Blah, blah, blah.  Individuals have their individual stories.

 

But on a full flight, there is some number, or combination of offerings, at which the market will clear.  For whatever reason, United opted not to go to that number.  I hope they pay the cost.

[gardenmom5]

Wow - that's appalling.  I wonder why he got picked to get dragged off the plane?  He was sitting in a seat.  I hope he sues if this is as it looks here.

 

supposedly it was computer randomized for who was kicked off.

 

It isn't "necessary" for airlines to overbook flights. They do it to make as much money as possible, even if it ends up screwing some of their customers.

 

And if you read the article, the airline admitted the man was removed because of the overbooking. A little part of me was hoping there was more to it because holy crap, but nope. This was all about profit margins.

 

this - I'm out of likes - but really wanted to "like" it.

they could easily have more on "standby", but they sell those seats as an actual seat instead.  then the person thinks they have a seat, but maybe they really don't.

 

What I don't understand is why they'd kick someone who is already on the plane off and not just tell the people still at the gate that they don't have a seat for them

 

from my understanding - (that could be wrong) they were giving priority to UA personnel who were 'deadheading' but not actually on the plane.

if airlines didn't make things so difficult to use a voucher on another flight, or gave cash instead of a voucher, etc. they might have had more volunteers.

[FaithManor]

And I should clarify that Delta paid our hotel when they overbooked us and put us on a different flight the next day, but the $1000 each was in amazon gift cards. Since we order a lot of college texts from amazon we were willing to do it. But no one was offered actual cash, and none of the other gift cards were for companies we normally do business with so had amazon not been an option, we would not have volunteered. The other people who agreed also took amazon and of course the night at the Radisson plus free taxi service. It took a while to get others to volunteer because people who were considering it were at the customer service desk on their cell phones calling home to see if people could take care of their kids one more night or if they could take another day off work or come to work late. More than one passenger had the boss or the sitter say no and they left the desk to get back in line to board.

 

Delta did it right though. They did not board the plane - not even first class - until they had identified their volunteers and had things squared away.

Edited April 10, 2017 by FaithManor

[Murphy101]

My husband mentioned in a phone call a bit ago... he actually has over a $1000 in vouchers! 😱 I had no idea. Some are about to expire and some have expired because he couldn't ever use the things. He says he doesn't even listen when they offer vouchers bc so often the vouchers end up useless to him. His ears perk up for cash, but it's never been enough to make it worth it. He travels a lot for work and says he has never volunteered on any flight for those two reasons alone, neverminding his pressing work obligations on his time.

[luuknam]

Given the hassles of airports, I wouldn't have flown at all for that short a distance.

 

You can get a train from Chicago to Lousiville if you need to rest on the journey.

 

 

You can? Because both Amtrak and Google Maps make it look like you'd have to take the bus, and it would take over 7 hours. 

 

ETA: I flew to NYC recently even though I strongly dislike flying because Amtrak takes about 9 hours to get from here to there and charge about the same as the airlines do but the flight is only 75 min - driving is significantly faster than taking the train in this country, which is insane.

Edited April 10, 2017 by luuknam

[gingersmom]

I have flown United forever and thankfully have never had any issues.

 

My college daughter flies out of a smaller airport and United is the only airline with direct flights twice a day.

 

I told her to not make any waves, whether you agree or disagree just go with what they say and we will deal with later. She has a credit card if she needs to stay at hotel (one attached to airport and many more nearby)

 

Flying has changed so much that I never look forward to having to fly anywhere anymore. Crazy passengers and even crazier flight crews!

[Murphy101]

Idk. I get how it's safer and easier to not make waves. But that is also the best way to make sure nothing changes too. To me, resisting in your seat is peaceful protest. I wish other passengers had refused to sit or whatever in peaceful solidarity. Enough already with the airline insanity. It is not necessary to treat people that way.

[gardenmom5]

Yep. This is gonna cost them a helluva lot more than $800.

must like this.  (outta likes).

someone's head is going to be rolling . . . .

 

Anyone else notice this?

 

"After our team looked for volunteers, one customer refused to leave the aircraft voluntarily and law enforcement was asked to come to the gate.

"We apologise for the overbook situation."

 

Overbooking is what they apologize for, not manhandling a perfectly innocent guy.   

My opinion is that him being a doctor with patients to see in the morning is immaterial.   If he were a retired guy that was just sick and tired of being away from his own bed, I'd feel the same.  

 

I agree it's irrelevant what his occupation was. 

but united has screwed themselves in the pr dept, and I don't think they realized it.

forcing someone to leave isn't "volunteering".

maybe someone should give them a dictionary.

[FaithManor]

I agree they need a dictionary. Good grief. They were coercing a passenger to leave. Huge difference.

 

I would be happy to see United go under - they truly are the pits - and be absorbed by someone with better customer service.

Edited April 10, 2017 by FaithManor

[Amy in NH]

That would have made them illegal to fly. They need certain minimum hours of rest before they can fly. That especially applies to the Cockpit Crew ("Duty Regs") but a decent airline will also apply that for Flight Attendants. Some do, some don't.  

 

Then they could have had one of the other employees drive them.  Resting in a car is not any different than resting in a plane.

[gardenmom5]

Then they could have had one of the other employees drive them.  Resting in a car is not any different than resting in a plane.

 

and you can stop and eat *real* food!

[AmandaVT]

I feel bad for the poor man's patients. I hope none of them were waiting for a critical procedure. He was willing to go all in on their behalf. When I first saw the story I thought the man must have had a really good reason for resisting so strongly. 

 

The cost of doing business if you overbook should include upping your incentives until someone volunteers. I'm sure someone on that plane had a price.

 

This is what Delta did last weekend. I happened to be at the gate desk when they realized the flight was overbooked. I asked the agent what would happen if no one volunteered and he said they just keep upping the incentives until someone does. The agents had a bit of fun with it - letting people know what round trip tickets to places like Aruba cost and informing them that they could have a free trip there if they were willing to give up their seat and fly the next morning. Everyone was professional and they had a pretty easy time sorting out the overbooking issue. 

 

One of my flights had two people with the same seat number assigned. Because there were no free seats in comfort plus, one of them got bumped to first class free.

 

I don't see any need to forcibly drag someone out of an airplane. The lawsuit and lost revenue is going to cost more than any incentives they could offer. I'm sure if they said $10,000 to the first 4 people who give up their seat, they'd have a ton of takers!