Updated in #1: United Airlines flight Oversold (?) in Chicago - Violent removal of passenger

And, what, exactly, is the point of online check-in for a flight, 24 hours in advance, if my boarding pass doesn't guarantee me a seat on the flight?

[Lanny]

For an employee?!?

 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2017/04/09/why-delta-air-lines-paid-me-11000-not-to-fly-to-florida-this-weekend/#3730ac5f4de1

 

I cannot imagine them offering compensation to a Non-Revenue (Space Available) passenger paying a fraction of the normal ticket price. Those passengers, if aboard the aircraft and it was Oversold, would be removed from the aircraft, immediately.  They are the last to be allowed to board and would be the first passengers removed from the aircraft.

 

I doubt very much that they would pay compensation to an employee travelling on company business. My belief (I worked for 2 airlines) is that the company rules would prohibit that. Possibly they would pay for a hotel and meals overnight, but not compensation.  

 

HOWEVER, I can very easily imagine them paying that kind of compensation, to someone who is flying on Frequent Flyer Miles. WHY?  My wife reminded me of this trip when we were eating Dinner: We got to the Bogota airport at about 4 A.M. with DD, for a flight to Atlanta, with a connection to Las Vegas. My wife and I were on Delta Frequent Flyer tickets. We had purchased a ticket for DD.  When we got to the Delta Ticket Counter, and it was our turn, we were told the flight from Atlanta, the night before, had a problem and that flight had terminated in Miami. So, they did not have an aircraft for our flight to Atlanta.  She told us to come back the next day. I told her, "No, I read the rules and we have the same Rights as Full-Fare Passengers".  She went to their Rule book for a minute or two and then she came back and she told us, "You are correct.  We will put you on American to Miami and then back on Delta to Atlanta and Las Vegas".   Possibly, I'd printed out the rules and had them with me, in case we ran into a problem.  

[Corraleno]

I can't make a link for some reason, but there is an article on people.com with some additional information. It says they disembarked the passengers (many evidently left in protest), cleaned up the plane, and allowed the man back on to continue his flight.

 

The whole incident is disturbing.

 

He was only allowed back on to get his things; he was accompanied by security, and was taken back off the plane. He was later taken to the hospital. The flight left without him.

[justasque]

*All this* for an employee?!?

 

 

 

 

Why Delta Air Lines Paid Me $11,000 Not To Fly To Florida This Weekend

 

If the employees were pilots (and from what I've read today there is apparently a pilot shortage), those employees represent a plane full of paying customers which can't fly unless the pilots can get to the departure airport.  Lack of a pilot can cause a loss of a lot more than $11,000.

 

As I understand it, it is somewhat routine for airline staff to live in a different city than their "home base" departure city.  They commute by flying 'deadhead' on regular flights from their city to their home base.  

 

In addition, most of the time overbooked flights don't entail bumping passengers, as some people don't show.  So the occasional payment to incentivize voluntary bumps has to be weighed against all the times that filling those otherwise-empty seats through overbooking created positive revenue.  (Say a ticket costs $250.  So if the average flight has 4 no-shows, the airline may decide to overbook all flights by four people.  On most flights, that will work out, generating an extra $1000.  A small number of flights will need to pay bumped passengers, but the airlines try to make the best guess at the numbers so that the revenue gained by filling otherwise-empty seats is greater than the loss through bumping payments.) 

 

Every flight has quite a lot of largely-fixed costs.  The pilots, flight attendants, fuel, airport fees, booking agents, baggage handlers, and so on have to get paid whether the flight is full or half-empty.  The closer the airline runs to every-seat-full, the more likely they can make a profit (and thus survive in the market).

[Lanny]

And, what, exactly, is the point of online check-in for a flight, 24 hours in advance, if my boarding pass doesn't guarantee me a seat on the fligh

 

 

Always get your Boarding Passes as soon as the airline's system permits and check-in online.  Normally, that will protect you. We always print two (2) copies of our Boarding Passes, because I assume the Gate Agent will take one copy before we board. Then, we have another copy, in case someone else thinks we are in their seat. That happened to my wife last year. I think it was on the Orlando > Bogota segment. My wife had the correct seat. The other woman was in the wrong row...

 

Also, sometimes, the airline computer will select better seats for you than you would.  On our flight from Bogota to Orlando, I was surprised it split our party of 4 into 2 rows. So, 2 of the 4 had Window seats and the other 2 had Middle seats.   However, on the way back, when I was able to do our Online Check in Orlando, I didn't like the seats the Avianca system had assigned to us and I changed them for the best seats that were available at that time.  

 

If someone does not have a valid Boarding Pass, and they go to the airport to get one before the flight, from one of those Kiosk machines, and there is an issue, that is where they need to   go to the Ticket Counter, immediately.  

 

There are many other reasons that a flight could be Oversold. An Equipment Change is one of those. For example, Avianca has 3 sizes of Airbus A320 series aircraft. The A320 and the smaller A319 and the larger A321.  If they had sold seats, planning for a larger version to be used that day on that flight, and then they had to substitute an aircraft with fewer seats, there could be an issue.  That is one reason I prefer to fly with a carrier like Avianca, large enough to have some "Spare" aircraft available, in case an aircraft needs to go in for unscheduled maintenance.                

[Paige]

 

 

The man who was removed violated two (2) laws which are things one MUST NEVER do:  First, he disobeyed members of the Aircraft Crew. That's a Federal crime.  Secondly, if the people who removed him were actually Police Officers, he disobeyed Police Officers, which is something one MUST NEVER do and is also a violation.

 

 

 

I see it as a case of civil disobedience. He was protesting the policy and making a statement. The shocking violence in the video against an elderly man who was just trying to sit is what will create public outrage (it has already) and hopefully get the laws/policies changed so this doesn't happen again. 

 

He may have known full well that he would or could be arrested but on principle decided to take the hit. I say good for him! Airlines have been treating customers terribly for years and for some reason the airline business has the power of police and federal law behind them which allows them to do whatever the heck they want. It's time for them to get some of that power checked. 

[Lanny]

My ds17 is flying by himself for the first time this summer on United. I had to explain all of this to him even though it probably won't happen to him, but it could. He's already aware of just how bad things can go with the TSA so, yeah, I'm appalled with what happened.

 

As I told my wife and DD today. The passenger involved made two (2) mistakes: First, he did not comply with the orders he received from the Flight Crew. That is a violation of Federal Law. Secondly, if the people were removed him from the aircraft were actually Police Officers, one must comply with their orders.  Not to do so can land one in jail, with charges...

 

United was IMO absolutely and  totally horrible, with what happened in Chicago last night. I thought about sending a Tweet to the CEO of United, but others have written Tweets that are so much better than anything I could have written to him.   :hurray:

 

In general, I would tell your DS to go through Security in the airport ASAP (never dilly dally in Public areas, for Security reasons) and go to the Gate ASAP. Listen carefully to the announcements, in case there is a Gate Change for his flight. Pay absolute attention to the Safety announcements aboard the aircraft.

 

Since his trip is in the Summer, it is unlikely there would be a diversion to an alternate airport, unless there is severe Thunderstorm activity at his destination airport. If there is a connection involved, this is where I would be concerned with my DD going to the USA by herself, I would try to prepare for different eventualities of what could/might happen, if he misconnected and had to stay overnight in a city where he was not planning to be. Or, simply misconnecting and needing to be reaccomodated.   What to do if his baggage is lost. NEVER put medicines, jewelry, valuables, important papers in checked baggage. Etc.  

 

Probably everything will go perfectly. 

[Lanny]

I see it as a case of civil disobedience. He was protesting the policy and making a statement. The shocking violence in the video against an elderly man who was just trying to sit is what will create public outrage (it has already) and hopefully get the laws/policies changed so this doesn't happen again. 

 

He may have known full well that he would or could be arrested but on principle decided to take the hit. I say good for him! Airlines have been treating customers terribly for years and for some reason the airline business has the power of police and federal law behind them which allows them to do whatever the heck they want. It's time for them to get some of that power checked. 

 

Civil Disobedience aboard a Civil Turbojet Aircraft is a Federal Crime. Interference with a Flight Crew is a Federal Crime.  There are other places one can make their point, but the inside of a Civil Turbojet is not one of those places. That's the way it is in the USA, that's the way it is here in Colombia, and I hope that is the way it is in any civilized country.

[Paige]

Civil Disobedience aboard a Civil Turbojet Aircraft is a Federal Crime. Interference with a Flight Crew is a Federal Crime.  There are other places one can make their point, but the inside of a Civil Turbojet is not one of those places. That's the way it is in the USA, that's the way it is here in Colombia, and I hope that is the way it is in any civilized country.

 

Isn't civil disobedience usually a crime? Maybe not always federal, but I think it's usually something that you expect to have the potential to be arrested for. 

Always get your Boarding Passes as soon as the airline's system permits and check-in online.  Normally, that will protect you. 

 

 

I don't think it does -- if the airline can't get volunteers to relinquish their tickets, there's a complicated process for selecting victims to involuntarily deny boarding, which usually involves how much is paid for the tickets, what class they are in, if they are connecting to an international flight, frequent flyer status etc.

 

So, my question stands:

 

If checking-in online with a printed boarded pass in hand doesn't guarantee you a seat, what's the point?

[Lanny]

Aboard a Civil Turbojet it could easily lead to a monetary fine and some time living in a Federal Prison. Being added to the No Fly List would be the least painful part of the consequences

 

 

Sent from my SM-G355M using Tapatalk

[trulycrabby]

New Photo of United Airlines asking for volunteers to deplane: https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/64leom/new_photo_of_united_airlines_asking_for/

[Rachel]

I think I would be concerned about the safety of flying with a crew with such a tiny portion of brain cells. I'm sticking with Delta.

Delta has their own issues. Storms on Wednesday caused a mess at their Atlanta hub. My husband was scheduled to fly home from Houston on Friday, the earliest flight they could book him on was Sunday! When he attempted to rebook his original flight, all 4 phone numbers he had for Delta gave him a recording "sorry this number cannot be completed as dialed". He ended up flying Southwest, renting a car, then driving the last 3.5 hours instead. He ended up arriving home earlier than his original flight was scheduled to get him home. This is one is a series of issues he has personally had with Delta over the past few months.

[goldberry]

 

Why Delta Air Lines Paid Me $11,000 Not To Fly To Florida This Weekend

 

And that's how it should be done.  Keep upping the offer until you get the volunteers.  I wonder if since the airline knew they were bumping for employees (non-paying customers they didn't make money from) that is why they stopped at $800.  No way would $800 make me get off a plane when I was already seated.

 

Big mistake!  Those videos/memes are hilarious.  United is going to regret this.

[TechWife]

 

Instead of overbooking, why don't just refuse to issue refunds? If you pay for the flight and then don't show up, you don't get your money back. Actually, I thought that was pretty standard, anyway.

 

 

 

Many business travelers have last minute changes to their travel plans. They pay a premium price to be able to get refundable tickets. A typical person who can plan ahead for their travel to go on vacation or other personal travel may pay $500 for a non-refundable ticket, but that same trip will cost a business traveler $3000 or more. The increased price is for booking later and for the privilege of being able to refund that ticket if their trip is cancelled. The airline can make more money from that refundable ticket when it is used and this more than makes up their cost if they happen to fly a plane with an empty seat (due to a cancellation) on another trip. Without a refund policy, business travel would greatly decrease and the effects to the airlines could be devastating, not to mention the effects on the overall economy when you factor in lost business due to the inability to get last minute flights at low risk to the businesses that purchase these tickets. 

[meena]

If the employees were pilots (and from what I've read today there is apparently a pilot shortage), those employees represent a plane full of paying customers which can't fly unless the pilots can get to the departure airport.  Lack of a pilot can cause a loss of a lot more than $11,000.

 

As I understand it, it is somewhat routine for airline staff to live in a different city than their "home base" departure city.  They commute by flying 'deadhead' on regular flights from their city to their home base.  

 

In addition, most of the time overbooked flights don't entail bumping passengers, as some people don't show.  So the occasional payment to incentivize voluntary bumps has to be weighed against all the times that filling those otherwise-empty seats through overbooking created positive revenue.  (Say a ticket costs $250.  So if the average flight has 4 no-shows, the airline may decide to overbook all flights by four people.  On most flights, that will work out, generating an extra $1000.  A small number of flights will need to pay bumped passengers, but the airlines try to make the best guess at the numbers so that the revenue gained by filling otherwise-empty seats is greater than the loss through bumping payments.) 

 

Every flight has quite a lot of largely-fixed costs.  The pilots, flight attendants, fuel, airport fees, booking agents, baggage handlers, and so on have to get paid whether the flight is full or half-empty.  The closer the airline runs to every-seat-full, the more likely they can make a profit (and thus survive in the market).

 

The bolded part is not accurate. Pilots do frequently live other than where they're based. But they are responsible for getting to/from their base city. That is considered commuting. The airline doesn't schedule those flights or guarantee an available seat for commuting pilots in most cases (exceptions made sometimes for training events or the like). The pilot is not officially on duty or paid while commuting.

 

Deadheading is where a pilot ends a trip in one city and the next trip originates in a different city. For example, a pilot may fly from Chicago to Philadelphia but the pilot's next trip may start out of Detroit. The company is responsible for getting the pilot to Detroit, so the trip from Philadelphia to Detroit is deadheading. A pilot is officially on duty and being paid while deadheading. Depending on the contract, deadheading pilots may not be required or allowed to sit in the cockpit jumpseat. Most people aren't familiar with what a jumpseat is like. It's fairly tiny, crowded, and can be loud. If a pilot has a long day ahead after the deadhead, it's sometimes a safer and smarter choice to avoid the jumpseat in order to have a restful deadhead. Deadheading pilots are considered "must ride" meaning they take precedence over revenue passengers.

 

There are a lot of time/rest issues involved in getting crews placed correctly. If a crew is scheduled to deadhead on a certain flight, if they don't make it on the flight they may time out by the time the next flight is scheduled to depart. Or they may time out as soon as they get to the city and can't complete the flight that originates there. There are very complex scheduling and rest requirements that make the issue way more difficult than just send them on the next flight. One displaced crew may impact dozens of flights.

 

With all that said, it's sad that they had to forcibly remove a passenger. From what I've read the airport security guard (not a United employee) who removed him did not follow protocol and is being investigated. 

[TechWife]

I totally agree.  DH was offered $300 last week to stay one more night for a business trip.  You're lucky if that would cover expenses for 1 night.  If you are missing work, have kids, plus overnight expenses, etc even $800 may not be worth it after covering everything you need to cover. 

 

My husband's employer would have covered the hotel if the airline had not covered it and he would have been allowed to keep the vouchers (as he does frequent flier miles). However, he would never voluntarily miss a business flight - it would wreck havoc with his schedule. If he were bumped due to an oversell situation, the employer would understand, but it would not be acceptable for him to voluntarily take the change. 

 

If you are bumped early enough in the day, you can often get a flight to your destination later in the day. The time of day, the designation (or even general direction - east to west or west to east) and  the length of the flight directly impact whether or not you can get a seat on another flight the same day. 

[meena]

I find it interesting that so many people (not necessarily here, but in general) aren't aware that overbooking and involuntarily bumping passengers off of flights is federally allowed by the DOT. When you buy a ticket you are not 100% guaranteed the flight you have purchased. https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights

 

[TechWife]

Right. Being doctor doesn't make him more special than the person going to a funeral or the person getting home to a sick relative or the person trying to get a job interview or...

 

And if that starts being used as the bar, people are going to start claiming all kinds of reasons and then what? Now we should carry proof of why our flight is important so we can compare who deserves to keep the seat they already paid for? That nuts.

 

Usually if you claim some type of privilege on the airline, you have to prove you deserve that privilege. It's highly likely he had to prove that he's an MD before he was allowed to re-board. If you are lucky enough to get a discounted ticket due to flying for a funeral or critically ill relative, you must provide proof - the name of the funeral home or hospital (and yes, they do check). So, many people already do provide proof that they are flying for critical reasons. 

 

This fact doesn't mean I don't disagree with you, it's just a fact that this already occurs. 

[meena]

I can also say that if a passenger is asked to deplane (for whatever reason deemed appropriate by employees) and refuses, the flight crew will involve the authorities. That is their right for the safety of the crew and passengers.

[hopskipjump]

There is another video in the link below. When the man apparently came back into the plane and stood there holding onto that beam for dear life, blood streaming down his face.

 

That isn't the face of a guy who looks like he was raising hell on the plane the way United was originally leading people to believe. :/

 

I'm so disgusted by that entire scenario. Disgusted. I am glad that some left the plane I protest and wonder why more people weren't clamoring after the man and his abductors.

 

We are all so afraid to even sneeze on an airplane anymore.

 

I don't know... I'm sad. And frustrated.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4396986/Passengers-film-moment-police-drag-man-United-plane.html

Edited April 11, 2017 by hopskipjump

[luuknam]

I find it interesting that so many people (not necessarily here, but in general) aren't aware that overbooking and involuntarily bumping passengers off of flights is federally allowed by the DOT. When you buy a ticket you are not 100% guaranteed the flight you have purchased. https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights

 

 

Just because they legally can, doesn't mean that they legally should be able to (some laws are just wrong), nor that it makes for good PR.

 

ETA: either ban overbooking, or allow airlines to overbook but then require that the only way they can bump people is voluntarily - i.e. make them pay as much as it takes for someone to volunteer.

Edited April 11, 2017 by luuknam

[meena]

Just because they legally can, doesn't mean that they legally should be able to (some laws are just wrong), nor that it makes for good PR.

 

ETA: either ban overbooking, or allow airlines to overbook but then require that the only way they can bump people is voluntarily - i.e. make them pay as much as it takes for someone to volunteer.

 

What if no one volunteers?

[creekland]

Haven't flown on United since 2006, esp since I've heard oodles of bad stories about them since then.  Definitely not changing my mind now either.

 

Love the (extra) videos and pics that have come about from this though!

 

And I'm thinking United could use some "Creative Coaches!"   :lol:

[luuknam]

What if no one volunteers?

 

 

You up the incentive. Really, at some price point someone will volunteer. If not at $800, then maybe at $1500, or at $3000, etc. In extremely rare cases, the amount might be really high... but that's the risk the airline is taking by overbooking. If they want to avoid that risk, don't overbook. Of course, right now they can have their cake and eat it too, the way the law is... which is just wrong and unfair.

[OneStepAtATime]

This is really neither here nor there but DH flies all.the.time.  He used to fly mainly Continental.  Until they were taken over by United.  Over and over, after the change, his flights were delayed/baggage lost/flights cancelled/flights overbooked, etc.  It was at least 70% of his flights that SOMETHING would go wrong.  Staff were frequently rude.  He finally gave up and switched to American Airlines.  Are there still issues upon occasion?  Of course.  Sometimes. Things happen.   But not NEARLY to the level that United was at.  It has been a night and day difference.    

[TechWife]

The error here was United's - they never should have put the employees who were deadheaded on standby if they intended to bump paying passengers. They should have confirmed the seats and then let paying passengers go on standby if they wanted to do so. I wouldn't be surprised at all if those same employees took that same flight on a regular basis, even daily. It isn't desirable that airlines deadhead employees because it costs them money, but it does happen on a regular basis. Sometimes it's due to the way the schedule has to fall with a destination, other times it is due to delays causing employees to time out of their allowed flight time. They may be in City A, need to be in City B the next morning, but due to a delay getting into City A, they aren't allowed to work a flight to get them to City B. Therefore, the employees have to be transported at the airline's expense. Deadheading can happen at the last minute due to delayed flights, but when a flight is en route, at some point it becomes obvious that the crew will time out and be deadheaded. The airline should take advantage of that time lag and reroute paying passengers accordingly or find alternative transportation for the crew.  It is possible that the gate attendants weren't notified they needed to accommodate crew before they began boarding the plane, which would necessitate them trying to get volunteers after everyone was seated. I certainly hope this was not a scheduled event for those crew members. 

 

I think it's too late for me to be posting - I'm jumping around. I see where it's possible that the flight schedules of the employees were changed at the last minute, causing them to deadhead. But, there are also many times when it is known in advance and the airlines need to plan accordingly. They also need alternatives available to them if they are not able to get crew on a plane. What would they have done if that plane had already pushed back from the gate? I imagine, I don't know, that they would have booked the crew on a different flight or provided ground transportation. Other crew could also have been called in to take any flight that the scheduled crew would miss. Yes, it is a cascade effect. Maybe they should change the timing of initiation of those alternate plans from the push back to the boarding call.  

[frogger]

I have a feeling the higher price of tickets would have people complaining and just wait until a pile up on the freeway makes a whole slew of people miss their flight. The PR in dealing with people making them pay for flights they couldn't take would be horrible. I'm also imagining an accident shutting down the only freeway into town and my family eating the cost of six tickets! I've always been hours earlier than the recommended arrival time but stuff happens (especially accidents) that takes hours. We have never missed a flight but cripes it would be nice to have a little leeway. So changing the missed flight policy to be so strict would still make everyone unhappy.

 

That being said, this was not handled well at all. I am spoiled and will only fly Alaska Air. Delta does not have as great of service so if it is a leap up from United, eee yuck. But this incident was over the top messed up.

[meena]

You up the incentive. Really, at some price point someone will volunteer. If not at $800, then maybe at $1500, or at $3000, etc. In extremely rare cases, the amount might be really high... but that's the risk the airline is taking by overbooking. If they want to avoid that risk, don't overbook. Of course, right now they can have their cake and eat it too, the way the law is... which is just wrong and unfair.

 

Would you be willing to pay significantly more per ticket on an average domestic flight to cover this? Most people wouldn't. That's why airlines use algorithms to try to get flights as close to exact capacity as possible. As someone said earlier, there are many fixed costs that an airline has to cover whether there's one passenger or a full flight. It makes financial and environmental sense to fly at maximum capacity. Unfortunately an algorithm can only attempt to predict; real life happens which means that there are times when people won't make it on. It also doesn't account for the necessity of moving flight crews, which is constantly changing. Only people who work in the industry see the constant changes and movements that crews do behind the scenes. In certain instances a deadheading flight crew can tip the numbers from at-capacity to too-many-passengers, as it seems happened in this instance.

 

Most people don't understand how airline routes and schedules work and subsequently think that it's simple to get a flight at capacity without overselling. It's not that easy, especially for huge airlines that have a complex, international route structure that is also coordinated with partner and regional airlines. 

[meena]

The error here was United's - they never should have put the employees who were deadheaded on standby if they intended to bump paying passengers. They should have confirmed the seats and then let paying passengers go on standby if they wanted to do so. I wouldn't be surprised at all if those same employees took that same flight on a regular basis, even daily. It isn't desirable that airlines deadhead employees because it costs them money, but it does happen on a regular basis. Sometimes it's due to the way the schedule has to fall with a destination, other times it is due to delays causing employees to time out of their allowed flight time. They may be in City A, need to be in City B the next morning, but due to a delay getting into City A, they aren't allowed to work a flight to get them to City B. Therefore, the employees have to be transported at the airline's expense. Deadheading can happen at the last minute due to delayed flights, but when a flight is en route, at some point it becomes obvious that the crew will time out and be deadheaded. The airline should take advantage of that time lag and reroute paying passengers accordingly or find alternative transportation for the crew.  It is possible that the gate attendants weren't notified they needed to accommodate crew before they began boarding the plane, which would necessitate them trying to get volunteers after everyone was seated. I certainly hope this was not a scheduled event for those crew members. 

 

I think it's too late for me to be posting - I'm jumping around. I see where it's possible that the flight schedules of the employees were changed at the last minute, causing them to deadhead. But, there are also many times when it is known in advance and the airlines need to plan accordingly. They also need alternatives available to them if they are not able to get crew on a plane. What would they have done if that plane had already pushed back from the gate? I imagine, I don't know, that they would have booked the crew on a different flight or provided ground transportation. Other crew could also have been called in to take any flight that the scheduled crew would miss. Yes, it is a cascade effect. Maybe they should change the timing of initiation of those alternate plans from the push back to the boarding call.  

 

That first paragraph is not at all accurate. If a crew has already timed out or will time out during the deadhead, they cannot deadhead. Deadheading pilots are on duty (just riding not flying), and they cannot be on duty after timing out. They can get their license pulled for doing that. 

 

Editing to add: There's no way the same employees would be deadheading on the same flight on a regular basis. Pilot schedules change every month and are based on schedules that the company has built each month and are bid on based on seniority. Trips and pairings vary so much, especially at a legacy like United, that there's no statistical way that the same crew would be DH on the same flights with any kind of regularity.

Edited April 11, 2017 by meena

[creekland]

This is really neither here nor there but DH flies all.the.time.  He used to fly mainly Continental.  Until they were taken over by United.  Over and over, after the change, his flights were delayed/baggage lost/flights cancelled/flights overbooked, etc.  It was at least 70% of his flights that SOMETHING would go wrong.  Staff were frequently rude.  He finally gave up and switched to American Airlines.  Are there still issues upon occasion?  Of course.  Sometimes. Things happen.   But not NEARLY to the level that United was at.  It has been a night and day difference.    

 

Yes, in my circles, United has a horrible reputation already.  This just adds more bricks on that camel's back.  I know several who wouldn't mind seeing them go out of business (due to personal bad experiences), but as long as folks continue to fly with them - they get what they pay for.  There are other airlines...  As I said before, we haven't flown with them since 2006 due to listening to others.

[Joker]

I find it interesting that so many people (not necessarily here, but in general) aren't aware that overbooking and involuntarily bumping passengers off of flights is federally allowed by the DOT. When you buy a ticket you are not 100% guaranteed the flight you have purchased. https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights

 

I don't really think most don't know this. I think pretty much everyone is appalled at how United handled it this time, though. United offering $800 is really very little in comparison to what I've seen other airlines offer to get passengers to voluntarily travel later. I, and dh especially, have been on many overbooked flights and there is always a price some passengers are willing to accept to give up their seat. I've never had a flight need to use a random draw and force people to give it up. That shouldn't be accepted as normal and okay.

[solascriptura]

This is just horrible.  I have expressed my extreme displeasure through FB and their website.  I'll be looking for other ways to let them know how dispicable their employees acted.  I hope that all of you on this board will give them a tongue lashing with big words that they might not be able  to understand!  How could they treat any individual with such violence?  

[EmilyGF]

I don't really think most don't know this. I think pretty much everyone is appalled at how United handled it this time, though. United offering $800 is really very little in comparison to what I've seen other airlines offer to get passengers to voluntarily travel later. I, and dh especially, have been on many overbooked flights and there is always a price some passengers are willing to accept to give up their seat. I've never had a flight need to use a random draw and force people to give it up. That shouldn't be accepted as normal and okay.

Compare United to Delta paying $11,000 for a family not to fly to Florida.

 

$800 if you're going to be rebooked that night or early the next morning makes sense. But the price needs to be higher for such a long delay. Delta got it right. United failed the test.

FWIW, my husband travels a lot and he made a comment tonight about being sick of United. This was a lot more costly than raising the payback rate.

 

Emily

[ErinE]

He was only allowed back on to get his things; he was accompanied by security, and was taken back off the plane. He was later taken to the hospital. The flight left without him.

 

Did you see the video of him back on the plane? Blood streaming down his chin and he kept repeating, "Just kill me."

 

I have stories, but since none approach this man's ordeal, all I can say is I loathe United.

[Joker]

Compare United to Delta paying $11,000 for a family not to fly to Florida.

 

$800 if you're going to be rebooked that night or early the next morning makes sense. But the price needs to be higher for such a long delay. Delta got it right. United failed the test.

FWIW, my husband travels a lot and he made a comment tonight about being sick of United. This was a lot more costly than raising the payback rate.

 

Emily

 

Yeah, I would never trust an airline to actually be able to follow through on the rebooking though so I think $800 isn't enough.  :tongue_smilie:  Dh has often been tempted to take the offer but I never believe the next flight will actually work out. 

[catz]

So I just saw this on Twitter.  It's a photo of a letter the CEO of United sent to it's employees today explaining the situation in his words

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/851582817217761280

 

Anyway, it details that the flight was fully boarded when gate agents were approached by crew that needed to board.  In point 2, it says he was told apologetically he was being denied boarding.  That doesn't even make sense.  He was on the plane and had a seat.  Do they actually use those words when approaching a passenger on the plane?

 

Sorry, this is 100% on the airline.  With a fully loaded plane, this is where you need to pull out the big moolah and incentives until you get your willing volunteers and you should have gate agents researching other options while those negotiations are going down.  It's different if you're not boarded and you hit a ceiling of incentives or just don't allow check in by the last few or what ever.  Pulling a paid customer out of a seat who only became belligerent after you were an a$$ to him does not justify forced removal and in this case assault.  The more I think about this, the more disgusted I am. 

 

 

[solascriptura]

Look.  I'm asian and I'm not even going to pull the race card.  The VIOLENCE used is the problem.  Fine.  They needed the seats.  They should continue to up the ante until someone accepts.  They should have never boarded these poor people if they couldn't fly them.  They can justify this any way that they want, but explain the violence used.  Where do we live?  China?  North Korea?  Russia?  please.

[TechWife]

That first paragraph is not at all accurate. If a crew has already timed out or will time out during the deadhead, they cannot deadhead. Deadheading pilots are on duty (just riding not flying), and they cannot be on duty after timing out. They can get their license pulled for doing that. 

 

Editing to add: There's no way the same employees would be deadheading on the same flight on a regular basis. Pilot schedules change every month and are based on schedules that the company has built each month and are bid on based on seniority. Trips and pairings vary so much, especially at a legacy like United, that there's no statistical way that the same crew would be DH on the same flights with any kind of regularity.

 

Thank you for the correction. 

 

I will say that there have been times my husband flies the same routes as a passenger regularly and he has gotten to know (on a casual basis) many crew members because they fly the same route on the same schedule. For example he once flew into ORD on the same flight every two weeks for two years. So yes, I do think it's possible for the same crew members to end up in same place on a regular basis even if the complete crew doesn't stay intact. 

[meena]

I don't really think most don't know this. I think pretty much everyone is appalled at how United handled it this time, though. United offering $800 is really very little in comparison to what I've seen other airlines offer to get passengers to voluntarily travel later. I, and dh especially, have been on many overbooked flights and there is always a price some passengers are willing to accept to give up their seat. I've never had a flight need to use a random draw and force people to give it up. That shouldn't be accepted as normal and okay.

 

Based on what I've read, many people are calling involuntary bumping fraud. But if it is legal and a person agrees to enter into a contract (buying a ticket) knowing that it's a possibility, how can it be fraud? That's was more what I was getting at. I think that it's like any other kind of agreement--many people don't read or are aware of the fine print because most of the time it doesn't apply to them. When it does apply they raise hell and argue about fraud and how their rights are being trampled.

 

I'm appalled at how the airport security handled this. Once they realized they could not get the passenger off without using unreasonable force, they should have had United deplane everyone and proceed from there.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Did you see the video of him back on the plane? Blood streaming down his chin and he kept repeating, "Just kill me."

 

I have stories, but since none approach this man's ordeal, all I can say is I loathe United.

Just adding onto this post. - the article I read from Time magazine said that he got by security and came back onto the flight while disoriented. He was escorted off again peacefully and taken to the hospital.

[meena]

Thank you for the correction. 

 

I will say that there have been times my husband flies the same routes as a passenger regularly and he has gotten to know (on a casual basis) many crew members because they fly the same route on the same schedule. For example he once flew into ORD on the same flight every two weeks for two years. So yes, I do think it's possible for the same crew members to end up in same place on a regular basis even if the complete crew doesn't stay intact. 

 

Most likely your husband was riding with commuters. They regularly are on the same flights because they always have the same start (home city-->base city) or end (base city-->home city). Commuters usually fly in uniform, so it's hard to distinguish whether they are commuting or deadheading.

This is really neither here nor there but DH flies all.the.time.  He used to fly mainly Continental.  Until they were taken over by United.  Over and over, after the change, his flights were delayed/baggage lost/flights cancelled/flights overbooked, etc.  It was at least 70% of his flights that SOMETHING would go wrong.  Staff were frequently rude.  He finally gave up and switched to American Airlines.  Are there still issues upon occasion?  Of course.  Sometimes. Things happen.   But not NEARLY to the level that United was at.  It has been a night and day difference.    

 

Few people have noticed that the flight in question was actually a United Express flight, not operated by United proper, but contracted out by United, and operated by the regional carrier Republic Airlines.  Yes, the ticket was sold by United, and it is United's ultimate responsibility, but Republic operates these jets for United Express, American Eagle, and Delta Connection, so there may be less of a difference between brands than people think.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

OK so I am wondering if the security guy who pulled him out of his seat knew the reason why he was removing a passenger.

 

Maybe he thought the guy had done something wrong or made someone think he was a threat.

 

As far as the cameras - I personally would rather not have had that footage of myself all over the internet. It would have been better for those folks to turn the videos over to the man privately or to the cops.

If he didn't know why he was forcibly removing someone from a seat he should be immediately fired for being a moron.

 

As it stands, he should be fired for being an abusive ahole.

[meena]

If he didn't know why he was forcibly removing someone from a seat he should be immediately fired for being a moron.

 

As it stands, he should be fired for being an abusive ahole.

 

This, times a million!

[luuknam]

Would you be willing to pay significantly more per ticket on an average domestic flight to cover this? 

 

 

Yes, though I really doubt the cost increase would be that significant. One of the articles linked in this thread that something like 46,000 people get bumped involuntarily per year. We don't know how much in extra incentives would have had to be offered to get those people (or others on the same flight) to voluntarily give up their seats, but 46,000 out of 820,000,000 people flying per year* means roughly 1 per 17,800 gets bumped involuntarily. So if you made every ticket $1 more expensive, you could offer each of those 46,000 people (or others on their same flight) $17,800 to voluntarily give up their seat (and that's not counting the money they already offered before they involuntarily bumped them). I seriously doubt you'd have to offer that much that often - maybe sometimes, but I think that would be rare.

 

*Got number of people flying in the US per day from this, and then multiplied by 365: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/by_the_numbers/

[meena]

Few people have noticed that the flight in question was actually a United Express flight, not operated by United proper, but contracted out by United, and operated by the regional carrier Republic Airlines.  Yes, the ticket was sold by United, and it is United's ultimate responsibility, but Republic operates these jets for United Express, American Eagle, and Delta Connection, so there may be less of a difference between brands than people think.

 

I thought that possibly it was one of the regionals but hadn't read anything to confirm that. Many people assume that they are flying whatever airline has their logo on the tail. It's not that simple.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I agree united could have handled the situation much better. However, I don't really know that United can be held responsible for the police officers assault. I had at first assumed they were airline/airport security. If I call the cops and they come assault someone, I don't want the blame for it. The whole thing is just completely crazy.

Oh they certainly can be. Their moronic actions led to the assault.

[catz]

Yes, though I really doubt the cost increase would be that significant. One of the articles linked in this thread that something like 46,000 people get bumped involuntarily per year. We don't know how much in extra incentives would have had to be offered to get those people (or others on the same flight) to voluntarily give up their seats, but 46,000 out of 820,000,000 people flying per year* means roughly 1 per 17,800 gets bumped involuntarily. So if you made every ticket $1 more expensive, you could offer each of those 46,000 people (or others on their same flight) $17,800 to voluntarily give up their seat (and that's not counting the money they already offered before they involuntarily bumped them). I seriously doubt you'd have to offer that much that often - maybe sometimes, but I think that would be rare.

 

*Got number of people flying in the US per day from this, and then multiplied by 365: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/by_the_numbers/

 

:iagree: Many airlines regularly offer more as it stands now anyway.  Oscar Munoz makes 6.7 million dollars a year.  Maybe he could back off on his luxury lifestyle a teeny tiny bit.  But I won't hold my breath on that.

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I can also say that if a passenger is asked to deplane (for whatever reason deemed appropriate by employees) and refuses, the flight crew will involve the authorities. That is their right for the safety of the crew and passengers.

And it is my right to tell the airline staff they are a pack of festering ***holes for not managing their process better.