Home'scool Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) Just in case anyone is following my saga ..... and a saga it is turning out to be :huh: We just cannot seem to agree on anything and now probably have to go to court. There are not a lot of moving parts to our situation, but he just doesn't want to give me anything! My budget has two things on it that he is fighting: Savings and Rent Savings : At my age I can contribute $6500 to a retirement fund, so I budgeted $540 a month towards this. He does not think this should be part of living expenses that he is held accountable for. Rent: I don't actually "pay" rent because I live with my sister in and in-law apartment, but the money I was budgeting for was to be put in a household account monthly so that I can help out with anything with the house: roof, septic, whatever. His position is I am not actually paying rent and therefore should not be part of any budget he is accountable for. He basically is taking advantage of my sister's good heart and using that as an out not to pay me. I got so mad I told him that I would either move out and then he would have to take into account rent, or that once the house is sold he has to move in with family to free up more money for me. His lawyer said this was a child support case and not an alimony case. My youngest is 19. He wants to pay child support at some ridiculously low cost for two years and then nothing else. Anything I ask for he categorizes as me acting "entitled". We were married for 28 years. He makes close to $200K a year. I make $45K. My lawyer is just astounded at the position he is taking. I am hoping a judge sees it closer to what I am asking for. If we do go to court I am asking for a lot more things than I am asking for now. Right now I only am asking for half his 401K and a percentage of his salary. If we go to court I am going to ask for those things, a percentage of his bonuses, and a percentage of his parent's house that has his name on the deed. Let him chew on all of that. Edited November 28, 2016 by Home'scool 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 (hugs) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
displace Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 :(. Sounds frustrating and upsetting. It may be better to have the lawyer ask for more, so if you get less than that you'll still be ok. I hear that divorce can really change a spouse's behavior and makes a lot of financial things difficult. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthwestMom Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: I'm glad you have a good lawyer. Don't back down on money you will need to survive later! 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 On the rent........... it's probably best to actually pay rent to your sister and then have her put it in a fund for the things mentioned.......... unless your lawyer advises differently. 33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBJones Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I second that it's wonderful you have a good lawyer. Definitely get everything you can get after 28 years of marriage. What a total jerk! :smash: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinivanMom Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 On the rent........... it's probably best to actually pay rent to your sister and then have her put it in a fund for the things mentioned.......... unless your lawyer advises differently. I agree. Do you have a good lawyer that you trust to fight for you? Your best course is to follow his advice since he knows your state law and the atmosphere of the local family courts better than you. I think now is probably also the time to let all communication and demands go through the lawyer. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 :grouphug: I hope this works out for you and I hope it works out soon. No one needs this crap dragging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinE Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I've followed your saga and I'm not surprised his "I'll be reasonable" spiel has turned into more. It often happens. Be careful releasing too much information about strategy online. It could be monitored. Alimony depends on the state. If you're due alimony and it's dependent on living expenses, I'd pay rent to my relative as advised above. Even if only his name is on the deed, if it's a community property state, you're probably due a portion of the value. Given the length of marriage and disparity in income, don't try to be "fair" to your soon-to-be ex. Be fair to yourself. 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Were you married when he was training for that $200k a year job? Unfortunately in some states alimony is very rare. Remember also that you are entitled to file for SS under his account when you reach full retirement since you were married 10+ years. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Home'scool Posted November 28, 2016 Author Share Posted November 28, 2016 I have tried for the last 9 months to be fair. HE is the one who asked for the divorce, HE is the one who had an affair for 1.5 years. His relationship with our daughters is tenuous at best due to all this. And when I try to explain that his willingness to finish up this divorce quickly and fairly affects how his future relationship with the girls go, he completely disagrees. They have personally told him that if he doesn't respect me and treat me fairly that they will write him out of their lives. And still, he does not think one relates to another. It was my worst fear that our daughters would come out of this with no relationship with their father but after months of trying to work with him and explain all that to him, I give up. He can sink or swim at this point. See you in court Satan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madteaparty Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) Your lawyer should not be astounded. It happens like this every. Single. Time. In fact it makes me a little uneasy your attorney seems surprised by this. Think of the most unreasonable, mean-spirited position you can imagine and then multiply by 10. Stand your ground. Your character will be questioned and you will be called names. Don't try to reason. State your position and stick to it. There will be time to process this trauma later on. I'm so sorry you have to go through this. You are getting a portion of his 401k, correct? Do you have the universe of all accounts available to you? If you have doubts, look into a forensic accountant. Eta that I'm not a divorce attorney and don't give legal advice on the Internets. I keep coming back to edit. If you have to go to court because of their unwillingness to be reasonable, then see if your attorney will make a motion for your legal fees to be paid by your ex. At the very least, they should be in proportion to your relative income. Even if you lose, the prospect for your ex to pay his and your legal fees might persuade him to see some sense. I would further start paying my sister rent. And get comps for what it would cost for you to rent an apartment. I hope your attorney is telling you all these things. Remember when we told you not to move from your house? He would have been more than willing to pay your rent vs your mortgage, no? You have to live somewhere. No matter. Now you know. Edited November 28, 2016 by madteaparty 19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) I am not surprised one bit by any of this. I am sorry though. I was married for 26 years and my now xh was the same toward me. I asked for alimony for 8 years until our son was 18 and he wouldn't even agree to that. It is a sickening feeling I know, but things will get better. Some people advise to just agree in order to save the stress of fighting. My position though was that I would prefer a judge tell me how to divide then it be in the hands of my selfish uncaring stbxh. Court wasn't fantastic to me but it was at least moderately fair. Edited November 28, 2016 by Scarlett 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Home'scool Posted November 28, 2016 Author Share Posted November 28, 2016 Were you married when he was training for that $200k a year job? Unfortunately in some states alimony is very rare. Remember also that you are entitled to file for SS under his account when you reach full retirement since you were married 10+ years. When we first married we had NOTHING. He had a construction company that made very little, and when it went under we went from very little to nothing. Over the years he slowly built his career and I always supported him in that. He needed to travel extensively and I always stayed home and took care of the house and kids. He needed to relocate twice and we all went with him. At certain points throughout the years he was almost transferred to Ireland and then once to Singapore. Both times I was willing to go with him, and he was able turn our willingness to move internationally into promotions for him. I've earned my keep. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Home'scool Posted November 28, 2016 Author Share Posted November 28, 2016 I am not surprised one bit by any of this. I am sorry though. I was married for 26 years and my now xh was the same toward me. I asked for alimony for 8 years until our son was 18 and he wouldn't even agree to that. It is a sickening feeling I know, but things will get better. Some people advise to just agree in order to save the stress of fighting. My position though was that I would prefer a judge tell me how to divide then it be in the hands of my selfish uncaring stbxh. Court wasn't fantastic to me but it was at least moderately fair. This is what I am hoping for too. I cannot imagine a judge looking at 28 years of marriage and such a difference in our salaries and not coming up with something a little more fair. I just hate hate hate that we have to spend the money to fight all this out. What a waste 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 This is what I am hoping for too. I cannot imagine a judge looking at 28 years of marriage and such a difference in our salaries and not coming up with something a little more fair. I just hate hate hate that we have to spend the money to fight all this out. What a waste The judge has to work with the laws in your state. That will impact his/her decisions immensely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RioSamba Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I have been following and am sorry but not surprised. I hope you have an excellent attorney, and that you are in a state with laws that recognize the equal contribution you've made to X's career. I'm sure you are talking to the attorney regarding the rent situation. You may be better positioned if you pay rent to your sister, or move, or not. Make sure you are running everything financial past your attorney! Hugs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 This is what I am hoping for too. I cannot imagine a judge looking at 28 years of marriage and such a difference in our salaries and not coming up with something a little more fair. I just hate hate hate that we have to spend the money to fight all this out. What a waste Well my XH was making over 100K and I was making zero. I was still only awarded 3 years alimony. What state are you in and have you done the research yourself on the actual law? And then just as important as the law is the judge and jurisdiction...in other words...'the customary way it is done.' Just know that it will not come out 'fair'. There is no way it can, but you should stand up for what is legally yours. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BooksandBoys Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) I'm not surprised, but I'm sad. I'm also excited to hear you angry and willing to fight for yourself! This is good! I'd pay market value rent to your sister starting today (market value for what you would live in if she were not available, not market value for a room in a house or an efficiency apartment...you have two daughters who would need room to visit in your apartment). Draw a contract up with your sister. Consider paying back rent if your lawyer thinks this is reasonable. Sadly, I am not at all surprised that he's claiming you have no rent expenses. I'd guess this was his plan (at the advice of his lawyer, probably) all along and that's why he encouraged you to move out of the family home. Edited to add: Hugs. Fight for yourself. You are worth every penny. And make him pay those legal fees. :-) Edited November 28, 2016 by BooksandBoys 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mothersweets Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 :grouphug: I hope it will work out to your benefit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I tried to send you a pm but it wouldn't go through for some reason..... Anyway I wanted to suggest a marriage/divorce support board for you. www.marriageadvocates.com 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I am so sorry. I have a friend that just came out of divorce, married 20 years, her income $0, his over $200K. She raised and is continuing to raise three kids. She got totally screwed. And yes, the three kids want nothing to do with him. Fight hard and ugly. I hate to say it, but that's the way it is. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I am glad you are fighting. Don't give up. He's going to try to wear you out/ turn people against you, ect. This fight is for a short time. The consequences of this fight will last the rest of your life, so fight on! 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I hate that we pretty much predicted this and turned out to be right. None of us wanted to be right. We wanted you to be treated fairly. Drat. Glad you are fighting mad at this point. Stay strong now! 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KS_ Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Well my XH was making over 100K and I was making zero. I was still only awarded 3 years alimony. What state are you in and have you done the research yourself on the actual law? And then just as important as the law is the judge and jurisdiction...in other words...'the customary way it is done.' Just know that it will not come out 'fair'. There is no way it can, but you should stand up for what is legally yours. I agree that it won't come out fair, but hopefully you are in a state that is more fair than some others. After 18 years of marriage, his income 60K+, mine 0 - the state I was in still imputes the non working spouse's income at full-time, minimum wage (so when they figure out child support, it automatically showed me with that much income, even though that wasn't the case, and hadn't been - and no alimony at all). I think it's awful that there's no consideration for the sacrifices the stay-at-home spouse made and then they are penalized for putting their trust in the wrong person. I did everything "right" I think in trying to ensure that things were as fair as possible according to the law in my state, but even after that, and all the money spent on fighting, it still was not very equitable at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kewb Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I am sorry it has come to this, but not surprised. Most people do no have a conscious uncoupling. Make sure your attorney is a shark. You should be getting half of his bonuses and half of his 401k. Get a signed rent agreement with your sister right now. Pay market value for an apartment that is big enough for you and the children. Pay back rent if your attorney feels this is necessary. You need to be prepared for this to get even uglier and fight for what you deserve. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I agree that it won't come out fair, but hopefully you are in a state that is more fair than some others. After 18 years of marriage, his income 60K+, mine 0 - the state I was in still imputes the non working spouse's income at full-time, minimum wage (so when they figure out child support, it automatically showed me with that much income, even though that wasn't the case, and hadn't been - and no alimony at all). I think it's awful that there's no consideration for the sacrifices the stay-at-home spouse made and then they are penalized for putting their trust in the wrong person. I did everything "right" I think in trying to ensure that things were as fair as possible according to the law in my state, but even after that, and all the money spent on fighting, it still was not very equitable at all. That makes my blood boil. Thankfully the state we were in doesn't impute my non existent income. Doesn't count my income at all. But it might all come out in the wash....different states just using different cs calculators....I don't know. My dh and his XH have both their income counted but it doesn't seem much different than the state I came from. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I'm not surprised, but I'm sad. I'm also excited to hear you angry and willing to fight for yourself! This is good! I'd pay market value rent to your sister starting today (market value for what you would live in if she were not available, not market value for a room in a house or an efficiency apartment...you have two daughters who would need room to visit in your apartment). Draw a contract up with your sister. Consider paying back rent if your lawyer thinks this is reasonable. Sadly, I am not at all surprised that he's claiming you have no rent expenses. I'd guess this was his plan (at the advice of his lawyer, probably) all along and that's why he encouraged you to move out of the family home. Edited to add: Hugs. Fight for yourself. You are worth every penny. And make him pay those legal fees. :-) Exactly. And for others who may be going through this, I suggest never trusting your stbx to do the right thing and don't leave the family home without legal agreements in place. (Except of course if you are in danger) 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Please be careful posting too many details on an open board. You aren't doing anything wrong and have every right to be fighting for support but words posted here might be turned against you. You might start a private chat group through the social section and invite people to join you in discussing this. Honestly, it is pretty easy to do. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I have a few friends that do mediation based divorces, and I do know families who've done it successfully so I definitely think it's possible. That said, a good lawyer will just take it right over to court when they balk. Your soon to be ex sounds like an a$$hat. I'm sorry and I hope things come out much more in your favor. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinE Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 His relationship with our daughters is tenuous at best due to all this. I deleted the bulk of your quote but wanted to address your thoughts. My parents divorced when I was an adult. From the time the separation was announced, it was no longer the responsibility of either parent to maintain my relationship with the other. I was estranged for a long time from one parent because my boundaries weren't respected. I know you're trying to do right by your daughters. I've followed your posts from the first discussion of divorce. But right now, you need to take care of you. It's okay to worry about your daughters' relationship with their father, but I say this in the nicest way possible-you should not get involved. In my experience, it's for the best that you encourage your daughters to talk with each other, their father, and a therapist, but you stay silent about your ex-husband with your children. I've seen many divorces where one spouse (usually the wife) tries to be reasonable and it rapidly spirals downhill, especially when another woman enters the picture. He's looking to the future and trying to get out of paying as little as possible. Know your state's divorce laws. Push your attorney to get your due. I've found many divorce law attorneys, especially with the lower earning spouse, just want to get the process done so they can paid. I'll delete the above if it's too personal, but I want you to know I hate that you're going through this. It's a painful, ugly thing and I'm so sorry that you have to experience it. :grouphug: 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madteaparty Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Yes feel free to PM me. Obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 not a lawyer and never been divorced but I see over the years society and courts have NO RESPECT for sham moms. They see women that decide to stay at home as lazy and living off their husbands. We are in a feminist society that pushed for that mind set. I also see 100% of the time with middle age divorce were the women stayed home with the kids. The soon to be x-husband thinks of the sham mom as lazy and living off him. He doesn't see you taking care of the kids and house as working. He thinks he did it all on his own. He will fight for not giving you a dang thing especially if he waited till all kids were over 18 I've seen this so many times. The only nice one I've seen recently the story . He knocked her up at senior prom. They stayed married and raised 2 kids. She got diagnosed with MS in her 20's He stayed out of responsibly. He was never in-love with her He has been supporting her post divorce for 3 years. She is now seeing someone. The x is a nice guy and feels bad leaving but he like so many of us that stayed married cause of children, religion or obligation . We hit middle age and feel major regrets in life or feel like we missed out. He agreed in the divorce to continued paying the mortgage until house is paid off. They've been divorce for 3 years. SHe is dating someone and so is he. They all vacationed together with the 2 adult children this summer. WOW best divorce I've ever seen. anyway they are the only couple I know that have had a long marriage with a friendly divorce. YOU need a good lawyer that actually respect sham moms. I've heard more than one that thinks SAHM are leeches and lazy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: I'm glad you have a good lawyer. Don't back down on money you will need to survive later! I agree. Fight him on this. He is wrong, but of course he'll try to get away with paying less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) When we first married we had NOTHING. He had a construction company that made very little, and when it went under we went from very little to nothing. Over the years he slowly built his career and I always supported him in that. He needed to travel extensively and I always stayed home and took care of the house and kids. He needed to relocate twice and we all went with him. At certain points throughout the years he was almost transferred to Ireland and then once to Singapore. Both times I was willing to go with him, and he was able turn our willingness to move internationally into promotions for him. I've earned my keep. I don't doubt that you have. And I think you should get 1/2 of every single account and asset plus alimony. I only asked because some states have laws that explicitly protect the financial interests of spouses who put their spouse through training or school. Unfortunately though, in some states alimony is difficult to come by, especially when the lower earning spouse does not have young children. Consult with your attorney about requiring him to split or pay college costs in full. Edited November 28, 2016 by LucyStoner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Home'scool Posted November 28, 2016 Author Share Posted November 28, 2016 I know that my state is an "equitable division" state but I don't know their record for alimony. I did find this on an attorney's website: There is no statutory formula for the amount of alimony, but Nissenbaum notes that, since "revisions to the (my state's) alimony law went into effect in 2013, alimony is presumptively valid if the amount ordered is between 30 and 35 percent of the difference in the parties' incomes. Because the law is new, there are several cases winding their way through the probate and appellate courts to get the highest (my state's) court to rule whether the presumption, of itself, is enough to support the award or if the recipient must still prove his or her need for whatever amount of alimony is ordered. Before this new law went into effect, the amount of alimony was left to the discretion of the judge. However, most judges informally used the 30-35 percent range now formalized in the new statute." In trying to translate the legal gobbledygook it looks like my state does give alimony to try to equal out salaries. Nothing is certain though until I get before an actual judge with my specific case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaVT Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 This looks like a good calculator for alimony in what I think is your state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) My lawyer is just astounded at the position he is taking. I'm worried about your lawyer. Pretty much everyone on here, even those with no legal training, predicted all of this was going to happen. Why is your lawyer surprised? Your lawyer should be the least surprised and should have been beyond prepared for this. Like advising you not to move to a rent-free situation (at least paying your sister rent, drawing up a lease with her), etc, etc. I don't want this to sound like, "We all told you so," because that's not how I mean it. I mean that the lawyer should have expected all of this and should have been advising you accordingly. Edited November 28, 2016 by JodiSue 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I'm worried about your lawyer. Pretty much everyone on here, even those with no legal training, predicted all of this was going to happen. Why is your lawyer surprised? Your lawyer should be the least surprised and should have been beyond prepared for this. Like advising you not to move to a rent-free situation (at least paying your sister rent, drawing up a lease with her), etc, etc. I don't want this to sound like, "We all told you so," because that's not how I mean it. I mean that the lawyer should have expected all of this and should have been advising you accordingly. I agree. I know you have wanted to be nice, he told you he would be nice, that's how everyone wants it to happen. But he's proven his true self. Time to tell your lawyer to pull out the biggest of guns, and if the lawyer seems at all trepidatious, find yourself a shark. And definitely get college funding in there. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I agree. I know you have wanted to be nice, he told you he would be nice, that's how everyone wants it to happen. But he's proven his true self. Time to tell your lawyer to pull out the biggest of guns, and if the lawyer seems at all trepidatious, find yourself a shark. And definitely get college funding in there. Yep. My friend's dad cut her college $$ off when she cut off contact w/him following an acrimonious divorce. Her mom never thought to ask but, fortunately, was able to cover the final year from her portion of the settlement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BooksandBoys Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Yep. My friend's dad cut her college $$ off when she cut off contact w/him following an acrimonious divorce. Her mom never thought to ask but, fortunately, was able to cover the final year from her portion of the settlement. Thirding this. Get that college agreement in writing. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I've been following but I have no advice. Just hugs. I'm so sorry. What an awful man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarlaB Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 I'm so sorry.I walked alongside a friend who went thru a nasty divorce, so sadly not a lot surprises me. In that instance, he planned it for some time (while they were in marriage counseling, he was busy hiding assets) and it was ugly. By the end, she simply needed it to be done. No more fees, no more lawyers no more court dates etc.... In some ways I feel like she settled because she ended up with a not-so-great divorce attorney whereas his attorney appeared as more of a ruthless and relentless shark.I'm so sorry you're going thru this and pray that you will have the right people alongside you to advise, counsel and support you. Seems like a lot of very sage advice on this thread. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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