If one rests, the other works.... (Clarification Post #27)

[BlsdMama]

ETA: I don't think I clearly thought about how/what I was saying in this post and so I wanted to clarify - post 27.

 

 

 

Have you ever known any relationship in your life which has not worked this way?  AKA the  Mary/Martha Syndrome, but I think there is a Mary (the non anxious/get it done type), Martha (the git 'er done type who always has a list and is mentally calling it off) and the Millie (the rested one who cannot "see" what must be done and/or lacks any feeling of urgency.)

 

The "new" teaching from rest idea amuses me.  I get the gist of it, but, as a dyed in the wool "Martha," I cannot help but noticed that many the "rested" individuals (Millie)  in my life generally bounce about life not noticing the work that must be done OR, alternatively, are rather PollyAnna that "everything gets done" and it never occurs to them that, often, it is because others actually DO IT.

 

Now, that said, I DO believe Christ was right - Mary had it the better way.  She simply rested at the feet of Jesus. No anxiety about getting  things done, giving Christ His place as first, no frustration with others like Martha.  And I assume that, given time to sit after a meal and hear Christ's teaching, she would have later gotten up and helped with dishes, peacefully.

 

However, as in the s/o of is anything ever done post, the doing must simply get done.  And I blogged on this once - that it is not that the doing does not need done, but simply that it is our attitude/spirit about HOW it all gets done. 

 

I do not harbor resentment against those who can lolly about and let others (mostly because I'm thankful I'm not married to one) but it does occur to me that this idea of going about purpose from a place of rest is an odd duck.  I mean, once upon a time, the well educated and upper class had "doers" - they had servants.  There were farmers, merchants, servants.  Easy enough to sit about reading and philosophizing, yes?  I think true Marys (that pull without frustration or anxiety) are a very rare breed.

 

And while I think a place with no anxiety and letting go of offenses and frustration is certainly that thing to strive for, I'm really not certain that "rest" IS something to strive for.  

 

The thing I admire most about my DH is that we are yoked - we both pull forward in this whole parenting/life endeavor.  Not that he pulls while I rest and I pull while he rests but that we pull together and rest together.  And when I see many mom/child relationships that are filled with frustration, much of it is because Mom pulls while child rests OR Mom rests while children pull, but there is not pulling together  - thus leading to resentment and frustration, kwim?  It is similar in co-op teaching relationships, friendships, family relationships, etc.  

 

But I think there is a good deal of confusion between Mary, Martha, and Millie....  And I think with this fad of teaching from rest there is great confusion between these three individuals, mostly as none of us have servants and can sit about with little ones under our feet.  But it seems that the idea restful lives leave many  mamas confused about what went wrong. 

 

Yes?  

 

 

Edited July 19, 2016 by BlsdMama

[Jean in Newcastle]

I just graduated a child from rest.  It actually got done in the end.  It didn't mean that I was lazy and it didn't mean that someone else was stuck picking up my slack.  It meant that I do not have the stamina to get everything done and I decided that stressing about it was counterproductive.  So, while somethings were done poorly or not at all (aka busywork and housework), the priority things did get done.  I'm proud of my accomplishment as a homeschooling mom (from rest) and I'm proud of the young man who has emerged at the end. 

[Guest]

It has seemed to me over my life that I need to find space to be both Mary *and* Martha (not both full time, but both of those people have to be who I am made of).  

 

I just listened to a really great 2-unit podcast about this by Kh. Krista West called "Watchful Work"--and really, this balance between work and rest is what she was talking about.  It was very practical and it has made a big difference to me over the past 2 weeks, as I have adopted many of her suggestions.  Her balance between the two is a little one-sided for me at my stage of life and energy level, but I do think the principles are helpful.

 

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

TBH, I wish I had parented more and run our household more from a state of rest in the early years.  I was fighting so hard to "get it done" that I failed to pay attention to the moments and the people right in front of me.  I was running on a treadmill for years and years and years, even when I had cancer.  And you know what?  A lot of those things I was worrying about and working so hard to accomplish really didn't mean that much in the end.  Did I accomplish a lot of very necessary things?  Yes.  And I am glad my family had me to help out when so many things went wrong.  At the same time, I wish I had let the dishes sit in the sink more while I cuddled my kids and I wish I had not micromanaged the business finances so much that I didn't take care of me and I wish that I had spent more time LIVING instead of frantically DOING.

[LucyStoner]

I think you may be confused about doing something from rest really means. It doesn't mean resting and not doing the work. It's about being peaceful, less stressed and more restful in your overall day, working times and not. It's definitely not about leaving it to others. At least not as I understand it.

 

I am more of a Martha in many ways. But you know what? Marthas can be judgmental self appointed martyrs in many ways. Knowing when one has done enough is better than letting bitterness set in.

Edited July 18, 2016 by LucyStoner

[8circles]

I don't think "from rest" means the same thing as relaxing with one's feet up.  It's a state of mind.  I think you can do things from a state of rest and look busy or look lazy.

[Guest]

I was able to do more restful teaching a few kids ago. With one or two students? No problem! Now? Ha! There is simply too much to get done to keep the house moving to take much rest, but I do my best to balance my health issues and school/housework.

 

It means I have the kids bring work to me.

 

I delegate lots of stuff to independent work once the concept has be demonstrated.

 

I cut down on extra school subjects that are fun but time consuming.

 

Quiet times means quiet time - after five of six hours of teaching I need a break!

 

I try to remember to have fun.

 

The whole schole thing seems a bit weird to me but that's not how I teach. To each her own!

[BlsdMama]

I think you may be confused about doing something from rest really means. It doesn't mean resting and not doing the work. It's about being peaceful, less stressed and more restful in your overall day, working times and not. It's definitely not about leaving it to others. At least not as I understand it.

 

I am more of a Martha in many ways. But you know what? Marthas can be judgmental self appointed martyrs in many ways. Knowing when one has don't enough is better than letting bitterness set in.

 

 

Yes, that's why I differentiated between Mary, Martha, and Millie.  But I suspect too many think of themselves as Mary rather than recognize Millie.  Does that make more sense?

[8circles]

Yes, that's why I differentiated between Mary, Martha, and Millie.  But I suspect too many think of themselves as Mary rather than recognize Millie.  Does that make more sense?

 

I don't understand.  Are you saying that people are claiming to be HS'ing from rest but are really just lazy, leaving the work to others?

[LucyStoner]

Yes, that's why I differentiated between Mary, Martha, and Millie. But I suspect too many think of themselves as Mary rather than recognize Millie. Does that make more sense?

Yeah, but I do think that perhaps Millies can get labeled as such merely for having different standards of what needs to be done. No better or worse, just different. And on self reflection, I realized as a cranky Martha I was not infrequently making up work or was taking on more than I could reasonably handle. This was paired with an irrational belief that I was the only one who would do the work. The Marthas of the world do not hold a monopoly on knowing what "should" be done. Martha could probably use some tips of working from rest.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yes, that's why I differentiated between Mary, Martha, and Millie.  But I suspect too many think of themselves as Mary rather than recognize Millie.  Does that make more sense?

 

So?  Unless there is actual neglect going on, I just can't see why it is anyone's place to try to pigeonhole someone, let alone judge them. 

 

Honestly, sometimes I'm all of the above.  Sometimes I need to get my butt in gear.  Sometimes I need to chill.  And sometimes I need to just keep on keeping on.  But no one is going to know exactly which of those things needs to happen from the outside. 

[momacacia]

It was hard enough to figure out with just Mary and Martha in it, now we have to figure out Millie, too?! ;)

 

I take comfort in the words of John Quincy Adams: "Duty is ours, the results are God's." Figure out my duty, do it, and open my hands to leave the results to God. I find rest in that.

 

(The people around me are completely crazy, so I can't possibly worry which M they are. ;))

 

ETA: In a tiny co-op of my own making, I know I will be the "Martha" and I'm fine with that. The fact that others are there for me to "perform/teach/prepare" for means (sadly) that I will do a more timely job than if it was just my kids I prepped for. So, I take that value for what they Mary's and Millie's might have to offer in that way, and be pleasantly surprised when they also turn out to contribute some Martha of their own (if in fact that's a good thing).

 

I long to be a Millie someday...she sounds very happy. ☺

Edited July 18, 2016 by momacacia

[TranquilMind]

It was hard enough to figure out with just Mary and Martha in it, now we have to figure out Millie, too?! ;)

 

I take comfort in the words of John Quincy Adams: "Duty is ours, the results are God's." Figure out my duty, do it, and open my hands to leave the results to God. I find rest in that.

 

(The people around me are completely crazy, so I can't possibly worry which M they are. ;))

 

ETA: In a tiny co-op of my own making, I know I will be the "Martha" and I'm fine with that. The fact that others are there for me to "perform/teach/prepare" for means (sadly) that I will do a more timely job than if it was just my kids I prepped for. So, I take that value for what they Mary's and Millie's might have to offer in that way, and be pleasantly surprised when they also turn out to contribute some Martha of their own (if in fact that's a good thing).

 

I long to be a Millie someday...she sounds very happy. ☺

 

Haha.   I'm pretty conversant with scripture.  Who the heck is Millie?  ;) 

 

If she's very happy, I want to be her! 

 

[Soror]

Yeah, but I do think that perhaps Millies can get labeled as such merely for having different standards of what needs to be done. No better or worse, just different. And on self reflection, I realized as a cranky Martha I was not infrequently making up work or was taking on more than I could reasonably handle. This was paired with an irrational belief that I was the only one who would do the work. The Marthas of the world do not hold a monopoly on knowing what "should" be done. Martha could probably use some tips of working from rest.

YES! YES! YES! Recovering type A, brought down by Hashimotos Hypothyroidism. I saw at a blessing because I saw that although I tried not to, I let stuff get in the way of people. 

 

I've pulled so far back and I refuse to get drawn into doing things other people think should be done that I don't think should be done. I've been leadership position of various groups, I know the amount of work that goes into things because I've done it. I also see a lot of people getting their panties in a wad about things that don't really matter. That's the thing if people want to say XYZ is done and others don't agree, don't expect them to do it (I just had that guilt trip last week- no I'm not helping w/ the project you started that I had no desire to start). I refuse to wear myself down anymore, if other people want to that's fine. I take care of my stuff to my family's standards and help in various groups I'm involved in, that's enough.

[Zinnia]

I rarely feel urgency about other people's priorities.  Take co-op.  I am in one.  Our leader gets herself ALL worked up all the time, stressing herself out.  I could join in, but why?  There is no need for an extra person to be worked up, because the leader seems to have enough stress for us all.  I just let it work out as it works out.  Which it would do if she would calm down, too.  But she seems to thrive on the stress and being worked up and sending out emails with several lines in ALL CAPS several times a month.  

 

It all works out.  It always does.  If it doesn't work out, then it wasn't that important, and it didn't need doing, especially in something as "extra" as co-op.  But telling her that seems like it would hurt her feelings.  So I just sit back and let her spin around in her stress.  

But I don't join in.  If that makes me lazy, so be it.  It also makes me peaceful, and that's a good thing.

[Soror]

Teaching from rest is about being well-prepared to teach and doing it from a place of calmness. Not just sitting back and doing nothing. Being thoughtful about what needs to be done, figure out how you need to do it and go at it with confidence without being in a big tizzy about it. Determine your priorities and keep them in mind, let go of the stuff that doesn't matter. 

[Soror]

.  But she seems to thrive on the stress and being worked up and sending out emails with several lines in ALL CAPS several times a month.  

 

But I don't join in.  If that makes me lazy, so be it.  It also makes me peaceful, and that's a good thing.

Yes the person guilt tripping me is the same way. She keeps taking on more stuff then complaining about having to do it. Just say no people if it makes you that miserable but stop trying to suck everyone in to your drama. GAH.

[cjzimmer1]

Have you ever known any relationship in your life which has not worked this way?  AKA the  Mary/Martha Syndrome, but I think there is a Mary (the non anxious/get it done type), Martha (the git 'er done type who always has a list and is mentally calling it off) and the Millie (the rested one who cannot "see" what must be done and/or lacks any feeling of urgency.)

 

The "new" teaching from rest idea amuses me.  I get the gist of it, but, as a dyed in the wool "Martha," I cannot help but noticed that many the "rested" individuals (Millie)  in my life generally bounce about life not noticing the work that must be done OR, alternatively, are rather PollyAnna that "everything gets done" and it never occurs to them that, often, it is because others actually DO IT.

 

I'm not at all familiar with this "new" teaching you are referring to but while I suppose there are truly some Millie type of people, I would expect the great majority of them are Mary's who simply have a different priority than the Martha's.  The Martha's are going around can't you "see" what needs to be done and the Mary's are saying but why is it so important to do that now!.  I don't think I've ever met anyone who truly never did any work but I've met lots whose priorities were very very different than mine.  Let me use this examples dishes.  I've read on these boards over and over again about people who can't stand to go to bed with dirty dishes in the sink/counter and that is a must do chore before ending supper.  I on the other hand so absolutely no need to do dishes right after supper.  I've been cooking for an hour or more, serving food, helping little kids etc.  I want to sit down and rest and talk to the kids/husband.  I have no desire to stand another 30 minutes and clean up the kitchen. The mess can wait.  So someone walking into my home during or after a meal would wonder if I ever "saw" the mess and why didn't I clean it.  I simply prefer to do that later after the kids are in bed.  I get my husband's meal ready for the next day, clean up the kitchen etc.  On the other hand my sister lives alone.  There is regularly dirty dishes stacked on her counter.  Because she is single and doesn't generate al ot of dishes, she prefers to only do dishes once a week when she has enough to warrant running the dishwasher.  She leaves them on the counter so the sink is free to wash veggies and her clean dishes are taken out of the dishwasher as needed.  Again many people would look at her kitchen and assume she never cleans and why does she lets things go like that, but really she has different priorities for her time (she regularly works 80+ hours a week and falls into bed as soon as she eats) and her system works for her.  I think it's really hard especially for the Martha's to even see that this is a case of different priorities as opposed to laziness.

[KungFuPanda]

I don't understand these code words so m completely missing the question? point? Is there a specific example that would clarify the quandary?

[katilac]

I don't understand what you are asking. Like KFP, I don't get all the code words and assumptions. 

[elegantlion]

I just graduated a child from rest.  It actually got done in the end.  It didn't mean that I was lazy and it didn't mean that someone else was stuck picking up my slack.  It meant that I do not have the stamina to get everything done and I decided that stressing about it was counterproductive.  So, while somethings were done poorly or not at all (aka busywork and housework), the priority things did get done.  I'm proud of my accomplishment as a homeschooling mom (from rest) and I'm proud of the young man who has emerged at the end. 

 

:iagree: My stamina issues are different than Jean's, but at some point I had to realize it wasn't all going to get done. I very much have a Mary temperament in the sense that I want to be fully in the presence of whatever is before me. Housework is never really done, hosting guests is about spending time with them (I tend to have laid back, casual friends) and I'm pretty good at delegating when a need arises. 

 

The joke at my old church was that if you proposed something, congratulations, you are now in charge of making it happen. I'm not afraid to jump in and help or be in charge, but there are certain things I avoid being charge of. I'm also okay with saying no. 

 

My priority is making sure the people I love know they are loved, the one I'm raising is given the tools to succeed in life, and that I arrive at tomorrow with what is left of my sanity/stamina/wherewithal intact. I try not to make more issues/messes for those around me either.

 

I read the passage about Martha and Mary again this week for a class, so I've been pondering some of these thoughts over the last few days. I also realize that my ability to "rest" has always be different from those raising larger families. 

[regentrude]

I do not see a dichotomy between living from rest and getting things done. DH and I get things done very efficiently, and then we have time for rest as well. 

 

There are people whose "getting things done" involves hectic busy-ness and who never have time to do something non-work spontaneously, and then there are people with equal work load who manage to get their stuff done while remaining relaxed and open for spontaneous stuff. My experience is more with those two distinct types: those whose lives seem to involve constant stress, and those who accomplish the same without being feeling stressed all the time.

I am not surrounded by slackers who just rest and let others do the work.

[marbel]

I think you may be confused about doing something from rest really means. It doesn't mean resting and not doing the work. It's about being peaceful, less stressed and more restful in your overall day, working times and not. It's definitely not about leaving it to others. At least not as I understand it.

 

I am more of a Martha in many ways. But you know what? Marthas can be judgmental self appointed martyrs in many ways. Knowing when one has done enough is better than letting bitterness set in.

 

This is my understanding too.   It's about being intentional, doing the things that are necessary and letting go of the stuff that doesn't matter.  It's not always easy to figure out what does and doesn't matter.

 

I know a lot of homeschool moms who are frantic all the time because they can't do everything they think they need to do, but much of what they think is necessary is not.   Forcing a kid to play 3 instruments and be in multiple orchestras when the kid hates it and is burned out is not helpful to anyone.  Cut down to the instrument the child enjoys, and let the rest go. 

 

I haven't studied the concept of "teaching from rest" comprehensively but it has nothing to do with not teaching at all, or expecting someone else to do it.  Who would do it?  Who's going to come in and teach my kids for me?

 

I get the Martha and Mary references but not Millie.  Mary took the time to sit at Jesus' feet and listen because that was her opportunity to do so.  He wasn't there all the time.  The food prep was of lesser importance at that moment.  Sure, Martha was doing it but if Martha had decided to sit down too, and leave the preparation for little while, it would have been done later, by both of them.  I identify with Martha but it seems she was focused on entertaining her guests rather than offering hospitality to them.  In other words, she wanted things to be just right but that wasn't what was needed.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Caclcoca]

Teaching from rest is about being well-prepared to teach and doing it from a place of calmness. Not just sitting back and doing nothing. Being thoughtful about what needs to be done, figure out how you need to do it and go at it with confidence without being in a big tizzy about it. Determine your priorities and keep them in mind, let go of the stuff that doesn't matter. 

This.  Teaching from rest has nothing to do with physically resting.  It is about letting go of the worry and anxiety and teaching from a place of peace with the knowledge that you are doing what God has called you to do.  

[SquirrellyMama]

Personally, the Martha's of the world stress me out! My husband is a "Martha", maybe I'll call him Marty instead. Anyway, I get really stressed out by his constant doing, that I end up doing less. I'm really not blaming my dh for my laziness. I seriously get stressed to the point of inability to act. It's a feeling that I'll never do it perfectly enough. I will say that my dh has picked up the broom right after I've swept and swept again. That could be where my thoughts of imperfection come in.

 

Kelly

 

 

[BlsdMama]

I don't understand.  Are you saying that people are claiming to be HS'ing from rest but are really just lazy, leaving the work to others?

 

 

Oh my GOSH!  No!!  

 

Man, I should have kept up with this thread!

 

No, I wasn't even so much thinking about homeschooling as I was life.

 

Homeschooling from rest has been on my mind a lot lately - listened to Dr. Perrin's podcast and I really enjoy Sarah Mackenzie.  I think she's a blast and I've listened to every podcast, some more than once. 

 

No, I guess what I'm saying is that I've noticed a particular type that says they are "relaxed" (homeschoolers, moms, etc.) and they USE the "from rest / relaxed / laid back" label to excuse not doing things.   And, it seems, they generally surround themselves with a spouse or a friend or someone who will pick up their slack, all the while allowing them to "rest / be laid back / be relaxed" etc and I wonder if they know what they are doing?

 

 Or do they know and surround themselves purposefully?

 

In other words, does Millie think of herself AS Mary and genuinely not know the work it takes to get X accomplished?

 

OR

 

Does Millie surround herself with Marthas intentionally because she chooses not to do the work and then calls herself her label of choice (relaxed, laid back, etc.) in order to make an excuse not to do anything?

 

 

This whole post came out flubbed.  It came out of frustration of knowing a mama who isn't bothering to teach to  her kids - calling it unschooling when it's just laziness.  I know a true unschooler and she is the least lazy person I know.  And then when I look at the (admittedly) few Millies I know, they think of themselves in a label other than lazy...  Then I made the mistake of watching an episode of Survivor, lol.  And one person wanted to direct everyone else on what to do... But did nothing.  Then protested, "I'm not a lazy person."

 

So my question is, I guess, in my flubbed way, - do these people really NOT know a sense of urgency, feel a weight of responsibility to do that thing that needs done?  Or do they know and they just know that someone else will pick up their slack if they surround themselves accordingly?  Is it intentional?

[LuvToRead]

I guess I read these scriptures differently.  I don't see Martha as a doer and Mary is a "rester".  I see a snapshot into one moment in their lives.  For all we know, Mary could have been bustling around all morning while Martha took a nap LOL.  All we know is when Jesus got to their house, Mary decided to sit at His feet rather than continue the preparations.  

[Ausmumof3]

Personally, the Martha's of the world stress me out! My husband is a "Martha", maybe I'll call him Marty instead. Anyway, I get really stressed out by his constant doing, that I end up doing less. I'm really not blaming my dh for my laziness. I seriously get stressed to the point of inability to act. It's a feeling that I'll never do it perfectly enough. I will say that my dh has picked up the broom right after I've swept and swept again. That could be where my thoughts of imperfection come in.

 

Kelly

There are aspects of this in my relationship as well so I get where you are coming from.

[BlsdMama]

I'm not at all familiar with this "new" teaching you are referring to but while I suppose there are truly some Millie type of people, I would expect the great majority of them are Mary's who simply have a different priority than the Martha's.  The Martha's are going around can't you "see" what needs to be done and the Mary's are saying but why is it so important to do that now!.  I don't think I've ever met anyone who truly never did any work but I've met lots whose priorities were very very different than mine.  Let me use this examples dishes.  I've read on these boards over and over again about people who can't stand to go to bed with dirty dishes in the sink/counter and that is a must do chore before ending supper.  I on the other hand so absolutely no need to do dishes right after supper.  I've been cooking for an hour or more, serving food, helping little kids etc.  I want to sit down and rest and talk to the kids/husband.  I have no desire to stand another 30 minutes and clean up the kitchen. The mess can wait.  So someone walking into my home during or after a meal would wonder if I ever "saw" the mess and why didn't I clean it.  I simply prefer to do that later after the kids are in bed.  I get my husband's meal ready for the next day, clean up the kitchen etc.  On the other hand my sister lives alone.  There is regularly dirty dishes stacked on her counter.  Because she is single and doesn't generate al ot of dishes, she prefers to only do dishes once a week when she has enough to warrant running the dishwasher.  She leaves them on the counter so the sink is free to wash veggies and her clean dishes are taken out of the dishwasher as needed.  Again many people would look at her kitchen and assume she never cleans and why does she lets things go like that, but really she has different priorities for her time (she regularly works 80+ hours a week and falls into bed as soon as she eats) and her system works for her.  I think it's really hard especially for the Martha's to even see that this is a case of different priorities as opposed to laziness.

 

 

This is the perfect example! Thank you!

 

So the way I see this is that neither you nor your sister are Millies.

ETA: I'm exactly the same way and I think I'm a Martha (who could do with a lot more Mary in her life.)  If I've worked all day long and it's my *preference* to sit after dinner and not hop right up and clean the kitchen and I'd rather do it later or in the AM on some nights when I'm wiped out - it doesn't mean I am hoping someone else will do it.  It just means I don't feel like doing it at that moment.

 

You simply have a routine you prefer, but you do it.

 

 

The "Millie" persona that I think of is married to Mr. Can Do.  She knows it.  She knows if she eats dinner long enough and sighs, then Mr. Can Do will do the dishes, not because it's their routine, but because he knows she won't get around to it and it's up to him.

 

In the co-op setting Marthas are forced to plan classes, make rules, do schedules... Not because it's their priority.  But because if they don't, no one will and then their kids won't have a co-op.

Edited July 19, 2016 by BlsdMama

[SquirrellyMama]

 

 

So my question is, I guess, in my flubbed way, - do these people really NOT know a sense of urgency, feel a weight of responsibility to do that thing that needs done?  Or do they know and they just know that someone else will pick up their slack if they surround themselves accordingly?  Is it intentional?

 

No, I think it is often times, as someone else said, a difference in priorities. Here is a good example from when the kids were young, and to a certain extent still :)

 

My dh wanted the house to be perfectly cleaned, where I wanted to spend a lot of time doing fun stuff with the kids. To me, a clean house could wait, but doing stuff with my kids couldn't. I have no regrets. I did so much with my kids, and we all loved it. My dh is still somewhat bitter about the fact that the house was messy.

 

Our priorities are different. I feel like I am lazy with cleaning, but work really hard at relationships with my kids. My dh does not work hard on relationships with our kids, but extremely hard on things that might not be important in the future.

 

ETA: I'm not saying that if your house is clean that you have bad relationships. This is just my life. Only my life. I have a hard time multi-tasking :)

 

Kelly

 

Edited July 19, 2016 by SquirrellyMama

[BooksandBoys]

Given your update, I'll weigh in. This Mary/Martha/Millie thing absolutely goes both ways. Sometimes, people have to do more work because others don't work, but sometimes it's self-created.

 

In my family of origin, my mother is a Martha. She is always finding something to do, sometimes huffing in annoyance as she does it, and, often, trying to guilt the rest of us into doing it. I am more of a Mary. I work hard, but I have clearly defined priorities. While I will always have a clean kitchen before I go to bed, I won't use evening family time to clean it (other than a bit of whole family work time to teach responsibility to the kids). I deal with it after the kids are in bed. When my mother visits, she's up before we're finished eating and cleaning my kitchen. I appreciate the help, but I refuse to accept guilt that she's doing my work because I didn't do it on her timetable.

She visited to help me pack up the house for the move and would express her annoyance every time I sat down to play with the kids or went to exercise. It was frustrating because it was my house, my stuff, my problem, and I was responsible for it, not her, but she didn't like my priorities because they didn't line up with hers.

 

I think what I'm trying to say is that, perhaps, to a Martha, carefully crafted boundaries and priorities can look like laziness, but they aren't.

[SquirrellyMama]

 

I think what I'm trying to say is that, perhaps, to a Martha, carefully crafted boundaries and priorities can look like laziness, but they aren't.

 

:iagree:  And, you don't always know what is happening in the rest of their life. They might be in charge of another group, maybe 4H, a sport, a committee, Sunday School, etc...

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

As someone said up thread (I'm too lazy to actually look to see who), it's about boundaries.  Do what you need to do for your kids.  Don't pick up the slack for someone if you don't want to.  Set boundaries if you need to in order to make it clear that it is not your responsibility.  If someone else in another marriage (that you really don't have all the info on) has a different dynamic than you do, then let them figure it out.  If no one in that family is picking up the slack and there is actual legal neglect, then you have a responsibility as a friend to talk to them and if they won't listen you have a responsibility to report them.  (Please note that I am only referring to actual legal neglect when I say that.)

 

I've been judged a lot over the years.  People have thought that I should be doing ABC or XYZ because "all good parents do ABC or XYZ".  And I suffered a lot of stress and guilt at times for not following their expectations.  I come to find out that it actually was all ok.  I suffered needless stress and guilt and anxiety.  (Note - no one ever came close to accusing me of actual legal neglect but just not following their formula for homeschooling/child rearing/ housewifing.)  I've gotten to the point where I try to shut all those negative voices out.  If the house gets to the point where dh wants to clean it while I rest, then it's ok and it is nobodies business but our own.  If I do certain things that other people think that dh should be doing, then tough - it's our business.  I get a bit hot under the collar on this issue.  Part of having boundaries includes not judging others when it is none of your business to do so. 

[LucyStoner]

For those unfamiliar with the terms, Mary and Martha are biblical references. I think many, but not all, people know that. For Millie, I inferred it was a concept that BlvdMama created or a concept she heard and repeated.

[LucyStoner]

Oh my GOSH! No!!

 

Man, I should have kept up with this thread!

 

No, I wasn't even so much thinking about homeschooling as I was life.

 

Homeschooling from rest has been on my mind a lot lately - listened to Dr. Perrin's podcast and I really enjoy Sarah Mackenzie. I think she's a blast and I've listened to every podcast, some more than once.

 

No, I guess what I'm saying is that I've noticed a particular type that says they are "relaxed" (homeschoolers, moms, etc.) and they USE the "from rest / relaxed / laid back" label to excuse not doing things. And, it seems, they generally surround themselves with a spouse or a friend or someone who will pick up their slack, all the while allowing them to "rest / be laid back / be relaxed" etc and I wonder if they know what they are doing?

 

Or do they know and surround themselves purposefully?

 

In other words, does Millie think of herself AS Mary and genuinely not know the work it takes to get X accomplished?

 

OR

 

Does Millie surround herself with Marthas intentionally because she chooses not to do the work and then calls herself her label of choice (relaxed, laid back, etc.) in order to make an excuse not to do anything?

 

 

This whole post came out flubbed. It came out of frustration of knowing a mama who isn't bothering to teach to her kids - calling it unschooling when it's just laziness. I know a true unschooler and she is the least lazy person I know. And then when I look at the (admittedly) few Millies I know, they think of themselves in a label other than lazy... Then I made the mistake of watching an episode of Survivor, lol. And one person wanted to direct everyone else on what to do... But did nothing. Then protested, "I'm not a lazy person."

 

So my question is, I guess, in my flubbed way, - do these people really NOT know a sense of urgency, feel a weight of responsibility to do that thing that needs done? Or do they know and they just know that someone else will pick up their slack if they surround themselves accordingly? Is it intentional?

I think it is very hard to know what is going on from the outside.

 

My SAHD brother leaves every single dish for his husband, who works FT. I'll admit I wondered why at times. For years. Then I did the dishes for them. Well, his husband basically chewed me out for doing it wrong. Wrong being not the way he liked it because all of the dishes were in fact clean when the load was done. All of the sudden I was like "ahhh, if my spouse was like this he'd get the dishes left for him too because ain't no one got time to listen to this dude whine". When I help my brother with his housework, I just stack the dishes 100 miles high and leave them there for the "World's Best Dishwasher" :P

 

Really, barring some serious neglect, I think it's wise for us to keep our eyes on our own shit rather than on other's shit.

Edited July 19, 2016 by LucyStoner

[8circles]

Really, barring some serious neglect, I think it's wise for us to keep our eyes on our own shit rather than on other's shit.

 

There's a lot of shit around here (meaning around me, not the hive).  I would rather people weren't looking.

[Ausmumof3]

I have no idea how it is in the situation you are working with but at a certain point for me I just had to accept that if I cared about something enough I should do it. And otherwise not worry too much. I care more about cleaning than anyone else in the house. (And that isn't that much) I can get upset about the fact that no one is helping or just do it. I care about outings for our homeschool group so I organise them. They are less of a priority for others so they might come if it works for them. I make a heap of work for myself by having too many animals. That's my choice.

M

[fairfarmhand]

I haven't read everything but here are my initial thoughts on teaching from rest.

 

1. Prioritize. This is where I evaluate what is most important for today...this week...this school year. I often have to remind myself to not get tunnel vision and only think about today. I need to check out what's coming up too.

 

2. In a group (church, homeschool group etc.)  Do things that I am good at, that I have a knack for. Allow others to pitch in in areas where they have a knack. It's okay to say no. It's okay for things to not be done because I didn't do it. This allows others to step up and work too. Sometimes it allows the organization to cut the fat so to speak and eliminate unnecessary things.

 

3. Be open to the idea that sometimes I can work outside my best skill set and stretch myself. Sometimes. Not all the time.

 

4. Be conscious that sometimes seasons and interest change and occasionally  I have to turn things down depending on the season of life I'm in. Think about stuff before I commit.

 

Make lists. Pray about stuff. Be able to let go of the perfect and accept my own humanity.

 

Pray over my list and do my best to do what needs to be done. If I don't get it all done, it will be okay.

Edited July 19, 2016 by fairfarmhand

[BlsdMama]

I think you're misunderstanding.... It's not a reflection of my home, lol.

 

I am truly WONDERING - the folks who sit about and let others - is it because they are unaware or oblivious?  Or do they purposefully surround/choose people (as friends, spouse) etc., because the others will "do" for them?

 

ETA: Like the chick on the Survivor show - I thought she could not possibly be oblivious to how she was getting over.... And yet she did explain saying she's not lazy.  Now, a big part of me thought, "There is NO way you cannot notice that others are carrying your load."   And the other part of me thought of genuinely nice people I know that will do the exact same thing.  So then, the question, is it just blissful ignorance?

Edited July 19, 2016 by BlsdMama

[fairfarmhand]

I think you're misunderstanding.... It's not a reflection of my home, lol.

 

I am truly WONDERING - the folks who sit about and let others - is it because they are unaware or oblivious?  Or do they purposefully surround/choose people (as friends, spouse) etc., because the others will "do" for them?

 

ETA: Like the chick on the Survivor show - I thought she could not possibly be oblivious to how she was getting over.... And yet she did explain saying she's not lazy.  Now, a big part of me thought, "There is NO way you cannot notice that others are carrying your load."   And the other part of me thought of genuinely nice people I know that will do the exact same thing.  So then, the question, is it just blissful ignorance?

 

I think maybe it could be both.

 

Some people are oblivious.

 

Some people are self centered and feel they are "owed" this stuff. (even Christians)

 

Some people are just waiting for someone to reach out and ask for help. I'm kind of the last type at times. I am a litttle socially awkward and just jumping in makes me wonder "will they think I'm trying to take over, will they feel insulted, etc." so I hope they'll ask because I just don't know how to approach it.

[fairfarmhand]

My dh gets frustrated with me because I'm not much of a noticer. I don't notice the stuff I step over on the stairs until cleaning day. Then I get it picked up.

 

I'm not sitting around doing nothing. But I take care of different things that he would prefer sometimes. Maybe this is what's coming into play. The stuff that's getting done by the Millie is stuff that they feel is important but maybe not in the eyes of someone else the most important thing. The priorities are skewed.

 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Obviously some people are "entitled".  And some are users.  And some are oblivious.  It's easier to "see" that clearly on reality shows where you have the carefully cropped footage skewed to showing certain trends and the reactions they get.  In real life, unless you are really close to someone where you can see their patterns over time and their reactions to being asked for help etc, I don't think it is that easy.  That's why a lot of times in dating relationships or even friendships it is only later that someone says "why didn't I see that _____ was such a user!" 

[TechWife]

I don't understand this thread because I don't understand what Millie's nature is. Can someone clue me in? 

[KungFuPanda]

I think you're misunderstanding.... It's not a reflection of my home, lol.

 

I am truly WONDERING - the folks who sit about and let others - is it because they are unaware or oblivious? Or do they purposefully surround/choose people (as friends, spouse) etc., because the others will "do" for them?

 

ETA: Like the chick on the Survivor show - I thought she could not possibly be oblivious to how she was getting over.... And yet she did explain saying she's not lazy. Now, a big part of me thought, "There is NO way you cannot notice that others are carrying your load." And the other part of me thought of genuinely nice people I know that will do the exact same thing. So then, the question, is it just blissful ignorance?

Since personal responsibility is mainly self-imposed, they could absolutely realize that their friend will do the thing that they won't. They are very likely completely comfortable with the idea that an event might not happen if nobody steps up. They're thinking "Oh well" while their friend is thinking "I must not let this event fail!" They're not necessarily sitting on their heels waiting for their friends to blink first.

 

You've got to be careful labeling people as lazy because they just don't care as much about this Thing as you do. You can structure the co-op so there is a minimum level of participation, but you can't get bitter if someone stops at that. You're free to not invite them to things you plan. However, if you chose to invite them, or you need their kids to make it fly, do so with no strings or resentment attached.

 

You've gotta be careful keeping a running tally with adults. Life is too complex and you might not be in the sphere where they do the lion's share of the work. I've been on both ends of the spectrum in different arenas. When I organize something, I set a minimum commitment I can be content with and try to remember that nobody will care as much as the organizer. When I'm taking The Slacker role I am genuinely baffled by the lady running around with her hair on fire wondering why everyone else doesn't want to be on fire too. I'm thinking "Relax. These kids are eight. If we end up with a park day instead of science class it will not matter. We'll play here, do science at home, and be flexible and happy."

 

I don't think I've felt compelled to match the exact effort and energy in the room since my late twenties. I do what I feel I should and let others manage their own feelings and stress. Peer pressure no longer effects me. Type A's no longer have any power over me. I recovered from that long ago and put it down.

Edited July 20, 2016 by KungFuPanda

[OneStepAtATime]

I think you're misunderstanding.... It's not a reflection of my home, lol.

 

I am truly WONDERING - the folks who sit about and let others - is it because they are unaware or oblivious?  Or do they purposefully surround/choose people (as friends, spouse) etc., because the others will "do" for them?

 

ETA: Like the chick on the Survivor show - I thought she could not possibly be oblivious to how she was getting over.... And yet she did explain saying she's not lazy.  Now, a big part of me thought, "There is NO way you cannot notice that others are carrying your load."   And the other part of me thought of genuinely nice people I know that will do the exact same thing.  So then, the question, is it just blissful ignorance?

Yes.  And No.  And I don't know.  And it depends on the person and the circumstances. :)

 

FWIW, yes I used to have a friend that surrounded herself with people that would do a LOT for her.  I was one of those people.  Her husband was, too.  He did nearly all of the housework, paid the bills, bathed the kids, did most of the cooking, etc.  He was also the sole breadwinner.  I was kind of shocked at how little she actually did in the house and how much her husband did.  All the littles went to day school for 4 hours every day so she did have some time on her own.  I thought she must be pretty manipulative or lazy to get him to do everything for her but honestly, once I got to know them better, I realized that several things were happening, and her choice of people she surrounded herself with was probably subconscious and it cut both ways.  

 

TBH, I think I gravitated to her because she seemed to need help and I tend to like to help people.  I think her husband gravitated towards her because he is nurturing and a doer and likes to help, but he also tends to micromanage.  She would let him because that was her nature.  It created a dynamic where she really seemed pretty lazy but in the end I don't think it was laziness or manipulation.

 

1.  Her husband was such a doer that he would step in and do EVERYTHING because he wanted things done a certain way, he wanted things done in a certain time frame, he liked to help out and he never established any boundaries.  The more he took on, the more she let him.  He wasn't rude about it or anything.  He just would step in a do it without ever giving her a chance to do things on her time table.  

 

2.  Honestly, she was pretty oblivious.  For example, she and I were at a little kid's birthday party.  She went through the line to feed herself and never once thought about feeding her kids.  Literally.  The oldest one (4 1/2) finally asked me if I would help her get food for her and her siblings.  The woman had already left the dining area to go sit outside and eat.  I got them plates of food while also juggling a plate for my 4 1/2 year old while also juggling my 1 year old on my hip.   I led the kids to her with the food and she looked so startled.  She apologized sincerely and explained that she was used to her husband taking care of the kids when they were at parties.  She forgot she would need to feed them since he wasn't there this time.  Was she an awful person?  No.  And any time I ever asked her to help me with something she was more than willing to do it.  She also would work incredibly hard at special projects for the kids.  She even made my son a beautiful lamp when he was born.  She wasn't intrinsically lazy.  And she adored her kids.   She just wasn't terribly nurturing or observant.

[Outdoorsy Type]

"Millie" might have fear of doing something wrong in front of others so she doesn't join in, or she might feel left out of the "Martha"s in the group. "Millie" might have depression or other illness that drain her completely. "Millie" might be doing more than you know OR she could be going through a horrendous life situation you aren't privy to. The list could go on.

 

Maybe "Millie" needs a "Martha" mentor to ask if she needs help, or to gently walk her through joining the other "Martha"s as they do their work. Encouragement and including people will fix almost all these problems.

 

In her own home, who cares unless there is neglect. Seriously.

 

Just a thought.

[ThursdayNext]

Am I a "Millie"? I feel like I'm a low functioning person. I don't get tons of things done. We've missed plenty of days of school this past year to me just not getting to it. Feeling tired and just bouncing from one kid crisis to another.

 

I'm the worst at being busy. I like time to just be at home with a book. I look forward to soccer ending, and get excited when Bible study is cancelled. I'm only starting to have more than one thing (park day, bringing a meal, play date, shopping, field trip, zoo outing Etc) in one day. And I'm awful at that. When I invite families over for a kid birthday party at our house, I am crazy for 2 weeks.

 

I don't volunteer and help with different church and kid activities much. I'm willing to prep crafts, or help in nursery, or bring food, but I don't see it. I have to be asked. I never head something up. I'm the person in the homeschool group who goes to some of the field trips other people organize, but only ineptly plans one a year. When a kid activity we were doing was threatening to disband, I didn't "step up." I'm thinking about starting a book club for 1st-3rd graders at my house or the library. But if I do start it, someone who is better at fun themed crafts and snacks will probably take over.

 

Some of it is that I don't care that much about the activity. I might want it enough to put my kid in it, but not enough to give it a weeknight and hours of prep. I'm not bothered at all that it might not happen. Also, the scripture memory activity I did value, I was teaching once a week, but I don't feel I was doing a great job. If I actually felt the lack of an activity or need, I might do something. But instead there is so much I'm already saying no to.

 

At home, my husband does the bedtime routine more than I do. He's also the one in charge of paying bills, fixing things, and telling me what library books are due. There are plenty of times I'm tired and just leave the dishes, so he does them that night.

 

Sorry for the long post. All that to say, I'm probably this Millie person you're talking about. But I don't know how to change, and don't know if I want to change.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

If I come across as a Millie at church or in groups (which I am interpreting as "perceived as capable but she's not looking particularly spiritual or practical to me), it is because I am Mary'ing AND Martha'ing my @$$ off at home. Isn't that pretty much the definition of a homeschool mom? You're nurturing their minds and souls but also you're the chief cook and bottle washer?

 

For a quarter of a century, I did the Mary stuff and the Martha stuff at church. (I taught women's and children's Sunday schools, and I also cooked and cleaned and visited.) I really look forward to doing both again in a few years. But I'm not doing either right now, because this household is all I can handle! Unless I see a particular need with an individual, in which case I frequently will make the time, I'm generally opting out. I will be back when my work here is done.

 

I am just chiming in to say to any Millie, Martha, or Mary, if you are a homeschooling mother and that takes ALL you have, truly, then please know that many of us veteran hs'ing moms think you are doing enough. You ARE enough. You will probably take the skills (and the love) that you are learning right now, out into the big wide world, when you have more time and more rest.

 

I'm also chiming in to say that whoever is looking at other women and sizing them up according to your own dumb standard of what they're capable of and what they should be doing, STOP IT. The analysis is too presumptive and judgmental to do anyone any good. It's more effective and peaceful for each of us to just decide whether or not we can work with someone else (or whether we want to), than to spend a lot of time scrutinizing them for flaws...at least in my experience.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Tibbie Dunbar

[fraidycat]

I very much look like Millie when it comes to MY home -it's clean, but I don't care if there's a pile of papers on the table or dirty dishes in the sink. Sometimes I clean the kitchen. Sometimes DH does, or the kids. Same with cooking.

 

Group events - I'll attend. I'll help. I'll offer to pay or shop or do, but I will.not.lead. or organize. I won't just jump up and do, though, because I don't want to interfere. I want instructions. If I offer and am not taken up on the offer, I'm not going to just "see" what I *think* should be done and do it, because there may already be plans in the works for something else to be done and it's sometimes annoying when I receive unsolicited "help" - it usually creates extra work for me. So, I probably look like Millie to an outsider, or a Martha.

 

We are relaxed schoolers, also. We get it done, but it would appear quite random and "too relaxed" to many on these boards.

 

Just yesterday I helped Dad install two windows, helped empty out my brother's boat to hang everything to dry - lifejackets, tow ropes, boat covers, tube, and towels. Helped install new "skirting boards" around the bottom of the house, rearranged and swept out a bedroom, put together a hanging rack for clothes, made lunch for everyone here (at my parents' house), started supper (seasoned and put roast in the oven), fixed the kitchen table, and various other random things. I probably would look like Millie to a casual observer at supper time when my aunt finished cooking supper and my mom and aunt did the dishes, because I, a fully capable adult, was sitting right there. Being "oblivious".

 

I'm not Millie. Or Martha. Or Mary. I'm fraidycat, with my own to-do list of priorities, ways of doing things, and ideas on what "should" be done. Those with other priorties, ways, and shoulds are not better or worse than me. They are just different. Different isn't wrong. And you can't tell from the outside looking in why people act the way they do. I would've been happy with roast and fresh-picked garden veggies for supper, with pickles, olives, cheese as additional sides. Others thought we needed potatoes, gravy, and Yorkshire pudding with the roast, so "Millied" the job out to those with that "should". No bitterness, no judgement, just collaboration on feeding the 10 people who needed to be fed.

Edited July 20, 2016 by fraidycat

[heartlikealion]

I think it depends on the individual and there's no way to determine this about all people that fit that mold.

 

For certain things I procrastinate/rely on dh's help. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I actually feel very overwhelmed/stressed/paralyzed with certain tasks. I will go to the post office, but I don't know what the bleep to do with half the mail. Do I need to keep this? So I ask dh. And then it's just easier to let him go through the mail to begin with. But I fully admit this and he knows this. He says, "just give me the mail."

 

I also get intimidated with other people in certain situations. I hate hanging out in the kitchen with everyone. I don't know what to do, or I need to use the sink and someone else is using it. I believe myself to be OCD, but the psychiatrist said I just have OCD symptoms. I wash my hands a lot and don't like starting one task, then feeling like I need to wash hands between tasks and I can't. I just want to be in the kitchen alone or do something else. So when I go to big family gatherings I try to keep myself busy but it may not be in the kitchen. It may be watching the kids. Plus my MIL is very particular about how she likes the fridge organized, the dishwasher loaded, etc. People that have been in the family longer than me won't even try the dishwasher LOL I worry sometimes that my reluctancy to "get my hands dirty" with certain tasks may be perceived as laziness but a lot of it is anxiety. I do not know if this explains anyone else's perceived lazy behavior. They could be hiding anxiety or something or not.