What do our Nancy Drew fans think of this CBS casting decision?

[Tanaqui]

Black Nancy Drew?

 

Interestingly, this comes right on the heels of the tempest in a teapot that was HP Fandom after the casting of a black actress to play Hermione in the play, but I heard a lot about how Hermione is obviously white (unless she isn't) and thus far I've heard crickets on the subject of Nancy Drew. Probably Nancy Drew fandom is a little less vocal.

[Farrar]

Interesting. My guess would be that Hermione feels like a "living" character whereas Nancy Drew has been through lots of reinventions. She's more like Green Lantern or something - she can be recast more easily as a different race because she has been recast in different ways already.

 

Ftr though, not a Nancy Drew fan. I never found them all that compelling as a kid... I find the history of how they were rewritten over time more interesting actually.

[AimeeM]

I think it's BS. Sorry. I know that isn't PC of me. I feel the same about the Hermoine casting decision. It makes the entire show/play/whatever unbelievable and something I just don't care to see when the described physical characteristics of the main characters are deviated from so drastically.

[Junie]

Except that every.single.story mentions her "titian" hair on the first page.  It's the only way I can picture her.

[Tanaqui]

I just don't care to see when the described physical characteristics of the main characters are deviated from so drastically.

 

Except that Hermione's physical characteristics never do mention her race. We have one mention of her, after summer vacation, "looking very brown", and another of her "white face" in a scary and stressful situation where the obvious meaning is that the blood has drained from her face. I call that inconclusive. Edit: Oh, and we also see several mentions of Hermione blushing. Black people do that too, and it can be pretty visible if they have light skin.

 

Bushy brown hair can go in multiple directions, race-wise. I've seen several people suggest that you can read her as a highly assimilated Jew, for example, pointing specifically to her hair.

 

Except that every.single.story mentions her "titian" hair on the first page.

 

Mmm. You can be black and have red hair, and not just via hair dye. All it takes is two ancestors with red hair, and when you consider that most African-Americans have white ancestors, that's not too difficult.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2016 by Tanaqui

[SpecialClassical]

Actually, what bugged me is that this new Nancy will be a woman in her 30's. What in the world?

[Jean in Newcastle]

It doesn't bother me at all and I was an avid Nancy Drew fan.  Do I picture her like she looked on the covers of the old versions?  Sure.  But her race and looks were not integral to the plots or the general character of Nancy Drew, in my opinion. 

[Joker]

This isn't something that bothers me. I read all the ND books while growing up and would be fine watching them played out with a black actress. I loved the movie Annie growing up and watched it all the time. I also enjoyed the most recent Annie film. 

 

I read books all the time and have a vision in my mind of the characters. The movie versions usually always rip that to shreds but I can still enjoy their version. I usually only hate it when they change the character/personality of the person completely, but their appearance isn't usually that big of a deal for me. 

 

 

 

[Farrar]

Hasn't she been done as a grown up before though? I seem to remember a series where they did that...

 

ETA: I looked it up and I guess I'm wrong, though apparently she's been played by actresses in their mid-20's.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Farrar

[Seasider]

I can much more easily accept Hermione portrayed by an actor of African descent than ND. But it should be a British-African person, rather than an African-American. In my book Potterites must be Brits! When I think back to descriptions of the character, it seems acceptable.

 

ND, on the other hand, is quintessentially mid century white American, at least in my mind, because the books gave complete a physical description as such.

 

I think the casting decision that most threw me was putting a dark haired girl in the role of Lucy Pevensie for the Narnia movie. Now that girl was adorable and marvelous in the part, but Lewis' Lucy the Valiant was golden through and through; her hair was described in the books and was a tangible representation of her "goldenness." The dark hair didn't meet my expectation. But I suppose that's a matter of opinion.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Seasider

[Farrar]

This is interesting. I was surprised by the Hermione thing initially but quickly got over it. The ND one makes total sense to me for the reasons I said above - that the character has changed over time anyway and had several series with different feels to them.

 

The reactions here make me feel like casting roles from books as black in movies means you can't win. When it's a role that doesn't include a racial description, apparently it must be white. When it's one that was white, it must be white. When it's one that was black... it still must be white for some people, who apparently don't read all that closely (I'm thinking of the bizarre twitter outrage about Rue in Hunger Games).

[Tanaqui]

I'm thinking of the bizarre twitter outrage about Rue in Hunger Games

 

Bizarre and disgusting.

 

When it's a role that doesn't include a racial description, apparently it must be white.

 

Lots of people made this argument regarding black Hermione. The circular nature of "She identifies every single non-white character in the text, therefore, every character whose race is not explicitly mentioned must be white, and we know this because if they weren't white she would have told us" is apparently opaque to many readers who aren't quite as bright as our favorite witch.

 

[Guest]

I don't care much provided it is about the story and not some weird token nod. I like authentic casting choices, not pressured and social commentary ones.

 

But that's me and I'm white, so maybe if feel differently if I wasn't well represented in media. If the actress is good it will be good enough for me.

[Tanaqui]

Actually, what bugged me is that this new Nancy will be a woman in her 30's. What in the world?

 

I suppose Nancy had to grow up one of these decades. I just *sniff* never expected it to be so soon!

[shinyhappypeople]

Actually, what bugged me is that this new Nancy will be a woman in her 30's. What in the world?

 

And... they've now completely missed the point of what made Nancy Drew interesting.  The fact that she was a teen girl who defied expectations for her age and gender is what made the series so compelling.  Why not turn the character into a guy while they're at it?  

 

So, now basically we have what?  A female detective solving crimes?  Wow, that hasn't already been done a million times before </sarcasm>

 

I'm disappointed.  A Nancy Drew reboot would be awesome, but it sounds like they've just borrowed the name and are doing their own thing.  Lame.

 

Regarding the race thing, I don't really care.  I could see it being a positive thing, even though it's not completely authentic to the original series.  

[bibiche]

That's why I like the idea of casting black actors wherever possible, in roles where race plays no great part.  Because default is 'white like me'. And that needs to change. 

This! about a million times.

[Anne]

I'm horrified at the idea of casting ND as a woman in her 30's (really???). I don't see any reason why she can't be black - or any other ethnicity, for that matter.

 

If ND is really cast as a woman in her 30s, the resulting show will bear very little resemblance to the books.

 

Anne

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yes, I agree, age and gender matter to the plot premise.  Race does not. 

[LucyStoner]

This is interesting. I was surprised by the Hermione thing initially but quickly got over it. The ND one makes total sense to me for the reasons I said above - that the character has changed over time anyway and had several series with different feels to them.

 

The reactions here make me feel like casting roles from books as black in movies means you can't win. When it's a role that doesn't include a racial description, apparently it must be white. When it's one that was white, it must be white. When it's one that was black... it still must be white for some people, who apparently don't read all that closely (I'm thinking of the bizarre twitter outrage about Rue in Hunger Games).

And some folks apparently took the presence of a black main character in Star Wars VII quite badly as well. Somehow, to some people, non-white lead characters are, at best, a tired attempt at PC activism or, at worst, seen as an "attack" on white people.

 

Racism: alive and well in 2016.

[bettyandbob]

It never occurred to me that Hermione had to be white. I think she could easily have been black. I only picture her now as the movies depicted her.

 

The Halloween before the first movie several neighborhood children dressed as HP characters. It was really interesting because without a movie everpyone came up with their own idea of what the characters looked like. At that point my ds had read the first 3 books and wanted to be Dumbledore. (I believe the Sorcerers Stone movie came out a week after Halloween because attending it was a birthday present for my oldest at age 7.) it was fun to see what everyone came up with without the movie influence. Everyone who had read the book seemed to easily guess the character each child was portraying, despite everyone being different.

 

I picture Nancy Drew white because of the book covers. One can easily see ND was created at a time when no main character representing "good" would have been anything but white. However, she can be black. There are black people with reddish hair, if that's a sticking point. It's annoying that people find this controversial. I don't know why we can't get past that. Are people just stuck at the first half of the twentieth century? I bet the new ND has a cell phone--that's not authentic either is it. If we modernize for technology we can change other things too and still keep the core of the character.

 

How, I don't think ND should be 30. That is definitely getting away from the core of the character.

[Chris in VA]

DD's only question was, "Is her dad still a lawyer?"

 

I'm not sure if that (being a lawyer) is a bad thing that should change or not! :laugh:

[Junie]

 

 

 

 

Mmm. You can be black and have red hair, and not just via hair dye. All it takes is two ancestors with red hair, and when you consider that most African-Americans have white ancestors, that's not too difficult.

 

 

 

This is why I did the google image search -- to see if only Caucasians would have red hair.  And the search was very white.

[Junie]

Last year, dd11 and I went to local production of The Wizard of Oz.  Dorothy was played by an African American girl.  This didn't bother me, but it did take a moment to get used to.  But, I think that anyone who didn't look like Judy Garland would have taken me a moment to get used to.

 

I often picture characters (especially little girls) as "white like me" because every.single.girl in my elementary school was white.

 

I was, however, disappointed by American Girl's Isabelle character.  I feel that as a little girl from Washington, D.C., she should have been African American.

 

I think that casting should follow the demographics of the location.

[Tanaqui]

This is why I did the google image search -- to see if only Caucasians would have red hair.  And the search was very white.

 

Well, I know black people with red hair (only one of whom has a form of albinism), and I don't know what search terms you used, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. But for reference, here is the result of my google search.

 

Wait, I have another link. And another - this one has a picture of a natural Asian redhead. And of course, once we add in hair dye the sky's the limit.

 

I can much more easily accept Hermione portrayed by an actor of African descent than ND. But it should be a British-African person, rather than an African-American. In my book Potterites must be Brits! When I think back to descriptions of the character, it seems acceptable.

 

Noma Dumezweni is British. She's lived in England since she was a child.

 

Edited January 19, 2016 by Tanaqui

[Bluegoat]

It doesn't bother me.  I don't think having a black character in a role that was not at first glance obviously meant to be a black person has ever bothered me.

 

In the case of something like the Annie remake, I do think is creates a certain distance from the original character - but it was a wholesale resetting of the story so that was done anyway.  It's hard to know if it would have seemed odd to have an Annie without red hair in that was supposed to be a version that remained close to the cartoon.  (I thought it wasn't a very good movie, so I can't say I thought it worked overall, but that wasn't about race issues.)

 

I can imagine a situation where I might feel a change in ethnicity for the character significantly changes the story in some way, but I don't think I've ever really encountered that.

 

I'm more likely to be put off about complaints that characters that people think ought to be played by minorities, aren't.  There can be instances (though I think less so today) when this seems arbitrary or done for bad reasons, and I can understand complaints about that.  However, when it is simply that the role "belongs" to a particular ethnic group, I have issues with that - I don't think that is how acting works, I think that placing limits of ethnicity on actors is backwards and in the long view, divisive.  I understand when people are frustrated because they find fewer roles as actors who don't read as "white" but I think that is a counter-productive approach, especially when it is accompanies by claims that others can't really "get" what it required to represent that character - that doesn't jive well when we put a black actor into a role that clearly was written with someone else in mind, or when non-white actors find themselves, as is often the case, representing many different ethnicities. 

 

But as for those specific characters, I don't find it a leap to imagine either of them as black - maybe especially Hermione, who could easily to me be an English black girl.

[ktgrok]

Actually, what bugged me is that this new Nancy will be a woman in her 30's. What in the world?

 

Yes! That's what bothered me too!

[Junie]

 

Well, I know black people with red hair (only one of whom has a form of albinism), and I don't know what search terms you used, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. But for reference, here is the result of my google search.

 

Wait, I have another link. And another - this one has a picture of a natural Asian redhead. And of course, once we add in hair dye the sky's the limit.

 

 

Noma Dumezweni is British. She's lived in England since she was a child.

 

 

For my search, I just typed in "titian hair", as the description is in the book.  I wanted to see if my perception of the description was inaccurate.  And it was, as I had always thought that it meant strawberry blond.  But, I also noticed that almost every picture was of a white woman.

 

I really don't mean any offense, although I fear that I may come across that way.  I grew up in a very white community.  It is hard to change first impressions.  And my first impression of Nancy Drew is a white girl with red hair.

[Jenny in Florida]

I think it's BS. Sorry. I know that isn't PC of me. I feel the same about the Hermoine casting decision. It makes the entire show/play/whatever unbelievable and something I just don't care to see when the described physical characteristics of the main characters are deviated from so drastically.

 

http://www.today.com/popculture/j-k-rowling-loves-black-hermione-defends-casting-harry-potter-t63431

 

Here's what JK Rowling had to say about this issue: "Canon: brown eyes, frizzy hair and very clever. White skin was never specified. Rowling loves black Hermione."

[Kim in Appalachia]

I was an avid ND fan as a kid, and my oldest dd was the same.  I would have no issue with ND being black, Asian, or Latino.  She would have to be American, and she should be in her late teens, maybe early 20's.  Being in her 30's ruins it.  The book was about an independent young girl who had a knack for finding and solving mysteries and she had a supportive dad.

 

FWIW, I would have no issue with Hermione being black either, as long as she was British.  There are a few characters in HP that it would have seemed odd, like Ron.

 

 

Back to ND, when I had first started watching Castle I noticed that they were shooting for a slight ND feel, but in reverse, sort of.  He's a single dad with a independent and smart teenage daughter (and she has red hair!), and Kate (whose hair has become more reddish) also just as a father, her mother's murder being one of her motivations to be a detective. But true to Hollywood form, it has to be about the guy and not the girls.  I do love Nathan Fillion, but I felt a bit cheated on the premise of the show. 

 

 

[Kim in Appalachia]

I have to add, that if there is a ND show coming to tv, I will give it a shot, even if the actress is too old. Maybe they will do a good job with it.  I'm willing to watch it. 

[Tanaqui]

For my search, I just typed in "titian hair", as the description is in the book.  I wanted to see if my perception of the description was inaccurate.  And it was, as I had always thought that it meant strawberry blond.  But, I also noticed that almost every picture was of a white woman.

 

Well, that specific descriptor would skew the results, especially if some of them are to actual paintings by the dude :)

 

And no, I'm not really offended except by weird inaccuracies. After the Harry Potter casting decision I spent a lot of time going "Yes, black people tan/blush/get paler when upset" at people. "Yes, it can be visible!" "Yes, bushy is a descriptor that can be applied to 'textured' hair!" "Yes, some black people have pale skin, and not all of them are albinos, and funnily enough, people of African descent are the most likely to be albino!"

 

Lather, rinse, repeat. So I may be a wee bit trigger happy now.

[Pam in CT]

If Thomas Jefferson can be cast on Broadway by a black man -- and he has been, brilliantly, in the most runaway smash hit in decades -- come on.  We're good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

eta for better clip

 

 

Edited January 19, 2016 by Pam in CT

[Pam in CT]

...

 

Lather, rinse, repeat. So I may be a wee bit trigger happy now.

 

We actually have that cartoon posted on the fridge.  I always knew we had a special connection...

[Word Nerd]

It's hard to imagine that the reboot could be any worse than the 1970s TV show. It has a certain nostalgic charm even though I was too young to watch it at the time it was airing, but I saw a few episodes on Netflix several years ago and found it almost unwatchable.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Word Nerd

[Tanaqui]

OMG IT IS LIKE WE ARE TWINS, PAM!

[Pam in CT]

Identical twins at that, amIright?

[Mimm]

I think Nancy Drew is white. I think Hermione is white. I don't think that's a big deal to reinterpret the characters as different races. This might be a bad example, but isn't there a Sherlock Holmes show where Watson is female? So what? It's a different take on the character.

 

However, I was majorly offended when they released a book with Anne of Green Gables on the cover as a blond. Some things can be reinterpreted and some things are NOT allowed. :)

[MercyA]

We actually have that cartoon posted on the fridge.  I always knew we had a special connection...

 

My husband and I quote that cartoon all the time! A classic. 

[marbel]

Well, that specific descriptor would skew the results, especially if some of them are to actual paintings by the dude :)

 

<snip>

 

LOL, I haven't thought about Nancy Drew in years but when I read this thread, the first thing that came to mind was "titian-haired" because that's the specific descriptor in the books.  Yeah, a search on "titian hair" is going to bring up different results than a search on "African American natural red hair."    (Including a couple of ND book covers.) 

 

I don't care who plays ND (or Hermione).   I just find the hair color argument amusing.   ND is a beloved book series for many people, so of course there are going to be strong opinions about casting it. 

 

[Junie]

I think Nancy Drew is white. I think Hermione is white. I don't think that's a big deal to reinterpret the characters as different races. This might be a bad example, but isn't there a Sherlock Holmes show where Watson is female? So what? It's a different take on the character.

 

However, I was majorly offended when they released a book with Anne of Green Gables on the cover as a blond. Some things can be reinterpreted and some things are NOT allowed. :)

 

I agree.  Anne of Green Gables must have red hair.  It's part of the plot.

[vonfirmath]

Black Nancy Drew?

 

Interestingly, this comes right on the heels of the tempest in a teapot that was HP Fandom after the casting of a black actress to play Hermione in the play, but I heard a lot about how Hermione is obviously white (unless she isn't) and thus far I've heard crickets on the subject of Nancy Drew. Probably Nancy Drew fandom is a little less vocal.

 

Not a Nancy Drew fan so much. But there was recently a Annie movie with a black Annie, and done VERY well. (except I'm still sad they didn't come out with a new Annie doll to represent her! I'd like to have both) So why not?  I hadn't heard the furor about Hermione. will have to read up on that because I'm not sure why that would be an issue either.

[Tanaqui]

I agree.  Anne of Green Gables must have red hair.  It's part of the plot.

 

You could have her hate her hair without it being red - she could hate the texture, I suppose? Though I concur that that cover was execrable.

 

[Mimm]

You could have her hate her hair without it being red - she could hate the texture, I suppose? Though I concur that that cover was execrable.

 

Nooo, Anne hated the color and day dreamed all the time about different colors. Golden blond, chestnut brown, raven black, etc.

 

Besides, if you recast Anne as black and then she hated her hair's texture, I don't think that would be a very healthy message to black girls who are all too often sent messages in our society that their natural hair is wrong and needs to be altered. Having a character hate red hair is much less of a problem.

[Corraleno]

And... they've now completely missed the point of what made Nancy Drew interesting.  The fact that she was a teen girl who defied expectations for her age and gender is what made the series so compelling.  Why not turn the character into a guy while they're at it?  

 

So, now basically we have what?  A female detective solving crimes?  Wow, that hasn't already been done a million times before </sarcasm>

 

Exactly: "Now in her 30s, Nancy is a detective for the NYPD where she investigates and solves crimes using her uncanny observational skills, all while navigating the complexities of life in a modern world." I'm gonna go out on a limb here and predict that there'll be a lot of conflict with a brusque supervisor, due to her unconventional methods and disdain for rules and regulations.  :001_rolleyes: 

 

I'm picturing CBS execs sitting around brainstorming new shows: "Well..... we rebooted Sherlock Holmes as a detective for NYPD where he investigates and solves crimes using his uncanny observational skills all while navigating the complexities of the modern world, and that was a hit, so doing the exact same thing with another fictional character should be equally successful, amirite? Oh, and maybe if we cast a nonwhite actress it will seem edgy and original and no one will notice that the premise is totally derivative, unimaginative, and unconnected with the fictional Nancy Drew in any way whatsoever!" <execs high five each other>

 

(FWIW, despite the headline of the BBC article referencing a black Nancy Drew, the producers have never said that she would be black, only that she would be "nonwhite" — in fact, they explicitly said they'd be "open to any ethnicity.") 

[Lady Florida.]

You all are on top of things. I check news sites in the morning, then come here. Often when I get here I see a thread related to something I just read on one of my favorite news sites. :)

 

 

Actually, what bugged me is that this new Nancy will be a woman in her 30's. What in the world?

 

Yeah, that would bother me a little. Even if she has already been done as an adult, I find it hard to see her that way.

 

As to her race, it doesn't bother me at all. I was a huge fan. I think I can trace my love of amateur detective stories to my Nancy Drew days. I graduated to Agatha Christie eventually, and to this day my comfort or brain candy books are mysteries.

 

It's not as though she's a character created by a beloved author. Carolyn Keene was a pseudonym, and the books were written by several ghost writers. Now that bothered me when I found out.  I always imagined the a woman named Carolyn Keene coming up with new mysteries for Nancy and her pals to solve. I wanted to be her and write my own type of young girl detective books. I found out years later as an adult so at least I didn't get let down while I was still into the books.

 

I might give the show a try when it premieres. Dh and I both like detective shows, so if this is well done we might add it to our list of things to watch together. 

 

I knew nothing about the Hermoine thing. Didn't even know there was a stage play. It would seem weird to me if I saw the play, but I wouldn't be upset about it and if the play itself was well done, I'm sure I'd get over it quickly.

[poppy]

Sorry, but, no thanks. Nancy Drew will always be lame compared to Trixie Beldon.  No matter what she looks like. 

 

I predict Kat Graham will be ND.   Not sure why but that's who springs to mind for me.

 

Hermione has been portrayed as a person of color for ages & ages.  This fan art is quite old.  http://batcii.tumblr.com/post/98053894873/anonymous-said-u-should-totally-draw-some

Edited January 19, 2016 by poppy

[trulycrabby]

I don't care what colour Nancy Drew is, as long as the story is good. On another note, I am rooting for Idris Elba to be the next Bond.

Edited January 19, 2016 by trulycrabby

[Bluegoat]

Nooo, Anne hated the color and day dreamed all the time about different colors. Golden blond, chestnut brown, raven black, etc.

 

Besides, if you recast Anne as black and then she hated her hair's texture, I don't think that would be a very healthy message to black girls who are all too often sent messages in our society that their natural hair is wrong and needs to be altered. Having a character hate red hair is much less of a problem.

 

Actually, I think Anne is a good example of a charachter that would be peculiar if you changed her race.  Given the setting, it would be very strange - it would have been something that would have impacted the plot.  It would be hard not to notice that it seemed weird.

 

Now, if you re-set the whole thing into modern times, or even into a city, it would quite possibly work, even without addressing it.

[Word Nerd]

I admit I would be ticked if (when?) there were a female Doctor Who.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Word Nerd

[Tanaqui]

Now, if you re-set the whole thing into modern times, or even into a city, it would quite possibly work, even without addressing it.

 

Like Ana of California? (Though, despite the hype, I found it's probably better to read that novel as a thing unto itself rather than something inspired or influenced by anything else.)