Should she be told or kept in the dark?

[Donna]

Thank you all for the input!!

Edited January 18, 2016 by Donna

[Laurie4b]

There is really no question. Drunk adults should not be supervising children. It's dangerous. You get involved. 

[QueenCat]

Child safety trumps all.

 

:iagree: 100%

[regentrude]

Child safety trumps all.

 

This.

 

[Guest]

I would tell them first that they have a few days to inform their DIL before you go do it yourself, because this is not an option to keep quiet unless they guarantee their sobriety any time the child is around.

[PentecostalMom]

Child safety trumps all.

  

There is really no question. Drunk adults should not be supervising children. It's dangerous. You get involved.

 

  

:iagree: 100%

  

This.

 

All.of.this.

 

What if it were one of your dc?

[BigMamaBird]

Absolutely tell the parents of the 2 y/o that their child's caregiver may be under the influence of alcohol!  If something horrible happened to that child and you didn't say something, imagine the guilt you'd live with.

[RioSamba]

I'm sorry that you are in this position, it must feel awful. Nevertheless, you must tell the parents.

[abba12]

That's awful, because obviously you may be in less of a position to help the relative yourself after telling

 

But, the child's safety is the number one most important thing, particularly because they're so young. You have to tell. 

[PeterPan]

That's pretty optimistic to think their "decision to get help" is actually resulting in action when they aren't then being honest to their own kids.  Sounds more like a ploy to get you off their backs.

[Liz CA]

I'd give them a specific date by which they either have informed their children of the problem or you will inform them. They should have a chance to handle it themselves first.

[annandatje]

Surely the daughter is aware that they have a drinking problem?  How could she not be aware of it?

[Seasider]

If I found out that someone knew my 2yo's caregivers were becoming intoxicated while my child was in their care, and that person didn't warn me.... Wow. There would be no valid excuse for not telling.

[Katy]

I would tell them first that they have a few days to inform their DIL before you go do it yourself, because this is not an option to keep quiet unless they guarantee their sobriety any time the child is around.

 

If it were any issue other than addiction, I would agree with this, as I usually do with Arctic Mama.  But I don't trust addicts.  Addicts lie constantly, it's one of the signs they are addicted.  So I would go with something more along the lines of, "I'm going to call them in 24 hours to talk to them about it.  I really hope you've already told them when I call."

 

That way, they get a brief period to save face rather than procrastinate, and if/when they lie, you have still done what's right.

 

Besides, if they were serious about sobriety they'd already be working the steps, and those include honesty.  For a reason.  The reason being that ALL addicts are liars.

[zoobie]

Is the baby there this weekend? You have to tell. There is no question here. It's a baby. In danger.

[marbel]

If it were any issue other than addiction, I would agree with this, as I usually do with Arctic Mama.  But I don't trust addicts.  Addicts lie constantly, it's one of the signs they are addicted.  So I would go with something more along the lines of, "I'm going to call them in 24 hours to talk to them about it.  I really hope you've already told them when I call."

 

That way, they get a brief period to save face rather than procrastinate, and if/when they lie, you have still done what's right.

 

Besides, if they were serious about sobriety they'd already be working the steps, and those include honesty.  For a reason.  The reason being that ALL addicts are liars.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking, including usually agreeing with AM.   Couple of addicts in my extended family, liars all, and in denial about their addictions, their ability to handle things, all of it.  A guarantee would mean nothing to me.

 

[Laurie4b]

Note: This is not a choice between helping the children or helping your relative. In fact you ARE helping your relative as well as the children by telling the parents. 

If they care about their grandchildren, that will be a wake-up call as to how severely their drinking is impacting other lives. 

You are saving them from the horror of having something happen to their precious grandchildren because they were drunk. Can you even imagine hurting your own child in a worse way that allowing harm to come to *their* child? So it would be a double whammy: hurt your grandchild and hurt y your child in the worst way possible. 

[AmandaVT]

I ask myself "If this were my child, would I want to be told?" and in this case, it's a resounding yes. 

[Seasider]

This is exactly what I was thinking, including usually agreeing with AM. Couple of addicts in my extended family, liars all, and in denial about their addictions, their ability to handle things, all of it. A guarantee would mean nothing to me.

 

For the addict in my life (not substance abuse), it's not even a matter of her lying. The trouble is her perception that there's not a problem with the behavior. Makes the situation harder to tackle.

[Liz CA]

This is exactly what I was thinking, including usually agreeing with AM.   Couple of addicts in my extended family, liars all, and in denial about their addictions, their ability to handle things, all of it.  A guarantee would mean nothing to me.

 

 

After the specific date you set, you find out from their children if they have been informed. A simple "I hope things are going well even in light of the new information...?" or similar would tell pretty quickly if they are aware. I totally agree that you cannot rely on the relative to handle it without following up.

 

[elegantlion]

Yup, protect the child not the addict.

[Farrar]

Do you know or have a means to even tell the child's parents?

 

I agree that they need to be told.

 

They may be aware that there's a problem... but they may not. I mean, sometimes it's hard to see when you don't live there. And some alcoholics can be really high functioning and manage to put all their sabotage onto one arena - in this case, the marriage.

[Ellie]

***Please don't quote as I may delete later***

 

Suppose a relative is having marital problems, calls to discuss these problems with you multiple times, and admits to having a drinking problem (you were kinda figuring that out because relative was drunk when calling you sometimes) and that spouse binge drinks on weekends during which time they argue leading to the marital issues.  Also suppose the relative and spouse often watch their young grandchild for extended periods of time (long weekends and even for a week at a time).

 

They have decided to get help but not tell dd/sil about the drinking issues and ask/actually demand you not get involved when you made it clear you believe the parents of grandchildren should be made aware of the issues so they can decide whether or when they want to leave their young (2yo) child with them.

 

What would you do or would you do anything? Is it not your place to get involved? 

 

I'd be calling the parents.

 

If people don't want you to be involved, they shouldn't have told you anything in the first place.

 

In fact, it would be a good idea for you not to let this relative talk to you about the marital problems. At all. Ever. As in you warn her that you don't want to hear anything and that you'll hang up if she continues, and if she continues...hang up.

 

[Guest]

This is exactly what I was thinking, including usually agreeing with AM. Couple of addicts in my extended family, liars all, and in denial about their addictions, their ability to handle things, all of it. A guarantee would mean nothing to me.

 

I wasn't sure they were actually addicted as opposed to stress drinking. There is a line there of choice - addicts are definitely beyond their word but that didn't sound like it from the OP.

 

So OP, if it sounds to you like this has taken on a life of its own and they're incapable of self control in it I agree with the ladies that they get a few days to tell the mom before you do, but promises to not drink are very likely empty. It just depends. I've known heavy drinkers who weren't addicts, but not many and not of their age :(

[Carol in Cal.]

I'd say, "You have to tell them.  I will help you."  And I'd make it stick.

I'd set up the meeting and everything.  Host it even.

 

I knew someone when DD was in preschool who was an absolutely outstanding mother.  I learned a TON from her.  She brought a lot of intention and thoughtfulness into everything she did.  Except, she had one blind spot.  Her parents were always drinkers.  And they drove her kid around like that.  And neither she nor her husband prevented that.  The grandmother moved in, and stories started to be floated like, "I can't believe my mother drove GD with a drink in her hand."  It was absolutely astounding, coming from THIS excellent mother particularly.

 

It is really, really easy to have blind spots around 'normalized' behavior like that; appalling, dangerous blind spots.  Don't be surprised if the GD ends up being left there in spite of this.  But start by making sure that GD's parents hear about it ASAP.

[FO4UR]

I'd call the parents asap. They need to know.

 

I would not tell the grandparents that I was going to call.  The parents might choose to find alternate childcare without starting a fight over the drunkenness.  The grandparents need help, but NOT at the expense of the baby...and the baby does not need to be used as a pawn in this.

 

If I were the parents, I would separate the issues of childcare and getting help for the addictions.  The only way to do that is if they are made aware without tipping the grandparents off.

[gardenmom5]

their feelings are irrelevant.  this is about the child's safety.

[gardenmom5]

I would tell them first that they have a few days to inform their DIL before you go do it yourself, because this is not an option to keep quiet unless they guarantee their sobriety any time the child is around.

 

how would they guarantee their sobriety?  they both get drunk on weekends.  that isn't going to change just becasue they're told they have to stay sober to have their grandchild around. that's human nature.

[KungFuPanda]

What is the argument FOR keeping the mother in the dark? If she grew up in that house, I'm guessing she KNOWS what her parents are like. Call me pessimistic, but I'll bet she drops the kid off even after she is told. If she truly has no clue, it would be wrong not to tell her.

[gardenmom5]

Surely the daughter is aware that they have a drinking problem?  How could she not be aware of it?

 

de nile.  it's not a river in egypt.   frequently, even when loved ones are aware there is a problem, they ignore it, hoping it will go away.  my mother's grandfather's were both alcoholics - I saw some of the behaviors that enable alcoholics carried down.   if it's out of sight, it's out of mind and they don't have to deal with it.  

if they have the gumption to deal with it - it's a confrontation, and addics lie. and get good at pretend.

 

eta: I vote for telling the mom - even if she knows (and it could have become worse since she left), she needs to have the excuse taken away that she "doesn't" know.  she - and the parents - need to know the secret is out, and people outside the immediate family are aware it is going on.  it makes it harder to continue to "deny" at that point.

Edited January 16, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Laurie4b]

If the parents leave the child with drinking parents even after you tell them, then you have to call CPS. A 2 year old cannot be left with drunk adults.

[redsquirrel]

I have known 2 people who had long term drinking problems who kept it from their families, as in their family swear they never knew. But, when the drinkers got older, they couldn't hide it any longer. It changed from occasional binging to alcoholism.

 

Even if it is their daughter she might think they would never drink with the baby there, or that it is not as bad as it has become in the past few years, or they promised her they wouldn't drink when the baby is there.

 

Or she tells herself that she is fine so the baby will be fine.

 

But to make you keep that secret for them? Classic addict move...to make you complicit in their addiction.

 

Stop it now. It has to stop with you. There is far too much silence in that family and you are going to have to be the one to speak up.

 

And be prepared that nothing might change. I hope not, but it might not change.

[Catwoman]

What is the argument FOR keeping the mother in the dark? If she grew up in that house, I'm guessing she KNOWS what her parents are like. Call me pessimistic, but I'll bet she drops the kid off even after she is told. If she truly has no clue, it would be wrong not to tell her.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I know some people are good at hiding their alcoholism from others, but hiding it from your own grown child is a different matter. I'll bet they promised they would never drink around the baby or something, and their dd made the unfortunate decision to trust them.

 

But I would still rat them out, just in case the baby's parents truly don't know. And I would make sure to tell both the daughter and her dh, in case she knows her parents drink but he is unaware of the problem.

[Aiden]

Tell the parent of the 2yo. I'd be hesitant to even give the grandparents warning that I was going to, although my preference would be for them to tell first. Too many people would take that opportunity to poison the well, so to speak--to tell lies about you to the child's mother to make it less likely that she'll believe you. I'd be on the phone with her this instant, and I may or may not tell the grandparents afterward that I'd told. If I became aware that the child was over there again without a responsible adult present, I'd call CPS. They may or may not get involved if you couldn't say definitively that the grandparents were drunk at that time, but when it comes to a toddler in the care of (non-recovering) alcoholics ... yeah, I'd make both of those calls.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I'm a firm believer of not getting involved in other peoples "stuff" but in this case I'd have to tell, in no uncertain terms. I also wouldn't warn them first so they can spin it to make them look better.  I would mention that g-parents are getting help/counselling and hopefully soon the binge drinking will no longer be an issue.

 

I have a friend whose marriage is falling apart due the husbands drinking and more recently the wife's drinking (as a coping mechanism) and I can't let my DC visit any more.  We're not teetotalers so no aversion to alcohol but my child's safety and exposure to bad situations (the arguing) trumps my friends feelings.    

[DawnM]

I have a few questions.

 

Will the children believe you when you tell them?

If you call CPS, will CPS ensure they go during the weekend?  Usually they don't.

 

I am asking because this may need to be done very carefully or it could backfire and you could be made the bad guy.

 

Have they told anyone else that they have a drinking problem?  Could you elicit some back up?

[Ellie]

And be prepared that nothing might change. I hope not, but it might not change.

 

Or she might become the bad guy and the others won't talk to her.

[Donna]

Yes, if it were my child, I would be furious if no one told me. My husband is actually the person related to these people so I am in a very awkward spot. 

 

They may not be alcoholics at this point but it is difficult for me to know that and family history especially of the relative, suggests the relative (the spouse probably not addicted but a weekend stress/binge drinker) is most likely headed that way if they aren't an alcoholic already. My thinking is that if the relative is truly serious about getting help and quitting, then honesty is the first step and coming clean to the people around you is very important because it brings things into the open. 

 

The relative claims they never drink when the child is around. I know addicts lie and I have no way of knowing because they live about 10 hours from us. They have 3 dc and I know their ds knows and he along with both parents are purposefully keeping it from his sister. I also know their other dd (who lives across the state from them) knows the relative drinks because she mentioned it to us when we last visited a couple months ago. I do not know if the mother of the grandchild knows they drink or that it is a problem. I have to believe if she thought it was an issue, she would not leave her child with them as often or for as long as she does. (They live 2 hours from the relative.) Relative claims they do not want to tell the parents of their grandchild because they will keep the grandchild from them even though they do not drink around the child. I believe the parents have the right to decide whether they will trust them or not.

[Donna]

What is the argument FOR keeping the mother in the dark? If she grew up in that house, I'm guessing she KNOWS what her parents are like. Call me pessimistic, but I'll bet she drops the kid off even after she is told. If she truly has no clue, it would be wrong not to tell her.

 

I know for a fact that the drinking issues are relatively new…as in at most in the last few years (two maybe three). Sure, there was a glass of wine here or there and a couple beers on the weekend but the amount of drinking has increased as their own dc grew up and left the house to go to college. This year their youngest went off to college and the problems with the marriage have increased and the relative just recently admitted much of the issue was due to drinking.

[Donna]

I would not tell anything about the couple's marital problems or intentions around counseling or anything along those lines. I would tell the child's parents that the grandparents are getting drunk while caring for the child. I would tell what I had personally observed, not what I had been told. "[Friend], sometimes when I talk to your mom on the phone she is noticeably drunk. I'm worried that your parents are drinking while caring for your child."

 

 

See this is just the thing…I do not know for a fact  that they drink while caring for the child. The relative does not call intoxicated while caring for the child…don't call at all when caring for the child. The relative calls intoxicated at times when they are home alone. We live 10 hours away so do not know for a fact what does go on.

[Anne in CA]

My guess is also that the parents of the two year old know. Denial is a strong force and the grandparents probably believe that their kids don't know how much they drink, but IME most alcoholics think they are much sneakier than they really are.

[gardenmom5]

I edited to may be getting drunk while caring for the child, but you were too quick! I would still tell, in pretty much the same language I used. You know they get drunk, you're worried that they may do it while caring for the child. That's information that the child's parents have a right to know.

 

the wife getting drunk during the week on a regular basis sounds like she's getting out of control- she would be less likely to *be able* to control her drinking when the child is there.  especially if she's drinking to help her "cope".   the husband binge drinking actually has more control.

and the parents need to know the cat is out of the bag that grandma and grandpa are getting drunk regularly  -

even if they're not drinking now, (and they shouldn't be drinking at all while caring for the child. it slows reaction time.) eventually, the presence of the child will not stop them from drinking.

[Bluegoat]

Do you know why the brother has decided to keep it from the sister?  What does your husband think?

[Pen]

I am not clear on the relationships, but you ARE involved since you have been told things and have yourself thought that your relative sounded intoxicated on phone calls.

 

I assume you are probably a relative of the child and the child's parents as well as of the grandparents. So you are also involved by being a family member.

 

I think you need to tell the parents of the child (both parents, not just the "she" unless the other parent is divorced or otherwise out of the picture) what you know of the situation as regards the drinking. Caring for a child for a week period makes it likely that drinking and caring for the child would at some time coincide, even if it has not yet happened. And it may already have happened. 

 

It does not sound like an especially healthy situation for the child to be staying for extensive periods with gp with marital problems going on even if they manage to not drink while the child is there. I would think the parents would want to make other arrangements for child care until such time as the gp situation is resolved. Unless their circumstances are such that this is the least bad alternative they can manage--if they have to be gone due to work for a week at a time at the same time as each other and cannot take the child, have one parent stay with the child, or afford any other care option, perhaps...  And since the child's parents are apparently more local to the gp couple they are probably in a better position to also help the gp couple if that is needed.

[Plink]

((hugs))  The advice is pretty unanimous.  Just know that implementing it is going to be awkward and messy.  If you are able to follow through, know that you are doing the right thing, even if you feel stressed and uncomfortable.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Plink

[Donna]

Do you know why the brother has decided to keep it from the sister? What does your husband think?

The brother lives with the grandparents at least part of the time now. I think brother and gps have talked about the problems and for some reason decided not to tell. To me it sounds like enabling. My dh has dealt with alcohol issues in the past and has not had a single drink in over 4 years. (The family history of alcohol abuse runs back through at least his great grandparents on both sides.)

 

DH admitted he had a problem and quit on his own. He has told relative the mother and father need to be told. Keeping the secret is not admitting to the problem. As of today, he told the relative she has until the end of this week to tell or he will. They are all angry at him and have stopped communicating with him but dh will stick to his guns. He and I are appalled they want to keep the secret...which was my reason for the post in the first place without giving my complete opinion. I wanted to be sure we were thinking clearly and not just overreacting.