Voluntary...but not really? WWYT?

[Mrs. B]

My guess is the teacher gets an incentive for full class participation.

 

ETA: I wouldn't participate based on principle even if I had the time. If I were tempted to participate, I would lie in answer to all the questions to screw up the data.

[gardenmom5]

My guess is the teacher gets an incentive for full class participation.

 

in which case, the teacher *should* be upfront.

[mamaraby]

This whole situation sounds like workplace giving to the United Way.  It's "voluntary," but if you don't give your employer will hound you and guilt you into doing it because 100% participation is the goal.  So not voluntary.

[Mrs. B]

This whole situation sounds like workplace giving to the United Way. It's "voluntary," but if you don't give your employer will hound you and guilt you into doing it because 100% participation is the goal. So not voluntary.

Precisely what I was thinking about in my conclusion. One year, I didn't know the employer got a good rating for 100% returned United Way forms and I threw it out. My boss gasped, because then they couldn't return it. The next year, she kindly handed it to me and asked me to write $0.00 on the giving amount and took it back. She was fine with me not giving, but wasn't fine with not having her dept. turn in 100% of the forms. However, United Way had my name and employer info for their data base.

[Ellie]

Some of the things I've heard of recently where a student has to do something that seems absurd... some I know has a middle schooler at a school where they demanded he have a smart phone for assignments and that he bring it to class. Kids who didn't bring one had their grades docked. I wouldn't be surprised if the OP's dd loses some sort of grade over this.

 

And if that happens, the parents should be all over the teacher.

[abba12]

the iphone thing is ridiculous, I have no intention of buying my kids smartphones until they're old enough to go out alone, probably high school. And as a bullying victim, there's no way I'm sending an expensive piece of equipment to class to be stolen/broken. Can they seriously do that? That's just unbelievable.

 

Waiting impatiently for the email!

[Joker]

Both of my dds have to bring iPads daily to class. Most of their work is on there as well. The school does provide them for each student but we have to pay $125/year for the use. That's on top of paying for textbooks. My amount due this school year is $700. I hear they have options for those in need but I don't know what they are as we don't qualify.

 

 

ETA: That $700 doesn't include any of the other stuff. Yearbooks, school supplies, tickets to events/programs they are in...

[Bluegoat]

Both of my dds have to bring iPads daily to class. Most of their work is on there as well. The school does provide them for each student but we have to pay $125/year for the use. That's on top of paying for textbooks. My amount due this school year is $700. I hear they have options for those in need but I don't know what they are as we don't qualify.

 

 

ETA: That $700 doesn't include any of the other stuff. Yearbooks, school supplies, tickets to events/programs they are in...

 

That is insane. 

 

What is the point of that supposed to be?  The pedagogical value?

 

It's just idiotic worship of technology.

 

[Tsuga]

I would think the teacher has violated the human subjects and institutional research rules of the school district and take it right up the line. Look up the district lawyer and/or ombudsman.

 

Once they do not give you a real choice, once you feel strong armed, it's no longer voluntary.

 

This teacher is likely unaware of the legal and ethical implications of her actions.

 

I would kindly but firmly explain. Pm me your district and I'll find you the law or policy on this.

 

Informed consent is a big deal in education.

[Tsuga]

My guess is the teacher gets an incentive for full class participation.

 

ETA: I wouldn't participate based on principle even if I had the time. If I were tempted to participate, I would lie in answer to all the questions to screw up the data.

If she does it is a gross conflict of interest. Unfortunately many teachers have no idea that there are laws and policies regarding research on students.

 

The teacher almost certainly did not follow protocol when she tried to sting arm the one child. Having failed to facilitate informed and voluntary consent, her human subjects review committee may very well deny the entire thing. Anyway ours would. You don't mess around with kids and consent.

[MyThreeSons]

Holy crap, even if my kids do have devices I'd demand a meeting with teacher and principal and that policy would be changed immediately. A smart phone is not on the school supply list, and if they are stupid enough to use a curriculum that demands it they should use their funding to purchase devices. It is completely unethical to systematically dock the grades of children who cannot afford them, and probably illegal.  If it's not illegal it should be.  Of all the stupid school stories I've heard recently...

 

My grandma worked for a school district when I was a kid. She was known to be the one who knew all of the rules. She told us that it was illegal for a public school to require a student to supply so much as a pencil or piece of paper. By state law, the school had to make available everything a student needed. Of course, many of us did buy our own pencils, binders, notebook paper, etc. This was in CA in the 60s / 70s.

[KungFuPanda]

Dear Teacher,

 

I have opted out of this voluntary survey. However, my daughter is still feeling some sort of social or academic pressure for me to comply. Will you please explain to her that this survey isn't mandatory and help put her mind at ease?

 

Thanks for your help,

 

Mom

[Mrs. B]

OP, please update when you can. I normally don't care if I don't get the end of the story in a posting, but for some reason I am overly curious about this one. Maybe because outside authority figures telling kids something is compulsory that their parents do not find compulsory hits a nerve? It is only a seemingly harmless survey, but this irks me!

[SproutMamaK]

I keep checking back to see if there's an update. Like Mrs B, I have no idea why I feel so interested in this one, but I HAVE to know how the teacher is going to try to justify this.

[LMD]

the iphone thing is ridiculous, I have no intention of buying my kids smartphones until they're old enough to go out alone, probably high school. And as a bullying victim, there's no way I'm sending an expensive piece of equipment to class to be stolen/broken. Can they seriously do that? That's just unbelievable.

 

Waiting impatiently for the email!

The school my kids were zoned for required parent-purchased iPads from fyos. And netbooks from 3rd. They use 'apps across the curriculum'. The parents I spoke to were upset about their kids watching inappropriate YouTube in class...

 

Also, subbing!

[Joker]

The school my kids were zoned for required parent-purchased iPads from fyos. And netbooks from 3rd. They use 'apps across the curriculum'. The parents I spoke to were upset about their kids watching inappropriate YouTube in class...

 

Also, subbing!

 

My dds recently did tell me they see a lot of this. I guess since Youtube is used some in class that none of it can be blocked. Other sites are blocked while on the school's wifi but all of Youtube is accessible. We've talked with our dds about the school monitoring what they do and view on these devices since they are school issued and they do nothing other than school work but it appears many students don't care. I was, I guess stupidly, surprised.

[Lady Florida.]

My dd in ps hs brought home a form asking the the parents to be involved in an online health and fitness survey. The form emphasized it was completely voluntary and parents can opt out any time after. I declined to participate. A few days later my dd brings home the same form and tells me her teacher said everyone participates and bring back the signed form.

What do you think?

 

Any time after what? Did it ask that you fill it out initially, then not continue? Is it after the first time that you can opt out?

 

If this is a class assignment and not something required by the school, I'm not a fan of that kind of thing. I say this as a former teacher. I think any time you ask parents to be involved in something you need to make it voluntary. Your child is in the class, not you.

[Lady Florida.]

Dear All4One,

 

Too long. Didn't read. I like lattes too! :-)

 

Sending another form.

 

(You. Will. Com-ply! Com-ply! Com-ply!)

 

Hem. I mean, thank you for your com-pl-- co-operation. Education is important. :-)

 

Sincerely,

Teacher with Persistance.

 

tl;dr is appropriate for social media, but that letter is not too long for a teacher to read and I wouldn't assume a teacher won't read it. It's actually quite short. I've read multi-page handwritten letters from parents of my students. 

[Joules]

Just as a note, I would not sign up and then opt out if you don't want your information shared.  Once you sign up, the school will likely have permission to share everything it has on you, even if you don't ever fill out a word.  It's hard to get that cat back in the bag.

 

I opted-out of my doctor's NoMoreClipboard service and just get my results by going into the office.  They used it for their record-keeping anyway, and my information was stolen: billing information and everything they had.  I got a free couple of years of monitoring service, but I'm very angry about it.  We've been victims of identity theft before to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars that took months to sort out.  Just a few health questions may not be a big deal, but I'd wonder what the school system was sharing from their end.  They collect lots of info to register kids for school.

[All4one]

I keep checking my email and so far nothing from the teacher. I'm going to insist he give me something in writing stating I have to be involved in the survey.

It's a non-profit group working in partnership with the school. I have nothing against the group and I'm fine with dd doing the program.

I think the pp who said teachers might be incentivized to increase involvement is probably right. I also think the non-profit would not be happy if they knew that heavy tactics are being used to get participants. This would risk skewing data.

[DawnM]

Both of my dds have to bring iPads daily to class. Most of their work is on there as well. The school does provide them for each student but we have to pay $125/year for the use. That's on top of paying for textbooks. My amount due this school year is $700. I hear they have options for those in need but I don't know what they are as we don't qualify.

 

 

ETA: That $700 doesn't include any of the other stuff. Yearbooks, school supplies, tickets to events/programs they are in...

 

 

Is this public?

 

Our local PS gives each child an iPad, and the parents pay something, but it is refundable.  It is just a deposit, probably to ensure the kids take care of them better.  There is no cost for textbooks.  I don't even get how they can do this unless it is a community college type magnet program.

 

My middle son goes to a small charter school.  No iPads, no laptops, and no requests for smartphones. 

 

They do ask each family to donate $100 per child to the school improvement fund.  Only about 1/10th of the families even participate.  I don't mind participating as it is the only thing they ask.  

 

Dawn

[Alessandra]

Op, the word that jumped out at me was "online." Once you are online, not only are you no longer anonymous, but you could be exposing a lot of private info to the survey people.

 

I agree with Tsuga that there is probably a district policy or state regulations about this kind of thing. But you are in a tricky position making an enemy, potentially, of one of your kids teachers this early in the year.

 

If it were a paper survey, I might just fill in garbage. But the computer is different. I agree with the poster who advised not to go on line, even to opt out. FERPA used to provide strong privacy rights, but the law has been gutted in recent years to allow sharing a lot of data with subcontractors without requiring specific permission from families.

 

If I were in your position, I would think about who I knew, even slightly -- a board of Ed member, for example, and call them. I would be hesitant about writing an email with multiple copies. Institutions can get very defensive, covering up, when something is put in writing. But a phone call can allow them to clamp down on a potentially embarrassing situation before it gets out of hand.

[bolt.]

tl;dr is appropriate for social media, but that letter is not too long for a teacher to read and I wouldn't assume a teacher won't read it. It's actually quite short. I've read multi-page handwritten letters from parents of my students.

I'm sorry that my sense of irony did not make it across the written media divide.

 

I also joked in the fictional-exaggeration way that she my imaginary teacher character actually did not know the definition of "voluntary" and that she perhaps thinks that the world actually needs more compliant women with low vocabulary skills. I did not think that also joking that the fictional character I created would not read a long letter was off-genre for such a sarcastic and snarky flight of fancy.

 

I'm sure real teachers do read things.

[Lady Florida.]

I'm sorry that my sense of irony did not make it across the written media divide.

 

I also joked in the fictional-exaggeration way that she my imaginary teacher character actually did not know the definition of "voluntary" and that she perhaps thinks that the world actually needs more compliant women with low vocabulary skills. I did not think that also joking that the fictional character I created would not read a long letter was off-genre for such a sarcastic and snarky flight of fancy.

 

I'm sure real teachers do read things.

 

Got it. Sorry about that.

[Joanne]

On the technology expectation in the classroom, we require students to have something available if the teacher asks for class: smart phone, tablet, netbook, laptop.

 

We require teachers to use technology at some point each semester.

[Joker]

Is this public?

 

Our local PS gives each child an iPad, and the parents pay something, but it is refundable.  It is just a deposit, probably to ensure the kids take care of them better.  There is no cost for textbooks.  I don't even get how they can do this unless it is a community college type magnet program.

 

My middle son goes to a small charter school.  No iPads, no laptops, and no requests for smartphones. 

 

They do ask each family to donate $100 per child to the school improvement fund.  Only about 1/10th of the families even participate.  I don't mind participating as it is the only thing they ask.  

 

Dawn

 

It's public school. I've looked it up and it seems my state is one of eight to charge for textbooks for public school students. At least for my state, it appears to be completely legal due wording in one line of the state constitution.

 

 

ETA: I've also recently received an email stating if the bill isn't paid in full by February they send you to their school's version of a collections agency. I don't know what that means but I'm sure it would affect my students much more than myself (by possibly witholding report cards and other things).

[barnwife]

On the technology expectation in the classroom, we require students to have something available if the teacher asks for class: smart phone, tablet, netbook, laptop.

 

We require teachers to use technology at some point each semester.

 

Except that might not be legal. It's a free and appropriate public education.

 

Therefore, technically schools can not require parents to provide anything (not even a piece of paper). At least, that's what I learned in my education classes back in the day (early 2000s).

 

Even if we choose to use public schools at some point, we will not be providing any technology to be used in class. And yes, I'd take that to the legal system if necessary.

 

 

[Wabi Sabi]

Except that might not be legal. It's a free and appropriate public education.

 

Therefore, technically schools can not require parents to provide anything (not even a piece of paper). At least, that's what I learned in my education classes back in the day (early 2000s).

 

Even if we choose to use public schools at some point, we will not be providing any technology to be used in class. And yes, I'd take that to the legal system if necessary.

 

 

 

Every state is different. In my state ALL public schools have a textbook fee and many now have technology fees for laptops/ipads as well. Additionally, some cash strapped school districts charge bus fees. It has been taken to the state level Supreme Court and the fees have been upheld. 

[Katy]

Every state is different. In my state ALL public schools have a textbook fee and many now have technology fees for laptops/ipads as well. Additionally, some cash strapped school districts charge bus fees. It has been taken to the state level Supreme Court and the fees have been upheld. 

 

Curious if you would mind sharing your state.  What happens if a parent simply doesn't have the money for the fees?  Are they waived if a student cannot or will not pay? 

[shawthorne44]

I keep checking my email and so far nothing from the teacher. I'm going to insist he give me something in writing stating I have to be involved in the survey.

It's a non-profit group working in partnership with the school. I have nothing against the group and I'm fine with dd doing the program.

I think the pp who said teachers might be incentivized to increase involvement is probably right. I also think the non-profit would not be happy if they knew that heavy tactics are being used to get participants. This would risk skewing data.

 

Whenever I am forced to do something that results in a record in a database, I do everything I can to mess up the data.  

 

So, for this one my diet would be precisely match the latest government recommendations, I'd exercise at least an hour a day, and I'd have several bad diseases.  Also, no smoking or drinking or bad habits.  For religion I'd put Humanist.  

[gardenmom5]

Except that might not be legal. It's a free and appropriate public education.

 

Therefore, technically schools can not require parents to provide anything (not even a piece of paper). At least, that's what I learned in my education classes back in the day (early 2000s).

 

Even if we choose to use public schools at some point, we will not be providing any technology to be used in class. And yes, I'd take that to the legal system if necessary.

 

 

 

My only experinece with technology requirements was for the TI calculators.  even they were not "required", but strongly suggested or else the student would be having to share with other students using district provided ones in the classroom only.  dd was careless with one - and it was stolen.  I've bought a few when money was really tight - and sold some too.

 

same thing with instruments. instruments have been required in our district for 5th grade for over 25 years.  they have *some* available for students, but mostly you have to rent them yourself.   I think I always ended up buying one.  and then selling it.

but even exceptionally large instruments, re: bass, students are expected to provide one at home and the school will provide one at school so the student doesn't have to transport the beheamoth every day.

families who would find it a financial hardship are encouraged to discuss it with their teacher.

[Tsuga]

On the technology expectation in the classroom, we require students to have something available if the teacher asks for class: smart phone, tablet, netbook, laptop.

 

We require teachers to use technology at some point each semester.

 

This whole thing bowls me over. Our teachers get laptops and/or tablets for work just like other employees. Children who must type assignments are given free access to the computer lab after school and the school also sends home information about public labs at the library, where public school students with homework get priority.

 

ETA: There are no requirements to type anything but typed assignments until 6th, by the way, when there is in-class time to type, and moreover, they can't force a child with an IEP to hand-write something,e other, and must provide the instrument for typing. Which is why I have to spend hours and hours on PTSA crap for fundraising, but whatever, the kids are worth it.

 

You do have to buy a calculator BUT! If you have free and reduced lunch you may apply, discreetly, for a free calculator. There are programs that reach out to families.

 

You do have to rent an instrument BUT! Again, there are non-profit programs. You don't have to ask. The slip is submitted where all the PTSA membership forms and everything else are submitted, anonymously, and then they contact you outside of the school and arrange for you to pick up the instrument with the account at the music store. Unless there is a problem and someone else is at the music store behind you in line nobody will know.

 

That's how I got my instrument.

 

We do have to buy a bunch of stuff at the beginning of school, but the whole reason there's a list and you bring a bag is so that it all gets mixed in together so that nobody knows whose was missing and the school can just fill in the gaps anonymously. Nobody is supposed to have anything better than anybody else.

 

How incredibly sad that in some areas they have not figured this out. We have a lot of inequality here and the school district works hard to minimize it.

[Tsuga]

Whenever I am forced to do something that results in a record in a database, I do everything I can to mess up the data.  

 

So, for this one my diet would be precisely match the latest government recommendations, I'd exercise at least an hour a day, and I'd have several bad diseases.  Also, no smoking or drinking or bad habits.  For religion I'd put Humanist.  

 

You can opt out, you know.

 

Just don't answer any of those questions. Then your record will be removed. LOTS of people do this. I would say about 5% of the records I deal with--academic records--are people who have clearly refused to provide any demographic or contact data beyond an e-mail created only for use at the school. That's 1/20.

 

Also, statistical analysis packages are designed to remove total outliers like people who say every member of their family has cancer but they themselves are 109 years old. You might be enjoying yourself but you're hardly messing up the data. The opt-outs actually have a much stronger effect because they force people to change the question.

[Joanne]

 

Except that might not be legal. It's a free and appropriate public education.

 

Therefore, technically schools can not require parents to provide anything (not even a piece of paper). At least, that's what I learned in my education classes back in the day (early 2000s).

 

Even if we choose to use public schools at some point, we will not be providing any technology to be used in class. And yes, I'd take that to the legal system if necessary.

 

 

My school, a private one, can absolutely make that requirement. We also have written into our handbook that we don't always for "technology" excuses such as no printer, no ink, email didn't work.

[Nart]

Curious if you would mind sharing your state.  What happens if a parent simply doesn't have the money for the fees?  Are they waived if a student cannot or will not pay? 

 

I don't know what state the PP is in but, according to the California Constitution guarantee of free schooling, California public schools can't require parents pay anything for classes- no book fees, participation fees for elective or extracurricular classes, no required electronics, nor field trip fees, etc. Schools can charge for PE uniforms but not school sport team uniforms.  

[Farrar]

I think it's fine for private schools to require it. I also think it's dramatically more likely that the families can provide it (though having worked in private schools, I know that sometimes there are struggling families there too...).

 

But in public schools, I think it's a travesty. Either they require that kids have a certain level of tech on their own, which we mostly agree is not okay. Or they provide them somehow (sometimes with a lease fee, but that's much easier to waive than "go get a smartphone yourself"). But the investment in the technology, which will only live for a couple of years, the textbooks, which expire after a couple of years, and the possibilities for other problems with it (less physical notetaking, abuse of the internet, privacy issues, etc.) makes it feel like a huge waste of money. They could have spent that on real books and instruments and new teachers for goodness sake. Plus it's just deepening the gulf between the haves and the have nots in school districts.

 

Sigh. I know that was a tangent I started. Sorry if I took the OP too far off course. I'm curious where this goes with the OP's "voluntary" survey.

[barnwife]

My school, a private one, can absolutely make that requirement. We also have written into our handbook that we don't always for "technology" excuses such as no printer, no ink, email didn't work.

Oh private schools are a whole different ball of wax. They absolutely can charge fees/require certain tools/technology.

 

 

[AHASRADA]

I tutor ESL students after school. Several have told me the teacher writes the assignment on the board, without leaving enough time for the students to copy it down. They are expected to take a picture of the board with their phone. These kids don't have phones, so they have to try to get it from a friend, etc.

 

These schools have online portals where assignments can be posted, but often the teachers don't bother to post them if they were already given out in class.

 

Oh yes, and no hand outs either. All worksheets, etc. are on the portal and students are expected to print them themselves. These kids don't have a printer, so they often write out the questions by hand, or pay $0.10 per page at school or the library.

[Guest]

I tutor ESL students after school. Several have told me the teacher writes the assignment on the board, without leaving enough time for the students to copy it down. They are expected to take a picture of the board with their phone. These kids don't have phones, so they have to try to get it from a friend, etc.

 

These schools have online portals where assignments can be posted, but often the teachers don't bother to post them if they were already given out in class.

 

Oh yes, and no hand outs either. All worksheets, etc. are on the portal and students are expected to print them themselves. These kids don't have a printer, so they often write out the questions by hand, or pay $0.10 per page at school or the library.

 

Unacceptable. Insanity.

[Carol in Cal.]

Every state is different. In my state ALL public schools have a textbook fee and many now have technology fees for laptops/ipads as well. Additionally, some cash strapped school districts charge bus fees. It has been taken to the state level Supreme Court and the fees have been upheld. 

In my state requirements on the parents are lies.

 

You can enroll your child in a parent participation charter school, and although they say at the beginning of the year that they require a certain level of parent work, they can't really require it.  So they are lying when they say that.  It's the same for those fees and such.

 

The only things they can legally charge for are extra-curricular activities like science camp, school team sports, etc.  So they gradually move more and more stuff into those categories.  Now most art and music is extra-curricular, and science below a certain grade level is not necessarily taught at all. 

[foxbridgeacademy]

It's good that my children are HSed, I think I would have taken DD to school the morning after the second notice and had a talk  with the Principle and Teacher.  

[abba12]

I tutor ESL students after school. Several have told me the teacher writes the assignment on the board, without leaving enough time for the students to copy it down. They are expected to take a picture of the board with their phone. These kids don't have phones, so they have to try to get it from a friend, etc.

 

These schools have online portals where assignments can be posted, but often the teachers don't bother to post them if they were already given out in class.

 

Oh yes, and no hand outs either. All worksheets, etc. are on the portal and students are expected to print them themselves. These kids don't have a printer, so they often write out the questions by hand, or pay $0.10 per page at school or the library.

 

That is so wrong.... 

[mommaduck]

Any update or email?

[Mimm]

It's good that my children are HSed, I think I would have taken DD to school the morning after the second notice and had a talk  with the Principle and Teacher.  

 

Most people have reasons their children are in public school that are not overcome by getting an annoying form twice. :)

[SJ.]

OP, Did you receive a response from the teacher?  Just curious...

 

[Tsuga]

It's good that my children are HSed, I think I would have taken DD to school the morning after the second notice and had a talk with the Principle and Teacher.

Funny, I thought, it's too bad this wasn't me. I'd have gone on for a talk with the teacher and the principal and straightened this policy out once and for all. We public school and I don't mind participating in stuff like this. In fact I do it all the time!

[Alicia64]

The form did have an opt-out portion to sign which I did send back. Honestly it sounds like a long survey where they are data-mining and it is more than one time.

I feel like my kid is being strong-armed because she was upset when I said I didn't have to participate.

She wanted to know what to tell her teacher so I said he needed to send me a form where it says I must participate. The form now says I read and voluntarily agree to participate.

Before it was inconvenient now it's become matter of principle. I don't want her thinking she has to answer everything she's asked because someone says she has to, KWIM? 😒

 

Yikes.

[All4one]

No email, yet.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I keep checking my email and so far nothing from the teacher. I'm going to insist he give me something in writing stating I have to be involved in the survey.

It's a non-profit group working in partnership with the school. I have nothing against the group and I'm fine with dd doing the program.

I think the pp who said teachers might be incentivized to increase involvement is probably right. I also think the non-profit would not be happy if they knew that heavy tactics are being used to get participants. This would risk skewing data.

I'd then take a copy of original letter and email to the principal and the non-profit and raise a big fuss.  

[Cinder]

:bigear: