KY clerk refuses to issue marriage licenses

[melmichigan]

What would they do if she became mentally incapacitated, or if she stopped coming to work?  Surely they would have a mechanism to put someone else in her chair.  I find it hard to believe jail / fines are the only options.

 

 

This is addressed in the link, further up thread, where you can read the ruling that she is being held in contempt of (it's long but worth a read).   :)  If she were incapacitated a judge could order the issuance of licenses, but refusal to do the job is not considered "in absence".  Some of this is specific to the way the law is written in Kentucky and wouldn't apply the same way in other places.

 

If her clerks step forward she would not get out of jail, it would just prevent them as individuals from fines or jail time.  Her lawyer already tried to prevent them from being able to issue them in her absence, but the law addresses that, and the judge denied the request.

[Word Nerd]

So, say one of her clerks steps forward to issue the licenses. Will she then get out of jail? Will she be able to fire her clerk?

 

No. She only gets out of jail if she agrees to issue the licenses herself (i.e., do her job). I'm assuming if none of the five agree to do follow his order, the judge will find another official who will.

[SKL]

I can't read the whole thread, but has it been mentioned that Rand Paul is also on her side?  He thinks there should have been another way to get it done, without forcing her to sign her approval of something she doesn't believe in.

[albeto.]

No. She only gets out of jail if she agrees to issue the licenses herself (i.e., do her job).

 

inb4 god tells her it's okay now

 

Sleeping in a jail cell will undoubtedly influence the "conversation" she has with god, lol!

[SKL]

I mean I'll try to catch up later, but right now I'm supposed to be working ... :P

[Word Nerd]

inb4 god tells her it's okay now

 

Sleeping in a jail cell will undoubtedly influence the "conversation" she has with god, lol!

 

Her hands are definitely tied now. We'll shortly see how serious she is about her persecution complex and how far she's willing to take it...

[Pam in CT]

Aww, that's a shame.  Now she really will be a Martyr.

 

 

 

Unfortunately the only things at the judge's disposal are jail and fines.

She's an elected official, not someone who can be fired at will and apparently the only mechanism to relieve her of her duties is for the state legislature to impeach her. The state legislature doesn't convene until January of 2016.

I agree that going to jail just feeds her martyr thing though but I can see why, between time she'd have to serve and money others would pay for her, he chose the option that would affect her personally.

Also, with her unavailable to do her job perhaps some of the other clerks will be compelled to do the paperwork.

I spent about 20 minutes yesterday trying to track down if wage garnishing is also among the tools at the judge's disposal, and was unable to convince myself I'd found the right answer.  Anyone know?  I would have preferred that (both from the don't-let-her-become-a-martyr perspective, and also from a fiduciary one.   The KY taxpayers don't deserve the costs she's imposing on them.)

 

 

Just saw this:

"The judge also told all five of the clerk's deputies, including her son, Nathan Davis, that they are free to issue licenses to all applicants while Davis is held in contempt, but would also face fines or jail if they refuse to comply. He told them to meet with lawyers briefly and consider their fates before returning to his courtroom later Thursday to reveal their decisions."

From the perspective of let's-make-sure-the-licenses-actually-are-issued, starting today, this is probably the best outcome... and perhaps that's where the judge was coming from.

 

 

Sigh.

[MomatHWTK]

Unless I am mistaken, the jail time is not for failure to do the job per se, but for failure to obey a court order.  There are remedies and proceedures in place for the root problem, beginning with the request for a temporary injunction* filed in federal, followed by the trial to determine if a permanent injunction can be issued. The federal action would run in parallel or in lieu to any procedure for removal of an elected official as governed by the state.  The court appearance today dealt only with the failure to comply with an order of the court.  It did not address the merits of the case, but instead focussed solely on whether the clerk willfully disobeyed the initial court order- the temporary injunction.  More familiar examples of this type of action would be when a journalist is jailed for failure to reveal or source, or an attorney is fined for failing to produced required evidence. 

 

  Basically this hearing is one tiny off-shoot of the main case. Strategically, the penalty of incarceration makes other remedies available in the main case.  A case like this involving federal and state law, "new" issues, competing civil rights and interest-funded attorneys is going to a long and quite possibly precedent setting one. 

 

 

* Injunctions are often used to stop an action, but the term is also used when seeking to compel an action as in this case.

 

ETA: To answer the alternative compliance question (after just a cursory look at the information)- The issuance of licenses is actually a state obligation, assigned the the clerk by the state.  So, the attorneys for the defendent have argued that the governor can issue an executive order permitting the licenses to be issued without this particular clerk's signature and thus issuances could go forward and she would not have to violate her religious beliefs.  Without posing an opinion as to the "rightfulness" of such an action, I do not know why this was not adopted as a solution.  On the surface, it seems like it would have provided at least temporary relief but I am sure there is much more involved legally and tactically.  I can't even begin to explain (or probably understand) the multiple levels of machinations involved in this case.  Very powerful groups are invested in the matter, some looking for short term results other long term and I personally doubt if the initial defendent is getting any advice that benefits her personally at this point. 

[Kerileanne99]

So I absolutely know it wouldn't fly and all legally...

 

But I can't help but think she should be sentenced to community service hours working with LGBT organizations as well as general human rights groups. MAYBE she could learn something.

 

Of course that also wouldn't be fair to the organizations:(.

The vast majority of people she is turning away don't want to be poster children or trail blazers...they just want their d$&@ marriage license to marry the person they love!

 

There just isn't a great solution here except her doing her job. I hate that she is being made out to be a martyr, but it is true that fines wouldn't phase her personally.

[mamiof5]

Well, white women are so precious and must be protected like the delicate flowers that they are. Duh.

I wonder if this is always the case?? I met a very nice, charming black man once, we went out for coffee... never saw him again. He told me he couldn't go out with me because all his friends and relatives were black. I know that very often racism is seen as white people feeling they are better, or whatever it is they think...but it's not always the norm. Racism can go both ways

[maize]

I wonder if this is always the case?? I met a very nice, charming black man once, we went out for coffee... never saw him again. He told me he couldn't go out with me because all his friends and relatives were black. I know that very often racism is seen as white people feeling they are better, or whatever it is they think...but it's not always the norm. Racism can go both ways

 

I wonder if we need different words?

 

The form of racism that is common among members of the more privileged group is different from the form of racism that exists among the less privileged group. 

 

I doubt his hesitancy to date you was because he considered you to be "lesser" in some way. Definitely there is a strong human tendency to distrust and be uncomfortable with anyone who is unlike us or part of a different group.

[LucyStoner]

So I absolutely know it wouldn't fly and all legally...

 

But I can't help but think she should be sentenced to community service hours working with LGBT organizations as well as general human rights groups. MAYBE she could learn something.

 

Of course that also wouldn't be fair to the organizations:(.

The vast majority of people she is turning away don't want to be poster children or trail blazers...they just want their d$&@ marriage license to marry the person they love!

 

There just isn't a great solution here except her doing her job. I hate that she is being made out to be a martyr, but it is true that fines wouldn't phase her personally.

One of the couples she denied has already been together for 21 years. It's ridiculous that a lifetime committed couple can't be married while in those same decades she's been married 4 times.

[LucyStoner]

Aww, that's a shame. Now she really will be a Martyr.

 

 

 

I spent about 20 minutes yesterday trying to track down if wage garnishing is also among the tools at the judge's disposal, and was unable to convince myself I'd found the right answer. Anyone know? I would have preferred that (both from the don't-let-her-become-a-martyr perspective, and also from a fiduciary one. The KY taxpayers don't deserve the costs she's imposing on them.)

 

 

From the perspective of let's-make-sure-the-licenses-actually-are-issued, starting today, this is probably the best outcome... and perhaps that's where the judge was coming from.

 

 

Sigh.

Wage garnishment is the same as fines- the money will be made up to her (and then some) by donors.

[mamiof5]

I wonder if we need different words?

 

The form of racism that is common among members of the more privileged group is different from the form of racism that exists among the less privileged group.

 

I doubt his hesitancy to date you was because he considered you to be "lesser" in some way. Definitely there is a strong human tendency to distrust and be uncomfortable with anyone who is unlike us or part of a different group.

Hmmm...not sure?? He was kind of clear about it, he didn't go around the bush. Very smart guy (some computer degree, well paying job- he said it), seemed to be wealthy...he was very nice, but clearly told me I just didn't fit in his "circle" of family and friends, and that he would be looked down on for even hanging out with a white girl. Again, I know this is not the norm...but it did surprise me

ETA: I should say he seemed to be nice, and was definitely polite and well spoken. Didn't get to know him enough to know if he was nice or not?

[Pam in CT]

Wage garnishment is the same as fines- the money will be made up to her (and then some) by donors.

Except that with garnishment, the money goes to KY's coffers, not hers.  And that her $80,000 tax-funded salary isn't being paid out to her even as she's dragging KY through this circus.

 

But, I expect that if it had been an option, it would have been utilized.

[justasque]

Just saw this:

"The judge also told all five of the clerk's deputies, including her son, Nathan Davis, that they are free to issue licenses to all applicants while Davis is held in contempt, but would also face fines or jail if they refuse to comply. He told them to meet with lawyers briefly and consider their fates before returning to his courtroom later Thursday to reveal their decisions."

 

It will be interesting to see how these five people decide to proceed.  I hope they have good legal advice, independent of hers.  

 

I can't read the whole thread, but has it been mentioned that Rand Paul is also on her side?  He thinks there should have been another way to get it done, without forcing her to sign her approval of something she doesn't believe in.

 

She has five six clerks.  She could have had one of them do it whenever necessary, and quietly avoided all this fuss.  (Assuming, of course, that one of the five would be willing to do so.)

[LucyStoner]

Except that with garnishment, the money goes to KY's coffers, not hers. And that her $80,000 tax-funded salary isn't being paid out to her even as she's dragging KY through this circus.

 

But, I expect that if it had been an option, it would have been utilized.

Fines and garnished wages go to the state, wouldn't they? She would be able to collect at least her salary, if not much more back from donors. She would feel zero financial pain over this.

 

I'm rather surprised there's not already a gofundme blowing up for her.

[justasque]

Update:

Five of the six deputy clerks (all but her son) are willing to issue licenses.  If Mrs. Davis is willing to let them do so, she can avoid jail.

[maize]

Hmmm...not sure?? He was kind of clear about it, he didn't go around the bush. Very smart guy (some computer degree, well paying job- he said it), seemed to be wealthy...he was very nice, but clearly told me I just didn't fit in his "circle" of family and friends, and that he would be looked down on for even hanging out with a white girl. Again, I know this is not the norm...but it did surprise me

ETA: I should say he seemed to be nice, and was definitely polite and well spoken. Didn't get to know him enough to know if he was nice or not?

 

Sounds like typical in-group bias; this is I believe a pretty universal human characteristic, and is definitely an element of racism.

 

The problem with equating such reverse racism (where the underprivileged group rejects the privileged group) with racism exercised by the dominant group is that it lacks the power differential inherent in the latter. 

[Lady Florida.]

.  

 

 

She has five clerks.  She could have had one of them do it whenever necessary, and quietly avoided all this fuss.  (Assuming, of course, that one of the five would be willing to do so.)

 

I think I read somewhere that because of her position even when someone else issues the licenses, her name is on it. Like "The Office of the Whatever, Her Name". She was unwilling to let her name on the licenses even appear in that capacity. 

 

I'm not sorry she's going to jail. The judge is right. Fines would mean nothing to her. She's either going to have to agree to the licenses or resign from her position in order to get out of jail now.

[LucyStoner]

Update:

 

Five of the six deputy clerks (all but her son) are willing to issue licenses. If Mrs. Davis is willing to let them do so, she can avoid jail.

I'm still rather befuddled that they need her permission to do their jobs.

 

And why exactly does the clerk of a town with 21,000 residents need FIVE deputy clerks? What on earth do they do all day?

 

Edited- that five should apparently be a six. That's a lot of clerks!

[mommaduck]

I'm still rather befuddled that they need her permission to do their jobs.

 

And why exactly does the clerk of a town with 21,000 residents need FIVE deputy clerks? What on earth do they do all day?

 

One to restock the fridge, one to run her errands, one to rubber stamp everything, one to answer counter questions, and one so he can say he has a job (that mommy gave him).

[Pam in CT]

Fines and garnished wages go to the state, wouldn't they? She would be able to collect at least her salary, if not much more back from donors. She would feel zero financial pain over this.

 

I'm rather surprised there's not already a gofundme blowing up for her.

Yes, of course the fines go to the state too (if they're actually paid rather than held up in yet more legal machinations appealing the fine).  

 

The attraction of garnishment, beyond the greater efficiency/certainty of collection, the  is that with it, she would feel zero financial benefit from this $80,000 job that she isn't fulfilling.  It does seem galling that she's still collecting a salary.

 

 

 

Evidently within KY there's a good deal of public sympathy behind her -- that at least seems to be the gist of the articles suggesting that even when the legislature does return, the odds of her impeachment are practically nil.  But perhaps a $$$$$$ ticker of just how much taxpayer funds are being expended on the circus might make a difference. (?)

 

 

Totally agree re: GoFundMe.  I expected one to arise days ago, but haven't seen it yet.

[melmichigan]

nm

[melmichigan]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/09/03/rowan-county-ky-court-clerk-marriage-licenses-gays/71635794/

 

They will begin issuing licenses tomorrow.

[Word Nerd]

There are apparently six deputies; her son is the only holdout.

[melmichigan]

Kim Davis is said to be refusing to reappear in court. 

 

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2015/09/02/kentucky-clerk-kim-davis-contempt-gay-marriage/71573666/

 

ETA:  She's to stay jailed at least a week. 

[Meriwether]

I didn't read this thread and don't know any details, but she needs to issue marriage licenses if that is her job. Or face the consequences. Civil disobedience is fine, but there are usually consequences.

 

[poppy]

Kim Davis is said to be refusing to reappear in court. 

 

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2015/09/02/kentucky-clerk-kim-davis-contempt-gay-marriage/71573666/

 

ETA:  She's to stay jailed at least a week. 

 

I think she is getting exceptionally bad legal advice.  I feel a little sorry for her.

[Haiku]

I feel a little sorry for her.

 

I don't. She created this problem with her own bigotry.

[Guest]

Kim Davis is said to be refusing to reappear in court.

 

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2015/09/02/kentucky-clerk-kim-davis-contempt-gay-marriage/71573666/

 

ETA: She's to stay jailed at least a week.

So she isn't allowing anyone in her office to issue them?? Really, what is her end game?? This will go absolutely nowhere.

[Word Nerd]

I think she is getting exceptionally bad legal advice.  I feel a little sorry for her.

 

I think you're underestimating her understanding. She knows what she's doing.

[mommaduck]

So she isn't allowing anyone in her office to issue them?? Really, what is her end game?? This will go absolutely nowhere.

 

She's going to stall it as long as possible. She's grandstanding her point.

[LucyStoner]

Imagine how outraged Kim Davis' supporters would be if a Muslim court clerk was using his or her religion to parse out who should get marriage licenses. They wouldn't be calling it a trampling of religious freedom if such a clerk was ordered to do their job.

[mathnerd]

I didn't read this thread and don't know any details, but she needs to issue marriage licenses if that is her job. Or face the consequences. Civil disobedience is fine, but there are usually consequences.

 

 

I agree. I would love to have a well paid government job, with great perks and employ all my relatives in the same department and then refuse to do my job because the duties of the job went against my ethics or religion or morals or whatever. That would be a great way to spend my day (i am kidding).

[December]

It really bothers me that she's been jailed.  One of the main reasons I supported gay marriage being legal is that I figured, what does it hurt anyone?  How does it affect anyone else if gay people can get married?  I never imagined that one of the consequences would be people being forced to choose between quitting their job,  violating their religious beliefs, or going to JAIL!! It would be different if she chose this line of work after gay marriage became legal.  I don't know what the answer is though.  :sad:

[Haiku]

The answer is that she does her job. She works for the government. She can't defy the laws just because she doesn't like them. She is hurting herself. This is NOT the fault of marriage equality. It's not even about marriage equality. It's about whether a civil servant can refuse to do her job. It doesn't matter what issue it hinges on, although I'm sure there will be plenty who yell that this is evidence of "the gays" destroying society when a decent Christian woman goes to jail.

[Joanne]

It really bothers me that she's been jailed.  One of the main reasons I supported gay marriage being legal is that I figured, what does it hurt anyone?  How does it affect anyone else if gay people can get married?  I never imagined that one of the consequences would be people being forced to choose between quitting their job,  violating their religious beliefs, or going to JAIL!! It would be different if she chose this line of work after gay marriage became legal.  I don't know what the answer is though.  :sad:

 

She's not getting gay married. She would not be violating her religious beliefs. She gave licenses to sinners each business day before she chose to take a stand.

The answer is to do her job. And not be a hypocrite on several levels. THAT is the answer.

[mathnerd]

 I never imagined that one of the consequences would be people being forced to choose between quitting their job,  violating their religious beliefs, or going to JAIL!! It would be different if she chose this line of work after gay marriage became legal. 

A government official getting taxpayer money as salary needs to follow the law and do their job. Personal religious beliefs don't work in that setting. She takes a salary and refuses to obey a judge or do her job. People have been known to have landed in jail for contempt of court for simply talking out of turn in a court room, so this requires big punishment. Imagine if all cops refused to write speeding tickets or arrest criminals because doing so violated their religious beliefs, would that be acceptable?

[LucyStoner]

It really bothers me that she's been jailed. One of the main reasons I supported gay marriage being legal is that I figured, what does it hurt anyone? How does it affect anyone else if gay people can get married? I never imagined that one of the consequences would be people being forced to choose between quitting their job, violating their religious beliefs, or going to JAIL!! It would be different if she chose this line of work after gay marriage became legal. I don't know what the answer is though. :sad:

Interracial marriage violates some people's religious beliefs.

 

Interfaith marriage violates some people's religious beliefs.

 

Her job doesn't require her to violate her faith in anyway. She doesn't have to get gay married herself. She doesn't have to officiate the wedding. She doesn't have to attend the wedding. She doesn't even need to say "congratulations and best wishes" to the brides or the grooms. She only has to file some paperwork for any eligible couple who comes before her and pays the fee.

 

Her job requires her to follow the law.

[mommaduck]

It really bothers me that she's been jailed.  One of the main reasons I supported gay marriage being legal is that I figured, what does it hurt anyone?  How does it affect anyone else if gay people can get married?  I never imagined that one of the consequences would be people being forced to choose between quitting their job,  violating their religious beliefs, or going to JAIL!! It would be different if she chose this line of work after gay marriage became legal.  I don't know what the answer is though.  :sad:

 

I guarantee you that she gives licenses for businesses that sell things that are against her faith. 

[Pawz4me]

Divorce violates some people's religious beliefs.

 

Women driving violates some people's religious beliefs.

 

Blood transfusions violate some people's religious beliefs.

 

Using some forms of birth control violate some people's beliefs.

 

We could go on and on.  Allowing religious beliefs to affect how someone performs their job would surely lead us to chaos.

[mom31257]

I feel that if she had resigned from her job she would have been respected and have a better witness to the people she believes are living in sin. I believe it is sin, but if it had been my job, I would have done it. I would not think doing my job is a condoning of the lifestyle.  It would just be doing my job. 

 

 

 

 

[AvasMom]

I need to get caught up on this thread but I have to get this off my chest. I was raised in the UPCI (her denomination) and, thanks be to God, converted to Catholicism recently. She is NOT the face of conservative Christianity. I think if people knew exactly what she believed and stood for they may hesitant a little on making her a martyr for Christianity. This woman believes that the Blessed Trinity is paganism and a heresy, that you must be baptized with the "in Jesus' name" formula and speak in tongues or you are going to hell (along with all Christians who believe in the Trinity), that if a woman so much as TRIMS her hair her guardian angel leaves and her husband is likely to commit adultery, that women who wear make-up are akin to Jezebel and are liars, that women who wear pants are an abomination to God...need I go on?

[Audrey]

Agreed. This just feeds the "persecuted" complex. Remove her and stop her pay. Simple. 

 

 

Fire her.  That would be the fair precendent to set -- that you cannot use religious beliefs as an excuse not to do your proscribed job duties.  Jail just fuels the drama of "persecution." 

 

ETA:  I think it is ridiculous that people like sheriffs and county clerks are elected.  They are jobs that require skill and experience, and should be entirely non-political. 

 

[historically accurate]

I need to get caught up on this thread but I have to get this off my chest. I was raised in the UPCI (her denomination) and, thanks be to God, converted to Catholicism recently. She is NOT the face of conservative Christianity. I think if people knew exactly what she believed and stood for they may hesitant a little on making her a martyr for Christianity. This woman believes that the Blessed Trinity is paganism and a heresy, that you must be baptized with the "in Jesus' name" formula and speak in tongues or you are going to hell (along with all Christians who believe in the Trinity), that if a woman so much as TRIMS her hair her guardian angel leaves and her husband is likely to commit adultery, that women who wear make-up are akin to Jezebel and are liars, that women who wear pants are an abomination to God...need I go on?

 

So if all of these things are an abomination to God, why did she choose same sex marriage to make her stand? Surely she has issued marriage license for short-haired, jeans-wearing, and/or made-up women before. What is the difference with this "abomination"?

[Corraleno]

It really bothers me that she's been jailed.  One of the main reasons I supported gay marriage being legal is that I figured, what does it hurt anyone?  How does it affect anyone else if gay people can get married?  I never imagined that one of the consequences would be people being forced to choose between quitting their job,  violating their religious beliefs, or going to JAIL!! It would be different if she chose this line of work after gay marriage became legal.  I don't know what the answer is though.  :sad:

 

But she's not just refusing to issue the licenses herself, she is forbidding any of the other clerks, who are willing to issue them, from doing so. She was given the option of avoiding jail by letting the other clerks do the jobs they are paid to do, and she refused. She is not only imposing her personal religious beliefs on those who are seeking licenses, she is imposing them on other employees who do not share her stand on the issue.

 

[Supertechmom]

we simply can not allow anyone representing the government to impose their personal beliefs.  We have too many religions in this country and too many that  are in direct conflict with each other.  I do not want to live in a country where any time I travel I will drive through or visit an area with laws that are upheld based on who's religion is in office.  The laws are there to be carried out without bias.   Don't like the laws, don't take the job.  Lobby to change them. Work the system we have created. But do not decide I will not based on my religion do the job I was elected to do.   

[December]

I read through the entire Hobby Lobby decision when it came out and one thing I remember is that no one else can define a sincerely held religious belief for someone else.  They used the example of a Jehovah's Witness that had worked in a factory making sheet metal, then the factory switched over to making weapons.  The JW said that it was against his religious beliefs.  They tried to argue that the JW was behaving hypocritically to make metal that went on to be turned into weapons, but claim it violated his religious beliefs to make the weapons himself.  However, the Supreme Court ruled that it didn't matter if one's beliefs were inconsistent or hypocritical.  All that mattered was that they were sincerely held, which as best as I could figure out, was just taken on faith.  I actually don't agree with the Hobby Lobby decision, but I am confused because it seems like the KY clerk being jailed should conflict with the HL ruling.  Why do employers get to not follow the law by not providing health insurance that meets legal qualifications because it violates their religious beliefs, but the clerk doesn't get the same right?  

[December]

I need to get caught up on this thread but I have to get this off my chest. I was raised in the UPCI (her denomination) and, thanks be to God, converted to Catholicism recently. She is NOT the face of conservative Christianity. I think if people knew exactly what she believed and stood for they may hesitant a little on making her a martyr for Christianity. This woman believes that the Blessed Trinity is paganism and a heresy, that you must be baptized with the "in Jesus' name" formula and speak in tongues or you are going to hell (along with all Christians who believe in the Trinity), that if a woman so much as TRIMS her hair her guardian angel leaves and her husband is likely to commit adultery, that women who wear make-up are akin to Jezebel and are liars, that women who wear pants are an abomination to God...need I go on?

 

Hi AvasMom, I was actually raised in this same religion too.