A Question for Those Who've Taught Children (not your own) that Are Homeschooled...

[Chelli]

Have you found that there is a large segment (say 50%) of homeschool children who are not solid in their basics and unprepared to do higher level math, writing, and reading?

 

The background for my question:

 

I signed Grace up this year for two classes at a homeschool university model school in Houston. When I signed her up there was an entire page on the enrollment form asking for details about what Grace had studied/completed so far in our homeschool. This didn't bother me, but I found it kind of interesting so when I met the lady to turn in the registration, I asked her about it. She said that when she started working there 14 years ago that they would automatically enroll kids in whatever class their parents said they needed to be enrolled in.

 

Apparently this came back to bite them because children were being enrolled in Algebra classes on a regular basis who couldn't do basic operations (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division). She said that this happened with about 50% of the students (and still does) in all of the core subjects. Kids who wanted to take a writing class, but couldn't discuss the grammar needed to create stronger sentences or how to construct paragraphs. Kids who took a literature class, but read far below their grade level and couldn't participate.

 

The woman went on to say that she is giving a talk this weekend to people beginning to homeschool or interested in homeschooling and the focus of her talk is to focus on the basics due to watching half of the children try to enter the school's high school program totally unprepared.

 

I'm just curious if this is a common occurrence among those of you who've taught homeschool children in settings similar to this one (co-ops, schools, etc.) or if this is because Texas is such an unregulated homeschool state making this an anomaly in homeschool circles.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

 

The woman went on to say that she is giving a talk this weekend to people beginning to homeschool or interested in homeschooling and the focus of her talk is to focus on the basics due to watching hundreds of children try to enter the school's high school program totally unprepared.

 

 

 

To answer the question, yes, the majority of homeschooling families I know locally are not teaching their children through the 8th grade level. I prefer to look at the other half of families because their kids are as well-educated as my own.

 

FWIW, that's about the score for public schoolers in my town, too, but just like the homeschoolers they are given a diploma anyway.

 

But about this quoted part -- really? She claims to have encountered literally hundreds of unprepared homeschoolers trying to succeed in public high school?

[NorthwestMom]

Yes, a large segment, although 50% might be high. I saw it with math. math. I was a teacher assistant in a homeschool algebra class last year. My job was to make sure the kids had completed their week's worth of homework - the parents were required to grade it and give feedback to their child. I was just checking to see if it was done. MOST of the parents did not check their child's work for accuracy or completion. They appeared to just let the kids try to do it on their own. Most of the kids did not do all the work assigned. They struggled. It was too much responsibility for some younger teens to handle without structure and accountability.

 

There is resistance to memorization of facts, but then the kids can't process quickly enough to solve more complicated, higher level problems. Many parents are math-phobic themselves and rely on the kids to self-teach, and then they don't really know how competent the kids are. Add to that one common homeschool philosophy that, "If they need it, they'll be motivated to learn it then", so when the kids NEED to learn algebra, suddenly they are supposed to be motivated to go back and learn how to deal with fractions, decimals, exponents, etc. It sets them up for failure.

[Farrar]

I've taught kids in co-op type settings and I've worked at a school where we had some formerly homeschool kids enroll over the years.

 

I think it's just super uneven. Yes, my experience is that a lot of homeschooled kids can't spell or do basic math operations. But also I've met a lot of homeschooled kids that have gorgeous penmanship, perfect spelling, and are like little calculators. Also, I've seen that a lot of homeschool kids are just way more uneven than schooled kids. They may be walking encyclopedias with better practical skills than many adults but be way behind in writing and math. Or, they may be extremely well read, writing their third novels, drawing published illustration worthy art yet not be able to add. I think a lot of parents take a very long view of their kids' educations in homeschooling and think they'll catch up. And I think a lot of them do. I remember teaching a sweet 6th grader years ago who had always been homeschooled who had these huge gaps in her knowledge for writing and had very little solid math skills. She picked it all up just fine and was very successful in high school and college.

 

Not being honest (probably with themselves as well) about their kids' real placement is a problem though.

 

I suspect there will be a lot of... sad stories of educational neglect offered up in this thread. And a lot of blame tossed around.

[Chelli]

To answer the question, yes, the majority of homeschooling families I know locally are not teaching their children through the 8th grade level. I prefer to look at the other half of families because their kids are as well-educated as my own.

 

FWIW, that's about the score for public schoolers in my town, too, but just like the homeschoolers they are given a diploma anyway.

 

But about this quoted part -- really? She claims to have encountered literally hundreds of unprepared homeschoolers trying to succeed in public high school?

 

My mistake....I worded that sentence incorrectly. She has taught hundreds of homeschool kids through this school, but about half of them (which I guess would still make it in the hundreds depending on how many total kids she's taught) are unprepared for high school work. I'll fix that in the OP.

 

And, yes, I agree with you about focusing on those that are succeeding. I just found it shocking that half are not. I guess my bubble is about to popped about the homeschool community outside of my friends in my town who homeschool like I do.

[Seasider]

Sadly, yes, I've seen this. As far as co-ops go, though, an equally challenging problem is that so many of the students aren't completing assignments. The instructors can incentivize, penalize, fail to pass the student, but if the parents aren't on the same page, there's no weight to whatever the leverage may be. It's sad when engaged students are stalled out by a number of classmates who don't even do the basics to participate.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

oops -- I tried to edit and ended up with a double post. See below.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Chelli]

 

I suspect there will be a lot of... sad stories of educational neglect offered up in this thread. And a lot of blame tossed around.

 

I hope the above doesn't happen. I really was generally just curious if this seemed to be the norm.

 

I've already dealt with educational neglect this year already with an acquaintance. I don't want to hash through that again.

[freesia]

I have not found this to be true where I am. I live in a high regulation state in a metro area full of super over achievers and the homeschool community mirrors that.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I've taught kids in co-op type settings and I've worked at a school where we had some formerly homeschool kids enroll over the years.

 

I think it's just super uneven. Yes, my experience is that a lot of homeschooled kids can't spell or do basic math operations. But also I've met a lot of homeschooled kids that have gorgeous penmanship, perfect spelling, and are like little calculators. Also, I've seen that a lot of homeschool kids are just way more uneven than schooled kids. They may be walking encyclopedias with better practical skills than many adults but be way behind in writing and math. Or, they may be extremely well read, writing their third novels, drawing published illustration worthy art yet not be able to add. I think a lot of parents take a very long view of their kids' educations in homeschooling and think they'll catch up. And I think a lot of them do. I remember teaching a sweet 6th grader years ago who had always been homeschooled who had these huge gaps in her knowledge for writing and had very little solid math skills. She picked it all up just fine and was very successful in high school and college.

 

Not being honest (probably with themselves as well) about their kids' real placement is a problem though.

 

I suspect there will be a lot of... sad stories of educational neglect offered up in this thread. And a lot of blame tossed around.

 

Very good points.

 

In my case, my experience with unprepared homeschoolers came first. Then I got more involved with public schooled kids and found that they were not better off...

 

so then I started following education reform issues and learned that the way we're judging the kids isn't even fair. It's too narrow. They are seen as 'failing' or 'bad at math' because of where the bar is set, or even more because of rigidity of testing environments...

 

in the past, we'd have had space and a place for artists, artisans, athletes, and more because society freely acknowledged needing their talents and skills. Now it's NCLB skills or you're nothing...through all the incarnations of that thinking, nobody has ever been able to make more than a quarter of the kids ready to be engineers and doctors. Not because schools fail but because a limited number of people will have those interests and aptitude.

 

Anyway. I have a point in here somewhere...

 

When I realize that nearly half of the children aren't ready for algebra and beyond, no matter how they're schooled, I start to appreciate hs'ing even more because those were not calculus-bound are still left with room and encouragement to develop their real talents and the skills and knowledge that they desire for themselves. Ideally.

 

The public schooled kids I know who are failing academically lack the self-confidence and joy that comes from having half the day to do what they love anyway.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Dmmetler]

Yes, if you count "unprepared" being "behind in one area, but OK in others". I know a lot of homeschoolers who are weak writers, but obviously read and comprehend way above grade level when you talk to them. Or who are great at math and science, but have never read literature at all. And, for the most part, these kids leave high school, go to college or into a career, and spend their lives doing what they love.

 

No, if you mean "truly not at a high school level at all"-the only kids I know od who fall into that category tend to be those who wouldn't be on grade level in a traditional high school, either due to various learning and developmental issues. And if anything, these kids are better off at home where they aren't constantly failing and have a chance to develop non-academic skills.

[AK_Mom4]

My experience - and it's just mine - is that the homeschool population has about the same "at grade level" percentage as the public school population. Smaller groups above or below norm with the majority cruising along at grade level (bu not advanced).

 

But my experience in Homeschool CLASSES has been different. There have been consistently percentages of below-level students in DD's classes. I have had the opinion that homeschoolers here are more likely to outsource when their students are struggling, especially in math. It seems like the parents hope that a different teacher will be able to get the concepts across to the kid when what is at home is failing.

 

I can believe that some classes, especially High school Math and writing would be thing kids struggle with and that parents might be more likely to outsource in hopes of improvement.

[Chelli]

Yes, if you count "unprepared" being "behind in one area, but OK in others". I know a lot of homeschoolers who are weak writers, but obviously read and comprehend way above grade level when you talk to them. Or who are great at math and science, but have never read literature at all. And, for the most part, these kids leave high school, go to college or into a career, and spend their lives doing what they love.

 

No, if you mean "truly not at a high school level at all"-the only kids I know od who fall into that category tend to be those who wouldn't be on grade level in a traditional high school, either due to various learning and developmental issues. And if anything, these kids are better off at home where they aren't constantly failing and have a chance to develop non-academic skills.

 

You and Farrar bring up good points. Children are usually bent in one direction or another as far as strengths go.

 

This is an a la carte program where parents can choose what classes they want their child to take so it's entirely possible that parents are putting their children in multiple classes but they are only struggling in one. I didn't ask her that. She did make it sound as if it were an across the board thing of being behind in all the core subjects, but I didn't ask for clarification.

[Artichoke]

.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Artichoke

[Carrie12345]

50% may be high for here, but there are many above and below grade level, including my own kids in various combinations for various subjects. But I do my best to choose outside classes accordingly.

[MysteryJen]

When my kids were younger, I had this imaginary student that set the bar. The smartest, hardest working kid in the perfect school and I nearly died trying to keep my kids on pace with that person. Before personalities and LDs knocked some sense into me,

But as my kids have mostly non-homeschooled friends now, I have a better sense of what is out there and it really is a have/have not situation. About half are totally fine, will be fine in college, have had competent teachers and good schools. The rest have not. They are in poor schools with barely adequate resources and they will be taking remedial classes in whatever college they go to.

 

If that is the case with public school students, why should we think that homeschoolers (in the aggregate) would be different?

[Farrar]

Very good points.

 

In my case, my experience with unprepared homeschoolers came first. Then I got more involved with public schooled kids and found that they were not better off...

 

so then I started following education reform issues and learned that the way we're judging the kids isn't even fair. It's too narrow. They are seen as 'failing' or 'bad at math' because of where the bar is set, or even more because of rigidity of testing environments...

 

in the past, we'd have had space and a place for artists, artisans, athletes, and more because society freely acknowledged needing their talents and skills. Now it's NCLB skills or you're nothing...through all the incarnations of that thinking, nobody has ever been able to make more than a quarter of the kids ready to be engineers and doctors. Not because schools fail but because a limited number of people will have those interests and aptitude.

 

Anyway. I have a point in here somewhere...

 

When I realize that nearly half of the children aren't ready for algebra and beyond, no matter how they're homeschooled, I start to appreciate hs'ing even more because those were not calculus-bound are still left with room and encouragement to develop their real talents and the skills and knowledge that they desire for themselves. Ideally.

 

The public schooled kids I know who are failing academically lack the self-confidence and joy that comes from having half the day to do what they love anyway.

 

Yes, yes, yes.

 

It's hard for me to say that homeschoolers are or aren't "prepared for high school" - in part because it's so individual, but in part because I think there's such a different model of thinking about these things. Even homeschoolers who aren't unschool leaning tend to appreciate that their kids are where they are and help them develop their own individual gifts. There are so many homeschoolers who are spending way more time on music or programming or other skills which are skills they've chosen and parents that are okay with that. Many homeschoolers are thinking there's time to develop the other skills and bring them to fruition. For the most part, people I know - both those with traditional academic stars and those without - seem to be happy to stay unaware of whatever is being taught in schools because the education they're giving is so focused on being individual and progressive.

 

Basically, homeschoolers aren't usually trying to prepare for high school. They're trying to prepare for lifetime learning.

 

I think that can be a problem for some kids who get thrown into the system unprepared or who have learning issues or whose parents didn't teach something or provide other ways to access learning well enough for them to meet some goal they have later on. But I think I'd rather take that risk and be focused on my kids' joy and confidence in learning.

[Murphy101]

60% of the graduating students in my regions high schools need remedial maths and English in order to move on in trade schools or community college.

 

So I would not be surprised by that number for any demographic of education in my state.

[KungFuPanda]

Have you found that there is a large segment (say 50%) of homeschool children who are not solid in their basics and unprepared to do higher level math, writing, and reading?

 

The background for my question:

 

I signed Grace up this year for two classes at a homeschool university model school in Houston. When I signed her up there was an entire page on the enrollment form asking for details about what Grace had studied/completed so far in our homeschool. This didn't bother me, but I found it kind of interesting so when I met the lady to turn in the registration, I asked her about it. She said that when she started working there 14 years ago that they would automatically enroll kids in whatever class their parents said they needed to be enrolled in.

 

Apparently this came back to bite them because children were being enrolled in Algebra classes on a regular basis who couldn't do basic operations (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division). She said that this happened with about 50% of the students (and still does) in all of the core subjects. Kids who wanted to take a writing class, but couldn't discuss the grammar needed to create stronger sentences or how to construct paragraphs. Kids who took a literature class, but read far below their grade level and couldn't participate.

 

The woman went on to say that she is giving a talk this weekend to people beginning to homeschool or interested in homeschooling and the focus of her talk is to focus on the basics due to watching half of the children try to enter the school's high school program totally unprepared.

 

I'm just curious if this is a common occurrence among those of you who've taught homeschool children in settings similar to this one (co-ops, schools, etc.) or if this is because Texas is such an unregulated homeschool state making this an anomaly in homeschool circles.

I've seen some of this, but not to that extreme. However, I live in a state with some oversight.

[bolt.]

Have you found that there is a large segment (say 50%) of homeschool children who are not solid in their basics and unprepared to do higher level math, writing, and reading?

 

The background for my question:

 

I signed Grace up this year for two classes at a homeschool university model school in Houston. When I signed her up there was an entire page on the enrollment form asking for details about what Grace had studied/completed so far in our homeschool. This didn't bother me, but I found it kind of interesting so when I met the lady to turn in the registration, I asked her about it. She said that when she started working there 14 years ago that they would automatically enroll kids in whatever class their parents said they needed to be enrolled in.

 

Apparently this came back to bite them because children were being enrolled in Algebra classes on a regular basis who couldn't do basic operations (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division). She said that this happened with about 50% of the students (and still does) in all of the core subjects. Kids who wanted to take a writing class, but couldn't discuss the grammar needed to create stronger sentences or how to construct paragraphs. Kids who took a literature class, but read far below their grade level and couldn't participate.

 

The woman went on to say that she is giving a talk this weekend to people beginning to homeschool or interested in homeschooling and the focus of her talk is to focus on the basics due to watching half of the children try to enter the school's high school program totally unprepared.

 

I'm just curious if this is a common occurrence among those of you who've taught homeschool children in settings similar to this one (co-ops, schools, etc.) or if this is because Texas is such an unregulated homeschool state making this an anomaly in homeschool circles.

I've taught post-secondary post-homeschool young adults -- I'm a Bible college prof.

 

My answer is that the majority of them (aside from true difficulties such as dyslexia) are capable of the academic skills required by the environment -- involving basic academic research and writing.

 

They are sometimes noticably advanced in their ability to participate in classroom discussion and display early post-secondary levels of critical thinking.

 

However, a very common flaw I see from homeschooling backgrounds is lower than average ability to plan for a rigorous schedule and apply the co-ordinated self discipline required to complete multiple assignments (from more than one class) on time without making a crisis out of it. Of course, this can be hard for many just-out-of-high-school students, but I've observed it very frequently from homeschool backgrounds.

[G5052]

60% of the graduating students in my regions high schools need remedial maths and English in order to move on in trade schools or community college.

 

So I would not be surprised by that number for any demographic of education in my state.

 

Very similar here, and I see about the same among the homeschooled kids that I teach at the community college. Some of them have had very, very little accountability and challenge in their education.

 

Among the paid homeschool classes I teach, I actually moved away from high school because it was too frustrating for me. I know what colleges expect, but the parents wanted far, far less, so my hands were tied. I much prefer teaching younger children that way.

[Murphy101]

Very similar here, and I see about the same among the homeschooled kids that I teach at the community college. Some of them have had very, very little accountability and challenge in their education.

 

Among the paid homeschool classes I teach, I actually moved away from high school because it was too frustrating for me. I know what colleges expect, but the parents wanted far, far less, so my hands were tied. I much prefer teaching younger children that way.

Yes. And the frustrating thing is some of these kids are graduating with 4.0 GPAs and even some AP classes on the transcript. So they and their parents actually believe they are working above average and doing really well. Then they go to trade school or community college or even a 4 year school and get slammed with the reality of their defunct education. Which often results in them quitting and walking away from further education not only not more educated but a lot more in debt. It's crazy.

 

I think that's what bothers me most.

 

I get that some kids just aren't going to ever graduate high school having had calculus or ready to write the next great American novel and I'm okay with that.

 

But don't lie to them about what they are getting or act like they are just soooo smart and working sooo hard when in fact if they could manage mediocre it would be a vast improvement in achievement.

[City Mouse]

I teach at a school that enrolls a lot of former homeschoolers, and we do see this often. Although only one family I have worked with might fall in the realm of "educational neglect". Sometimes the sequence of math in a homeschool program does not line up exactly the same as what the school uses. Sometimes the parents think their child is on track because the workbook they are using is labeled x grade, or that the child sat through time 4 learning, so they must know what was taught. Sometimes the parents don't know what is expected at a certain age, so they think their kids are "on level" when they aren't.

On the other hand, there are just as many students coming from homeschooling that are "on level" or higher. Now that I think on it more, our former homeschooled kids tend to fall into either extreme rather than the middle - they are either advance or they are behind. So maybe 50/50 isn't far off actually.

[lmrich]

I would say it is closer to 30 percent. I think a lot of those kids would receive extra help in public school.  I think about 30 percent of the kids I know from public or private schools are also struggling. It is just sad for the kids who are struggling because their parents are not providing what is needed. (you have to do math)

[Chelli]

Thank you all for your responses! 

 

I'm kind of embarrassed about what I'm going to admit next.  :blushing:

 

I honestly never thought about the educational continuum being the same for homeschool children as public school children. What I mean by that is I assumed, incorrectly obviously by the responses in this thread, is that homeschool children (barring learning disabilities) would naturally be ahead or at least grade level with their peers due to the one on one nature of homeschool education. Of course it makes perfect sense that this would not be the case due to the factors listed in this thread, children who struggle with certain subjects while flourishing in the others (I have one of these myself!), parents who assume their child is learning via DVD, online, outsourced teaching but they are not, children working at their own pace versus an arbitrary standard of when they should be prepared to do XYZ at a certain age (I have one of these as well!), etc.

 

Thanks for your insightful answers to my question. And for not taking it down the educational neglect path.

[NorthwestMom]

I would say it is closer to 30 percent. I think a lot of those kids would receive extra help in public school.  I think about 30 percent of the kids I know from public or private schools are also struggling. It is just sad for the kids who are struggling because their parents are not providing what is needed. (you have to do math)

 

I think that sometimes homeschool kids suffer because we don't identify them as being behind or needing remediation as quickly as they would be in a school setting. I'm not talking about identifying disabilities, I mean the kids who can read-but too slowly; kids who completely did not understand the idea of place value but can still do one digit arithmetic; kids who only write one paragraph when the assignment was three. They are quietly falling behind but it may be imperceptible until the harder material comes around. We want to just support them and met them where they are - but then if they get on a different track, they are not ready.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that sometimes homeschool kids suffer because we don't identify them as being behind or needing remediation as quickly as they would be in a school setting. I'm not talking about identifying disabilities, I mean the kids who can read-but too slowly; kids who completely did not understand the idea of place value but can still do one digit arithmetic; kids who only write one paragraph when the assignment was three. They are quietly falling behind but it may be imperceptible until the harder material comes around. We want to just support them and met them where they are - but then if they get on a different track, they are not ready.

But this happens in public school too.  Back when I had my own tutoring business,  the bulk of my calls came when the kids were in 5th grade when the parents finally realized that the public school's promise that their kids will grow out of it and will catch up, was not happening  and that they'd better do something fast before middle school hit.  

[NorthwestMom]

But this happens in public school too.  Back when I had my own tutoring business,  the bulk of my calls came when the kids were in 5th grade when the parents finally realized that the public school's promise that their kids will grow out of it and will catch up, was not happening  and that they'd better do something fast before middle school hit.  

 

 I agree!

[Murphy101]

Nm

 

I could have just said, "I agree!" :)

[Ausmumof3]

A lot of homeschoolers access government open access for the last two years of high school here. The comment I hear from the mums is that the kids are perfectly capable of the level of work but struggle with the volume expected with a lot of it just busy work.

 

Generally the homeschoolers that seem behind to me are the ones with learning difficulties who would be behind anyway.

[Murphy101]

What I mean by that is I assumed, incorrectly obviously by the responses in this thread, is that homeschool children (barring learning disabilities) would naturally be ahead or at least grade level with their peers due to the one on one nature of homeschool education.

From another perspective, it's quite possible they are and still fit those numbers. Such as in the example of my region.

 

If 30-60% of home schoolers in my region were judging their children to be much further ahead academicly than their children actually were? Well sadly enough, that means they are right on target with their peers in the region because that's exactly what the situation is in our public schools.

[Liz CA]

I teach at a school that enrolls a lot of former homeschoolers, and we do see this often. Although only one family I have worked with might fall in the realm of "educational neglect". Sometimes the sequence of math in a homeschool program does not line up exactly the same as what the school uses. Sometimes the parents think their child is on track because the workbook they are using is labeled x grade, or that the child sat through time 4 learning, so they must know what was taught. Sometimes the parents don't know what is expected at a certain age, so they think their kids are "on level" when they aren't.

On the other hand, there are just as many students coming from homeschooling that are "on level" or higher. Now that I think on it more, our former homeschooled kids tend to fall into either extreme rather than the middle - they are either advance or they are behind. So maybe 50/50 isn't far off actually.

 

This is why I always had ds tested at the end of every school year. This reassured me that we were on track. He was always ahead in history - once by two or more grade levels, a little ahead in math but either right on target or slightly behind in spelling. Later on, the writing skills improved as did spelling and it evened out.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I teach co-op science and have enrolled my kids in Cottage Classes for LA/writing. I've seen a wide range of preparation and seriousness about academics. As others have said though, the same differences exist in public school.

[HomeAgain]

I have found that the range often correlates with the values of the support community. I have been in some groups where it's seen as unnecessary to go above or do a rigorous study (or even keep records).  Parents simply didn't do that.  My son had one friend whose day consisted of 3 worksheets and a reading book in 9th grade.  His mother looked appalled when I suggested he may need more than that to be considered a freshman.

We've also been in groups that are more academically oriented, where each family is striving to do their best and the idea of not doing so is worrisome. 

 

Each group guided members in their own direction.  Conversations were different, values were different..I don't think we always realize the effect our friends have on us.

[LisaKinVA]

I have mixed experience with that.  When we lived in one area (with a lot of ATI families), this was more true than either in Northern VA or here in Naples, Italy.  I know only one family that struggles with meeting grade-level with some of her children, BUT they have dx'd learning issues.  She spends a lot of time taking children to therapy.  Her NT children fare very well, and she is a very conscientious homeschooler.

 

I mostly teach speech and debate -- and while I have some that always do better than others, All of those I've coached in Northern VA and Italy would do fine in the public schools.  About 30% of those in my former state, which I coached, would probably struggle with high school material.  100% of those were ATI families (specifically girls, whose parents felt math wasn't an important subject for their daughters).  The best performing debaters I had (regardless of material), would have easily caught on and excelled in a public high school or college setting.

 

[EmilyGF]

You and Farrar bring up good points. Children are usually bent in one direction or another as far as strengths go.

 

This is an a la carte program where parents can choose what classes they want their child to take so it's entirely possible that parents are putting their children in multiple classes but they are only struggling in one. I didn't ask her that. She did make it sound as if it were an across the board thing of being behind in all the core subjects, but I didn't ask for clarification.

Maybe this is just me, but if I signed up a kid for outside classes, it would likely be in an area I didn't feel very competent in. Could this be a selection effect?

 

(Not signing my kids up for outside math or science very soon. Art? Writing? Maybe.)

 

I guess there might be others who sign up kids for what they are passionate for... so maybe no selection effect. Not sure.

 

Signed,

Emily, the Engineer

[G5052]

Yes. And the frustrating thing is some of these kids are graduating with 4.0 GPAs and even some AP classes on the transcript. So they and their parents actually believe they are working above average and doing really well. Then they go to trade school or community college or even a 4 year school and get slammed with the reality of their defunct education. Which often results in them quitting and walking away from further education not only not more educated but a lot more in debt. It's crazy.

 

I think that's what bothers me most.

 

I get that some kids just aren't going to ever graduate high school having had calculus or ready to write the next great American novel and I'm okay with that.

 

But don't lie to them about what they are getting or act like they are just soooo smart and working sooo hard when in fact if they could manage mediocre it would be a vast improvement in achievement.

 

Exactly. I'm not quite sure how parents quite get off this way either. Do we listen too much to our own press?

 

One year I lost most of my Latin 2 class because I was adamant that open book was not an appropriate way to take an exam in a foreign language.

 

Then the next year, I wrote the tests, but it was a take-home test to be taken on their terms, and someone else graded them and assigned the grades without letting me see because of all of the complaints the previous year. The parents were informed of this. I put up with that because I loved teaching Latin, and my youngest was in class with another teacher at the same time. I figured that I might as well get paid a little for being there.

 

At the end of the year a parent dressed me down because her kid barely placed into Latin 1 with Lukeion after having had Latin 1 and 2 with that group. Somehow she thought that Lukeion's Latin 3 was going to work after having curved, open-book tests.  

 

The same group was always all over me because my own children did beautifully on the National Latin Exam (we did a lot of studying at home).

 

That was the end of that for so many reasons.

 

Since then I've stuck to college and young kids. 

[EmilyGF]

Thank you all for your responses! 

 

I'm kind of embarrassed about what I'm going to admit next.  :blushing:

 

I honestly never thought about the educational continuum being the same for homeschool children as public school children. What I mean by that is I assumed, incorrectly obviously by the responses in this thread, is that homeschool children (barring learning disabilities) would naturally be ahead or at least grade level with their peers due to the one on one nature of homeschool education. Of course it makes perfect sense that this would not be the case due to the factors listed in this thread, children who struggle with certain subjects while flourishing in the others (I have one of these myself!), parents who assume their child is learning via DVD, online, outsourced teaching but they are not, children working at their own pace versus an arbitrary standard of when they should be prepared to do XYZ at a certain age (I have one of these as well!), etc.

 

Thanks for your insightful answers to my question. And for not taking it down the educational neglect path.

This is one reason I no longer subscribe to any homeschool magazines.

 

The magazines (IME) assure people that what they are doing is sufficient and even excellent compared to public schools no matter what they are doing. This attitude is sure to lead to many homeschoolers having a not just relaxed but lazy attitude towards education. When they actually meet up with real, not hypothetical, public schoolers, they will be surprised and it may be too late.

 

Emily

[mom2scouts]

I live in a University community and the homeschoolers I know personally are doing an excellent job of educating their children. Most are highly educated themselves and value education.  One family put their children into public high school after homeschooling and their dd graduated second in her class.  Another family put their always homeschooled daughter into public high school and she was immediately accepted into a very competitive academic program in the school. Most of the homeschooled students I know show much higher reading, vocabulary, and history knowledge than their peers. I am vaguely aware of homeschoolers who think anything they do is better than ps, but they are not in my circle of friends.

[Orthodox6]

 

 

 

I honestly never thought about the educational continuum being the same for homeschool children as public school children. What I mean by that is I assumed, incorrectly obviously by the responses in this thread, is that homeschool children (barring learning disabilities) would naturally be ahead or at least grade level with their peers due to the one on one nature of homeschool education. Of course it makes perfect sense that this would not be the case due to the factors listed in this thread, children who struggle with certain subjects while flourishing in the others (I have one of these myself!), parents who assume their child is learning via DVD, online, outsourced teaching but they are not, children working at their own pace versus an arbitrary standard of when they should be prepared to do XYZ at a certain age (I have one of these as well!), etc.

 

 

 

There also is the fact of homeschool-targeted curricula varying wildly in quality and difficulty, while bearing labels for "grade X".  Public school curricula also do this, but I would guess to a lesser degree because candidate curricula are run through a selection process with specific criteria to be met.  (This does not mean, of course, that the curricula chosen are guaranteed to be of good quality!)  

 

"One-on-one" encompasses its own variability.  This has been addressed above.  Some parents use "mastery learning" as a way of ensuring nothing but "A" grades for a child.  Other parents consider this detrimental (when overused) because a child never gets to learn how to deal fruitfully with an occasional failure. 

 

Grading scales vary, too.  I grew up with a simple system in the publics.  Honors classes (AP was coming into existence back then) assigned 90-100 for an "A", while regular classes remained with the long-established 93-100 scale for an "A".  Now I read of complicated weighting systems, with competitive-mad students vying for GPAs of well over 5.0!  As for AP classes, the competitive craziness now has led to "pre-AP" titled classes for middle-school students. 

[luuknam]

I have no clue what percentage of homeschooled students are high school level or not (I don't know any high school age homeschoolers).

 

I think parental education probably also matters. I'm assuming most of us remember more or less what we had to learn in high school (which is not the same as actually remembering the details, but I remember e.g. what kind of stuff I had to learn for math, writing, etc in order to get a passing grade - don't ask me what the derivative of ln(x) is (1/x?), but I know we had to be able to derive ln(x) and that it was certainly not open book). So, while people might partially base their image on what constitutes "high school level" on what their friends' kids are doing and what textbooks are labeled 9th grade etc, part of their mental image of what constitutes "high school level" is probably based on what they remember doing in high school themselves. So, the former kid whose most advanced math course in high school was Algebra I (and passed that but did not excel in it) is probably going to have a different mental image of what "high school level math" is than the kid who got a 5 on AP Calculus. Especially if all their friends both then and now came from similar backgrounds.

 

I had a classmate in community college Astronomy 101 (which counted toward the 8 hours science requirement) who was 50 or so and who had no clue what x squared was. Back when she was in high school (in TX) I think she said they didn't even require algebra(?). So, if her 9th grader knows what x squared is, she might feel her kid was doing great in math. Whereas I'd be concerned if my kid doesn't know what x squared is halfway through 7th grade, and would be expecting a 9th grader to be working on precalculus including trigonometry in 9th grade (because I was taught beginning calculus - limits, derivatives, integrals - in 10th grade and that was *normal* for the pre-university high school track where I grew up).

[luuknam]

Btw, I know that not all students do the pre-university track of high school, and that that's okay. My point was that I can't imagine graduating kids from high school who don't know what x squared is, whereas my former CC classmate probably knows that there are kids who graduate high school with a lot more math than she knows but might not be as worried about high school kids who don't know what x squared is (not that she was a homeschooler).

[catz]

I teach at a secular co-op.  I have not taught math there, though I do have a math degree.  Some of these kids are uneven in their skills, but are scrappy and motivated learners.  Our state requires kids to test annually and most kids I know test ahead of grade level actually.   So when presented with something in co-op they haven't really done (like writing a long research paper with citations), I see many of them work hard and catch up.  Our state has PSEO (post secondary enrollment options), which means we can take free college classes in high school with good test scores.  Most homeschooled high schoolers I know take advantage of this program and do very well with it.  So I'm not seeing it.  But I have to say, I'm entrenched in the secular homeschool community.  Many of these people tried school and found it wasn't a good fit for their GT/2E/quirky learners.  So I think I see a particular profile of student in my homeschooling world. 

 

I do know a couple that are behind, but they are clearly LD kind of kids that would struggle in a standard classroom environment. 

[Ellie]

Very good points.

 

In my case, my experience with unprepared homeschoolers came first. Then I got more involved with public schooled kids and found that they were not better off...

 

so then I started following education reform issues and learned that the way we're judging the kids isn't even fair. It's too narrow. They are seen as 'failing' or 'bad at math' because of where the bar is set, or even more because of rigidity of testing environments...

 

in the past, we'd have had space and a place for artists, artisans, athletes, and more because society freely acknowledged needing their talents and skills. Now it's NCLB skills or you're nothing...through all the incarnations of that thinking, nobody has ever been able to make more than a quarter of the kids ready to be engineers and doctors. Not because schools fail but because a limited number of people will have those interests and aptitude.

 

Anyway. I have a point in here somewhere...

 

When I realize that nearly half of the children aren't ready for algebra and beyond, no matter how they're homeschooled, I start to appreciate hs'ing even more because those were not calculus-bound are still left with room and encouragement to develop their real talents and the skills and knowledge that they desire for themselves. Ideally.

 

The public schooled kids I know who are failing academically lack the self-confidence and joy that comes from having half the day to do what they love anyway.

:001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub:

[ScoutTN]

I think that sometimes homeschool kids suffer because we don't identify them as being behind or needing remediation as quickly as they would be in a school setting. I'm not talking about identifying disabilities, I mean the kids who can read-but too slowly; kids who completely did not understand the idea of place value but can still do one digit arithmetic; kids who only write one paragraph when the assignment was three. They are quietly falling behind but it may be imperceptible until the harder material comes around. We want to just support them and met them where they are - but then if they get on a different track, they are not ready.

This happens even in expensive, competititve prep schools. I know because it happened to me.

It happens to kids whose parents are well educated and make education and intellectual development a priority. My mom is a teacher and she just didn't see it happening and when I brought it up, no one listened to me. They saw an A on a report card and blew it off. Huge mistake!

[Orthodox6]

[see interpolations, below]

 

 

I have no clue what percentage of homeschooled students are high school level or not (I don't know any high school age homeschoolers).

Three of mine completed homeschool high school prior to entering college.  I have one high school student remaining.

 

I think parental education probably also matters. I'm assuming most of us remember more or less what we had to learn in high school (which is not the same as actually remembering the details, but I remember e.g. what kind of stuff I had to learn for math, writing, etc in order to get a passing grade - don't ask me what the derivative of ln(x) is (1/x?), but I know we had to be able to derive ln(x) and that it was certainly not open book). So, while people might partially base their image on what constitutes "high school level" on what their friends' kids are doing and what textbooks are labeled 9th grade etc, part of their mental image of what constitutes "high school level" is probably based on what they remember doing in high school themselves. So, the former kid whose most advanced math course in high school was Algebra I (and passed that but did not excel in it) is probably going to have a different mental image of what "high school level math" is than the kid who got a 5 on AP Calculus. Especially if all their friends both then and now came from similar backgrounds.

Totally true for your bolded section.  (whole paragraph true, for that matter).  Luck of the draw had me living within the zone for a top-ranked public school with stellar-quality honors classes.  For definite, my memories governed how I selected homeschooling materials.

 

I had a classmate in community college Astronomy 101 (which counted toward the 8 hours science requirement) who was 50 or so and who had no clue what x squared was. Back when she was in high school (in TX) I think she said they didn't even require algebra(?). So, if her 9th grader knows what x squared is, she might feel her kid was doing great in math. Whereas I'd be concerned if my kid doesn't know what x squared is halfway through 7th grade, and would be expecting a 9th grader to be working on precalculus including trigonometry in 9th grade (because I was taught beginning calculus - limits, derivatives, integrals - in 10th grade and that was *normal* for the pre-university high school track where I grew up).

I sure wonder what isolated pocket of Texas your friend lived in, and in what years.  In my era (class of 1973), up through algebra I and geometry was required of everyone.  If a student was not desirous of, or was not suited to, honors classes, there were "regular" classes.  At my high school, algebra even had a mid-track class for students who fell in-between those other levels.  Something called "consumer math" was offered for post-geometry class if a non-college-bound student wanted "practical math".  The course was worthwhile for college-bound, too, although I don't remember students taking advantage of the opportunity because they already were taking pre-calculus and calculus.     

 

[luuknam]

I sure wonder what isolated pocket of Texas your friend lived in, and in what years.  In my era (class of 1973), up through algebra I and geometry was required of everyone.  If a student was not desirous of, or was not suited to, honors classes, there were "regular" classes.  At my high school, algebra even had a mid-track class for students who fell in-between those other levels.  Something called "consumer math" was offered for post-geometry class if a non-college-bound student wanted "practical math".  The course was worthwhile for college-bound, too, although I don't remember students taking advantage of the opportunity because they already were taking pre-calculus and calculus.  

 

Well, she was somewhere in her 50s I think, and this was several years ago, so she might have finished high school in the 1960s. I think she always lived in the Texoma area, though I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure she said she didn't have to take Algebra to graduate from high school, but again, it was years ago and she was just a classmate for one class and not a friend. I did manage to teach her the meaning of x squared pretty quickly though by giving examples (she did know basic multiplication).

 

Anyway, it was just meant as an example. And based on what I've read elsewhere I'm afraid we could probably find examples of kids getting high school diplomas today without knowing what x squared is if we tried...

[luuknam]

This is not TX (but rather, NC), but I couldn't find historical graduation requirements for TX:

 

http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/accountability/policyoperations/transition/historygradreq.pdf

 

Once upon a time (from 1953 to 1982), in North Carolina, students needed only one math unit to graduate high school. It wasn't until 1996 that they needed algebra I (by then they also needed at least 3 units of math).

[Ananda]

This is not TX (but rather, NC), but I couldn't find historical graduation requirements for TX:

 

http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/accountability/policyoperations/transition/historygradreq.pdf

 

Once upon a time (from 1953 to 1982), in North Carolina, students needed only one math unit to graduate high school. It wasn't until 1996 that they needed algebra I (by then they also needed at least 3 units of math).

That was fascinating.  My parents who graduated in the early 70s took a lot more math than that.  My Dad had calculus.  My math phobic mother had 2 years algebra & 1 year geometry.  I wonder why they required 4 units English when they required only 1 unit math--seems unbalanced.

[Murphy101]

This is not TX (but rather, NC), but I couldn't find historical graduation requirements for TX:

 

http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/accountability/policyoperations/transition/historygradreq.pdf

 

Once upon a time (from 1953 to 1982), in North Carolina, students needed only one math unit to graduate high school. It wasn't until 1996 that they needed algebra I (by then they also needed at least 3 units of math).

Right. And yet my dad who left school in 6th grade can do math in his head better than most any high school graduate I've met in years.

 

It's one of those things where far too often doing more doesn't actually seem to mean learning more.

 

When I was graduating there was the start of mandating the "4x4 initiative" in my state.

4 each in maths, English, history and science in the four years of high school.

 

And it sounded like a fabulous idea.

But in 20+ years of implementation, it's as though it caused a regression instead of progression in education.

 

The mandate required the kids take the classes, but it didn't seem effective in mandating the be able to learn it or that the schools have enough teachers to teach it properly. Or idk what. But it doesn't seem to be working.