Mandylubug Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 to wax, nair or bleach facial hair if it was indeed noticeable and they were self conscious over it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 I'm torn. I want to teach self confidence, inner beauty, etc... but I also HAVE to wax my upper lip. I am pale and have dark facial hair. I was made fun of as a kid. My daughters have been asking for a while and it breaks my heart. They are so beautiful to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 YES. I'd find out what is safest/best for a child and let her. Today. I don't have daughters but I can't help answering anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikslo Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Unless you are off the opinion that kids, in general, are nicer these days (they're not), then I vote yes as well. ETA: Except for all of our kids, of course. All of us here are raising perfect angels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 YES. I'd find out what is safest/best for a child and let her. Today. I don't have daughters but I can't help answering anyway. :iagree: I think if you think your child might be mocked or ridiculed for something that is simple and safe to remedy, there is no good reason not to do it. Personally, I think it teaches a far more dangerous lesson about the importance of beauty when a child is made to feel unattractive, whether because other kids are pointing out a perceived flaw or because she is self-conscious. Kids can be awfully mean, and something like facial hair is very noticeable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 I just don't want to teach that they aren't enough just as they are. That is the only reason I have waited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I just don't want to teach that they aren't enough just as they are. That is the only reason I have waited. There is also something to be said for being the best they can be and for putting their best appearance forward. You don't have to ignore your appearance in order to prove to yourself that you're a valuable person. The kids in our family are all very self-confident, but they are also concerned about their looks. I don't think one thing negates the other. I also think it can really mess with a kid's confidence and willingness to try new things and meet new people if she is feeling self-conscious about her appearance, so if parents can help -- especially with easy-to-fix things like you are talking about -- I think they should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 :iagree: I think if you think your child might be mocked or ridiculed for something that is simple and safe to remedy, there is no good reason not to do it. Personally, I think it teaches a far more dangerous lesson about the importance of beauty when a child is made to feel unattractive, whether because other kids are pointing out a perceived flaw or because she is self-conscious. Kids can be awfully mean, and something like facial hair is very noticeable. This is fantastic. Getting highlights at 12 was fun, but didn't change my life. Being told I had "sausage link arms" forever scarred me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 This is fantastic. Getting highlights at 12 was fun, but didn't change my life. Being told I had "sausage link arms" forever scarred me. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: People can be so mean. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 <snip> Personally, I think it teaches a far more dangerous lesson about the importance of beauty when a child is made to feel unattractive, whether because other kids are pointing out a perceived flaw or because she is self-conscious. <snip> So agree. I would let my daughter do it in a heartbeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 yes I would Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momto10blessings Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Yes. Mean kids suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 Thank you all for allowing me to mentally be okay with it. It feels like a cosmetic thing to me and by default, I feel they are too young. However, it is noticeable and if they were teenagers, I would have no issue. The poor things are just going to be hairy like me :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I would without a doubt. I have allowed Sister to shave her legs and have waxed her brows since she was 8. She got the awesome light olive complexion from her mother's Italian family members. She also got the crazy dark body hair. I remember feeling ashamed that I needed to wax my brows as a teen because my mom made such a big deal about it. (In a don't talk about it sort of way) I come at it from the other end. It is no big deal. No state secret. No shame. Some people do, some don't, and it doesn't matter either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Thank you all for allowing me to mentally be okay with it. It feels like a cosmetic thing to me and by default, I feel they are too young. However, it is noticeable and if they were teenagers, I would have no issue. The poor things are just going to be hairy like me :( I would encourage you to consider that confidence can come from so many directions. Just because she doesn't want to rock her natural look doesn't mean she will forever feel like she has to hide something about her. For her, bleaching/waxing may simply forever be a practical choice, a consideration of style, like whether or not she wants to wear her hair short or long. She will take the biggest cue from you whether or not to make a big deal out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyJoy Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Thank you all for allowing me to mentally be okay with it. It feels like a cosmetic thing to me and by default, I feel they are too young. However, it is noticeable and if they were teenagers, I would have no issue. The poor things are just going to be hairy like me :( It's really lame that a preteen should even have to think about it but that's the way it is, sadly. My best friend of Mexican & Spanish descent was teased mercilessly as a 10-year-old for her facial and leg hair. Her mom freaked out about her being too young to shave but the kids were so cruel. My mom finally convinced hers after a few months of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I'm with you Mandy, my natural response is to hold off as long as possible. I have a 9 year old DD with similar colouring/features, not so much facial hair, but it hasn't come up yet! I know that I was around that age when it became painfully obvious to me thanks to school friends and I started shaving my legs. I really hope that she'll hold on to the child like innocence about this stuff a little longer, though she does know about the cultural norms, we've discussed it - and I shave my legs etc. None of her friends care about that stuff yet. DH is in the 'if it bothers her and we can fix it, why not' camp... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Although personally, I'd probably react with a unit study on Frida Kahlo, emphasising her talent and beauty, even with a unibrow. But that's just how we roll here...I wouldn't really force a 9 year old to remain upset, unless the hair was objectively not noticeable and within the normal range for others of the child's skin colouring and background. It's a damn shame we can't accept children as they are. Kids have always been mean about things like that; it's nothing new. A mean kid can always find a way to hurt another kid's feelings. I definitely wouldn't make a unit study about it; I think it would emphasize the issue in a negative way rather than teach a valuable positive lesson about how girls shouldn't let unibrows bother them. I would much prefer that a self-conscious girl would think nothing of removing a bit of facial hair, rather than thinking she is being vain and superficial by doing so. I don't view it as a bad thing when children want to look their best, unless they seem obsessed with their appearances. Wanting to get rid of facial hair seems perfectly normal to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 If it bothers her I'd consider it. My Dd has a unibrow and when she tells me it bothers her I will let her get it wax if she wanted to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 it really depends upon how noticeable, how sensitive the child, etc. I agree with teaching kids to not be obsessed over physical - but I also know how some kids can be extremely sensitive over things. and some things are a bigger deal than others. we even paid out for my teenage son to have a hair transplant because of how his hairline was receding. no one else really cared, but it was a huge deal to him. and it was a very odd receding pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitten18 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I would. It sucks to be an implacably hairy girl. I was not permitted to address my gorilla legs until the magical age of 13. (Why? What magical difference does being 13 make?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyofsixreboot Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 It's hair. Let her get rid of it or bleach or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdahoHomeschooler Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I wouldn't allow my daughter to do it, but I sure as heck would do it for her! Life is much too short to have to deal with unwanted facial hair. I think I would be more inclined to do it at home with the prewaxed strips. That way I could premedicate with ibuprofen and use a ice pack before and after to deal with any discomfort. I think this method would last the longest, cause less pain, and minimize re growth. I don't think shaving is a good idea, and I have seen a bad reaction to Nair. Salon waxing can be pretty painful for some people. Laser hair removal is expensive and painful, and burns can happen. Their are a lot of hair removal options, but not many good ones, unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momacacia Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I realize you haven't asked for product advice, but have a look at Moom prewaxed strips. They're on amazon. I e waxed my legs, brows, lip and underarms and bikini area for probably the last 15 years. These are the best, tidiest, most convenient thing (and fairly comfortable!) I've found for waxing on the face. I just keep them in my bathroom drawer, pull one out, warm with a hair dryer slightly, and wax little areas real quickly. Makes upkeep so much easier than dealing with a heated wax/strips or heated hard wax system. Hth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I am lucky that, having no daughters, I never had to deal with this. And I very likely would help a daughter in this situation. But your question makes me remember this internet story, that I will never, ever forget: http://jezebel.com/5946643/reddit-users-attempt-to-shame-sikh-woman-get-righteously-schooled Her courage, kindness to her tormentors, their contrition...it is too good a fairy tale not to take notice. I've read this to my kids and discussed it many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Yes I would. I expect us to be doing this soon. Looks aren't everything, that is true, but if we insist on not letting kids alter their looks, doesn't that actually put too much importance on looks? Especially for something I myself would not be OK with on my own face (I remove facial hair), I don't see insisting that my kids deal with it in their peer group. Let's face it, girls don't wear facial hair. You wouldn't force your boy to go to school with long hair, and I don't see the difference. Removing the hair will not draw attention to the girl or make her look unnatural to others. It will just mean she has one less thing to worry about. I am interested in doing laser hair removal for my girls when they bring up the issue. I don't know if I will be able to get anyone to do it, but I would like a solution that is effective and low maintenance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I would not, for my daughter in our social environment. I don't know what I would do were there ill-mannered people taunting her. The Greek physical characteristics predominate in my dd (so much so that she looks like a rebirth of her grandmother) that she has some dark upper lip. It does not bother her because she and some of her friends are into the craze for moustaches. [ ? ] Nobody ever has twitted her about her appearance. (She is one who would speak up to us were it to occur.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I am lucky that, having no daughters, I never had to deal with this. And I very likely would help a daughter in this situation. But your question makes me remember this internet story, that I will never, ever forget: http://jezebel.com/5946643/reddit-users-attempt-to-shame-sikh-woman-get-righteously-schooled Her courage, kindness to her tormentors, their contrition...it is too good a fairy tale not to take notice. I've read this to my kids and discussed it many times. I thought of this story, too. It's pretty amazing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 As for kids not having to care how they look, that ship has already sailed by age 9. It is perfectly normal for a school-aged girl to have some interest in her looks and how they compare to others' looks. I would rather put a positive spin on it. I bought my kids a manicure set so they can keep their nails clean and neat, so why not take a similar approach to facial hair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Yes, absolutely. Mine have accompanied me to waxes many times, so they don't see it as a big deal. However, they have seen it, so they aren't that interested in it... :D ETA: *blushing* Um, just eyebrow and upper lip waxes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I would, at first, be inclined to downplay and her normal features -- but I do that by example. In my situation, I have pale skin and hairy legs and arms. I could shave semi-weekly and have smooth pale legs (and/or arms) if I wanted to, but by age 2 I could tell that my dd (now 10) would have noticeable leg hair. At that point I cut way down on my shaving (bi-weekly-ish in the summer, and on special occasions in the winter) because I think that, 'I have hair like my mom, and she's not worried.' -- is a powerful message. If moms and daughters have the same hair, and 'mom' feels that hers definitely must be removed, I think that that message is loud and clear that it is perfectly normal for people to adjust their hairiness to suit their own preferences. That's a healthy message too... It's just higher maintenance, more expensive, and, using a razor is a safety thing. A daughter there is likely to 'prefer' a smooth look because that's what's normal in her family (and probably among her peers, too, but family matters a lot). What's a confusing message that makes the daughter feel like an outsider is to "make" her wait for an artificial benchmark age, before she is "allowed" to address her hair in a way that is "normal" in your family. If getting rid of facial hair is no more significant than trimming fingernails, nor any more significant than a man shaving his face -- that's how it should be treated. Things only get weird when they get mixed up into "coming of age" issues for girls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I would not, for my daughter in our social environment. I don't know what I would do were there ill-mannered people taunting her. The Greek physical characteristics predominate in my dd (so much so that she looks like a rebirth of her grandmother) that she has some dark upper lip. It does not bother her because she and some of her friends are into the craze for moustaches. [ ? ] Nobody ever has twitted her about her appearance. (She is one who would speak up to us were it to occur.) Sadly, facial hair is something that others will notice (and mention, either to your dd's face or behind her back to others) as she gets older and has friends of different ethnicities. I'm curious as to what you will do if, at that point, the hair does bother her. (Obviously, if it doesn't bother her, it will be a complete non-issue.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mothersweets Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I would, and did! My 10yo dd recently had her lip and brow done for the first time. It was a good experience for her and she is really happy to have had it done. She wasn't being teased about it but on her own asked to have it done. eta - I get my lip and eyebrows waxed about once a month. As a 9 or 10yo, I had dark hair on my legs and arms and a bit of a moustache. :( I totally remember the anguish and embarrassment I felt over it but never thought to talk about it with my mom. I'm so glad that my dd felt comfortable enough with me to ask about having it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Absolutely. My reasons have been set forth by previous posters. I think it is kind and sensitive to let her remedy something that is distressing her that is so easily remedied. I have very pale skin and very dark hair, and I'm way too lazy to wax or really pluck or shave all that often. So it's not super important to me. If it becomes important to DD I will not assign an arbitrary age at which she can remove body hair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 to wax, nair or bleach facial hair if it was indeed noticeable and they were self conscious over it? Yes. If these things are a problem for the child, I would assist her in taking care of it in the best way possible for her age. I don't think any age restrictions should be on these activities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Yes. I've been braced for this for my dd pretty much since the day she was born. While I'm fair and wish I had eyebrows TO shape, her father's Middle Eastern and Native American genes take center stage. I always said I would address "basic grooming" (as opposed to some sort of beauty regimen) before anyone had a chance to put things in a negative light and impact her self-esteem. The funny thing is, HER eyebrows seemed to contain themselves just short of where I think I would have taken action. Of course that could change any day, but I find it amusing that my plan to be proactive has been halted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I have a son with kind of a unibrow going. His older sister told him he had a unibrow, but he was unphased. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Sadly, facial hair is something that others will notice (and mention, either to your dd's face or behind her back to others) as she gets older and has friends of different ethnicities. I'm curious as to what you will do if, at that point, the hair does bother her. (Obviously, if it doesn't bother her, it will be a complete non-issue.) As she is 16 now, she may do whatever she feels necessary whenever she considers it a problem. Her friends currently include Greek, Pakistani, Russian, African-American (please don't wallop me if I do not know the most recent preferred term), and "generic white bread American" people. I don't know why ethnicities were brought up, but there's the answer at this time. Anyway, it is not as if she has sprouted a beard, or something extreme! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypamama Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Since they have asked multiple times, I would. I probably wouldn't have jumped to say yes the first time, figuring the thought might pass, but since it hasn't passed, yes, I'd let them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraidycat Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Yes. Different circumstnce, but as of about 30 minutes ago I just finished, bleaching, dyeing bright royal blue, and cutting/spiking my 9 year old DS's hair. A couple months ago, it was fire red. This from an alternative-crunchy-all natural-hippyish Mom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Of course, why not? I never understood the prohibition on hair removal. It's naive to think appearances don't matter, and I let DD dye her hair, shave her legs, wear nail polish, Etc... On her timetable. It's not a biggie around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I modified my comments in light of OP's second post. Appearances are important to teens, which is not unusual, since they are important to adults. It's part how we evaluate a potential mate. *shrug* I don't prohibit it, but the reason I feel uncomfortable with a 9 year old feeling like she has no other choice has nothing to do with being uncomfortable with a child's maturation, and everything to do with the culture that make 9 year olds with darker facial hair feel like freaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I don't think so. I don't think "because people might mock her" is a good enough reason. We teach our kids that their bodies are good and beautiful in the natural state, and that all cosmetic "grooming" (as opposed to hygiene activities) is optional. Maybe with teenagers I'd think differently. But not for a 9yo. I'm grateful that my 9yo doesn't care how she looks yet, but I assume it's going to happen eventually, so I am trying to get in as much feminist indoctrination as possible in the meantime ;) We don't really have to depilate. Most women choose to, because they find the costs of doing it (financial costs, discomfort, risk, time required) are less than the costs of not doing it (disapproval from others, discrimination). @Fraidycat, I do not believe your story is the same thing at all. If anything, you are doing the opposite thing to bowing under social pressure, because many people would actually disapprove of your son's new look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Yes. It sucks to be embarrassed about your appearance. This is an aspect that is so easy to change. Being made fun of for a mustache at 9 is not less embarrassing than being made fun of for it at 11 or 13. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 If my daughter's 'friends' teased or bullied her because of her appearance, I would rather change her friends than change her appearance. Anyway, how far are all of you pro-depilation people willing to take things? What if you bleach the facial hair, and a few years later the girl gets ridiculed for something else? Would you encourage her to get a breast enlargement, or take extreme weight loss measures, or whatever else the beauty police happen to demand? Or what if she is ridiculed for something else, such as her academic success, or her honesty? Would you tell her to abandon those attributes? Wouldn't it be better for her to learn right now that you don't have to please everybody, and that some people aren't worth pleasing (i.e., people who won't accept you unless you change your appearance)? Yes it is always hard to be made fun of. I've btdt. But if she can be gently and carefully supported to reject the unwritten rules of feminine conformity, there will be great rewards later on. (And she can still choose to bleach her face as an adult, knowing that she doesn't have to, and it's her genuine choice.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 If my daughter's 'friends' teased or bullied her because of her appearance, I would rather change her friends than change her appearance. Anyway, how far are all of you pro-depilation people willing to take things? What if you bleach the facial hair, and a few years later the girl gets ridiculed for something else? Would you encourage her to get a breast enlargement, or take extreme weight loss measures, or whatever else the beauty police happen to demand? Or what if she is ridiculed for something else, such as her academic success, or her honesty? Would you tell her to abandon those attributes? Wouldn't it be better for her to learn right now that you don't have to please everybody, and that some people aren't worth pleasing (i.e., people who won't accept you unless you change your appearance)? Yes it is always hard to be made fun of. I've btdt. But if she can be gently and carefully supported to reject the unwritten rules of feminine conformity, there will be great rewards later on. (And she can still choose to bleach her face as an adult, knowing that she doesn't have to, and it's her genuine choice.) Temporarily removing or lightening facial hair at the request of one's child is not at all the same as getting breast enlargements or extreme weight loss measures, and it is inappropriate to suggest a comparison. I will not use my young child as a means to further any social agenda, mine or anyone else's. If I want to sprout a full beard and leave it or grow the hair on my legs or underarms or refuse to wear make-up or any other thing that society seems to like women to do, that is fine. I won't pressure my child to do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 If my daughter were embarrassed by body odor, bad breath, or acne, I would help her attend to those needs as well. I wouldn't fret too much about conforming to the cultural beauty machine for those either. I think there are many ways to learn about inner beauty and non-conformity. I don't think those lessons have to be learned through embarrassment, or self-loathing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Temporarily removing or lightening facial hair at the request of one's child is not at all the same as getting breast enlargements or extreme weight loss measures, and it is inappropriate to suggest a comparison. I will not use my young child as a means to further any social agenda, mine or anyone else's. If I want to sprout a full beard and leave it or grow the hair on my legs or underarms or refuse to wear make-up or any other thing that society seems to like women to do, that is fine. I won't pressure my child to do the same. I didn't say that those examples were 'the same'. But they differ only in degree. While removing hair is significantly less drastic, they are all physical changes that have no purpose other than to conform to social expectations. With regard to agenda, all parenting practices have an agenda. For example, all of us here have an agenda relating to appropriately educating our children. If you encourage you child to make changes that have no purpose other than to conform, then you are in fact 'further a social agenda': the agenda of conformity. I don't see my attitude as anything like 'pressuring' my children. I see it as protecting them from external pressure until they are mature enough to make their own choices. I try to keep them away from kids who are too into 'beauty' and 'sexiness' in just the same way as I'd try to keep them away from kids who are into shoplifting or anything else I see as negative. I'm sure you would feel similarly on some issues (possibly you'd keep your kids away from filthy hairy women like me ;) ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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