How to not brainwash your children with your faith? CC

[Slache]

I'm a Christian  :ohmy:. I obviously have a desire to raise my children in a way that they come to know the Lord. I will teach them the Bible, use Christian curriculum, take them to church and pray with and for them. But I know so many people that essentially force and brainwash their kids into believing what they believe and acting the way they want them to act. Not good. Not good for the kids, not good for the parents and in no way does this honor the Lord, the one this is all supposed to be about.

 

I wasn't raised Christian. My mom was an addict and my dad was gone being an addict somewhere else. I'm only now learning what it means to be a parent and to love someone and put their needs first. So, learning how to be a christian parent is just another heap on top of what I don't already know.

 

I will teach my kids about evolution, other religions, and things of that nature so they can see the world for what it is. They already see us engaging with JWs and Mormons (no offence meant, we just have large theological differences).

 

So, what do you do, as a christian to raise your child in the Lord? What did you do right? What do you regret?

 

Thanks,

 

Rachel

 

ETA: This is sort of a shout out (or whatever s/o stands for) of ?'s for christians with adult children. Just a more concentrated question.

[Excelsior! Academy]

I am not really sure how to answer you.  If you have a belief and that belief is strong why wouldn't you want to pass that on to your children? 

[unfrumpable.]

Well, I am not Christian, though I have been in the past and I was raised Catholic. Although many conservative views that get tied in with religious views upset me, I am often open to the faith and fluctuate back and forth and struggle with it a lot internally. 

 

That said, I do similar to what you do. I teach and expose my son to different faiths and beliefs. We do use some Christian curriculum because we are taking Minecraft classes that use it. It opens up a lot of discussion. He is all sorts of confused and I feel bad, but I'm confused and unsure myself so I can't give him any clear direction with that. I do want him to be able to make his own decisions as he grows and I don't necessarily want to "brainwash" him one way or another. It is rough around here. lol

 

I was brought up as a lax Catholic, but my parents never discussed theology or religion. They did not encourage exploration or discussion of other religions. I had a very simple faith which was shattered when I joined up with a fundie, cultish type group. I sometimes wish I still had that simple faith!

 

Anyways, although I'm not Christian, I'd thought I'd share my view on it because it is at the forefront of my mind often.

[HRAAB]

Honest question here - please don't be offended.  How is what you are doing different than what you consider brainwashing?  I assume you're teaching your children that the Biblical God and the Bible are Truth, that Jesus Christ is the only path to heaven, that non-Christian religions do not have the truth and therefore do not have salvation.  If I've made an incorrect assumption, please tell me.  I guess I don't see how this is any different from the many, many Christian families I know.

[unfrumpable.]

I am not really sure how to answer you.  If you have a belief and that belief is strong why wouldn't you want to pass that on to your children? 

 

I was talking with someone of the JW faith once while we were waiting for some car work to get done. I told her my current standpoint on faith and that I didn't want to influence my son and that he should be able to make his own choice regarding faith and spirituality. She said she thought it was my job as a parent to guide my son in the way of the faith to give him a good backbone, I guess. I thought it was irrelevant since I don't follow or subscribe to any faith, but I understood where she's coming from.

 

I think I can see where Slache is coming from too and I commend her for asking her questions. I think they're legitimate and good questions.

[Aura]

I think there's a difference between passing on a belief and brainwashing.

 

I think back on how I was raised, and I'm sure my parents didn't intend to "brainwash" me, but that's pretty much the result when you're told that if you don't believe a certain way, then you're going to burn in hell for eternity, and when questions that cannot be explained are brushed aside with "you just have to have faith" and "we'll understand that when we get to heaven."

 

If kids are not free to accept something else without such dire consequences, then IMO, they are being brainwashed.

 

So, I guess my answer would be that when you share, explain, and teach, you're passing on your belief, but when you start issuing eternal ultimatums, then you're brainwashing.

[unfrumpable.]

Honest question here - please don't be offended.  How is what you are doing different than what you consider brainwashing?  I assume you're teaching your children that the Biblical God and the Bible are Truth, that Jesus Christ is the only path to heaven, that non-Christian religions do not have the truth and therefore do not have salvation.  If I've made an incorrect assumption, please tell me.  I guess I don't see how this is any different from the many, many Christian families I know.

 

I can't speak for Slache, but I'm thinking that even if she is teaching what you mentioned, it seems she is open to educating her children about different faiths, beliefs, science, etc. I am thinking that there are families of faith who don't ever explore any other belief besides their own and shelter their children from anything else as well and maybe that is what she is trying to avoid and/or why she is asking questions.

[Scarlett]

I teach my son what I believe to be true.  People who disagree with that belief tend to see that as brainwashing.  I am not concerned with what other people think of my parenting choices.  I am doing the best I can and I assume others are as well.

[Slache]

I am not really sure how to answer you.  If you have a belief and that belief is strong why wouldn't you want to pass that on to your children? 

Yes, but I don't want to force it on them which is what I see so many doing.

 

Honest question here - please don't be offended.  How is what you are doing different than what you consider brainwashing?  I assume you're teaching your children that the Biblical God and the Bible are Truth, that Jesus Christ is the only path to heaven, that non-Christian religions do not have the truth and therefore do not have salvation.  If I've made an incorrect assumption, please tell me.  I guess I don't see how this is any different from the many, many Christian families I know.

I don't know exactly. That's what I'm trying to figure out. Where's the line between protecting the children God gave you and over sheltering them?

 

I can't speak for Slache, but I'm thinking that even if she is teaching what you mentioned, it seems she is open to educating her children about different faiths, beliefs, science, etc. I am thinking that there are families of faith who don't ever explore any other belief besides their own and shelter their children from anything else as well and maybe that is what she is trying to avoid and/or why she is asking questions.

This and more. :)

[Paige]

For me, I teach my kids what I believe. I tell them it is what I believe and what I feel is true. We talk about the aspects of our faith that others may not believe and I tell them that they need to make up their own minds. I think the difference between passing on your faith respectfully and brainwashing is that being respectful means allowing people to investigate the evidence and question without berating or shaming them. I'm not going to pretend that I don't believe what I believe, but I'm also going to be a safe place for my children to come to no matter what they believe. I think you can't please everyone and some people may say I'm still brainwashing my kids, but I don't care. I'm doing my best to be consistent.

[Slache]

For me, I teach my kids what I believe. I tell them it is what I believe and what I feel is true. We talk about the aspects of our faith that others may not believe and I tell them that they need to make up their own minds. I think the difference between passing on your faith respectfully and brainwashing is that being respectful means allowing people to investigate the evidence and question without berating or shaming them. I'm not going to pretend that I don't believe what I believe, but I'm also going to be a safe place for my children to come to no matter what they believe. I think you can't please everyone and some people may say I'm still brainwashing my kids, but I don't care. I'm doing my best to be consistent.

 

I love this. Thank you. I see a lot of children coming to their parents with questions and the answer is "no" or "that's not what we believe". I don't like that. A child is a person and deserves a real answer.

[HRAAB]

I think there's a difference between passing on a belief and brainwashing.

 

I think back on how I was raised, and I'm sure my parents didn't intend to "brainwash" me, but that's pretty much the result when you're told that if you don't believe a certain way, then you're going to burn in hell for eternity, and when questions that cannot be explained are brushed aside with "you just have to have faith" and "we'll understand that when we get to heaven."

 

If kids are not free to accept something else without such dire consequences, then IMO, they are being brainwashed.

 

So, I guess my answer would be that when you share, explain, and teach, you're passing on your belief, but when you start issuing eternal ultimatums, then you're brainwashing.

 

This is what I was thinking.  A committed Christian is going to teach their children that salvation is through Jesus alone; theology might differ among different Christian denomination, but Jesus is the way is constant.  Other religions lead to eternal damnation.  I expect Christian parents to teach their children that belief, but I also see how many people could call that brainwashing.  The word brainwashing is most likely defined differently for different people.

 

When I was inside the church I most definitely taught my children that we had the fullness of truth, and that Jesus was the only way to heaven.  That didn't mean I didn't expose them to other religions, Christian or non-Christian, or positions that were opposed to our belief, but I always countered that with what our faith taught, and I presented that as the truth.  I wasn't a parent who sheltered her children from opposing beliefs or from people who held those beliefs, but I'm sure many people would have considered my children brainwashed.

 

I do not want to brainwash my children, but I have to admit I know I have great influence over them.  They are being indoctrinated with my views because they live with me, day in and day out.  I still explain opposing views, and try to do that fairly, but I have the bigger voice simply because I'm their mother.  Of course none of my views include anything such as eternal ultimatums, earthly consequences yes, but no eternal rewards or punishments.  I'm just not sure that all parents don't do some brainwashing, intentional or not, because of their position.

 

eta:  maybe I'm confusing indoctrinating and brainwashing.  how are they different?

[unfrumpable.]

For me, I teach my kids what I believe. I tell them it is what I believe and what I feel is true. We talk about the aspects of our faith that others may not believe and I tell them that they need to make up their own minds. I think the difference between passing on your faith respectfully and brainwashing is that being respectful means allowing people to investigate the evidence and question without berating or shaming them. I'm not going to pretend that I don't believe what I believe, but I'm also going to be a safe place for my children to come to no matter what they believe. I think you can't please everyone and some people may say I'm still brainwashing my kids, but I don't care. I'm doing my best to be consistent.

 

My parents were definitely not open to other faiths at all. I can still remember my mom shutting down any interest or questions I had. It drove them crazy when I joined that crazy group. It may partly have been because I started telling them they were going to hell if they didn't convert, I don't know. :) But I assume they were so happy when I finally left that church that they never said anything negative about any avenues I explored after that.

[unfrumpable.]

This is what I was thinking.  A committed Christian is going to teach their children that salvation is through Jesus alone; theology might differ among different Christian denomination, but Jesus is the way is constant.  Other religions lead to eternal damnation.  I expect Christian parents to teach their children that belief, but I also see how many people could call that brainwashing.  The word brainwashing is most likely defined differently for different people.

 

When I was inside the church I most definitely taught my children that we had the fullness of truth, and that Jesus was the only way to heaven.  That didn't mean I didn't expose them to other religions, Christian or non-Christian, or positions that were opposed to our belief, but I always countered that with what our faith taught, and I presented that as the truth.  I wasn't a parent who sheltered her children from opposing beliefs or from people who held those beliefs, but I'm sure many people would have considered my children brainwashed.

 

I do not want to brainwash my children, but I have to admit I know I have great influence over them.  They are being indoctrinated with my views because they live with me, day in and day out.  I still explain opposing views, and try to do that fairly, but I have the bigger voice simply because I'm their mother.  Of course none of my views include anything such as eternal ultimatums, earthly consequences yes, but no eternal rewards or punishments.  I'm just not sure that all parents don't do some brainwashing, intentional or not, because of their position.

 

This!

[hillfarm]

I think you have the first part covered - ensure that your dc knows the basics of your religion. The second and third parts are a lot harder.

 

Secondly, you need to live it yourself. Model for your dc what being a Christian is. Where do you turn when trouble comes to your life. How do you treat others? How often do you seek the will of God for your life, how do you know when you've found it, and how to you respond? What do you do when what you know to be God's will conflicts with your own, human will? Don't be a private Christian. Let him see how it plays out in the reality of your life.

 

And third, realize that you cannot do it for him, nor can you force it into him. Ultimately you have to allow this to be between him and God. You can encourage the outward manifestation of his religion, but you cannot force his internal beliefs. Sadly, I know many kids who have been raised in the church who know how to look and act like a Christian, how to talk the talk, but who don't seem to have actually incorporated the essence of Christianity into their lives. I think the best you can do with this is to help him realize that a person's spiritual beliefs consist of so much more than the outward appearance. I believe that if we teach them to seek, it is much more likely that they will find.

 

And finally, I think it helps to expose our dc to other Christians. With the full understanding that we are all flawed and that he certainly will see inconsistencies and imperfections among them. But help him to begin to detect that glimmer of the reflection of Christ that is evident in some lives. Help him see that it is real - not just for you, but for others he respects also. Allow him to see what life without Christ is like, and not just the flashy exterior, but the whole package, the truth of the interior also.

 

And pray. A lot.

[ErinE]

For me, I teach my kids what I believe. I tell them it is what I believe and what I feel is true. We talk about the aspects of our faith that others may not believe and I tell them that they need to make up their own minds. I think the difference between passing on your faith respectfully and brainwashing is that being respectful means allowing people to investigate the evidence and question without berating or shaming them. I'm not going to pretend that I don't believe what I believe, but I'm also going to be a safe place for my children to come to no matter what they believe. I think you can't please everyone and some people may say I'm still brainwashing my kids, but I don't care. I'm doing my best to be consistent.

I absolutely agree. I was raised by a Roman Catholic and an agnostic-to-atheist. Both parents shared their beliefs and their reasons, but encouraged my siblings and me to find our own way, whether religious or not. DH and I do the same for our kids. You can't force faith. At best, you can be a guide and a good example.

[Susan C.]

I think its important to share your faith with your kids in the context that its what you believe. Also, that its evolving and that you may no longer believe things you told them years ago. Then allow them to work out their own faith and not freak out if it doesn't look exactly like yours. I enjoy the many discussions we have about it, somehow I've managed to keep the communication lines open. I suspect its because I grant them the freedom to do/say what they wish as far as beliefs go. We are all Christian, I've gone from conservative to moderate, they have come out more liberal. Its their kind sharing that challenged me.

[Seasider]

Let them know it's okay to ask questions, and teach them how to root out the answers.

 

You might enjoy this book, I love it:

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0936163380/ref=redir_mdp_mobile

[Susan in TN]

Everyone passes their beliefs (or "non-beliefs") to their children.  I think the brainwashing you are thinking of comes from a parent's fear of losing control.  And while it is important to teach your children, in the end you can't control their beliefs.  It's just particularly hard because a person's faith (or philosophy, if you prefer) is essentially what makes them who they are and it is hard to see a loved one reject what is so important to you.

[MercyA]

What great questions.  I'm not an expert by any means, but I share your concerns.  Here are a few things we do:

 

We try not to use curriculums which are dogmatic and inflexible in their views on science.  I am a creationist and not an evolutionist, but I think some creationist curriculums are not honest and forthright about scientific facts.  When children go to college and find that they have not always been taught the truth, their faith can be shaken.  There is no reason for that, and it is frustrating to me.  I do have some science textbooks from Christian Schools International, since they present both Old Earth and Young Earth creationist views.  I plan to teach my children about the theory of evolution. 

 

We try not to use history books that whitewash America's history and promote the view that America can do no wrong.  That type of attitude harms the ability to think critically.  We deliberately read books about many different cultures.  I like Anabaptist curriculums, like Christian Light, which tend to avoid American-centric views.

 

We concentrate on teaching directly from the Bible rather than using lots of devotionals.  I believe this teaches the full and true character of God and helps avoid dogmatic and possibly faulty interpretations.

 

We deliberately teach (or plan to teach) critical thinking skills and logic.

 

This book by Ray Comfort might be helpful for you.  I'd be happy to send you a copy if you'd like; just PM me.  

[Joker]

This is what I was thinking.  A committed Christian is going to teach their children that salvation is through Jesus alone; theology might differ among different Christian denomination, but Jesus is the way is constant.  Other religions lead to eternal damnation.  I expect Christian parents to teach their children that belief, but I also see how many people could call that brainwashing.  The word brainwashing is most likely defined differently for different people.

 

When I was inside the church I most definitely taught my children that we had the fullness of truth, and that Jesus was the only way to heaven.  That didn't mean I didn't expose them to other religions, Christian or non-Christian, or positions that were opposed to our belief, but I always countered that with what our faith taught, and I presented that as the truth.  I wasn't a parent who sheltered her children from opposing beliefs or from people who held those beliefs, but I'm sure many people would have considered my children brainwashed.

 

I do not want to brainwash my children, but I have to admit I know I have great influence over them.  They are being indoctrinated with my views because they live with me, day in and day out.  I still explain opposing views, and try to do that fairly, but I have the bigger voice simply because I'm their mother.  Of course none of my views include anything such as eternal ultimatums, earthly consequences yes, but no eternal rewards or punishments.  I'm just not sure that all parents don't do some brainwashing, intentional or not, because of their position.

 

eta:  maybe I'm confusing indoctrinating and brainwashing.  how are they different?

 

We don't teach our children the above. We've never told our dds that other religious beliefs lead to eternal damnation. We've brought them up in our church and they are currently going through RCIA but we have never told them that those who believe differently are damned or wrong. We just say they believe differently than we do. I was never told those things growing up either by people I loved and trusted. I did hear those things from some in our church but not my ever by my family.

 

We also encourage their interests in other beliefs and religions. We keep books around the house and if we can't answer their questions we find someone who can. Oldest is the most interested in other religions and does the most reading and asking. It doesn't bother us at all. I don't feel that our beliefs are challenged by her questions and I think it just makes her own belief stronger.

 

[Seasider]

Great suggestions, MercyA!

[Jan in SC]

This is what I was thinking. A committed Christian is going to teach their children that salvation is through Jesus alone; theology might differ among different Christian denomination, but Jesus is the way is constant. Other religions lead to eternal damnation. I expect Christian parents to teach their children that belief, but I also see how many people could call that brainwashing.

Um- one way to start is to realize that there are Christian denominations that believe Jesus isn't the only path to God. They believe that God is God and for some people, Jesus is the way.

[wingedradical]

I relate to what is the way I tried/tried to balance it. I taught my children (and foster daughter) the elements of my faith. I also taught them about other faiths but was clear I thought ours was .... well...the true one (I don't mean to offend anyone here but what is a religion worth to me  if I don't think it is true?). As long as my children were at home, I expected them to learn more, pray, attend church, etc. I hoped it would also be something they chose for themselves at a certain age (which it was).  BUT

 

I don't think their faith was a matter of "I taught them the precepts well." I think that ultimately, children learn faith by observing it and answering the call of God when they hear it. Christianity has precepts but it is not precepts, it is relationship. God doesn't have grandchildren, he only has children. So if you are happy with or think you can get somewhere by teaching your children to "be good Christian kids or adults," you are mistaken and you can end up with children who are basically, brainwashed (or who shuck it. But teach the precepts and teach them to expect their own relationship with God and they will be okay.

 

BTW, I don't mean to step on toes here...  I know that not only do we have different (and no) faiths here, but different beliefs within Christianity. For example, some believe in infant baptism, some in adult. Some believe in "decision theology," and some don't. Yet even if you are Catholic or Reformed, most of you do believe that at some point your child's life in God is up to them and not up to you.This is what I'm talking about

[milovany]

This is what I was thinking.  A committed Christian is going to teach their children that salvation is through Jesus alone; theology might differ among different Christian denomination, but Jesus is the way is constant.  Other religions lead to eternal damnation.  I expect Christian parents to teach their children that belief...

 

Not all other "committed Christians" teach the bolded and I would say most actually don't (for example, Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic do not teach this, from what I understand, and that's probably a goodly lot more than half the Christians in the world). It's dangerous to make a general statement as to what "committed Christians" would and wouldn't do/teach.

 

OP, I'm of the opinion that you live your life of faith, naturally and lovingly, and your kids will make their decisions as they grow older.  My parents were of the a-religious mindset that they wouldn't do much to guide us in the faith, letting us make our own decisions.  I respect that but also don't agree with it for our own family.  My parents weren't religious; we are and we are because we believe its truth.  So we live the truth we believe in and our kids will be exposed to that. 

[HRAAB]

Um- one way to start is to realize that there are Christian denominations that believe Jesus isn't the only path to God. They believe that God is God and for some people, Jesus is the way.

 

I know this, but then there are many Christians who don't consider people with those beliefs Christian.  As I went through deconstructing my faith, this is where I was for a long time, however, I had many people tell me I couldn't consider myself a Christian.  Out of curiosity, what Christian denominations teach that Jesus might be the way to heaven for some people but not all.  I was a lifelong Catholic until my deconversion and other denominations that I'm familiar with definitely teach Jesus is the savior, except for the UU church.  What I taught my children was that we had the fullness of truth, but we could never say for sure who had salvation and who didn't; yes Jesus was the savior of the world, but how that might work among other non-Christian faiths we didn't know.

[hillfarm]

When my dd was old enough to be able to comprehend the abstract concepts associated with religion, I began teaching her about our faith. We covered the history of Christianity and reviewed some of the many sects and denominations. For example, did you know that there are over 125 different kinds of Baptists in America, and that their beliefs vary quite a bit? In addition, we talked about the specifics of our denomination and she was able to interview our pastor and to ask him any questions she wanted to about our beliefs.

 

After I felt she had a good grounding in our faith and a solid basis for comparison and understanding, we began a history and comparison of world religions class. By having studied our own faith first, she was able to compare different beliefs by asking things like, "What do they believe happens after a person dies?", or "How does their belief system address nonbelievers?".

 

There has never been any punishment or condemnation for questioning our beliefs, however I won't tolerate disrespect. So while both she and I may think a particular person is "pretty far out there" with regards to how they believe, we do not mock them or otherwise insult them. We work with the assumption that everyone's beliefs are sincerely held and try hard to afford them as much respect as we wish was given to us.

[6packofun]

Passing on your belief = "This is what I believe and why I believe it.  What do you think?"   (They agree...yay!  I've "passed it on".  They disagree...sadness!  But they came to their own conclusion and we're still going to keep talking about it.  ;) )

 

Brainwashing = "You must believe this."

 

Yes, there is a difference.

 

I think the question, "What do you think?" is one of the most important questions I can ask as my children's spiritual mentor, followed by "WHY do you believe that?"  This is where knowing what and WHY I believe is so important.  I SHOULD have to respond to their questions!  Everyone questions what they believe and, IMO, if they don't, then they have been brainwashed or are holding on to an ideology or philosophy blindly or only to be accepted culturally or within some desired group.  *shrug*

 

My kids have varying beliefs on creation.  My husband and I don't agree on it.  Now, that is not, in our opinion, a salvation issue.  But we've been intellectually engaged with our own faith to search out the answers for ourselves.  Do most of our opinions fall within the realm of belief in the Christian God?  Yep.  Do we each wrestle with--and help one another wrestle with!--that belief system?  Wholeheartedly YEP!  :)

 

As parents we model a good questioning and doubt-to-resolution process; with faith or any other aspect of life.  We don't doubt in secret.  We question in the open and try to find truth together.  I don't think there is a guarantee that this way of doing faith together will keep them from leaving it one day, but I do think it's a great way to encourage my kids to give thought and scrutiny to ALL things they are asked to believe or want to believe--in Christianity or in other realms of life, for their WHOLE lives.

[Jan in SC]

I know this, but then there are many Christians who don't consider people with those beliefs Christian. As I went through deconstructing my faith, this is where I was for a long time, however, I had many people tell me I couldn't consider myself a Christian. Out of curiosity, what Christian denominations teach that Jesus might be the way to heaven for some people but not all. I was a lifelong Catholic until my deconversion and other denominations that I'm familiar with definitely teach Jesus is the savior, except for the UU church. What I taught my children was that we had the fullness of truth, but we could never say for sure who had salvation and who didn't; yes Jesus was the savior of the world, but how that might work among other non-Christian faiths we didn't know.

All of the ELCA Lutheran or Episcopal church I've ever attended have been very clear about it. It could vary by region, though. I would imagine that there are Presbyterian and Methodist churches with this belief.

[PrincessMommy]

I'm a Christian  :ohmy:. I obviously have a desire to raise my children in a way that they come to know the Lord. I will teach them the Bible, use Christian curriculum, take them to church and pray with and for them. But I know so many people that essentially force and brainwash their kids into believing what they believe and acting the way they want them to act. Not good. Not good for the kids, not good for the parents and in no way does this honor the Lord, the one this is all supposed to be about.

 

I wasn't raised Christian. My mom was an addict and my dad was gone being an addict somewhere else. I'm only now learning what it means to be a parent and to love someone and put their needs first. So, learning how to be a christian parent is just another heap on top of what I don't already know.

 

I will teach my kids about evolution, other religions, and things of that nature so they can see the world for what it is. They already see us engaging with JWs and Mormons (no offence meant, we just have large theological differences).

 

So, what do you do, as a christian to raise your child in the Lord? What did you do right? What do you regret?

 

Thanks,

 

Rachel

 

ETA: This is sort of a shout out (or whatever s/o stands for) of ?'s for christians with adult children. Just a more concentrated question.

 

I think brainwash isn't quite right a description.  I think what you may mean is parents who who are very controlling about their faith.   I've always tried to raise my kids with my faith (and that has changed too)...just as you described.  I think the key is to always be open that other ways of thinking or being a Christian and they are just as valid and wonderful.   Mainly the "only" people - can't use wine for communion, only wear dresses, only use the KJV, only homeschool, etc. etc. etc.   

 

I think the key too is that there is no hard and fast rule to raising our kids to keep the faith.  I wish there were.. really I do.  I've seen too many kind, gentle Christian parents have their children turn away from the faith.  It's just as heartbreaking.  

 

The other thing out of our control is what other Christians say/do to our children.   My kids are older and some of the things they've told me that Sunday school teachers or other Christian parents have told them will make your toes curl.    My 23yr old dd went for about 3yrs to a small Christian school specifically for kids with LD.  It was a great school and gave her the tools she needed to succeed in a traditional high school and in college.  But, just last week dd told me that her teacher once told her that all girls should act dumb so they can catch a husband !!??!     I was flabbergasted!  OMG!!  And she was telling this to girls will terrible self-esteem issues because they had learning problems!!  What the  was she thinking??

 

 

One piece of advice I got about 2yrs ago concerning parenting is to talk to God about your kids more than you talk to your kids about God. 

 

So my advice from someone who isn't finished yet is to love your kids and pray for them.

[AlmiraGulch]

I teach my son what I believe to be true.  People who disagree with that belief tend to see that as brainwashing.  I am not concerned with what other people think of my parenting choices.  I am doing the best I can and I assume others are as well.

I don't see that as brainwashing at all.  I think it's natural and common and even expected that parents will teach their children what they believe. 

 

Where I take issue is when people refuse to expose their children to other belief systems.  I'm not saying they need to encourage them to practice those other belief systems, or religions.  That would be unusual.  Where I bristle is when people don't even expose their kids to other religions (since we are talking about religion here, I'll keep it on topic) from even an educational standpoint.  So, we are Christian and here's what we believe to be Truth.  There are other Christians who believe X.  There are even many, many more religions, and here's what they believe.

That makes it sound as if I think every parent should have a formal Religions of the World class for their kids. I don't.  What I do find important is to find ways to weave that exposure into normal life, and to attempt to do so from a factual standpoint and not one of disdain or threats or one that imposes automatic bias and negative implication.  In my opinion, that allows kids to see what else is out there and perhaps decide for themselves what they believe, while still being taught that what your family believes is what is right.

 

Does that make any sense at all?

[Slache]

I just bathed the kids and came back to over 20 notifications. Hi everybody! To respond to a running theme, yes I do agree that everybody brainwashes their kids to some degree. It comes with the territory.

 

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Secondly, you need to live it yourself. Model for your dc what being a Christian is. Where do you turn when trouble comes to your life. How do you treat others? How often do you seek the will of God for your life, how do you know when you've found it, and how to you respond? What do you do when what you know to be God's will conflicts with your own, human will? Don't be a private Christian. Let him see how it plays out in the reality of your life.

 

This really resonates with a session given by Heidi St. John (A Homeschool Mom's Guide To Daylight) that really spoke to me at the HS conference, especially the bolded part. I really need to make this a priority (says the woman on the internet who hasn't read her Bible yet today).

 

Let them know it's okay to ask questions, and teach them how to root out the answers.

You might enjoy this book, I love it:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0936163380/ref=redir_mdp_mobile

Thankyou! I shall pin it!

 

Everyone passes their beliefs (or "non-beliefs") to their children.  I think the brainwashing you are thinking of comes from a parent's fear of losing control.  And while it is important to teach your children, in the end you can't control their beliefs.  It's just particularly hard because a person's faith (or philosophy, if you prefer) is essentially what makes them who they are and it is hard to see a loved one reject what is so important to you.

This makes total sense.

 

What great questions.  I'm not an expert by any means (Why not?!), but I share your concerns.  Here are a few things we do:

 

We try not to use curriculums which are dogmatic and inflexible in their views on science.  I am a creationist and not an evolutionist, but I think some creationist curriculums are not honest and forthright about scientific facts I'd really like to know what those are. Can you PM me?.  When children go to college and find that they have not always been taught the truth, their faith can be shaken. Agreed.  There is no reason for that, and it is frustrating to me.  I do have some science textbooks from Christian Schools International, since they present both Old Earth and Young Earth creationist views.  I plan to teach my children about the theory of evolution. 

 

We try not to use history books that whitewash America's history and promote the view that America can do no wrong.  That type of attitude harms the ability to think critically.  We deliberately read books about many different cultures.  I like Anabaptist curriculums, like Christian Light, which tend to avoid American-centric views. Thanks. Good to know.

 

We concentrate on teaching directly from the Bible rather than using lots of devotionals.  I believe this teaches the full and true character of God and helps avoid dogmatic and possibly faulty interpretations. This is my plan, though tools can be helpful. :)

 

We deliberately teach (or plan to teach) critical thinking skills and logic. Me too!

 

This book by Ray Comfort might be helpful for you.  I'd be happy to send you a copy if you'd like; just PM me.  I already have it. Thanks. I read it about a year ago and need to read it again. I'm reading Shepherding A Child's Heart right now.

 

[Alice]

We teach them what we believe, and yes, we teach it to be truth. Because we believe it to be true. 

 

I think the difference between that and "brainwashing" is that we also allow and encourage questions. I'm not afraid to tell them "I don't know" or to share the things about my faith that I struggle with. I'm ok with them questioning and wondering and want them to do that. I don't think their faith will truly be their own until they've wrestled with it a bit. I also think it's different because we are very clear that nothing could separate them from our love, or the love of God. If they don't believe what we do, if they choose very different paths, if they end up in very different places, they know that we love them and that we will always love them. We might disagree with them, but we still love them. 

[HRAAB]

Not all other "committed Christians" teach the bolded and I would say most actually don't (for example, Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic do not teach this, from what I understand, and that's probably a goodly lot more than half the Christians in the world). It's dangerous to make a general statement as to what "committed Christians" would and wouldn't do/teach.

 

 

You're correct; I shouldn't have made that statement.  I was thinking primarily of Evangelicals when I wrote that.  This is also where we get into the 'they're not real Christians' discussion.  I was Catholic for most of my life, yet I knew Catholics who had a very rigid interpretation about salvation and believed that non-Christians would not be saved - the only way to heaven was by believing in Jesus, salvation through grace by faith in Jesus.  I was always taught and believed that without Christ there was no hope of heaven.  That didn't mean non-Christians can't go to heaven, but that Christ is the only way.  All of us considered ourselves faithful Catholics but somehow arrived at different conclusions regarding salvation.  The differences sound slight but are actually monumental.

 

Sorry for derailing the thread.

 

eta:  Now I've probably lumped all Evangelicals together and someone will call me out on that.  I'm sorry if I misrepresented your beliefs.

[HRAAB]

All of the ELCA Lutheran or Episcopal church I've ever attended have been very clear about it. It could vary by region, though. I would imagine that there are Presbyterian and Methodist churches with this belief.

 

Thank you.  I really didn't know that.  I'm curious now but will save those questions for another time.

[Scarlett]

I don't see that as brainwashing at all.  I think it's natural and common and even expected that parents will teach their children what they believe. 

 

Where I take issue is when people refuse to expose their children to other belief systems.  I'm not saying they need to encourage them to practice those other belief systems, or religions.  That would be unusual.  Where I bristle is when people don't even expose their kids to other religions (since we are talking about religion here, I'll keep it on topic) from even an educational standpoint.  So, we are Christian and here's what we believe to be Truth.  There are other Christians who believe X.  There are even many, many more religions, and here's what they believe.

That makes it sound as if I think every parent should have a formal Religions of the World class for their kids. I don't.  What I do find important is to find ways to weave that exposure into normal life, and to attempt to do so from a factual standpoint and not one of disdain or threats or one that imposes automatic bias and negative implication.  In my opinion, that allows kids to see what else is out there and perhaps decide for themselves what they believe, while still being taught that what your family believes is what is right.

 

Does that make any sense at all?

 

 

Yes.  I agree with that.  Isolation is not the answer.  That generally breeds rebellion in a great number of people.  

[SoCalLynn]

I haven't read any of the responses. We are Christians who practice our faith in our home, in our work and hopefully are people that can see that we live what we believe by the way we treat others. We always pray that we want to bring honor to God and be a blessing to those around us, being light in the world. This is how we have brought up our children. We cannot *make* them continue on this path, however, when they become adults. We can continue to pray for them, and pray that the way they have been taught seems truthful to them and they will make a personal choice to follow Jesus. This doesn't seem any different to me from how any parents of any religion/non-religious belief raise their children.

[HS Mom in NC]

I am not really sure how to answer you.  If you have a belief and that belief is strong why wouldn't you want to pass that on to your children? 

 

Because some of us believe that parents "passing faith on" to children isn't true, genuine faith.  If you've read the other thread this one is in response to,       http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/519651-for-christians-with-grown-children/              you'll see that many of us believe that faith comes from transformation by the Holy Spirit and any other means of belief or faith (tradition, intellectualism, custom, culture, etc.) is false.  So, the question for people like us is, what do you do with your kids when it comes to your faith?

 

All I can do is live it out the best I can and pray for their salvation.  We read the Bible here, they attend church with me until their teens and then they can choose to go or not.  I don't see any Biblical evidence that making someone go to church who doesn't want to be there has any spiritual benefit or honors God in any way. I don't go when my attitude about it bad. What's the point? Yes, I tell them what I believe is true and I also tell them that their spiritual life cannot by lived by anyone else.

 

Being a Classical Trivium Homeschooler I have no problem teaching my children the basics about other regions from the mouths of those who hold those beliefs.  When we get to the lives of those who are major players in world religions (when reading SOTW) we read up on them from age appropriate books from the library.   Everyone who considers themselves educated should be able to put together (when applicable) the name of the religion, it's sacred text, it's main prophets/leader/teachers, the name of its deity or higher power, its country of origin, it's notable restrictions, its identifying features, and its basic tenants. I don't think it should be in depth, but people shouldn't be ignorant of the world around them.  We compare and contrast to Christianity each religion. Yes, I say to my child, "I don't believe this other is true, but you should have some idea of what others believe is true so you can have an intelligent interaction with them when you meet them."

 

I wouldn't want my child to offer a practicing Jew or a Muslim food the violates their convictions.   I wouldn't want my child to be stunned and shocked and bewildered if someone invited them over and there was incense burning next to a Buddha image.  If my adult children invite a Hindu over for dinner, I want them to know to provide plenty of vegetarian dishes out of politeness.  As an adult I've been in all of those situations and there's no need to cause offense or awkwardness by being ignorant or insensitive to other people's convictions. If I don't understand the basics, I just might unintentionally and unnecessarily  offend.  How can I minister to them if I do? When we can establish a respectful attitude, then we can have an environment for exchanging ideas and I can be ready to give an answer for the hope that I have in Jesus Christ if they ask me about it or when they want to talk about religious things. I have freedom of religion and individuality, so I never have to adopt the idea that all spiritual ideas are equally valid, that there are no absolutes, etc. nor do I have to compromise on my convictions and decide truth is what each individual decides it is. At the same time, they don't have to accept mine-that includes my kids.

[sassenach]

I'm a Christian  :ohmy:. I obviously have a desire to raise my children in a way that they come to know the Lord. I will teach them the Bible, use Christian curriculum, take them to church and pray with and for them. But I know so many people that essentially force and brainwash their kids into believing what they believe and acting the way they want them to act. Not good. Not good for the kids, not good for the parents and in no way does this honor the Lord, the one this is all supposed to be about.

 

I wasn't raised Christian. My mom was an addict and my dad was gone being an addict somewhere else. I'm only now learning what it means to be a parent and to love someone and put their needs first. So, learning how to be a christian parent is just another heap on top of what I don't already know.

 

I will teach my kids about evolution, other religions, and things of that nature so they can see the world for what it is. They already see us engaging with JWs and Mormons (no offence meant, we just have large theological differences).

 

So, what do you do, as a christian to raise your child in the Lord? What did you do right? What do you regret?

 

Thanks,

 

Rachel

 

ETA: This is sort of a shout out (or whatever s/o stands for) of ?'s for christians with adult children. Just a more concentrated question.

Hi Rachel,

 

I have a book recommendation for you- http://www.amazon.com/Building-Christian-Family-You-Never/dp/1400070317

 

I'm not sure that you're phrasing it the way I would, but I think the heart of what you're asking is how does one parent as a Christian without fear being the primary vehicle?

 

I think the answer to that is by allowing the Lord to lead you rather than fear.  It's going to look different in every family, and none of us are going to do it all quite right, but I do think that it can be done through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

Best wishes,

[Pronghorn]

One thing I do is cheerfully accept my child's doubts. I tell her that having doubts is completely normal and that God understands. I tell her that she can pray about her doubts. I acknowledge the difficulties in some Bible passages.

[Guest]

I might chime in with a more thoughtful answer later on, but here is a quick swat at what we did or what I wish we had done, and what my parents did (more or less).

 

Walk it more than you talk it.

Talk to God about your kid more than you talk to your kid about God.

The only one you have any *control* over regarding a relationship with God is your own personal self--and in my case "control" is a really dubious word. 

Listen to your kid and don't take questioning personally.  This is harder in some faiths than in others because so much is left up to person interpretation, so it *does* become a defense of personal belief.  But when the questions are about what has been taught since the beginning of the faith, it is not personal...it's just questions.  

 

Love is the trump card.  

 

Please note that most of these things I am learning or have learned the hard way.  

 

 

 

[fairfarmhand]

haven't read anything but the OP.

 

Mostly, I'd say don't be afraid to answer questions. Don't gloss over the hard questions or get offended when a child is wondering out loud. Usually, kids come around even when they go through a time of doubt.

 

Be real, genuine and honest about your failings. 

[Slache]

Because some of us believe that parents "passing faith on" to children isn't true, genuine faith.  If you've read the other thread this one is in response to,       http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/519651-for-christians-with-grown-children/              you'll see that many of us believe that faith comes from transformation by the Holy Spirit and any other means of belief or faith (tradition, intellectualism, custom, culture, etc.) is false.  So, the question for people like us is, what do you do with your kids when it comes to your faith? Thanks. That's exactly what I meant.

 

All I can do is live it out the best I can and pray for their salvation.  We read the Bible here, they attend church with me until their teens and then they can choose to go or not.  I don't see any Biblical evidence that making someone go to church who doesn't want to be there has any spiritual benefit or honors God in any way. I don't go when my attitude about it bad. What's the point? Yes, I tell them what I believe is true and I also tell them that their spiritual life cannot by lived by anyone else. Thank you for this. This is not normal in my circles. I go to a Baptist church and the general plan seems to be 1. Pressure them into accepting Christ in kindergarten, 2. Make sure they rededicate their lives to God every year at VBS, 3. Tell them they're bad Christians when they sin and insist they repent (rather than allow the Holy Spirit to convict), and 4. Wonder where you went wrong when they turn 16 and walk away from "their" faith. It was this particular pattern that caused us to leave a church when the pastor insisted we do what the church does (age segregated Sunday School with alter calls, church school, and VBS) and felt that we were raising our children wrong. We were very involved in the church, don't get me wrong, but we found the general parenting and childcare giving very upsetting.

 

Being a Classical Trivium Homeschooler I have no problem teaching my children the basics about other regions from the mouths of those who hold those beliefs.  When we get to the lives of those who are major players in world religions (when reading SOTW) we read up on them from age appropriate books from the library.   Everyone who considers themselves educated should be able to put together (when applicable) the name of the religion, it's sacred text, it's main prophets/leader/teachers, the name of its deity or higher power, its country of origin, it's notable restrictions, its identifying features, and its basic tenants. I don't think it should be in depth, but people shouldn't be ignorant of the world around them.  We compare and contrast to Christianity each religion. Yes, I say to my child, "I don't believe this other is true, but you should have some idea of what others believe is true so you can have an intelligent interaction with them when you meet them."

 

I wouldn't want my child to offer a practicing Jew or a Muslim food the violates their convictions.   I wouldn't want my child to be stunned and shocked and bewildered if someone invited them over and there was incense burning next to a Buddha image.  If my adult children invite a Hindu over for dinner, I want them to know to provide plenty of vegetarian dishes out of politeness.  As an adult I've been in all of those situations and there's no need to cause offense or awkwardness by being ignorant or insensitive to other people's convictions. If I don't understand the basics, I just might unintentionally and unnecessarily  offend.  How can I minister to them if I do? When we can establish a respectful attitude, then we can have an environment for exchanging ideas and I can be ready to give an answer for the hope that I have in Jesus Christ if they ask me about it or when they want to talk about religious things. I have freedom of religion and individuality, so I never have to adopt the idea that all spiritual ideas are equally valid, that there are no absolutes, etc. nor do I have to compromise on my convictions and decide truth is what each individual decides it is. At the same time, they don't have to accept mine-that includes my kids.

 

The last two paragraphs are also what I'm worried about. I'm from the bay area and I consider myself knowledgeable when it comes to cultural diversity. I want that for my children. I'm tired of "Christians" who disrespect certain people groups and completely justify it to themselves. I knew a woman who wanted to dispan our Spanish Ministry because the people coming were illegals and didn't speak English. She literally hated an entire people group. And then you have a website called G*d hates f*gs. When I tell people I'm a Christian that's what they think. It's so sad. Thank you for taking the time to write that out. It was enlightening.

[Ellie]

I'm a Christian  :ohmy:. I obviously have a desire to raise my children in a way that they come to know the Lord. I will teach them the Bible, use Christian curriculum, take them to church and pray with and for them. But I know so many people that essentially force and brainwash their kids into believing what they believe and acting the way they want them to act. Not good. Not good for the kids, not good for the parents and in no way does this honor the Lord, the one this is all supposed to be about.

 

I wasn't raised Christian. My mom was an addict and my dad was gone being an addict somewhere else. I'm only now learning what it means to be a parent and to love someone and put their needs first. So, learning how to be a christian parent is just another heap on top of what I don't already know.

 

I will teach my kids about evolution, other religions, and things of that nature so they can see the world for what it is. They already see us engaging with JWs and Mormons (no offence meant, we just have large theological differences).

 

So, what do you do, as a christian to raise your child in the Lord? What did you do right? What do you regret?

 

Thanks,

 

Rachel

 

ETA: This is sort of a shout out (or whatever s/o stands for) of ?'s for christians with adult children. Just a more concentrated question.

 

"s/o" is "spin off." :-)

 

I don't know what the difference would be between teaching our children when we rise up and when we lie down and when we walk on the road (Deuteronomy) and "brainwashing."

 

As a Christian, I feel no compulsion to teach my children about other religions, except to talk about how not everyone believes as we do, and that we pray for them.

 

I have no regrets with the way I brought up my children. It is not that I think I am perfect; it is that I think I did the best that I could and am content with that. Mr. Ellie and I went to church with our children from the time they were little bitty; we talked to them about Jesus, and God's love for them, and we tried to speak charitably about other people. We tried to be good role models, both as Christians and as parents.

 

[Ellie]

You're correct; I shouldn't have made that statement.  I was thinking primarily of Evangelicals when I wrote that. 

 

eta:  Now I've probably lumped all Evangelicals together and someone will call me out on that.  I'm sorry if I misrepresented your beliefs.

 

How do you differentiate between "Evangelicals" and, well, other non-Catholic Christians? I thought all Christians were supposed to be "evangelical." :-)

[Slache]

How do you differentiate between "Evangelicals" and, well, other non-Catholic Christians? I thought all Christians were supposed to be "evangelical." :-)

 

This could get very complicated...

[HRAAB]

How do you differentiate between "Evangelicals" and, well, other non-Catholic Christians? I thought all Christians were supposed to be "evangelical." :-)

 

I think you know what I mean: evangelicals, fundamentalists, born again, Bible believing - Biblical literalists.  Not your everyday Episcopal.  

 

Oops.  Hit enter too soon.

[albeto.]

We deliberately teach (or plan to teach) critical thinking skills and logic. Me too!

 

I think of brainwashing on a spectrum. "Brainwashing" is like "legalism," it's a descriptive word used to reflect a more intense application of a methodology than the one referenced, one that cannot be justified by the one doing the referencing. So for example, people who teach that to reject Christ is to reject Salvation, that to not be a believing Christian is to spend an eternity in Hell, that to believe in him is to respond in particular ways, is often considered "legalistic" from the viewpoint of those who teach that to reject Christ is to reject the formal teachings, that Christ is present in whatever belief, so long as one is true to what is right and wrong. Both ideas are biblical, btw, which is what makes it so difficult to hear as well as defend the accusation of being legalistic. 

 

I think "brainwashing" is the same deal.

 

Parents know how to manipulate our children. Conveniently, most children are easily manipulated. I don't say this as a bad thing, but a neutral thing. We simply do, we're wired to do so, I think, and children are certainly wired to conform to the desires of those who care for and nurture them. So it's a natural tool we use. We manipulate our toddlers to brush their teeth by making it a fun experience with Mom and/or Dad, so they'll want to carry on the habit (one we've manipulated for them, as brushing teeth isn't instinctual). We manipulate our kids to finish their schoolwork when they're frustrated, by such means as encouragement, bribery, or threats of loss of privileges. We do these things with good intent, I think. After all, no parent wants to neglect their child's health or education just because the child doesn't want to comply. We know what's good for them, so we rationalize. And I don't mean that as a bad thing, just as a matter of fact thing. 

 

Teaching religious beliefs fit along this kind of spectrum of behavior as well, I think. There are those who do inspire greater fear of rejection of the faith, and whether that's inspired by fear of loss of control or a positive belief that they know what's good for their child, is really a guess best made by a student of human behavior. Ultimately, I don't think you're really interested in that kind of detail, but how to avoid the extremes that would make you uncomfortable if it was used in a different situation. 

 

Here's the challenge, as I see it. You, like me, like all of us, are products of our culture. As anthropologist Dr. David Eller argues, our culturally inherited beliefs are what we use to see with. We don’t see culture. We see with culture. If you want to teach your children how to think critically, I maintain you need to include this in the process. I think if you don't, you don't necessarily contribute to brainwashing your children, but you do contribute to neglecting an important element in critical thinking - critically thinking about what they believe, critically thinking about the undercurrents present in their culture. 

 

So how can you do this? I suggest using what John W. Loftus explains as "the outsider test for faith." Essentially, it is to apply the same critical thinking skills to your own beliefs that you do when rejecting other beliefs. When applied to religion, you would start by using only objective information as legitimate defenses for the faith. For example, when you read the conversion stories of Muslims who came from a Christian faith background or culture, you would likely reject the personal testimony they share because those are opinions, not facts. You would reject the texts that the faith relies on because a text claiming to true doesn't make it so. You would reject the appeal to tradition, the idea that "everybody knows," "everybody has always known" found in your own culture because you reject that as evidence when applied to other religions. The idea that most people embrace the religion to which they were born is an indication of the cultural indoctrination and assumption of that religion being a reliable source for explaining, understanding, and navigating the world. If you want to teach your children to think critically, you would apply the same skepticism of other beliefs to the belief of your own faith as you do to others. 

 

Michael Shermer has done an extensive study of why people believe what they believe. He argues: “Most of us most of the time come to our beliefs for a variety of reasons having little to do with empirical evidence and logical reasoning. Rather, such variables as genetic predispositions, parental predilections, sibling influences, peer pressures, educational experiences, and life impressions all shape the personality preferences and emotional inclinations that, in conjunction with numerous social and cultural influences, lead us to make certain belief choices. Rarely do any of us sit down before a table of facts, weigh them pro and con, and choose the most logical and rational belief, regardless of what we previously believed. Instead, the facts of the world come to us through the colored filters of the theories, hypotheses, hunches, biases, and prejudices we have accumulated through our lifetime. We then sort through the body of data and select those most confirming what we already believe, and ignore or rationalize away those that are disconfirming. All of us do this, of course, but smart people are better at it.â€

 

I suggest that if you want to avoid brainwashing with regard to religion (or more accurately, avoid allowing the culture in which your children live brainwash them), you would know how to critically think about your own beliefs, and encourage them to do the same. Your kids are young, they'll see the illogical answers you've been conditioned to either believe or ignore. Let them. Encourage them. Ask them why they think that. Help them develop a critical thinking process that relies on objective information rather than personal opinion, and learn the difference yourself. It can be tricky when you've been taught to accept personal opinion (faith) to be applied as objective fact (evidence). Basically, any time you have to refer to faith as an answer, be skeptical, think critically. 

 

This link decidedly atheist, to be sure. But don't let that throw you off. If your faith has merit, it will withstand the challenge of critical skepticism. In other words, if your faith is "true," it will not be harmed by this application of objective, critical analysis. 

[Rosie_0801]

OP, perhaps take a little time to consider how non-Christians can be spiritually healthy (though that won't work if you don't think they can be.) I assume for most people, spiritual health is more important than spiritual correctness, if push comes to shove.

[albeto.]

Love is the trump card.  

 

 

This is the kind of thing that I mean when applying objective skepticism to the mix. What does this mean? I mean, objectively, factually, what does "love is the trump card" mean? Can you clarify this in an objective way? I ask because otherwise it sounds like you're saying, "faith is real because I have faith it's real." Which is fine, but from the outside sounds very much like a brainwashed kind of answer.