Help me flesh this out. Rocket team parent issues.

[FaithManor]

Well, it's a student/parent issue.

 

One of the boys on the team, who really contributes a lot because he likes this extracurricular, does not keep his nose clean at school. He attends a private school and well, he doesn't like to turn in homework, procrastinates on projects and constantly turns them in late, and likes to generally just be a snot to the faculty though he isn't nasty to the other students. As a result, in the last quarter, he racked up enough after school detention time that they are restricting the number of days he can miss school in the last quarter and not be suspended or even expelled. Thus, while we are leaving on Wednesday the 7th, he can't leave until Friday morning the 9th which means his parents must drive or fly him out or he will miss the Finals.

 

The team begins actively fundraising this week. Even though this boy will not be with us the first two days, his absence does not lower the cost of the hotels, the number of vehicles we take, nor the tolls for said vehicles. So, our take is that if he wants to participate, he must be active in the fundraising process to help send the team. This is a TEAM event. His parents don't want to lift a finger to help because they will have to bring him separately - our benefit dinner is a week from this evening and they are claiming they are not participating because it "doesn't benefit our son". (Never mind that dh and I fund the team's expenses every single year to the tune of $600 - 750.00 out of our own pocket. Apparently, they feel NO responsibility to help us, and we are cooking for this entire thing. They were supposed to be on the clean up crew and bring brownies and lemonade.)

 

Background history, the big problem with this kid is his parents indulge him in EVERYTHING and think he should always be the exception to every rule. He's been suspended from school three times in the past three years for stretches of 3 days - 2 weeks depending on how upset the principal is with him. The parents defend him in everything. The boy does well for us because he is not innately lazy, mean, or rebellious; he just simply is rather impulsive, immature for his age, and overindulged - he is 15 and his mother still cuts his meat, zips his coats (I've personally seen her chase him down to get him to put his coat on so they can leave a 4-H meeting, etc.). He does fine when we have him because the boundaries are clear and we enforce them big time, no nonsense. He doesn't mess with us.

 

I feel that he has to participate in fundraising or he doesn't go and if they do choose to waste their money to bring him, he's benched. No access to competition or the restricted area for teams, no ice cream social, no sight seeing,  no awards banquet, no traveling with the team, and if they should perchance win the competition, no England since they did not want to help his team members get to D.C. in the first place. I feel strongly on that because he would be rewarded for NOT finishing the team year by getting an all expense paid trip to Farnsborough by Raytheon. It seems really wrong to allow him a pass on this and especially since it negatively impacts the team. it was entirely his own fault for what amounts to pretty much being a little weasel at school.

 

Our program director says we can do whatever we think is best and she'll support us.

 

If your child were in a brick and mortar school, participated in an extracurricular not connected to the school in which the team would be traveling to a championship type thing, and got in trouble at school such that he/she would miss out on part of or even maybe all of the event, would you have an expectation that you should not have responsibility to finish the year including fundraising though the team is not at fault for what happened? She also thinks he should be allowed to come, but shouldn't have to attend any more practice launches or meetings because he has so much homework to make up. I think, "Too bad. So sad. Consequences of actions. Live and learn." and that if his workload is so great he can't keep up with the practice launches, then he definitely should not be eligible to go at all.

 

This is not a JAWM thread. I want to hear your opinions of what you think leadership should do in this case. We might be willing to change our minds, however, I have to say it's a low might. He has put himself in a very bad position, and I think he and his parents need to figure out how to dig their way out of it.  I think we should not allow this to negatively impact the rest of the team. Yet, I also understand that part of life is dealing with team situations and group projects in which someone screws up and doesn't do what they are supposed to do and someone else is impacted or the rest have to pick up the slack. So, no matter what, it is a learning experience for everyone. I do understand that he has a boatload of school work to do now, and two projects to finish that should have been done three weeks ago. Maybe he can't sacrifice any time for launches, practicing presentations, or fundraising. But, I really don't see that it's then appropriate to simply let him "have his cake and eat it too" so to speak. Our response would be entirely different if he had fallen ill or been injured, had to travel to a family funeral, etc. Those are emergency situations not caused by poor choices and mercy should rule the day in these cases. However, he made conscious decisions that got him into this sticky wicket.

 

Yes, Dh and I are prepared to not allow him to return to the team next year if he doesn't pull his act together. Really, if his parents did not indulge his every whim and defend all of his immaturity, this kid would probably be fine.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[Lolly]

I think it doesn't sound like he is a part of the team at this point and would just cut him loose right now. He can't do the practices. He isn't willing to do the fundraising (I agree as a team member he should participate). He would basically just be stepping up at the end to accept the awards. I have no idea what types of fees are required up to this point. You might have an issue there if you x him right now? But, if he hasn't done anything and isn't wiling to do anything, why should he get to eat the bread?

[Plink]

Team events are not optional. Choosing to not participate is choosing to remove oneself from the team. Would you allow a lactose intolerant kid to not fundraise because he wouldn't be able to participate in the ice-cream social?

[sassenach]

You are 100% right. Do not give them a pass. I would also let them know that if they don't fully participate, he won't be invited back to the team. The family sounds like a piece of work. They're crippling their son.

[Liz CA]

Sounds like this young man does not get a lot of freedom to make age appropriate decisions and when he has some freedom (at school) he makes the "wrong" decision or it could be a bit of rebellion against all this shoe tying and coat zipping by the parents.

Have you sat him down (just him) and laid it all out for him and told him that you guys are in a tough position and what does he think would be the fair/best thing for the team/ to do? Once he is forced to think about it (without his parents coaching and enabling), he may come to a different conclusion.

[TeacherZee]

I teach at a high school in another country where we have very little recourse when students misbehave. I had to call the parents of one little snowflake last week and tell them that their little darling is running the very real risk of not passing the year since she has an excused absence level of almost 80%. The parents had the temerity to sound shocked. What did they think would happen when she has those absence levels?!

 

This to say that I think that if the boy does not help in the preparations (fundraising) or in the practices when at the competitions then he should not get to go. Yes school is important and maybe at this point in life he needs to focus on only school.

[MysteryJen]

This is a team. If he wants to be part of it, he must do the practices and fundraisers. It is too bad he has to come late, but that is on him.  If it was a sports team, no question, the kid would be benched.

 

You are absolutely right. Good luck in dealing with that family.

[bettyandbob]

I know how you feel. BTDT as a parent organizer.

 

The parent is controlling the child's participation, so does it make sense to punish the child? Is there a way around that issue. I think I'd try to find a way around that issue to allow the child to finish the year.

 

ETA: I wouldn't allow him on the team next year.

 

 

[Dmmetler]

I would say that he either needs to fundraise or, if he cannot participate due to school obligations, his parents need to buy out his share of the expenses. And when you're on a team going to national level competition, practices are a non-negotiable.

 

I'd also give serious thought to requiring a report card review for team members and not allowing those who are not in good standing with their school to participate or to participate in a more limited sense.  That's what DD's cheer team does-and the primary reason is that the competition season falls right at finals for many of the high school aged girls-and if a kid really, really needs to focus on studying for finals so she gets credit for a class at all, the coach needs to know so she can NOT work her stunts around the kid who can't afford to spend the time for extra practice. For homeschoolers, that can simply be a statement from the parents. I can understand waiving such requirements for kids who struggle academically and are really benefiting from an activity, but for a kid who's problem is his big mouth, I think a requirement that he NOT get so many suspensions that he's not allowed to travel with the team is a reasonable expectation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Truscifi]

I would not cut him loose without giving him another chance, but *would* make it clear to him that being part of the team means participating in all the team events. I would probably talk to the kid first if possible, then with the parents and kid together. If they are not willing to do so, they are choosing not to be part of the team. I might be willing to cut the kid some slack if he comes to the dinner to help out even if his parents refuse, but he has to come to practices as well.

[MomtoCandJ]

If he can't/ won't do the work then he shouldn't be allowed to do the fun.

[tabinfl]

During my high school years, a group of marching band members did a Bad Thing after a football game against our crosstown rivals. I was one of the participants.

 

Among other consequences for those of us directly involved, the entire band's big trip to play at Disney World was cancelled. The band director caught a lot of flak for that decision, but stuck to his guns. Many other band members were peripherally involved, egging on the perpetrators and/or covering up afterwards.

 

It was unpleasant, to say the least, but it taught me a valuable lesson about responsibility for my actions that has served me well ever since. Today I'm grateful that I got to learn that lesson in such a (relatively) gentle way back then.

 

Your team has set costs for the competition. It is the entire team's responsibility to cover that cost. If a member is ill or has other circumastances beyond his/her control, that might be the time to make an exception. When it's his own poor choices and behavior that have caused the problem, your response is abaolutely appropriate.

 

You have an opportunity to impress upon this young man, even (especially?) if his parents don't, that his choices have consequences. It's sad that his parents aren't supporting you in this, but your actions at this point will speak volumes not only to him but to the rest of the team (what are you telling them if this kid's bad behavior is, in effect, rewarded?).

[ElizabethB]

I would make a short letter with what you said above about costs affecting everything add something about teamwork and have a final statement that if he does not participle, he cannot attend, leave spaces to have him and both of his parents sign it.

[FaithManor]

Thanks everyone. I never thought about the option of allowing his parents to simply contribute X dollars to the fundraising campaign. Hmmm....each student needs $242.00 to cover the cost of hotels, gas, and tolls plus they need to provide their own food money though the hotel has a decent breakfast for free, and on competition day, all meals are provided for the team by AIA - the sponsoring organization. So, the meal money isn't a huge expense.

 

But, I do think we are right that if he's not attending the rest of the meetings, practice launches, presentations (we have one coming up at GM and because he can't leave school early due to his choices, he cannot attend that either), nor are his parents even willing for him to assist with writing thank you notes to the sponsors because "it doesn't benefit him", then he's not acting as a team member and this is a team event. Thus, out of luck little man, make better choices next time.

 

I do think it's going to be a bit tense with the parents so I think Dh and I need to draw our lines in the sand in a meeting that includes our 4-H program director who will reiterate that 4-H council who has ultimate control, backs us up 100%.

 

I appreciate the wisdom here.

[bolt.]

 

 

This is a TEAM event. His parents don't want to lift a finger to help because they will have to bring him separately - our benefit dinner is a week from this evening and they are claiming they are not participating because it "doesn't benefit our son". (Never mind that dh and I fund the team's expenses every single year to the tune of $600 - 750.00 out of our own pocket. Apparently, they feel NO responsibility to help us...

I would tell the PARTICIPANT all the things *he* has to do to be included in these events.

 

I would not tell the PARENTS anything.

 

Parents who are outlaying money have something of a legitimate perspective on not *additionally* outlaying time and effort to enable this trip. Perhaps if they were of a more generous spirit, they would do both -- it would certainly be the best thing for them to do. But I don't think KIDS activities should revolve around PARENTS willingness to do the adult jobs that facilitate what the KIDS do.

 

When ADULTS run fundraisers, it is usually to lower their own financial outlay (the costs of the trip that would otherwise fall on their shoulders) because the teens are very rarely funding their own trips with their own finances. That's why ADULTS are usually willing to play large support roles. If that motive is removed, it makes sense that you loose out on a willing ADULT, if those adults are concretely logical an not terribly altruistic.

 

Loosing out on a willing ADULT (or two) should not matter in the way you treat a PARTICIPANT. If the PARTICIPANT pulls his own weight in fundraising (equivalent to the individual personal effort put in by the other PARTICIPANTS)... he should not be personally penalized for not being able to do a "family's worth" of work.

 

Therefore, set him standards and give him tasks that he can personally attain without parental assistance -- not a "family's worth" -- a fair amount appropriate to his orphaned-effort. Perhaps assist him in ways like offering to drive him to/from fundraising events or other kinds of help for him to overcome his lack of parental enthusiasm and give his own efforts at a full measure. (Imagine that his parents have gone on an extended Hawaiian vacation, so all he can do is just that -- all HE can do.)

 

If he gives his own efforts at a full measure, that's enough for him to be a full participant, I think.

 

If he drops the ball on his own efforts, your plan stands... so do be super-clear up front.

[FaithManor]

I would tell the PARTICIPANT all the things *he* has to do to be included in these events.

 

I would not tell the PARENTS anything.

 

Parents who are outlaying money have something of a legitimate perspective on not *additionally* outlaying time and effort to enable this trip. Perhaps if they were of a more generous spirit, they would do both -- it would certainly be the best thing for them to do. But I don't think KIDS activities should revolve around PARENTS willingness to do the adult jobs that facilitate what the KIDS do.

 

When ADULTS run fundraisers, it is usually to lower their own financial outlay (the costs of the trip that would otherwise fall on their shoulders) because the teens are very rarely funding their own trips with their own finances. That's why ADULTS are usually willing to play large support roles. If that motive is removed, it makes sense that you loose out on a willing ADULT, if those adults are concretely logical an not terribly altruistic.

 

Loosing out on a willing ADULT (or two) should not matter in the way you treat a PARTICIPANT. If the PARTICIPANT pulls his own weight in fundraising (equivalent to the individual personal effort put in by the other PARTICIPANTS)... he should not be personally penalized for not being able to do a "family's worth" of work.

 

Therefore, set him standards and give him tasks that he can personally attain without parental assistance -- not a "family's worth" -- a fair amount appropriate to his orphaned-effort. Perhaps assist him in ways like offering to drive him to/from fundraising events or other kinds of help for him to overcome his lack of parental enthusiasm and give his own efforts at a full measure. (Imagine that his parents have gone on an extended Hawaiian vacation, so all he can do is just that -- all HE can do.)

 

If he gives his own efforts at a full measure, that's enough for him to be a full participant, I think.

 

If he drops the ball on his own efforts, your plan stands... so do be super-clear up front.

I understand that. I do. But, do to his choices which result in him wallowing in a mound of schoolwork, they are not willing to have anyone pick him up for fundraisers, they are not willing to allow anyone to HELP him participate in practice launches, they are not willing to let him do anything EXCEPT show up to compete and take whatever accolades the team may earn. That's my huge problem. He is 15, and no one else can simply show up and announce that they are there to pick him up for x,y,z. The parents have the say in it, and they are cutting him off from team participation in ANYTHING to this point and then want to show up on the 10th to compete.

 

I can assign him his duly allotted tasks all the live long day. He won't be doing them and that is a line THEY drew in the sand. As adults who ultimately still have control over him, I can't choose anything different for him, but I do have to choose on behalf of the team, what is appropriate for the team.

 

She showed up unannounced at the last build meeting (Saturday) and grabbed him to go work on one of his school projects. This left another team member to finish his portion of the payload section, and since we needed more team photos for the newspaper, he missed out on that too. She's having a hissy fit because his picture won't be in the paper with the rest of the team. I'm not certain how she thinks this is our problem.

 

But, yah...I get that fundraisers benefit the parent who then doesn't have to pay as much. However, these obligations were made known at the beginning of the year and since he's not old enough to drive, nor independently owns a car apart from his parents even if he was old enough, ultimately, they do have to provide transportation. However, I am considering the option of just letting them pay their share. Hey, if they don't want to fundraise, then pay his share in full. However, even if they do that, I don't think we can allow him to continue because he is NOT going to participate in anything else since he apparently cannot sacrifice the time because of his school situation which we do believe falls squarely on his shoulders and is his parents' problem, not the team's.

 

Thanks though...I can understand what you mean about the fundraising aspect.

[zoobie]

What do the other team members think? Would they vote on allowing him to complete 50% of the remaining practices and stay on the team?

 

If they are willing to do that and pay their share of fundraising, I'd let him stay because if this sounds like the one thing that is going well for him at the moment. Yes, it's his fault that he's in this position, but maybe there's a learning experience in some grace from friends *with boundaries*.

 

Put whatever you decide in writing and CC: the leadership. Then it's up to his parents, who sound...interesting...

[Haiku]

A team is a team. You work for the good of the team, not just for yourself. If he only cares about working for himself, he's not a member of the team.

[Leav97]

I would separate out the team activities and the fundraising.  

 

If he can't participate in team activities, then he is off the team.  75%, 90%, 100% you need to decide on an acceptable level of participation.

 

If he can't participate in fundraising, then his parents need to cover his portion.  

[Seasider]

I have a son that plays a varsity sport with an area high school. Every player is subject to the rules set forth in the (state name) high school athletic association. The guidelines for student participation in a game require certain levels of school attendance, grade maintenance, health forms, etc. These are non arbitrary requirements set forth by the state athletic association. They also apply to fine arts competitions. Look up the site and requirements for your state (MHSAA). If these seem suitable perhaps you can use them as a fair standard for participating. May not help this year, but at least in the future these could be set forth as fair and reasonable standards.

 

Not sure what you can do about the spring season and fundraiser. So hard when parents aren't willing to comply, but the kid doesn't seem to understand that his poor decisions in other areas do have an effect on the thing he enjoys. I always think long and hard when removing the one thing that fuels a kid's passion. But maybe in this case he will just have to suffer the consequences of non participation.

 

(Now I need to go back and reread your full post to make sure I understand the situation...)

[In The Great White North]

Does 4H not have policies about participation and competitions?  Are there no policies about qualifying for the championships (ie if he doesn't participate in the GM event, he can't go to DC)  Did you have a policy at the beginning of the year? (If you didn't, I would be writing one for next year.)  

 

I think I would cut him off now also.  He surely knew (or should have known) his school's policies.  He made the choices that resulted in the restrictions.  It's too late now.

 

It's a bummer that the rest of the team is adversely affected, but there's no way around it.  If you let him go to DC, without going to GM, practices, meetings and the fundraisers, others will try it next year.

[Seasider]

One question - is this kid taking a spot on your team that would go to another interested and RESPONSIBLE student if the first kid were dropped from the team? 'cause that would make it a no brainier for me.

 

And fundraising is a definite part of being on the team! Maybe you could offer a buyout (though that wouldn't teach the same work ethic).

[Um_2_4]

I was on several fiercely competitive teams in high school and just aside from the $$ issues (which if we didn't help fund raise, there was no trip for us), the no practices, etc would have gotten me off the team, except in an EXTREME reason (mother or father on death bed type of situation).

Your event sounds similar to mine.... large national competition, high profile, probably some scholarships, offers on internships along the way, right???...You don't get there riding coat tails. I worked hard for those. If another team member had done that and was allowed to go I would have been LIVID.

[Cera]

I would absolutely expect that he pulls his weight or is off the team.  He needs to be able to attend practices and meetings to stay on the team first and foremost.  If he has too much work for school to be able to be a contributing member of the team he needs to step down and focus on getting through the school year.  Maybe he can rejoin next year.  As far as fundraising, you are fundraising for team costs, not individual costs.  I would tell his family point blank that he needs to contribute x number of hours or x number of dollars if he wants to stay on the team.  If he doesn't want to do that he can step down and consider rejoining next year.  

 

Hopefully being strict with him will allow him to recognize his mistakes and avoid them next year.

[Miss Mousie]

I would separate out the team activities and the fundraising.  

 

If he can't participate in team activities, then he is off the team.  75%, 90%, 100% you need to decide on an acceptable level of participation.

 

If he can't participate in fundraising, then his parents need to cover his portion.  

 

I agree.  (I think.  :P)

 

The boy is 15 now - if he stops participating for this year, would he be eligible to participate next year?  I mean, do people "age out" at 16, 17, 18?  I'm not sure it matters, but I do feel (in a wishy-washy sort of way) that, if next year is a possibility, then I'd cut him now and hope he learns and matures by then (and his parents, too).  Then he will have another shot at "making it right" and earning his share of the spotlight at whatever levels the team achieves.  I guess it seems it would soften the blow and put the focus back on the boy taking responsibility for himself for the duration.

 

Back to the fundraising/participation split:  I'm inclined to ignore the fundraising issue entirely and focus only on the lack of participation.  Missing meetings/presentations etc. - and especially the thank you notes! - is enough to cut him from the team.

 

On the other hand, those expenses still need to be met.  Would it be possible to recalculate what each participant needs to contribute?  Are there enough participants that it would only amount to an extra $10 or so, or would it be an onerous amount added because there are only 5 or 10 kids?

 

Sigh.  No good deed, eh?  I hope the situation is resolved quickly in some acceptable manner, as peaceably as possible.

[FaithManor]

What do the other team members think? Would they vote on allowing him to complete 50% of the remaining practices and stay on the team?

 

If they are willing to do that and pay their share of fundraising, I'd let him stay because if this sounds like the one thing that is going well for him at the moment. Yes, it's his fault that he's in this position, but maybe there's a learning experience in some grace from friends *with boundaries*.

 

Put whatever you decide in writing and CC: the leadership. Then it's up to his parents, who sound...interesting...

I don't know for certain what the kids would say. At this point his parents are saying absolutely NO to any participation from this point forward and demanding that he still be allowed to go to the competition.

 

The whole thing is a mess really. One scenario that has run through my head is that IF he simply becomes a ghost and we say "NO, he can not compete. Don't bring him to D.C. because we aren't going to give him his credentials to get onto the field", then he may not choose to do any of the work required of him by the school and will simply get expelled. Again, not our problem, but I don't like to see teens in holes they have no incentive to get out of, yet, I can't stop that ship from sailing either. If his parents were even decent, "Mr. and Mrs. H. This is the situation. He made this for himself, but we need some assistance in helping him see his way out. IF he could manage his work and at least do X or Y for the team, could he still go so he has an incentive to work hard?", we'd definitely consider it. However, if you heard the tone of voice and the language used on us, you'd probably ALL be mad. These people believe their boy is the special, misunderstood, genius snowflake of the world and that NO rules should apply to him. So, this isn't a matter of them even attempting to work on the issue at hand with us. This is a "We demand X. You can not expect us or him to do ANYTHING. And you us do what we want because we are that special!" kind of thing.

 

I think ultimately, they also do not want him to get expelled from the private school, sensing that next year at the PS would be downright ugly for them. So, no matter what, they want him to get his projects turned in and his truckload of homework made up in the hopes of weaseling the administration into letting him stay though he has been on academic and disciplinary probation every year since 6th grade (which makes me think that if the parent is willing to pay tuition, they turn a real blind eye to things because I know of no other private school that allows a student to be on disciplinary probation for four straight years). Thus, the no participation in rocket team, and yet wanting to have all of the perks of being on the rocket team and this really is perk end of things. It is the reward for the hard work for and dedication for the teams that stuck it out. Of the original 707 teams that began the year, only 413 made it to the end, and of those, the top 100 proceed to Finals. It is the happy, happy fun fun that CAN happen for those lucky 100 teams. I really get that he doesn't want to miss out on that, and obviously, no one would want for their child to miss out on it. But, the fact remains there is a lot of work that has to happen in the 32 days and they are saying he will do NOTHING, and demanding we still let him go. I think that's the really problem I have...they won't even discuss a compromise. We are just simply to look the other way.

 

I think being sworn at when I was being VERY professional in my calm, politically correct teacher voice, put me over the edge. I handed the phone to Dh, and she went off on him. It's not helping me think about all sides of the problem equally! LOL, I'll give you that! My perspective is probably not the best at the moment.

[Seasider]

Oh, I would also would be training/preparing other team members to fill in the gap he will create in his absence (because I agree with others who have already said that at this point, he's not really even part of the team anymore due to lack of participation). One of the biggest lessons of group work, ime, is predicting the weak links and thinking ahead as to how to strengthen foreseeable gaps. Thinking steps ahead, contingency planning, is a great leadership skill to teach the kids that are faithful in their participation. It will be a good lesson to them not to focus on the problem, but to focus beyond that to actually mitigating the problem. Somehow I suspect you and your dh already teach them that in good measure! Unfortunately, in the real world, personnel gaps are just as likely to pop up as mechanical ones.

[catz]

I agree with you 105%. If the tone of the kid and parents were different, I would consider working with them. This sense of entitlement for a TEAM event is ridiculous. I would totally cut him loose. Any parent that takes the time to rant at a VOLUNTEER parent organizer needs can organize their own team next year for their special snowflake and his favorite minions.

[Lara in Colo]

I think that what everyone else has said is correct and a team member should do all the team things-- the good, the bad and the ugly parts.

 

That being said-- I also think this is an opportunity for the team to act like a team-- only in reverse thought.  You have the "one for all" attitiude down-- how about the "all for one"?    If you had a school football team going to nationals and the QB was having grade issues, wouldn't everyone pull together and help him study? This child seems to value this team.  Is there a way that you could get the team together and pressure him to behave?  To make it known that his life outside of the team also effects the team?  I don't have all the facts, but is there a way to "save the foot" instead of cutting it off?  I know this is hard and it is easier to drop the child,  (perhaps I am hormonal right now) but I feel for the boy who is drowning in poor parenting and needs someone to help him make good choices. 

[Seasider]

I don't know for certain what the kids would say. At this point his parents are saying absolutely NO to any participation from this point forward and demanding that he still be allowed to go to the competition.

 

The whole thing is a mess really. One scenario that has run through my head is that IF he simply becomes a ghost and we say "NO, he can not compete. Don't bring him to D.C. because we aren't going to give him his credentials to get onto the field", then he may not choose to do any of the work required of him by the school and will simply get expelled. Again, not our problem, but I don't like to see teens in holes they have no incentive to get out of, yet, I can't stop that ship from sailing either. If his parents were even decent, "Mr. and Mrs. H. This is the situation. He made this for himself, but we need some assistance in helping him see his way out. IF he could manage his work and at least do X or Y for the team, could he still go so he has an incentive to work hard?", we'd definitely consider it. However, if you heard the tone of voice and the language used on us, you'd probably ALL be mad. These people believe their boy is the special, misunderstood, genius snowflake of the world and that NO rules should apply to him. So, this isn't a matter of them even attempting to work on the issue at hand with us. This is a "We demand X. You can not expect us or him to do ANYTHING. And you us do what we want because we are that special!" kind of thing.

 

I think ultimately, they also do not want him to get expelled from the private school, sensing that next year at the PS would be downright ugly for them. So, no matter what, they want him to get his projects turned in and his truckload of homework made up in the hopes of weaseling the administration into letting him stay though he has been on academic and disciplinary probation every year since 6th grade (which makes me think that if the parent is willing to pay tuition, they turn a real blind eye to things because I know of no other private school that allows a student to be on disciplinary probation for four straight years). Thus, the no participation in rocket team, and yet wanting to have all of the perks of being on the rocket team and this really is perk end of things. It is the reward for the hard work for and dedication for the teams that stuck it out. Of the original 707 teams that began the year, only 413 made it to the end, and of those, the top 100 proceed to Finals. It is the happy, happy fun fun that CAN happen for those lucky 100 teams. I really get that he doesn't want to miss out on that, and obviously, no one would want for their child to miss out on it. But, the fact remains there is a lot of work that has to happen in the 32 days and they are saying he will do NOTHING, and demanding we still let him go. I think that's the really problem I have...they won't even discuss a compromise. We are just simply to look the other way.

 

I think being sworn at when I was being VERY professional in my calm, politically correct teacher voice, put me over the edge. I handed the phone to Dh, and she went off on him. It's not helping me think about all sides of the problem equally! LOL, I'll give you that! My perspective is probably not the best at the moment.

My goodness Faith, sounds like these folks are downright bullying and trying to intimidate you. That would be enough right there to say he has been removed from the team due to inadequate participation, damn the consequences. The rocket team alone cannot be this boy's salvation. Heck, if he skips the trip he'll have even more time to finish up his academic work. So hey, you'd actually be doing him a favor! I absolutely would say no in part to let parents know that you cannot be bullied.

 

Also, I wouldn't put this on the shoulders of the other team members. They have enough to work in for the next month without clouding the issue. Just let them know he will not be going and they will need a strategy to compensate for his absence.

[TechWife]

What do the other team members think? Would they vote on allowing him to complete 50% of the remaining practices and stay on the team?

..

I hope you're not saying they should vote on this. Kids this age do not possess the capacity for a decision like this - I earnestly believe it would turn into a popularity contest. It is definitely within the rights of the team sponsors/coaches/team organizers to make this decision.

[Danestress]

How about this:

You write out a letter for all the parents telling them about the trip. 

 

In it you itemize expected expenses for the trip  -  write out what the whole thing is likely to cost for each "included" item - bus, hotel, food etc.  Then if there are "incidentals" that kids need to bring money for, suggest amounts. 

 

Tell them what the total expected cost "per kid" of the included expenses will be.  Let them know whether any of this can be opted in or out of.  So if parents want to come and get a hotel suite for themselves and their kid, can they opt out of the hotel portion?  Or not?  If parents want to drive their kid,  can they opt out of the bus fee?  Or not?  Are team members expected to stay together, sleep together, eat together, or can families sort of do their own thing outside of competition?  Just be clear about the rules and clear about the economics.  If it's OK to drive yourself, but you still have to cover your portion of a bus rental, make that clear.

 

Then write out the upcoming fundraisers kids can participate in to earn some of that money.  Perhaps if they don't participate, it's fine.  Can they pay out of pocket if they choose?  Tell them that whatever isn't earned, the parents do have to pay TO YOU by a certain date.  So if expected costs are $800 per child, each parent will need to pay  you $800 minus whatever fundraising credit they have.  Just be clean how fundraising will be allotted - Ie for each event, the money will be split evenly between participants in that particular event. 

 

Be clear about how this is going to work.  If a parent doesn't pay the balance by a certain date, what happens?  If three parents don't pay it, can you still go as a team, or will you have to forfeit?  Is there any grace period or any exception?  Just make sure the same rules apply to everyone.  Do you have an alternative list of kids you can draw from if some of the team fails? 

Also lay out the other things required in order to participate - the practice attendance requirements, paperwork, etc.  Be clear about the expectations and the consequences. 

 

Make sure everyone understand the requirements for the team as a whole.  How many kids actually need to come through and meet all the requirements in order for the team to travel?  If a few fail, can you still go?  If you can't go without those kids, are you willing to bend?  Think hard about how this will really work if a couple of kids don't meet your requirements.

 

I personally think you should stop worrying about why this kid can't come to practices or arrive before Friday.  I wouldn't really care if it's because he is lazy or has been in trouble - that is his and his parent's business and mostly a private matter.  It doesn't really matter WHY he can't be there until Friday.  You need to just set the rules and enforce them.  If you can survive arrival on Friday rather than Wednesday, then make the rule that people must arrive by Friday at 6:00 and then don't concern yourself with what the reasons are.  If you can't manage unless he comes on Wednesday, make the deadline Wednesday, and let his parents deal with making that happen or let them know now that it won't work so that someone else can take his place.  Just handle it in a very business like way.  It's not your problem that his parents are idiots or that his behavior at school is inappropriate.  Your job is to have a team in DC ready to participate and win.  Let them know what has to happen for their kid to be on that team.

 

I personally would not let anything about his circumstances set him apart from the other kids.  If he gets there on time fully paid, then he's part of the team and I would not limit his activities in anyway.  If he can't be there on time or can't pay, then leave him behind.  Don't take a kid who has not met the requirements, and if a kid HAS met the requirements, let the rest of it go. 

 

Would that work?  I feel for you. Putting something like this together is a huge amount of work, and what a pain that this family is making it so difficult.

[maize]

When I was a teenager I always participated in fundraisers for groups I belonged to even if the fundraiser was for an event or trip I could not participate in. Every member contributes to the team.

 

I wish my kids could be on your team, it sounds like you are teaching some amazing lessons, not just in rocketry.

[Miss Mousie]

 But, the fact remains there is a lot of work that has to happen in the 32 days and they are saying he will do NOTHING, and demanding we still let him go. I think that's the really problem I have...they won't even discuss a compromise. We are just simply to look the other way.

 

I think being sworn at when I was being VERY professional in my calm, politically correct teacher voice, put me over the edge.

 

Huh.  Okay, forget everything I said upthread.  Dump the whole family.  You don't need this mess.  You can wish the boy well privately, or just send up good thoughts for him from time to time.

[zoobie]

I hope you're not saying they should vote on this. Kids this age do not possess the capacity for a decision like this - I earnestly believe it would turn into a popularity contest. It is definitely within the rights of the team sponsors/coaches/team organizers to make this decision.

Voting may not be the right tactic, but the kids should have some kind of a say if they're going to be taking on part or all of his workload. The adult leaders can be very persuasive in their presenting the issue, but they are high schoolers? Nearly adults and have put their hearts and souls in the team too.

 

Faith, after your additional info that the parents cursed you and DH out, I would be tempted to dismiss the family altogether. If for some reason you do let him stay on, outline parental behavior expectations. Maybe all communication needs to be in writing? That's ridiculous to expect you to put up with abuse!

[FaithManor]

I agree.  (I think.  :p)

 

The boy is 15 now - if he stops participating for this year, would he be eligible to participate next year?  I mean, do people "age out" at 16, 17, 18?  I'm not sure it matters, but I do feel (in a wishy-washy sort of way) that, if next year is a possibility, then I'd cut him now and hope he learns and matures by then (and his parents, too).  Then he will have another shot at "making it right" and earning his share of the spotlight at whatever levels the team achieves.  I guess it seems it would soften the blow and put the focus back on the boy taking responsibility for himself for the duration.

 

Back to the fundraising/participation split:  I'm inclined to ignore the fundraising issue entirely and focus only on the lack of participation.  Missing meetings/presentations etc. - and especially the thank you notes! - is enough to cut him from the team.

 

On the other hand, those expenses still need to be met.  Would it be possible to recalculate what each participant needs to contribute?  Are there enough participants that it would only amount to an extra $10 or so, or would it be an onerous amount added because there are only 5 or 10 kids?

 

Sigh.  No good deed, eh?  I hope the situation is resolved quickly in some acceptable manner, as peaceably as possible.

There are 7 team members and they need to raise the cost of the their team mentors (dh and I), and my dad as the third driver - also owner of the other van.) It takes two vans to go because some of the seats in one has to be removed for the launch stand (seven feet long, solid steel, tripod adjustable feet...it takes up a LOT of room), and the rockets, field gear, etc. So only four people can ride in that van. In the other, we put our luggage and the other team members and driver. The hotel is allowing the team to stay free because they are all under 18, so since we have a lot of boys, the loss of one doesn't lower our hotel costs. It doesn't change the amount of gas or tolls either. But, again, I could just make them contribute 1/7 of the trip budget and opt out of that. But, here is the rub, all three major fundraisers have been billed out as including the team presentation. He is now dumping his portion of the team presentation onto the other payload section member who will do that alone...three slides he'll have to memorize and talk through instead of one plus another part that he was helping with so that kid is being stuck with A LOT. The first night they were to present is the 14th. On top of which, the next event on the 24th included not only the presentation BUT the team assisting with activities for students at the Warren Tech Center. Because he got in trouble at school, his permission to miss in order to attend was rescinded. So, while I can let the parents pay or buy out participation in actual fundraising, the reality is he's dumping responsibilities NOT related to money onto the other kids due to his own unfortunate choices.

 

That is where the real trouble comes.

 

I think that ultimately, we are going to have to put him off the team now and let him suffer the consequences even though, tragically, this is the thing that is going well in his life. However, since all of you have brought up a lot of valid perspectives and DH and I need to be make sure we approach this in the right frame of mind, we need to sleep on it and contact the parents tomorrow. That and, make sure we have consumed enough coffee to get us through it! ;)

 

One thing I will say is that he is one of those kids who COULD, if he put his mind to it, get a lot of his work done rapidly. He learns very quickly; he's very sharp. But, man is he lazy about whatever the school wants him to do. He puts in the work for the team and for his 4-H science fair projects. He knows how to work. His woodworking is absolutely GORGEOUS! He just simply wants to get away with NOT doing what is required of the other students in his school, and with his parents backing him up, he's been able to get away with it for far too long!

 

Someone made the suggestion that we tie participation to grades. As a 4-H club, we can't do that. Schools can require that, but we can not. Plus, grades are private. We know about his problems at the school because his parents have volunteered the information, and asked me to be in on a conference call with the principal first thing this morning. Of course her first tactic was that she wanted me to plead that the boy be a special case and NOT have to make up the work because it harms the team, and he's so integral. Nope...sorry honey. We want him to be there. The reality is we don't allow anyone on the team to be so vital to the success that everything falls apart if that person quits. That would be like a football team that had no back up quarterback on the bench! When that didn't work - and I probably made her mad because I did not fall in step with that - she wanted the principal to wheel and deal on the amount of work so I got to hear that conversation, UGH! Should have hung up, but the principal kept wanting to chat about the rocket team, and the mom kept asking me questions, and I was trying not to end up with everything escalated to a crazy blow out at a 4-H council meeting. He wouldn't wheel and deal, so then when I asked what this all meant in terms of his team participation and the answer was, "He's not participating in anything because the principal says he has to get this done and now he won't have time. But, you ARE letting him go to competition!" well, my brain twitched very hard. I told her we needed to talk about this because he does have responsibilities, her response was to hang up on me.

 

Normally, I ADORE our 4-H volunteer work. Today, I can honestly say, she made me think I'm getting too old for this! Put, I'll get over it because I do love what we do.

[FaithManor]

Voting may not be the right tactic, but the kids should have some kind of a say if they're going to be taking on part or all of his workload. The adult leaders can be very persuasive in their presenting the issue, but they are high schoolers? Nearly adults and have put their hearts and souls in the team too.

 

Faith, after your additional info that the parents cursed you and DH out, I would be tempted to dismiss the family altogether. If for some reason you do let him stay on, outline parental behavior expectations. Maybe all communication needs to be in writing? That's ridiculous to expect you to put up with abuse!

Zoobie, she will be hearing from the 4-H program coordinator. It's a violation of 4-H parent/member behavior rules. So, there is a very good chance he won't be allowed to participate next year unless they agree to a special behavior contract and adhere to it.

 

The dad and the boy are very pleasant people. Really, the boys is just....a smart doofus...does that make sense. I'm not trying to be insulting per se just to make a word picture that you can understand. The dad is very easy going. The mom is driving force in everything and intends on being a "force to be reckoned with" as the saying goes.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I thought offering a buyout option, as long as he came to enough practices, was reasonable until I read about the parents yelling at you, along with his multi-year history of causing trouble at school. Now I think it's time to kick him off the team and see if someone else with a better attitude wants to take his place this year or next year.

[Harriet Vane]

As one who has organized many, many large group events and programs:

 

Dump this family.

 

Do not work with a family who swears at you and speaks to you this way.

 

Do not work with anyone who will not make an honest attempt at fulfilling the team requirements.

 

No debates, no elaborate discussions. Just end it.

 

Send the kid a note privately encouraging him in what he has done well.

[catz]

Zoobie, she will be hearing from the 4-H program coordinator. It's a violation of 4-H parent/member behavior rules. So, there is a very good chance he won't be allowed to participate next year unless they agree to a special behavior contract and adhere to it.

 

The dad and the boy are very pleasant people. Really, the boys is just....a smart doofus...does that make sense. I'm not trying to be insulting per se just to make a word picture that you can understand. The dad is very easy going. The mom is driving force in everything and intends on being a "force to be reckoned with" as the saying goes.

As the parent of a smart doofus, there's a time when a kid needs to suffer some natural consequences of their actions or lack there of. Yes, it's unfortunate he can't be on the team, but he may learn some very important life lessons by getting dropped from the team. The rest of the team mates may get some important lessons in contingency planning.

 

I'm completely appalled this parent took the time to get you on a conference call with the principal of the school. WAY beyond a volunteer parent's pay grade and outrageously presumptuous of her. Mom sounds like a real prize. I'm very sorry you had to deal with this!

[FaithManor]

And I do also need to say that we've had this family in our 4-H club for six years and while she has never been a peach to work with, we've always been able to deal with his impulsivity both at regular club meetings and on the team and worked with her tough not always easy. This is the first that we've really to deal with something so bad from her, or choices he's made that are so severe that they have ripples into his 4-H activities. I don't want to paint this as us being longsuffering and having nothing but trouble for years on end. It's not that at all. Which makes this even a little more maddening. Maybe she has something going on personally that makes her unwilling to be reasonable or unable to see our perspective, though I can't let that thought influence our decision either.

[FaithManor]

As the parent of a smart doofus, there's a time when a kid needs to suffer some natural consequences of their actions or lack there of. Yes, it's unfortunate he can't be on the team, but he may learn some very important life lessons by getting dropped from the team. The rest of the team mates may get some important lessons in contingency planning.

 

I'm completely appalled this parent took the time to get you on a conference call with the principal of the school. WAY beyond a volunteer parent's pay grade and outrageously presumptuous of her. Mom sounds like a real prize. I'm very sorry you had to deal with this!

Uhm...yah...way beyond the call of duty. I probably should not have agreed, but I am a softy for kids in the area because our schools are really, really bad and some of them do end up behind due to NOT getting attention, tutoring, clarification, etc  that they need. So, I kind of wanted to know exactly how bad it was. Had this been one subject, and in particular a math or a science, I would have volunteered for him to come here after school and tutored him. It was pure...just simply not willing to do the work. He let everything snowball and my guess is he honestly thought he'd get away with it because as I've said before, the parents defend him in everything. We do well dealing with him. Others not so much because he is used to being given and inch and taking a mile. I think that he has a natural personality that requires stiff boundaries written in stone, and she enables him to get out of A LOT of stuff. But, she also babies the ever living life out of him, and so he is much less mature than the other teens in our club and on the team, and probably in comparison to his classmates. She isn't doing him any favors.

[idnib]

I would probably cut him loose for this year and invite him back for next season. That way he gets consequences and the parents don't bully you. But he's not completely cut out of this beneficial activity and he can look forward to trying again, which might help his state of mind. 

[PrairieSong]

If his parents were even decent, "Mr. and Mrs. H. This is the situation. He made this for himself, but we need some assistance in helping him see his way out. IF he could manage his work and at least do X or Y for the team, could he still go so he has an incentive to work hard?", we'd definitely consider it. However, if you heard the tone of voice and the language used on us, you'd probably ALL be mad. These people believe their boy is the special, misunderstood, genius snowflake of the world and that NO rules should apply to him. So, this isn't a matter of them even attempting to work on the issue at hand with us. This is a "We demand X. You can not expect us or him to do ANYTHING. And you us do what we want because we are that special!" kind of thing.

 

<snip>

 

But, the fact remains there is a lot of work that has to happen in the 32 days and they are saying he will do NOTHING, and demanding we still let him go. I think that's the really problem I have...they won't even discuss a compromise. We are just simply to look the other way.

It is obvious that you care about this boy, and even considered tutoring him! However, after reading the above, it seems clear that these people are not going to work with you. They are not going to compromise. Their son should not have to do anything else and should still be allowed to go to the national competition while others do all the work, and take up the slack for him. And the mother is trying to bully you into doing it her way. No. No no no.

 

I'm sorry this boy chose to slack off in school and to cause trouble. It's too bad but it's not your fault! The answer seems clear to me.

[QuirkyKapers]

The mom hung up and swore at you and has made it clear that they won't help in anyway with the participation. So very rude. A couple thoughts: Can you just have that family get their own hotel room in order to have their son participate since they didn't help with fundraising?  Also, would the boy be able to help in anyway to make up for not helping with fundraising?  Like serve the team in some way? Can he prepare slides or posters for the presentation part so he is contributing?   I just keep thinking about the poor kid who now has more work to do because the other kid can't come when originally planned because of his choices. Isn't there a policy like, if you can't be there the entire time with the team then you can't come at all?  Does it really benefit the team for him to be coming late? 

 

Overall, my vote would be no. Can't come. Sorry.  Not only did the family not help fundraise, the boy can't help with the presentation part due to bad choices and the mom hung up and swore at you.  Three strikes.  You're out.  

[Bambam]

Does your state 4-H have a published list of Consequences of Misbehavior or Code of Conduct? TX has one here - http://texas4-h.tamu.edu/publications (under enrollment forms)

 

So, the state has a specific list of which offensives are considered minor, intermediate, and major.

 

But with a parent using offensive language on the phone and saying that the rules don't apply to her child, I think I'd be inclined to say in that case, her child was no longer on my team.

 

Sounds like a very sad situation for the boy and your team as well. Best of luck in getting it all sorted out.

 

 

[Catwoman]

Everyone else has already given all of the ideas and advice I could have possibly come up with, but I keep coming back to one little part of the OP that stood out to me, and I have to know...

 

Does the kid's mom really still cut his meat for him? :svengo:

 

I'm really hoping you were joking about that, Faith!!! :D

[WishboneDawn]

I don't know for certain what the kids would say. At this point his parents are saying absolutely NO to any participation from this point forward and demanding that he still be allowed to go to the competition.

 

The whole thing is a mess really. One scenario that has run through my head is that IF he simply becomes a ghost and we say "NO, he can not compete. Don't bring him to D.C. because we aren't going to give him his credentials to get onto the field", then he may not choose to do any of the work required of him by the school and will simply get expelled. Again, not our problem, but I don't like to see teens in holes they have no incentive to get out of, yet, I can't stop that ship from sailing either. If his parents were even decent, "Mr. and Mrs. H. This is the situation. He made this for himself, but we need some assistance in helping him see his way out. IF he could manage his work and at least do X or Y for the team, could he still go so he has an incentive to work hard?", we'd definitely consider it. However, if you heard the tone of voice and the language used on us, you'd probably ALL be mad. These people believe their boy is the special, misunderstood, genius snowflake of the world and that NO rules should apply to him. So, this isn't a matter of them even attempting to work on the issue at hand with us. This is a "We demand X. You can not expect us or him to do ANYTHING. And you us do what we want because we are that special!" kind of thing.

 

I think ultimately, they also do not want him to get expelled from the private school, sensing that next year at the PS would be downright ugly for them. So, no matter what, they want him to get his projects turned in and his truckload of homework made up in the hopes of weaseling the administration into letting him stay though he has been on academic and disciplinary probation every year since 6th grade (which makes me think that if the parent is willing to pay tuition, they turn a real blind eye to things because I know of no other private school that allows a student to be on disciplinary probation for four straight years). Thus, the no participation in rocket team, and yet wanting to have all of the perks of being on the rocket team and this really is perk end of things. It is the reward for the hard work for and dedication for the teams that stuck it out. Of the original 707 teams that began the year, only 413 made it to the end, and of those, the top 100 proceed to Finals. It is the happy, happy fun fun that CAN happen for those lucky 100 teams. I really get that he doesn't want to miss out on that, and obviously, no one would want for their child to miss out on it. But, the fact remains there is a lot of work that has to happen in the 32 days and they are saying he will do NOTHING, and demanding we still let him go. I think that's the really problem I have...they won't even discuss a compromise. We are just simply to look the other way.

 

I think being sworn at when I was being VERY professional in my calm, politically correct teacher voice, put me over the edge. I handed the phone to Dh, and she went off on him. It's not helping me think about all sides of the problem equally! LOL, I'll give you that! My perspective is probably not the best at the moment.

Your perspective is perfect.

 

He can't do the work.

They won't help fundraise.

They are abusive to you.

They actively hurt the progress of the team (pulling out son and leaving other child to do work his own).

 

Their continued presence will be stressful for you and possibly for every other student and parent involved with this.

 

The reason for not cutting him loose is what?

 

I, Supreme Poobah of All That is Right and True, command you to dump this family.

[FaithManor]

What is the existing team policy for absences?

 

Does he want to be on the team, or is his mother the push?

 

With our scout group, and the boys' school courses, it is expected that the group plan for the circumstance that a group member is absent. Usually when a kid is out, he sends his slides and notes to his backup, explaining his slides. Haven't had anyone who was so far into flu or whatever that they couldn't do that.   

 

What has the young man proposed as his solution? Would you accept a proposal (from him) of work hard, pay for his share, and miss this one event (provided he gives his slides/talk to the backup fellow) if he could convince you that he has learned his lesson? 

I am willing to look at proposals from him. However, she has made it clear that it will be her way or the highway. Since he can not drive and lives 9 miles from here on side roads not worthy of biking, he is dependent on his parents for transportation and even if another family lived near them - which they do not...he's the opposite direction of everyone else - she made it clear that he's not participating, but she expects he gets to compete. I think in her not particularly clear mind, she is drawing a line in the sand with him. "You can't participate until you get everything caught up at school." That would be good....it puts the responsibility on him to get it all done, and fast. However, since there is no consequence...ie. competition, it's really just for show. Why put in any work? Why be responsible to the team if I can get away with NOT doing it and still get to go to Washington D.C. or in the case of last week, go to Disney World.

 

She is the driving force behind there being no middle ground.

 

If he wanted to step up to the plate and be responsible, if he were willing to own his problems, that would be a different story. I think she is a cat backed into a corner and has come out with claws. She's convinced he has to go to the Christian school or something awful will happen to him - she is very dramatic about a lot of things. He is on the verge of being kicked out. She naturally wants him to get all of his work done and does not want distractions or interruptions. She is also determined that he not suffer any consequences for his choices. She appears to be someone who has always gotten her way, and is not used to anyone standing up to her or stating that her special child is not the exception to the rule. So the principal stood up and said no, and I said that she should be prepared that my husband and I would have to discuss his eligibility to compete with the team, and BAM...Mrs. Nasty came rearing her head. I don't think she is used to people not bending for her or her child.

 

As for existing team policy, he's had good enough attendance up to now, though not perfect. But, we don't have that kind of expectation anyway no one can make everything. Okay, with the exception of DH and I because we HAVE to be there, LOL!  However, if he misses all six practice launches, the presentations, and the team meetings preparing for our departure, then his attendance will have fallen below the original agreement which all of the team members and parents signed at the beginning. So, I can trot out the attendance statement from back in September.

[FaithManor]

Your perspective is perfect.

 

He can't do the work.

They won't help fundraise.

They are abusive to you.

They actively hurt the progress of the team (pulling out son and leaving other child to do work his own).

 

Their continued presence will be stressful for you and possibly for every other student and parent involved with this.

 

The reason for not cutting him loose is what?

 

I, Supreme Poobah of All That is Right and True, command you to dump this family.

Supreme Poobah! I love your comments!

 

Concise..to the point. Short of this boy approaching us with great regret and a plan for how he can make good on his end of the responsibilities, and humble pie from his mother and a plan from HER on how she is going to proceed as a nice and decent parent contributing to the success of this team, then yep...I think he'll be bounced. IF enough humble pie were eaten, in order to keep the one good thing going in his life open to him for now and to keep the team together, we'd definitely consider options. She does not strike me as the kind of woman who apologizes and asks for mercy. I think she is the kind of person who is, in her mind, never, ever wrong.