Duggar article-20 year old daughter courting

[unsinkable]

What, I'm at 5,000? Ok then, pass the beer too! I'll need some to go with these beer nuts. :cheers2:

Sláinte!

[UmMusa]

I've missed so many shows that I'm happy to read this!  Good for them. 

[Prairie~Phlox]

We are around quite a few people that "courted" and are now married. I have the same hope for my children, that they search for their life partner and not be physically involved until they are married, I pray all the time for their future spouses and what God should have for their lives. If someone thinks I'm wrong, so be it. Everyone does what tgey think is best for their families.

[happi duck]

That's my question. Is their wedding night their first unmonitored conversation, their first kiss and their first sexual experience?? Big night!!

No pressure! :)

[Mom-ninja.]

What is a beer nut?

[emzhengjiu]

What is a beer nut?

 

Thank you for asking.  I want to know what they are as well.  I was distracted from courtship by beer nuts.  This is probably a good thing.

[kitten18]

Yes this. With what is happening in the rest of the world, this is news.

No, this is not news, this is entertainment.

[Mom2Es]

I can't hear beer nuts mentioned without remembering that scene in Gilmore Girls where Rory can't stop herself from blabbing about the urine mints.

[Janie Grace]

Sure, we'd prefer that our kids spent time with the opposite sex in an intentional, God-glorifying way. But what people here might not understand is that the Duggars' family culture, including courtship, is not the same as a "we like courtship," Josh Harris-inspired, conservative family. The Duggars are Gothardites, which means they are enslaved to a very complicated program of legalism, and no, their daughters cannot just leave. 

[Tangerine]

It was so long ago, and I don't think about it much, but sometimes I look at myself now, and myself when I worked at the Gothard headquarters with many a Duggaresque girl, and I STILL have almost no understanding of how these girls think.  I guess they didn't get me young enough.

[LucyStoner]

I've eaten beer nuts and I still really have no idea what they are. Little salty crunchy thingies is the best I've got.

[shawthorne44]

I don't find it that odd.  For them and their beliefs to do otherwise would be odd.  It doesn't match what I did.  But to each their own. 

[TechWife]

What is a beer nut?

 

It's a peanut with some kind of seasoned coating on it. Here's a link to the original Beer Nut company. 

[SunnyDays]

Well, at least their first meeting didn't involve a ring exchange.

*That* leaves me speechless.

 

 

Courtship, as a general concept, can be a good thing... A young person, in conjunction with his/her family, decides that they're looking for a potential life mate, not just dating for fun. I think that can be lovely if its done in a healthy manner.

 

I have no reason to dislike the Duggars, and I wish them all well. But I find it overbearing.

 

It's clearly nothing, though, compared to Xuzi's link where the fathers orchestrated the whole thing, and betrothed their grown children to each other at their first meeting.

[KungFuPanda]

Why does it only have to be considered normal if you are letting your teenagers (and young adults) run loose and get in trouble? I guess that is better, sure.. I guess I get it now. But I really don't.

I think the abnormality is in treating an adult like a child. She's 20, not 15. She's been a legal adult for two years and she's not "allowed" to have a private conversation?

[Joanne]

I think the abnormality is in treating an adult like a child. She's 20, not 15. She's been a legal adult for two years and she's not "allowed" to have a private conversation?

 

 

I wouldn't do that to a 15 year old, either.

[Tangerine]

Yes. She could walk out and can get an education. The older girls, Janna and the other one...maybe her, have continuing education. Janna is studying and working as a doula/Montrice and the other girl has advanced midwifery education. She does a pretty decent business actually and midwifery training is NO easy thing. It requires loooong days of biology and physiology.

 

Anyway, as to courtship...it's quite common in our circle of friends. Dh and I did not, and to be honest I've always been a little sad about that.

Unless things have changed since I worked there, we are talking about lay midwifery. Not a CNM. They are not going to college and getting advanced certifications. Not that I think that is what you're implying, just being clear about their options.

[Joanne]

Why does it only have to be considered normal if you are letting your teenagers (and young adults) run loose and get in trouble?  I guess that is better, sure.. I guess I get it now.  But I really don't.

 

 

False dichotomy. The choices aren't extreme, age inappropriate intrusion or "run loose and get in trouble."

[Halftime Hope]

Well, at least their first meeting didn't involve a ring exchange.

 

 

It's pretty easy to find a picture of the event.   It's not what I would choose, but then again, I've had my turn to make my choice, so who am I to criticize.

[KungFuPanda]

I wouldn't do that to a 15 year old, either.

Me neither, but at 15 it looks more like strict parenting and less like creepy, cultish behavior.

[maize]

I have seen arranged marriages (in other cultures) work well. I have seen them not work well. I have seen both successful and miserable non-arranged marriages. I don't think there is one best way to choose a life's companion. My children will choose their own spouses because that is the culture my family functions within. I honestly don't know if it is best or not.

[goldberry]

Since I believe in sexual relations only within the marraige arrangement, I believe in dating as looking for a marraige mate (not casual fun), and chaperones as the best choice for avoiding temptation.  I don't, however, believe that parents should be involved in the dating decisions of their adult children.

 

So although I'm very conservative about that subject, I guess that means I don't agree with the "courtship" model.  Parents can guide and advise, but the decision as to who to date and under what circumstances, belongs to the adult.  I would happily give my adult daughter advice and opinions (if asked hopefully) but I would never presume it was my responsibility to "find her a husband" or "choose her husband".

 

That said, I've seen that the Duggars seem relatively healthy and happy.  Everybody's got a least a little dysfunction in their lives, and from the outside it seems their dysfunction is not any more harmful than anybody elses.

[ajfries]

DH & I "courted". And by that I mean we had marriage in mind & were usually in group settings or in public. He was 24 & I was...19? Interestingly enough he happened to still live at home with his parents & I lived on my own. I wouldn't say that either of our families had overreaching say in our relationship, though. I had dated a fair amount before & never had a "chaste" relationship prior to DH, but he & I did wait until we were married to have sex. I'm happy with the decisions we made and hope my kids decide the same for themselves...but it will have to be their choice. It's their relationship after all; both with their partner & with their God, and the benefits & consequences will be their own, too.

[NicAnn]

Unless things have changed since I worked there, we are talking about lay midwifery. Not a CNM. They are not going to college and getting advanced certifications. Not that I think that is what you're implying, just being clear about their options.

That maybe so, but she is still spending a great deal of time educating herself, seeing clients, and furthering her education. I don't know if she is getting the education from college courses, but I don't think it matters. Midwifery on any level is extremely time consuming and requires a great deal of intellegence. Even Jana becoming a doula requires a lot of intellegence and self education.

[LucyStoner]

Being a doula on paper does not require a lot of education. I could get my doula certificate next weekend if I wanted to. I am not trashing doulas (a lot of my best friends are doulas! ;) ) but a doula certificate is not a hard thing to earn in the places I am familiar with.

 

I don't dispute that they are smart girls. I do dispute that they have full access to higher education. Clearly they do not. Though, it doesn't seem the boys have either to be perfectly fair.

[Mrs Mungo]

That's my question. Is their wedding night their first unmonitored conversation, their first kiss and their first sexual experience?? Big night!!

 

Indeed!

 

Only a fool would be unaware of the "right" things to put in those texts in order to please Jim Bob.  So to begin, I don't know how she's supposed to get to know the "real" person.  

 

I can't imagine having my important decisions and vulnerable matters of young love (young like? young sermon-recommendation texting?) be turned into a tourist attraction.

 

I agree with both of these lines. I knew lots of girls who dated guys who were fine in front of the parents, but actually abusive in private. How can you know what a guy is REALLY like, if you're never alone with him until after marriage?

 

And I agree about it all being for publicity's sake.

 

That maybe so, but she is still spending a great deal of time educating herself, seeing clients, and furthering her education. I don't know if she is getting the education from college courses, but I don't think it matters. Midwifery on any level is extremely time consuming and requires a great deal of intellegence. Even Jana becoming a doula requires a lot of intellegence and self education.

That's not the point that was being made. The point was that the girls have their choices artificially limited by their parents.

[Mrs Mungo]

Being a doula on paper does not require a lot of education. I could get my doula certificate next weekend if I wanted to. I am not trashing doulas (a lot of my best friends are doulas! ;) ) but a doula certificate is not a hard thing to earn in the places I am familiar with.

I am going to have to disagree. DONA is the biggest certifying organizing of which I am aware. They require a lot of reading, papers, a certain number of births as an assistant, etc before you can be certified.

 

I don't dispute that they are smart girls. I do dispute that they have full access to higher education. Clearly they do not. Though, it doesn't seem the boys have either to be perfectly fair.

I do agree with this.

[NicAnn]

Being a doula on paper does not require a lot of education. I could get my doula certificate next weekend if I wanted to. I am not trashing doulas (a lot of my best friends are doulas! ;) ) but a doula certificate is not a hard thing to earn in the places I am familiar with.

 

I don't dispute that they are smart girls. I do dispute that they have full access to higher education. Clearly they do not. Though, it doesn't seem the boys have either to be perfectly fair.

To become a certified doula one needs to attend a workshop, usually 2-3 days of 8-12 hours. Then attend 3-6 births depending on the organization ( one requires 12), births which need to be evaluates by 3 people (dr, nurse, mother), complete a reading list of several books, write an essay, and continue your education every year. This cannot be done in a weekend. I know of no certifying organization with fewer requirements. DONA, Cappa, and ToLabor are the most respected if anyone cares to look into it for themselves.

[Tangerine]

When I worked there, I worked for a health newsletter. We had articles on becoming a lay midwife apprentice. We also had articles on how the meaning of your Cabbage Patch Kid's name (Bill is way into name meanings) could bring health problems upon you. Ah, yeah. That was a quality publication. (Tangerine- midwife user for the record.)

[LucyStoner]

I am going to have to disagree. DONA is the biggest certifying organizing of which I am aware. They require a lot of reading, papers, a certain number of births as an assistant, etc before you can be certified.

 

 

I do agree with this.

 

 

The Simkin Center is near me and one of the best regarded options in the field nationwide.  It qualifies you to pay and check the boxes via DONA or PALS.  (Simkin Center is now a program at Bastyr but was founded previously by Penny Simkin).  Doulas require a short lactation class plus a 27 hour class now.  10 years ago, that was two days- that is what our doula did and what most of my friends did as well.  They also now require reading 3 books selected by the student from a list for the class and about 4 more for the certification.  3 births or 3 sessions aiding a family pp (depending on type of doula certification) Even with the reading time, that is equivalent maybe 1 15 credit quarter of community college.  It's nothing approaching the requirements to get a nurse midwife degree or to get an MS direct entry midwife degree from Bastyr- which requires a BA first.  I totally understated how fast it would be to get the whole certification (it's ever changing) but the class is a compact 4 day workshop, not a long process.  

 

ETA: As I understand it, in my state, being a nursing assistant or medical assistant are all either just below or just above that in training hours.  

[hillfarm]

Yea. In a quiverful family who is part of the competitive culture of seeing how many times you can breed and call it god inspired.

 

Yea. The women have strictly and traditionally women's jobs in conceiving, gestating, and delivering more babies.

 

I've hired the services of midwives. I believe in the midwifery model. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know why none of the Duggar girls will be a rocket scientist.

 

This is rude, judgemental and condescending. You don't know these girls nor do you know the exact details of their education or intelligence. You insult not only them, but a number of other women who are happy in their choices and just doing their best to live their lives the way they choose. Many women who participate in the Quiverfull tradition do not consider it any type of competition. And I personally know several women who live that lifestyle that are not restricted to jobs "conceiving, gestating, and delivering more babies". I am truly astounded that it is considered acceptable here to describe another culture the way you have done.

 

I am an evangelical Christian, but not part of a church that emphasizes the belief in courtship. However, I would never denigrate the sincerely held beliefs of other people in this way, even if I don't agree with them. Even when I have serious concerns that their beliefs are inappropriate. Even if I thought their beliefs are just plain wrong. There are respectful ways to express disagreement with the choices made by other human beings, and this is not one of them.

 

I am sure that there are some young women within the Gothard/courtship system who are unhappy or abused. Can you guarantee them that women outside that system never experience those things? Based on the divorce rate and domestic abuse statistics I have seen, these things are not confined exclusively to certain conservative Christian sects.

 

I have seen a couple of courtships that went down in flames and a few that seem to be doing well (3 or 4 years into the marriage). However, I can also say that I have seen a large number of dating relationships end badly and many of them that seem to have worked out well. I lived in Central America for a while and knew several young adults there from well-to-do families that participated in arranged marriages. They didn't seem all that different in terms of satisfaction from the same aged people I knew in the States who dated and married whom ever they chose. None of these systems seem to have a lock on happily ever after. Nor have I seen that any one of them is guaranteed to result in misery or abuse.

[Tangerine]

You don't see anything competitive about renaming a television show every time you have a baby?

[Jean in Newcastle]

You don't see anything competitive about renaming a television show every time you have a baby?

Wouldn't it be kind of strange if they didn't?  

[Free]

You insult not only them, but a number of other women who are happy in their choices and just doing their best to live their lives the way they choose. Many women who participate in the Quiverfull tradition do not consider it any type of competition. And I personally know several women who live that lifestyle that are not restricted to jobs "conceiving, gestating, and delivering more babies". I am truly astounded that it is considered acceptable here to describe another culture the way you have done.

 

Joanne was not referring to the choices made happily by independent thinking women, but to the restrictive choices imposed upon the adult daughters by their parents.

 

I am sure that there are some young women within the Gothard/courtship system who are unhappy or abused. Can you guarantee them that women outside that system never experience those things? Based on the divorce rate and domestic abuse statistics I have seen, these things are not confined exclusively to certain conservative Christian sects.

 

I have seen a couple of courtships that went down in flames and a few that seem to be doing well (3 or 4 years into the marriage). However, I can also say that I have seen a large number of dating relationships end badly and many of them that seem to have worked out well. I lived in Central America for a while and knew several young adults there from well-to-do families that participated in arranged marriages. They didn't seem all that different in terms of satisfaction from the same aged people I knew in the States who dated and married whom ever they chose. None of these systems seem to have a lock on happily ever after. Nor have I seen that any one of them is guaranteed to result in misery or abuse.

You seem to be missing the distinction between a marriage chosen freely (even if unhappy) and a marriage one enters into under coercion.

 

I come from a culture where arranged marriages are the norm. Yes, sure they work. There are even many young couples today in my country who choose arranged marriages freely and happily. Many of my friends have and they are truly happy in their marriages.

 

But focusing on arranged marriages that work just hides the ugly flip side to a system that *expects* adult children allow their parents to make life decisions for them. Let's face it that the real motive behind such a system is the control of one's sexual habits and the unhealthy obsession on sexual purity. This is the kind of system that then looks to control women's choices, clothing, education, career and most importantly women's bodies. This is the kind of system that expects women to conform to traditional gender roles and discourages divorce even in the face of spousal abuse. So really, many of the arranged marriages "that work" are deeply unhappy marriages.

 

I, for one, will always consider a system that encourages freedom and the ability to make independent, even if flawed, choices vastly superior to one in which adults are kept under "loving captivity". I will always prefer a lifestyle that promotes open and honest discussion, and where all ideas are fearlessly examined rather than the one where thoughts are controlled, and beliefs are carefully monitored so as to ensure mindless compliance and conformance.

[DawnM]

I understand what you are saying, and I am in no way pro-Gothard, but they also seem to not be bitter about it.  Many, many Gothardites I meet are just plain mean, angry people.  They lord it over their children and dig their thumbs in to push down.  I don't see that in the Duggars.  Michelle is so sweet and kind and it it is genuine.  I can't say the same for MOST fundies I have met.

 

FWIW:  I am also NOT pro countship, but I do wish my boys to understand that unless they are ready for marriage and truly seeking marriage, girlfriends can be a huge distraction from education and things I think they actually need to pursue to make themselves a good husband.  

 

Dawn

 

 

Sure, we'd prefer that our kids spent time with the opposite sex in an intentional, God-glorifying way. But what people here might not understand is that the Duggars' family culture, including courtship, is not the same as a "we like courtship," Josh Harris-inspired, conservative family. The Duggars are Gothardites, which means they are enslaved to a very complicated program of legalism, and no, their daughters cannot just leave. 

 

[DawnM]

Maybe it should have been called, "20 kids and we will get there eventually!"

 

Wouldn't it be kind of strange if they didn't?  

 

[Heather in Neverland]

I think they are a beautiful family and they have the right to live in a way that they feel is best.

 

Interesting that many on this board espouse that same belief for ALL manner of relationships EXCEPT quiverfull. What happened to the "tolerance" we are supposed to embrace for every other type of lifestyle?

 

Live and let live, right?

[Free]

I think they are a beautiful family and they have the right to live in a way that they feel is best.

 

Interesting that many on this board espouse that same belief for ALL manner of relationships EXCEPT quiverfull. What happened to the "tolerance" we are supposed to embrace for every other type of lifestyle?

 

Live and let live, right?

 

I don't espouse "Live and let live" when there is abuse (not just physical or emotional but intellectual too), oppression or subjugation involved.

 

[kroe1]

I sure wish my parents had taught me, even forced me, into the courtship model.  I would gladly erase all the dating prior to DH.  What a heinous waste of time and risk. 

 

 

[DawnM]

I didn't make really poor decisions in dating really, but I wish I hadn't been so darn concerned about having a boyfriend or being married.

 

Many of my friends got married young and I felt like I would never meet someone.

 

I married at 29, a perfectly fine age to get married and still have kids!

 

Dawn

 

 

I sure wish my parents had taught me, even forced me, into the courtship model.  I would gladly erase all the dating prior to DH.  What a heinous waste of time and risk. 

 

[Heather in Neverland]

I don't espouse "Live and let live" when there is abuse (not just physical or emotional but intellectual too), oppression or subjugation involved.

 

Well I simply disagree with your assessment of the situation as being abuse. Nothing they are doing is illegal.

[Tangerine]

I saw the man across the street haul off and hit his newly four year old son in the head 3 times for crying because he was frustrated trying to catch a ball.  I called the police.  Guess what?  Not illegal. 

[Mom-ninja.]

Ah, no beer nuts for me. Processed on equipment with wheat. I'll have my bag of gf pretzels instead.

[Jennifer3141]

I sure wish my parents had taught me, even forced me, into the courtship model.  I would gladly erase all the dating prior to DH.  What a heinous waste of time and risk. 

 

And I had the opposite experience. I adore most of my past boyfriends and I look back on all of them fondly. I'm grateful for the experiences.

 

There was that one jerk... :laugh:

 

But I'm even grateful for him because 20 years later, he's still a heck of a good story.

[Cinder]

It's a peanut with some kind of seasoned coating on it. Here's a link to the original Beer Nut company. 

 

And it always reminds me of this scene from Cheers.

[Joanne]

That maybe so, but she is still spending a great deal of time educating herself, seeing clients, and furthering her education. I don't know if she is getting the education from college courses, but I don't think it matters. Midwifery on any level is extremely time consuming and requires a great deal of intellegence. Even Jana becoming a doula requires a lot of intellegence and self education.

 

 

"Intelligence" has been mentioned several times by you. I have not questioned the Duggar girls' intelligence (or study habits).

 

I've questioned their actual ability to chose from a wide range of interests. I think it's sad that, in the context of their lives, they are building their adult roles on gestation, childbirth and child-rearing. I think it speaks to a sick system.

[Joanne]

I think they are a beautiful family and they have the right to live in a way that they feel is best.

 

Interesting that many on this board espouse that same belief for ALL manner of relationships EXCEPT quiverfull. What happened to the "tolerance" we are supposed to embrace for every other type of lifestyle?

 

Live and let live, right?

 

 

On the bold: Nope. Certainly "live and let live" is an expression of tolerance and self care to be used selectively as a soon for living. But I don't adopt it as a global world view.

In the subculture of quiverful, I find much dysfunction and oppression and coercion. Given that the Duggars have intentionally, deliberately, and consciously made their life public - and come to rely on it - I see no reason to not discuss the details.

 

Edited to add: FWIW, on the italics, I find disturbing and concerning aspects in other subcultures, too. But Duggar threads are not about those subcultures. And I am not talking strictly about Christian/religious choices.

[Mommee & Baba]

I personally admire this sort of parenting.

 

Our children will have text conversations all monitored through our phones. Cellphones won't be allowed until our children earn their drivers license. Also I won't allow my children to go on dates without myself or my husband. This might seem overly-attached or weird, but I know what dating is like & I wish my parents monitored me from the very beginning!

[Moxie]

I think they are a beautiful family and they have the right to live in a way that they feel is best.

 

Interesting that many on this board espouse that same belief for ALL manner of relationships EXCEPT quiverfull. What happened to the "tolerance" we are supposed to embrace for every other type of lifestyle?

 

Live and let live, right?

Heather, you're living a grand adventure right now. Do you think that one of the unmarried, adult Duggar girls would have been allowed to apply for a teaching job at your school? I think not.

[Joanne]

 

This is rude, judgemental and condescending. You don't know these girls nor do you know the exact details of their education or intelligence. You insult not only them, but a number of other women who are happy in their choices and just doing their best to live their lives the way they choose. Many women who participate in the Quiverfull tradition do not consider it any type of competition. And I personally know several women who live that lifestyle that are not restricted to jobs "conceiving, gestating, and delivering more babies". I am truly astounded that it is considered acceptable here to describe another culture the way you have done.

 

 

I am sure that there are some young women within the Gothard/courtship system who are unhappy or abused. Can you guarantee them that women outside that system never experience those things? Based on the divorce rate and domestic abuse statistics I have seen, these things are not confined exclusively to certain conservative Christian sects.

 

. None of these systems seem to have a lock on happily ever after. Nor have I seen that any one of them is guaranteed to result in misery or abuse.

 

 

First, the Duggars have chosen a public life, using the USA entertainment system. I am not tracking them down, stalking them, or otherwise intruding on a private family. This is a family who is public, in a big way, on purpose.

 

I don't give a "pass" to happy quiverful families or Gothard models. I don't wait for evidence of overt abuse. I think the entire model is oppressive, dysfunctional, and abusive.

I am aware the quiverful families don't "consider it competition". But many who have LEFT the subculture speak to the competitive nature (babies, worship, dress, other areas). Many observers see it.

 

Your mention of divorce and abuse statistics are a red herring to the discussion.

Back to your first paragraph, I do not believe that children, especially women, ARE free to choose when they grow up in that system. I believe it is similar to the partner abuse dynamic - the children are not safe even as adults to *leave* in thought or physically.